What is "Mind?"

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 21281 - 21300 of total 22307 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Feb 17, 2019 - 06:04am PT
This local reality thought matrix was originally engineered as a paradise. However it has been hijacked by cosmic parasites i call the controllers, as a spiritual trap for their purpose of harvesting certain specialized frequencies of spiritual energy.


As Sam Harris said to Deepak Chopra, "That is pure woo"
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Feb 17, 2019 - 08:32am PT
Jan: I prefer the Indian view that all of this is lila, God's play, and that we are just actors on a stage until we wake up. Sometimes we are actors in a drama, sometimes in a comedy, and mostly we don't know where we are.

That’s in the ballpark; I too agree. It’s what I’m seeing. There are different ways to characterize it. Rather than actors, per se, we might also think of the roles we find ourselves in (climber, husband, IT professional, teacher, etc.). There are many roles that we find ourselves in, and to a large extent, we really don’t “choose” any of them. At first we simply thought we’d make this or that decision and do this or that, but before long, we feel the conflict between self and our roles—that our roles demand too much of us.

A psychologist named Katz wrote about “psychological presence.” Basically, he said people are psychologically present when they are authentic. For him, it meant full expression of feelings, thoughts, and beliefs; an integrated whole self that brings depth of a personal self into role performances; and finally, being vulnerable, taking risks, and feeling conflict.

Katz said that authenticity behaviorally arises when an actor does not sacrifice his role(s) for his or her own sense of self, nor his or herself for a role. How is that done? My readings and experience suggest that innovation, adaptation, and improvisation need to be constantly employed for one to be truly authentic, and the literatures in those areas all underline notions of playfulness, engagement, and spontaneity.

It would seem that all of us have well-honed skills in some area or another. When we employ them, we become them, and things “just happen” for us. We are neither portraying our own image of a personalized individualism, nor are we simply actors consciously performing a role.

Full engagement is like flow, and I think most all climbers have stumbled on the experience. I’ve argued the flow experience is what likely drives them on to climbs of higher grades and ratings. Climbers get “addicted” to the feeling of flow, of wu-wei, where there is action without much (or any important) conscious thought. (It’s like a dance.) One feels it. Spontaneity, improvisation, engagement, and playfulness show up without intention or design. One is not “in” the moment; one IS the moment—neither personalized individual self nor an actor performing a role.

Maybe you’re good at math, writing, reading, or systems design, but you are the best at it when you are skillful, loose, and playful. Then you are what you cannot help but be when all of the individual baggage about yourself or what you think of the role has been dropped. Then the “you” shines through. Being yourself implies letting go.

“Being awake” most occurs when one perceives consciousness without content. Thus, the study of mind, which gets no one anywhere other than full engagement with experience qua experience.

Intellectualism in every domain says that it’s a good (even moral) thing to be self-reflective. “That’s what higher consciousness is all about.” The notion of a paradise that existed before Adam and Eve ate the apple points to a time before there was self-reflection. It points to a time of pure instinct and primitive civilization and “being” without guile or guilt. With self-knowledge came sin, according to mythologists. An ironic conundrum.

“Have no desire, and all things will be at peace.
Avoid seeking power, and you will be truly powerful. 
Keep reaching for power, and you’ll never have enough.”

“Do nothing, . . . and nothing will be left undone.
Kind men and women are always doing things, and leaving some things undone.
Just men and women do things, and leave many things undone.
Moral men and women do things, and when no one responds, they use force.”
 
“When people don’t know [the Tao]
They’ll feel the need to create goodness.
When they lose their sense of goodness, they’ll create ethics.
When they lose their sense of ethics, they’ll create ritual.
Ritual is the core of true faith--and the beginning of chaos.”
 
(Tao de Ching)
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 17, 2019 - 11:08am PT
I don't see humans doing anything different from any other dominant species, sort of the definition of dominant species.

At some point the success of the species exceeds the resources required to maintain that success.

This is how equilibrium is maintained.

Perhaps the only difference is that humans are fully capable of seeing this inevitable consequence of their species' success, and are powerless to do anything about it.

paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Feb 17, 2019 - 03:52pm PT
I don't see humans doing anything different from any other dominant species, sort of the definition of dominant species.

I honestly don't understand this. What about smashing atoms and trying to find out how the universe works?
jogill

climber
Colorado
Feb 17, 2019 - 04:02pm PT
MikeL: "'Being awake' most occurs when one perceives consciousness without content. Thus, the study of mind, which gets no one anywhere other than full engagement with experience qua experience."


A very clear answer to a question I have raised with JL a number of times. (I have assumed you refer to meditation as the study of mind.)

Thank you


(I don't suppose you'd like to "unpack" Peter Lynds' paper on time, as well?)

Just kidding
;>)
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Feb 17, 2019 - 04:20pm PT
Perhaps the only difference is that humans are fully capable of seeing this inevitable consequence of their species' success, and are powerless to do anything about it.
I concur and well-said. It reminds of the Star Trek Next Generation episode where an intelligent culture accepts their inevitable doom (a future meteor strike as I remember) and, after determining that they can do nothing about it, decide to spend their last resources on telling their story (via Picard) so they could be remembered.

It's not only climate change with us. It's us (the masters).
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 17, 2019 - 04:59pm PT
“Being awake” most occurs when one perceives consciousness without content.

As someone who has been a meditator, distance swimmer, and climber I get the whole no content flow thing. But I'm also a software person, writer, etc. and I'd disagree with that statement. I can be just as fully in the flow both with and without content - the flow is different between deep levels of intense programming and say distance swimming, but both share a deep perception of consciousness.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 17, 2019 - 07:01pm PT
I honestly don't understand this. What about smashing atoms and trying to find out how the universe works?

a human affectation, what is the use of finding out how the universe works if you cannot apply it to solving the fundamental problem of humans on Earth?

what solution do you have for overpopulation?

we had discovered antibiotics, and pushed back on infection

we discovered the "green revolution" and increased the productivity of farming to feed the ever growing population.

we have understood that our energy production is causing severe changes to the environment, yet we seem loath to give up our conveniences, we've grown accustomed to a particular life style

we have understood that we have been the reason for the collapse of the ocean ecology, but we insist on fishing

we have understood that our waste production is overwhelming the planet, yet we continue our very wasteful ways

and the increased population and the increased standard of living are exacerbating it all... and will result in the same calamity as any other species doing exactly the same thing, dominating the environment and enlarging its population.

with the crash, what good will the knowledge of the smashing atoms be?

one might hope that such technological prowess would save us... but we cannot be saved by ignoring our excesses.
WBraun

climber
Feb 17, 2019 - 07:04pm PT
fundamental problem of humans on Earth?

Is that we don't even belong here.

Earth is a prison for rebellious souls that want to play god ......
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Feb 17, 2019 - 07:17pm PT
Have a look at The Goal of Evolution and the Significance of Consciousness.

In

Philosophy of the Unconscious

Eduard von Hartmann
1842-1906
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 17, 2019 - 09:23pm PT
I grew up within a very conventional American middle class family and educational system, apparently similar to views staunchly defended by several contributors here. My intense lifetime self-directed study program may not impress you, and I certainly make no claims to universal understanding. However I have gradually come to understand that conventionally accepted views of reality have so many gaps and inconsistencies and inadequacies, that it is inappropriate to assume any firm understanding of the basics. Surely only some very nonconventional systems models moving beyond conventionally accepted models will have a chance to explain these gaps, inconsistencies, and inadequacies. The ridiculous failed gyrations of string theory and multiverses seem to reinforce this claim. If you don't like my explorations of the holographic universe and universal consciousness and multiple intelligences, then I'm certainly open to alternatives, which is why I keep tabs on this discussion. Even scientific greats like Hawkins, Sagan and Einstein managed to trip over their own tale. In order to keep your head in the sand, you have to stay on your knees. In an infinite universe, the percentage that we understand is zero
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 17, 2019 - 09:35pm PT
In the old days machines whirred and clicked
Now all you hear is the sound of the air conditioners



Anyway DeepMind has been cycling away

Strongest association discovered to date (don't ask how, it does not know)

ST posting and dementia



TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Feb 17, 2019 - 10:19pm PT
Some supercomputers run on cold plates which are very nearly soundless (I used to be a project manager for the NASA Supercomputer Division, Lol)

Alternate states of mind are generally diagnosed in this society as something wrong or diseased or crazy etc

That might seem appropriate in a society with basic required skill sets of measuring everything in phony money and traveling around driving a heavy fragile high speed vehicle without hitting anything

On the other hand you might judge it crazy to socially require people to account for everything in phony money and drive around in heavy high speed vehicles ... especially while introducing the constant distraction from cell phones


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 18, 2019 - 12:59am PT
TomCochrane wrote: I grew up within a very conventional American middle class family and educational system, apparently similar to views staunchly defended by several contributors here. My intense lifetime self-directed study program may not impress you, and I certainly make no claims to universal understanding. However I have gradually come to understand that conventionally accepted views of reality have so many gaps and inconsistencies and inadequacies, that it is inappropriate to assume any firm understanding of the basics. Surely only some very nonconventional systems models moving beyond conventionally accepted models will have a chance to explain these gaps, inconsistencies, and inadequacies. The ridiculous failed gyrations of string theory and multiverses seem to reinforce this claim. If you don't like my explorations of the holographic universe and universal consciousness and multiple intelligences, then I'm certainly open to alternatives, which is why I keep tabs on this discussion. Even scientific greats like Hawkins, Sagan and Einstein managed to trip over their own tale. In order to keep your head in the sand, you have to stay on your knees. In an infinite universe, the percentage that we understand is zero

At least this was coherent...
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Feb 18, 2019 - 07:33am PT
Jim: Where do humans belong, Werner ?

Some Tibetans argue that one’s reincarnation puts him or her with others who share the same vision of reality. Until liberation, any context constitutes a prison of sort (although that might be a rather cynical way of looking at it). Some students look at school as prisons, also. Comme ci, comme ca.

Tom: Even scientific greats like Hawkins, Sagan and Einstein *managed to trip over their own tale.* [Emphasis added.] 

Great phrase, Tom.
Jim Clipper

climber
Feb 18, 2019 - 07:55am PT
If god has a sense of humor,werner will be reincarnated as an algorithm. He's already proven his immortality here.

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/how_awe_makes_us_generous
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Feb 18, 2019 - 09:09am PT
Healyje: I can be just as fully in the flow both with and without content - the flow is different between deep levels of intense programming and say distance swimming, but both share a deep perception of consciousness.

Sure, you bet.

First of all, I’m only reporting my experiences. I have no access to anything other than that. You too, I should imagine. Your experiences are most likely not mine. Mind / experience can show up as anything. That’s what makes comparing notes so problematical.

Second, Ramesh Balsekar makes a distinction between an operational mind and a discursive mind. It’s the latter that many think blocks truly being in the moment, whereas the former IS being in the moment. I’m not sure that there is a bona fide distinction, but I get what he’s going for.

Jogill: I have assumed you refer to meditation as the study of mind.

Mmmm, I hadn’t thought of it that way when I wrote. The study of the mind these days is simply observing or giving more attention to perception in a raw sort of sense. There is nothing but perception from what I can make out. Being awake / perception / engagement are all the same things for me. I see my thoughts, feelings, and behaviors well up in, and out, of me.

I think I can safely say that my “practice” is now off the pillow. Everything is practice. A practice has no goal, imo. It’s all in the doing, the process, the lived experience, where being gets implemented or transformed into energies. Energies appears to be all there is anyway. (Things are happening all around me!) Everything has an aesthetic taste to it. More style; less achievement. As you might say about climbing, there's beauty in movement, in expression. (Didn’t Edmund Hillary say something like that?)

Meditation is fine. At some point, however, one must leave the classroom and go into the open world with all its rich complexity and messiness. (Admittedly, some of us are dyed-in-the-wool academics and theoreticians, so it can be a challenging path to get onto. It has been for me, as anyone can see.)
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Feb 18, 2019 - 02:04pm PT
a human affectation, what is the use of finding out how the universe works if you cannot apply it to solving the fundamental problem of humans on Earth?

with the crash, what good will the knowledge of the smashing atoms be?

one might hope that such technological prowess would save us... but we cannot be saved by ignoring our excesses.

How is the value of "knowing" contingent on our evolutionary success? It's the same argument that our lives are meaningless because of our species finite nature and our scale relationship to time and space. Knowledge has value in and of itself. The notion that that value is only possible in continued existence or an everlasting state is really just a vestige of the Christian doctrine that nobody here believes in.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Feb 19, 2019 - 03:15pm PT
Hey, so healyje's focus on the instinct/consciousness boundary got me thinking about instinct with a little more focus, and I ran across this. I really do go with Michael Gazzaniga's take on consciousness for the most part.

FACTS SO ROMANTIC ON BIOLOGY
What William James Got Right About Consciousness
POSTED BY MICHAEL S. GAZZANIGA ON FEB 07, 2018

More than 125 years ago, James wrote a landmark article simply titled “What Is an Instinct?” He wastes no time in defining the concept:

Instinct is usually defined as the faculty of acting in such a way as to produce certain ends, without foresight of the ends, and without previous education in the performance…[Instincts] are the functional correlatives of structure. With the presence of a certain organ goes, one may say, almost always a native aptitude for its use. “Has the bird a gland for the secretion of oil? She knows instinctively how to press the oil from the gland, and apply it to the feather.”

The definition seems straightforward, and yet it is cleverly dualistic—an instinct is both a behavior and a physical structure. Yet using the structure calls upon an “aptitude,” which apparently comes along for free. Finding the physical correlates of an instinct is doable, but how do we learn whether a behavior is instinctual? Does it just happen? Not a very scientific answer. Does the bird start out with a reflex to press the oil from the gland and, over time, learn that, as a consequence, everything works better? Clearly if there was no oil gland, there would be no oil and no opportunity for learning to use it to fly better. One can see the blind loop of natural selection and experience working together to form what we would call an instinct.

Bird behavior is one thing, but does this really apply to human cognition and consciousness? James offers a rationale for how it might all work:

A single complex instinctive action may involve successively the awakening of impulses…Thus a hungry lion starts to seek prey by the awakening in him of imagination coupled with desire; he begins to stalk it when, on eye, ear, or nostril, he gets an impression of its presence at a certain distance; he springs upon it, either when the booty takes alarm and flees, or when the distance is sufficiently reduced; he proceeds to tear and devour it the moment he gets a sensation of its contact with his claws and fangs. Seeking, stalking, springing, and devouring are just so many different kinds of muscular contraction, and neither kind is called forth by the stimulus appropriate to the other.

As I look at James’s work now, I recognize a schema that fits the module/layering ideas. James appears to suggest that the structural aspects of instincts are modular. Each instinct can function independently for simple behaviors, but they also work as a confederation. Individual instincts can be sequenced in a coordinated fashion for more complex actions that make them look an awful lot like higher-order instincts, like language, as Steven Pinker argued in The Language Instinct. The avalanche of sequences, I argue, is what we call consciousness. James adds a description of the animal’s experience of obeying an instinct: “Every impulse and every step of every instinct shines with its own sufficient light, and seems at the moment the only eternally right and proper thing to do. It is done for its own sake exclusively.” It sounds like a lot of bubbles are conjoined by the arrow of time and produce something like what we call conscious experience. Each bubble has its own ability to render a feeling about the capacity being expressed at that moment.

I think that we should add instinct to the list of words that are important with respect to mind. My list is now:

* Mind
* Awareness
* Consciousness
* Agency
* Intelligence
* Instinct
* Feeling
* Algorithm/Biochemical algorithm

Biochemical algorithm is a much better term than algorithm with respect to mind in that it incorporates steps in the algorithm that are not purely data-processing, These are in part, chemical -- like producing adrenaline. The basis of feelings has to lie in within this type of algorithm.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Feb 19, 2019 - 03:53pm PT
Following up from my last post, this list is ordered in approximate hierarchical, evolutionary time from youngest to oldest. I agree with Richard Dawkins that the life/not life divide is basically a digital/physical divide.

* Mind
* Awareness
* Consciousness
* Agency
* Intelligence
* Instinct
* Feeling
* Algorithm/Biochemical algorithm
* Life (digital)
* Not life (physical)

It may well be that you really can't separate digital and algorithm/biochemical. They may come as a team -- like Moose and Squirrel.
Messages 21281 - 21300 of total 22307 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
spacerCheck 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

guidebook icon
Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta