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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 28, 2018 - 10:32pm PT
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I feel I could always write better, and when someone comes along with constructive comments I try to learn from them.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 29, 2018 - 06:18am PT
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Hell, we have one of those at Reed College in our cozy residential neighborhood exactly 1.4 miles away from my house. It's manned and operated by some of the smartest, most entitled and elite undergraduate stoners around.
They even give tours!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Mar 29, 2018 - 08:38am PT
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Back to the brain - mind.
There's a fascinating article in the New Yorker about the case of Jahi McMath of Oakland who was declared dead after a tonsillectomy yet is still kept alive on a ventilator. Parts of her brain including the areas associated with consciousness are apparently still functioning while others, controlling her body are not.
Aside from multiple levels of ethical considerations about how we spend health resources, and the problems provoked by our respirator technology, it poses many questions about the definition of brain death as it is currently defined, the relationship of the physical brain to consciousness and the very definition of consciousness itself.
It makes one think that perhaps the definitions of death involving spiritual traditions of breath and heartbeat, are wiser than the brain death definitions that science has come up with.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/02/05/what-does-it-mean-to-die?mbid=social_facebook_aud_dev_kw_paid-what-does-it-mean-to-die&kwp_0=712161&kwp_4=2522359&kwp_1=1068711
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 29, 2018 - 09:01am PT
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Humans seem to make a strong equivalence between "life" and "consciousness." Balance the observation of a brain with the "area of consciousness" functioning in an otherwise "dead" body with those of bodies quite alive, but without a functioning brain, explored through discussions in this thread regarding dementia.
A common refrain on this thread would seem to posit the observation of a functioning "area of consciousness" in the brain irrelevant to consciousness.
The fear of being conscious in an otherwise dead body harks back to the end of the 19th century, Edgar Allan Poe giving voice to the then common fear of being buried alive. Jan could tell us how this fear may have more ancient roots.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Mar 29, 2018 - 09:30am PT
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The article points out that equating life with consciousness is more of a modern American (post industrial society?) view. Ethnic minorities in the U.S., traditional religions and peoples, define it as heart and breath. The only equivalent to Poe's fear that I can think of offhand would be drugged zombies buried by mistake in Haiti?
Certainly the article above gave me the insight , among many others, that we would not try so hard to preserve life if more modern people truly believed in an afterlife. It is our secularism plus advanced technology together which is provoking these dilemmas.
As for consciousness not resulting from the brain, there is the interesting question posed by the article of how a "brain dead" person who can't breathe on their own, can still manage simple movements to acknowledge the requests of family members. If consciousness lies elsewhere, then what do we call the part of the brain left in this girl which can respond to requests and commands?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Mar 29, 2018 - 11:59am PT
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A Reed College reactor run by undergraduates? What kind of insanity is that? One of the most bizarre climbers I ever met (in the Tetons), a young man we called "Piltdown", was a Reed student.
However, it's not fair to generalize. Sorry for the slight, you Reed grads in the ST forum - if there are any.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Mar 29, 2018 - 05:09pm PT
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Jan: . . . we would not try so hard to preserve life if more modern people truly believed in an afterlife.
An intriguing idea.
Death seems to be such a strong distinction for moderns. It’s like “everything” happens prior to it, and “nothing” thereafter. Yet, all the world is made up of what is conceptualized by the “before death” part.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 29, 2018 - 05:52pm PT
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how a "brain dead" person who can't breathe on their own, can still manage simple movements to acknowledge the requests of family members.
This proves what I've always said that the living entity is NOT the material body.
The individual living entity is the spiritual soul itself that manipulates and drives (animates) the gross physical and subtle material body (mind).
The modern scientist with their reductionists consciousness completely misses the boat on this.
The puffed up consciousness of the stubborn modern scientists leads themselves and everyone else who follows them down the wrong path ....
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Mar 29, 2018 - 07:01pm PT
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One of the most bizarre climbers I ever met (in the Tetons), a young man we called "Piltdown", was a Reed student.
However, it's not fair to generalize. Sorry for the slight, you Reed grads in the ST forum - if there are any.
My worst math prof at EWU, by far, was a Reed man. Later on, he decided to leave academia and dedicate his time to the restaurant business. A blessing to anyone deciding to study math at EWU.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 29, 2018 - 07:40pm PT
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Our ability to assess what the brain is doing depends mostly on movement, or behavior. The question about the mental activity of comatose patients is an important one, but our methods of looking inside the brains of non-responsive or uncooperative people are not very good. For unresponsive patients on ventilators it would be nice to look directly into the mind. If that ever becomes possible, though, the potential for abuse is terrifying to contemplate.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 29, 2018 - 08:04pm PT
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Just see the modern scientists.
They want to look into everyone's mind but their own.
They can't even save themselves but want to save everyone else.
If you can't save yourself you'll never save anyone else.
No wonder they can't understand anything .........
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Mar 30, 2018 - 01:46am PT
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Slow, steady waves keep brain humming
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Moreover, the ultra-slow waves persisted when the mice were put under general anesthesia, but with the direction of the waves reversed.
"There is a very slow process that moves through the brain to create temporary windows of opportunity for long-distance signaling," Mitra said. "The way these ultra-slow waves move through the cortex is correlated with enormous changes in behavior, such as the difference between conscious and unconscious states."
...
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Mar 31, 2018 - 09:27am PT
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Werner: They can't even save themselves but want to save everyone else. If you can't save yourself you'll never save anyone else.
I think this notion is lost on many people, Werner.
At least the airlines get it: “Put your mask on before attending to those who don’t have them on.”
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Mar 31, 2018 - 04:30pm PT
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If you can't save yourself you'll never save anyone else
There is no historical evidence of someone sacrificing their life to save someone else?
Perhaps this is not what you mean.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Mar 31, 2018 - 07:54pm PT
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(Just like I said.)
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 31, 2018 - 08:47pm PT
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Is there anything at all that has been really understood fully, accurately, and completely? Who is it that can demonstrate that for anything?
MikeL
13 April 2016
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Mar 31, 2018 - 09:45pm PT
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YES!
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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No wonder they can't understand anything .........
Indeed.
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