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WBraun
climber
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Aug 28, 2018 - 10:17am PT
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Definitions are not etched in stone, immutable for all time.
Non-material ones are .......
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Aug 28, 2018 - 04:21pm PT
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This is not a post.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Aug 28, 2018 - 04:26pm PT
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I would suggest that we make this question easier in order to put participants in one of two categories. If somebody can come up with a third, please let me know.
1. Does mind pre-date organisms?
2. Is mind a product of evolution?
I really don't think that there is a middle ground, but would love to hear other opinions.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Aug 28, 2018 - 04:35pm PT
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JL: "These are subtle waters, not cut and dry, not black and white."
Once again we fall short of the Wizard's erudition.
Life is short
Sad
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Aug 28, 2018 - 05:17pm PT
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That's the spirit, Munge!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Aug 28, 2018 - 05:21pm PT
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eeyonkee, how about higher mind predates organisms who have to evolve to a certain intelligence level before they can perceive it?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 28, 2018 - 05:26pm PT
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Go check out that pigeon or chicken head holding steady (like a gyroscope) despite being shaken around. That, my friends, is control mechanism in action. Construction. By engineering means? no. By evolutionary means over millions of years? yes. Wonderous. Our mindbrains are chockfull of it.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Aug 28, 2018 - 05:37pm PT
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These are subtle waters, not cut and dry, not black and white.
I know who first said that.
Once again we fall short
Do we fall short? Or do we fall long?
Life is tricky.
The answer is:
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Aug 28, 2018 - 05:49pm PT
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eeyonkee, how about higher mind predates organisms who have to evolve to a certain intelligence level before they can perceive it?
Excellent answer, Jan! So, now let's get into the weeds a little bit with this as our basic premise.
So, I would guess that if I suddenly developed Alzheimer's disease, that I would not be able to communicate with the independent intelligence at some point in time, even though I was able to do this previously. It would be, in effect, like I had never communicated with it at all.
Let's look at our closest cousins. Presumably, chimpanzees and maybe other apes would also be able to tap into this intelligence, but in ways that are somehow commensurate with their evolutionary status. I wonder how all of this might work?
I was hoping for a third and fourth, but suddenly realize that I am on the hook for dinner.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 28, 2018 - 05:54pm PT
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that I would not be able to communicate with the independent intelligence
You've never ever had that fully independent intelligence to begin with.
No mortal has that to begin with either.
We only ever have tiny minute independent intelligence .....
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Don Paul
Social climber
Washington DC
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Aug 29, 2018 - 06:46am PT
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Was just listening to the Supreme Court's last term arguments and there was a patent case about whether the whole is the sum of its parts. Warning: very few people would find the Supreme Court interesting if they actually listened to them.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 29, 2018 - 08:32am PT
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It's a construction of man, a means of conveyance across water or air.
The DEFINITION of "ship" does not change.
It most certainly does change. It changes every time we humans make a new one.
--
You answered your own question here, Dingus.
You are stumbling over specific models as opposed to the generic chingadera: Re - a means of conveyance across water or air.
"Ship" refers to the generic article, as you properly described. The specific instances or models evolve over time, but as every schoolboy knows, a ship, to be a ship, must "convey Dingus across water or air."
Now go back to the thought experiment in light of the above, and try and answer if the ship whose parts have been swaped out is the same (specific, individual model) ship (that physically conveys your arse from point A to point B).
The thought experiment explores (among other things) what was then (re Platonic forms) the relationship between the archetype and the particular incarnation of same.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Aug 29, 2018 - 11:17am PT
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"All are in a constant state of flux"
Careful, dangerously close to no-thingness.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 29, 2018 - 12:02pm PT
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What's the point? Neither the ship, my mind nor my arse are the same, from trip to trip, regardless of whether any individual part has been replaced. All are in a constant state of flux.
Exactly. So what does that say about our definitions, or our numbers that measure ... what, exactly?
Or is it that the meta FORMS are in flux, and the parts (the tiny weenie stuff) remains the same? But when we look at those tiny weenie parts, what are they? What "causes" them?
Like most good thought experiments, The Ship is food for thought. When people chide and bark for "results," they generally are not looking for "flux," wouldn't you agree. When people rant that this thread is "not getting anywhere," where do they expect to get, given said flux?
Part of mysterianism is questioning the automatic thinking/reasoning most of us - myself certainly included - bring to the mind game, which some call "mechanitus." Silly attempts to explain this away by redefining causation, complexity, hierarchy, emergence, information, and so forth, are still anchored to the idea that A gave rise to B, which "explains" B.
It certainly works well with technology.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Aug 29, 2018 - 03:57pm PT
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Silly attempts to explain this away by redefining causation, complexity, hierarchy, emergence, information, and so forth, are still anchored to the idea that A gave rise to B, which "explains" B.
Silly attempts sounds bad to start with.
You aren't clear on what they are trying to explain, though.
Explain away. Have at it.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Aug 29, 2018 - 04:14pm PT
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"1. Does mind predate organisms?"
Making one's way through a time-dependent mind field:
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