What is "Mind?"

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Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Oct 11, 2017 - 03:38pm PT
And thanks Largo. I understood you perfectly the second time around.

It's said that the last desire to be given up, is the desire for enlightenment. Only then does it happen.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Oct 11, 2017 - 06:06pm PT
Thanks, Andy. I had done the search, but was disappointed in the graphs and absence of mathematics - other than "a decline after age forty of about 1% a year". I had also read over the article you linked. A lot of the information on the web is qualitative and general and much of it relates to Parkinson's. And much of what is more specific lies behind paywalls.

There seems to be a correspondence of sorts between dopamine decline and estimation of time intervals.
WBraun

climber
Oct 11, 2017 - 06:38pm PT
It's said that the last desire to be given up, is the desire for enlightenment.

No living entity has ever become desireless.

Desire is the symptom of the living being and life itself.

Desire can be changed but not ever stopped.

Desireless is the symptom of dead stone .......
sycorax

Boulder climber
Yoknapatawpha County
Oct 11, 2017 - 06:52pm PT
Tennessee Williams' extended metaphor:

Blanche: Why, they told me to take a streetcar named Desire and then transfer to one called Cemetery and ride six blocks and get off at Elysian Fields.




Blanche: What you are talking about is brutal desire. Just desire. The name of that rattletrap streetcar that bangs through the Quarter, up one old narrow street and down another.
Stella: Haven't you ever ridden that streetcar?
Blanche: It brought me here, where I'm not wanted, and where I'm ashamed to be.

MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Oct 11, 2017 - 07:30pm PT
The emotions locked in the unconscious mind, are much more difficult to perceive and understand,


Understood. Agreed. It wasn't clear that this was the aspect of the unconscious mind you meant.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Oct 11, 2017 - 08:00pm PT
John G,

I have very little knowledge of neurotransmitters and their distribution in the brain. In classes at Chicago we were told that Parkinson's was connected with cell death in the substantia nigra (and maybe with exposure to the flu virus of 1918).

It would be hard to study levels of dopamine in human brain, I surmise, since much of it would be stored in pre-synaptic vesicles waiting to be released by membrane depolarization. There may be no safe easy way to measure how much there is.

Estimating time intervals seems to fall into an area of study called psychophysics. For example, people are very good at telling when intersecting lines are perpendicular versus slightly off perpendicular. Psychophysics also looks at our ability to tell when sound or light levels increase or decrease slightly.

Psychophysical judgements could be sensitive indicators of age-related decline. But assigning the decline to any particular cause would be hard to do.

Have you taken those visual field tests where they ask you to push a button when you see a flash of light? Myself, I would not volunteer for any psychophysical study. Too anxiety-provoking when you are tested on the limits of what you can detect.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Oct 11, 2017 - 08:33pm PT
No, I have never taken those tests, other than standard optometrist stuff.


In speculating about the imaginary part of a complex time variable, it's straightforward to assign a logarithmic function, which, when differentiated, gives a measure of a multiplicative factor applied to an increment of clock time. The older you are the more you underestimate passage of time in small intervals. Just playing around.



Like Blanche and Stella.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Oct 11, 2017 - 09:54pm PT
Always wondered if Gell-Mann knew what he was doing with that term.

I think Gell-Mann is an intellectual, and a damn good scientist, and had a reason to choose that particular phrase.

Of course Zweig wanted to call them "Aces" which would have been great since there were 4 as of 1974, but then two more came up... so more like a dice, which would have begged a Grateful Dead reference.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Oct 12, 2017 - 11:10am PT
There seems to be a correspondence of sorts between dopamine decline and estimation of time intervals.

I'm in a rush right now but here is one of my favorite blogs on Dopamine/Time. No math included but there could be plenty downstream of developing links on this subject.

https://www.jackkruse.com/time-6-time-and-dopamine/


Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 12, 2017 - 11:13am PT
Dingus, you misunderstand. I believe that you're working off the idea that all meditation is equal, or is, or is trying to, do the same thing. Not remotely so.

If someone is working on the Jhanas it does not mean someone working on following their breath is "doing it wrong." It simply means they are working on anther aspect of the work. Someone working on chemistry is not, by working in that way, telling the physicist that he/she is working wrong. They are not working on the same issues. Simple as that.

Fact is, the person working on breath is doing exactly what needs to happen. There's a progression. You normally don't climb 5.9 without first climbing some easier 5th class routes. Usually a whole lot of them. The person climbing 5.9 is not necessarily "better," just more practiced. That's why they call it a "practice."

The Zen playbook is only comprehensible to those who are approaching the end game. It confused the f*#k out of me when I first got there.

One of the reasons Zen is so unpopular is that in many cases a person is left to try and do no-mind meditation long before they can remotely start to do so. Like putting a noob on a 5.12 slab. No chance. They only people who hang with the process are either a little crazy, are excited by the glimpsed possibilities, or have excellent instruction (very rare).

Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Oct 12, 2017 - 11:16am PT
If someone is working on the Jhanas it does not mean someone working on following their breath is "doing it wrong." It simply means they are working on anther aspect of the work. Someone working on chemistry is not, by working in that way, telling the physicist that he/she is working wrong. They are not working on the same issues. Simple as that.

All good. But it was more your quip
If you have to ask, "Why go there," then simply put, that kind of work is not for you.


to which I was responding. Don't mind me, carry on.

Thanks for response and cheers
DMT

MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Oct 12, 2017 - 11:51am PT
Dingus, you misunderstand.



“The old order changeth yielding place to new And God fulfills himself in many ways
Lest one good custom should corrupt the world.
Comfort thyself: what comfort is in me I have lived my life
and that which I have done May he within himself make pure but thou
If thou shouldst never see my face again Pray for my soul.
More things are wrought by prayer than this world dreams of.”

Alfred, Lord Tennyson
WBraun

climber
Oct 12, 2017 - 12:10pm PT
They only people who hang with the process are either a little crazy, are excited by the glimpsed possibilities, or have excellent instruction (very rare).

You forgot that some are continuing from their previous life/lives.

A materially conditioned living entity can go thru millions of rebirths and not all on this planet either before it comes to full realization
and becomes free from the cycle of birth, death, disease and old age .....

(Oh, but the gross materialists foolishly say there is no such thing as it's not in their so-called data base)
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Oct 12, 2017 - 03:53pm PT
A materially conditioned living entity can go thru millions of rebirths and not all on this planet either before it comes to full realization and becomes free from the cycle of birth, death, disease and old age .....


OK, so that's what the Wizard is getting at. Thanks.


jackkruse.com: Light has weight. As it falls to anything with gravity it gets heavier because light has momentum

Huh?
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 12, 2017 - 05:02pm PT
The power of reflex is a pretty neutral subject or one that a person can brag about.
This is the one I always end up bragging about (about 15% of the time it's worth bragging about). It's all I got.
Dingus McGee

Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
Oct 13, 2017 - 04:30am PT
per jackkruse.com

Maybe his blue light theory on dopamine reduction can explain why I do not like or feel comfortable with those blue headlights now appearing on cars coming at me?


Is there a need for meditation if you have had a good supply of dopamine all your life?

Religion? The fanatics say enlightenment will get you out of the cycle of reincarnation. Could one de-enlighten himself to get more dopamine by living more lives?

KOOL
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Oct 13, 2017 - 08:30am PT
I think Gell-Mann is an intellectual, and a damn good scientist, and had a reason to choose that particular phrase.

Really? What was it?
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 13, 2017 - 01:57pm PT
A materially conditioned living entity can go thru millions of rebirths and not all on this planet either before it comes to full realization and becomes free from the cycle of birth, death, disease and old age .....


Sez Gill: OK, so that's what the Wizard is getting at. Thanks.


Is that a fact, LOL. I put this alongside your quips about meditators sitting in "trances" or "states" and reaching for non-stuff in a "religious" quest - all silly caricatures - we can easily see why. But why not have some fun with it, sort of your own version of the nerdy scientist with high-water pants, a beard (of course), and who couldn't get lain with a gold brick. Not very accurate, of course, but chiding any camp outside our own is part of the game. It also tends to keep us on familiar turf, where our beliefs can't be challenges. Smug, usually, but so it goes with us humans, along with all the rationalizations.

Fact is, I have challenges enough getting hold of this life, let alone wrangling other lives. Not sure what "rebirths" etc. actually mean because I have no data or worm hole into getting any.

And our own Dingus McGee asks questions about meditation being "necessary," then seems to answer his own question with a chemical solution - dopamine. That is, providing one has the right quotient of dopamine, meditation becomes needless.

Would we still have a need for, say, biology, or baseball, or canasta, or face climbing, if our dopamine levels were up to speed? Or are we studying biology, playing baseball, dealing canasta, and crimping face holds owing to the lack of said chemical?

I think what this underscores is that when you go into a question with suppositions drawn from afar, or merely imagined, your thinking is bound to take curious bends and dips into the most fantastic conclusions.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Oct 13, 2017 - 08:24pm PT
I think what this underscores is that when you go into a question with suppositions drawn from afar, or merely imagined, your thinking is bound to take curious bends and dips into the most fantastic conclusions.


The same can happen when you go into a question with suppositions drawn from near and not imagined. Your oddly serious response to a quip is a good example.

jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Oct 13, 2017 - 09:12pm PT
JL: sort of your own version of the nerdy scientist with high-water pants, a beard (of course), and who couldn't get lain with a gold brick


Damned inaccurate. You forgot the pocket protectors.

Why would anyone want to "get lain" with a gold brick? Humans are softer.


;>\


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