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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jan 25, 2018 - 07:15pm PT
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Yes, Werner knows better, but he also knows better.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jan 25, 2018 - 07:25pm PT
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Infinite recursion?
What is the Finite recursion?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jan 25, 2018 - 07:25pm PT
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You should be able to notice from Wagner's record as a climber that he is operating outside of the Matrix
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Jan 25, 2018 - 08:23pm PT
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What is "Finite Recursion?"
Example: f(x)=2x+1, x=5, f(x)=11, f(f(x))=23. End. Finite.
Any recursion on a computer is finite.
However, frequently the process, in theory, is repeated ad infinitum.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 25, 2018 - 10:17pm PT
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From the article (very thick going) J. Wells provided ... though the piece is couched in philosophical jargon, interlarded with made-up terminology, it does pose very interesting questions. Like this one:
"Why should a universe consisting of separate observers with sometimes-conflicting agendas and survival imperatives display structural and nomological unity? Where observers are capable of creating events within the global unitary manifold of their common universe, why should they not be doing it strictly for themselves, each in his or her own universe, and never the twain shall meet?"
Many ways to surf this one, most of them interesting.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jan 26, 2018 - 08:37am PT
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Protozoans would need to collapse the superimposed wave functions of food particles in order to ingest them. So let's not restrict observers to him or her.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 26, 2018 - 08:36pm PT
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check out the Google Doodle today...
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jan 27, 2018 - 09:20am PT
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Protozoans, UNTIE!
Within the global unitary manifold of their common universe.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Jan 27, 2018 - 03:41pm PT
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From the article (very thick going) J. Wells provided ... though the piece is couched in philosophical jargon, interlarded with made-up terminology . . .
Unreadable IMO, apart from controversial issues like intelligent design.
Within the global unitary manifold of their common universe
Oh man . . .
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 27, 2018 - 05:08pm PT
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controversial issues like intelligent design
Yep .... intelligent design is controversial to the gross materialists because everything the gross materialist design is defective and made unintelligently.
Thus the gross materialists come to a st00pid conclusion there is NO intelligent designer .......
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 29, 2018 - 03:56pm PT
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Here is a picture of the books that I have read over the last, say year and a half, in part to keep up with this thread. I had posted pictures of some earlier sets of books that I had read previously on this thread .
I'm sure if Ed had read all of the books that I have, he'd have this problem solved already. Me, it takes reading them 3 or 4 times to start really internalizing some of the concepts. I will write a little blurb on each book/author in a post coming soon. For now, I've got a pissed-off customer.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2018 - 04:47pm PT
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All those books are defective and ultimately useless as they leave out the most important part completely, the living entity itself.
Academia alone will never reveal the complete whole.
Modern science and its foundation on the material will never ever come to any understanding of life itself.
The nuts and bolts of all the organic hardware both physical and subtle are the NOT the foundation of life itself.
Life itself is always non-material.
Life comes from life .......
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jan 29, 2018 - 04:56pm PT
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Re: the mathematical theory of consciousness
Odd journal for such a result. Needs better English spelling. With keywords like Axiom A, Axiom B, I like the terse refusal to resort to jargon. Beyond that, a better mind than mine is needed to add further comment.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Jan 29, 2018 - 05:01pm PT
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Crazy what pops up isn't it? I posted the link as a curiosity. I'm not recommending it.
;>\
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 29, 2018 - 05:04pm PT
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Pinker, Dawkins, Gazzaniga, Kandel, Mukherjee, Harrari -- punters all! You're right, WB.
I will tell you my current conundrum, trying to figure out Gazzaniga's fascination with and definition of downward causation as an "apology for" (my quotes) free will. His book is full of interesting, confidently-told stories and facts about the brain that would all seem to lead to the idea of the individual being at the mercy of brain-state. But half of it is consumed with the idea of downward causation as an explanation for why we can feel fine about our intuitions about free will. These speculations are on a much shakier foundation IMO.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 29, 2018 - 05:43pm PT
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Lately, I think I've come full-circle in my thinking about mind. Of those books in the preceding post, The Selfish Gene (1976), is the oldest one and probably the first one I read. Being a geologist, it is natural, I suppose, that my understanding of mind would be influenced first by evolution. In The Selfish Gene, Dawkins postulates that an arbitrary but successful, contiguous sequence of genes is the "thing" that is being preserved and selected for in evolution, and the thing that ultimately creates the machinery behind mind. I'm betting on the gene, and that downward causation with respect to free will is hogwash.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jan 29, 2018 - 10:01pm PT
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Science Advances 24 Jan 2018:
Vol. 4, no. 1, eaao5961
http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/1/eaao5961.full
The evolution of modern human brain shape
Simon Neubauer, Jean-Jacques Hublin and Philipp Gunz
Abstract
Modern humans have large and globular brains that distinguish them from their extinct Homo relatives. The characteristic globularity develops during a prenatal and early postnatal period of rapid brain growth critical for neural wiring and cognitive development. However, it remains unknown when and how brain globularity evolved and how it relates to evolutionary brain size increase. On the basis of computed tomographic scans and geometric morphometric analyses, we analyzed endocranial casts of Homo sapiens fossils (N = 20) from different time periods. Our data show that, 300,000 years ago, brain size in early H. sapiens already fell within the range of present-day humans. Brain shape, however, evolved gradually within the H. sapiens lineage, reaching present-day human variation between about 100,000 and 35,000 years ago. This process started only after other key features of craniofacial morphology appeared modern and paralleled the emergence of behavioral modernity as seen from the archeological record. Our findings are consistent with important genetic changes affecting early brain development within the H. sapiens lineage since the origin of the species and before the transition to the Later Stone Age and the Upper Paleolithic that mark full behavioral modernity.
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It is intriguing that the evolutionary brain globularization in H. sapiens parallels the emergence of behavioral modernity documented by the archeological record. First, the emergence of the Middle Stone Age is close in time to the currently earliest known fossils of early H. sapiens (17) that had large brains but did not exhibit any major changes to (outer) brain morphology (20). Second, as the H. sapiens brain gradually became more globular, features of behavioral modernity accumulated gradually with time (27). Third, at the time when brain globularity of our ancestors fell within the range of variation of present-day humans, the full set of features of behavioral modernity had accumulated at the transition from the Middle to the Later Stone Age in Africa and from the Middle to the Upper Paleolithic in Europe around 50,000 to 40,000 years ago (26). In this context, the “human revolution” just marks the point in time when gradual changes reach full modern behavior and morphology and does not represent a rapid evolutionary event related to only one important genetic change that leads to a rapid emergence of modern human brain morphology and behavioral modernity.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2018 - 01:28pm PT
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A friend of mind who works at JPL recently scanned this thread and asked, "Why aren't most of these people talking about mind, and instead are raking over computer models and neurology?"
My sense of it is that many simply don't believe Nagel when he said:
“The mind-body problem is about what experience IS, not how it is caused."
Rather the belief persists that if a causal chain can ever be linked to awareness, said chain will be what awareness IS, all else being woo.
Funny how to some, THIS sounds like woo ...
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