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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jan 23, 2018 - 06:51pm PT
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i can understand WBs frustration and disdain
to me it's amusing and hilarious to observe all this intelligent reasoning struggling to reinforce the phony matrix of materialistic science
99.99999999% of the material universe isn't even within all our realms of perception and knowledge....a minuscule sample set from which to draw profound scientific conclusions....
and all the while quantum physics has been thoroughly proving for at least a hundred years that the standard material universe (including your amazingly complex brain and body) doesn't even materially exist except has a mental construct of consciousness
to quote Mark Twain (a good friend of Nicola Tesla), "It is much easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jan 23, 2018 - 07:43pm PT
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yes, it's amusing to see how far you can go while insisting on an incorrect basic premise about the nature of what you are studying
you can see some amazingly convincing arguments on the net by researching 'flat earth theory'
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 23, 2018 - 07:52pm PT
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Tom, show how your understanding can lead us to new insights.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jan 23, 2018 - 08:15pm PT
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actually what i can see, as i've pointed out many times on this forum, is that we know so little and have so much to learn, that it is foolish to claim a knowledgeable perspective on any given topic, even in our well studied areas of professional expertise
that certainly includes this subject of mind and consciousness...where a closed mind with a fixed perspective won't get anyone very far...
this thread seems to have gravitated to a strong bias in a thoroughly dis-proven perspective on material reality....thus lowering the level of interest for all these intellectual discussions...i would hope for better from a group of such well-studied academics...
i am not a physicist, but follow the field with great interest...and the standard model of material physics seems to have hit a wall about 50 years ago after making a lot of interesting progress in the previous 100 years... string theory and multiverses seems to have proven out as contrived attempts to avoid recognizing the role of the observer in studying material reality
however to ignore the proofs of quantum physics regarding the nature of the material universe, (which happens to support the work of many philosophers and famous scientists) ... is not likely to lead to improved understanding...
relatively speaking, i know nothing...
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 23, 2018 - 08:23pm PT
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By first causes for intelligence I mean this -- something needs to be able to use intelligence for its ends. I think that feelings fit the bill. We want to feel good and not bad. This becomes the "first-cause" for intelligence which goes about trying to achieve good and avoid bad.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jan 23, 2018 - 08:35pm PT
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there are many respected scientists whose work I find very interesting: Roger Penrose, Rupert Sheldrake, Robert Lanza, Dean Radin, Lee Smolin, Eben Alexander....am i the only one here reading their work??
it seems like whenever i try to discuss some of their ideas here, there's an instant "woo woo' immunity reaction...
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 23, 2018 - 08:38pm PT
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Tom, since I am doing nothing more than embellishing a little it on what is currently the scientific consensus, let's just be clear to everybody how out-there from a statistical standpoint that your view-point is.
Hey man, I like Lee Smolin's ideas -- maybe we can find some common ground.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 23, 2018 - 09:20pm PT
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pretending you have the answers is the very fault you attribute to others.
Jim, you're a hypocrite of the highest order.
It's gross materialists that are the real pretenders.
They are the ultimate speculators and are always making ultimatums.
Mankind can not give any answers themselves period as all answers are always already there and are revealed on the need to know basis
according to time and circumstance both to humanity at large and on an individual basis.
The gross materialists always try to extract answers by force or mental speculations.
They fail miserably and only end up with incomplete answers they masquerade as full knowledge to not only deceive themselves and to the world at large.
The answers descend.
The gross materialists all try to ascend to gain knowledge, rockets to space.
All the answers are always already there.
The entire cosmic manifestation is right there in front of you and within.
One only needs to make themselves completely available to receive them ........
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Jan 24, 2018 - 03:17am PT
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Tom C,
it sounds like you read cockbook science and think those authors/ "scientists" are experts outside their field.
And then you generalize .... hogwash.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Jan 24, 2018 - 06:45am PT
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And the match is over with DMT quickly pining TC...
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Jan 24, 2018 - 08:17am PT
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Let me be the first to acknowledge my mistake with respect to machine natural language understanding.
Big Bluesman, International "Business Machines" Watson has not only wired the inimitable Bob Dylan, but Zimmer_Man himself seemingly agrees.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jan 24, 2018 - 08:40am PT
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Eyonkee said "By first causes for intelligence I mean this -- something needs to be able to use intelligence for its ends. I think that feelings fit the bill. We want to feel good and not bad. This becomes the "first-cause" for intelligence which goes about trying to achieve good and avoid bad."
Your statement is a good assumption to look into more deeply. The meditators do this by asking the root questions like "what is good? ; bad?;feelings?;intelligence?; achieve? But; rather than define them with name and form; the meditator is more interested in what is the experience of good? bad? intelligence? If you look closely you find they are constructs. Many people either never figure that out. That is called in Buddhism "attachment to name and form" basically it is an expression that refers to losing contact with the mind/experience of before name and form.
The Name and form POV are necessary for day to day activity but there is also an underlying POV that is before Name and Form; your raw/intimate experience. If you lose contact with this intimate experience by definition you will be a bull in the china shop of life and cause much suffering for yourself and others.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jan 24, 2018 - 08:56am PT
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when i first met Rupert Sheldrake, i told him he was one of histories smartest scientists
he told me, well, 'many of my peers wouldn't agree with you on that'
to which i replied, 'well, many of your peers have a lot to learn, don't they...'
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Jan 24, 2018 - 06:45pm PT
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so it seems we are surrounded by and permeated by energetic waves at many frequencies of the spectrum that are mostly not observable by our senses...including the frequency bands of radio, microwaves, infrared, UV, X-ray, Gamma rays, etc...
...and including the very narrow frequency bands decoded by our brains and interpreted as our five senses...in fact energetic waveforms is what our senses are able to sense and transmit to the brain...which signals are then interpreted by circuitry in our brain into imagery for the mind
technologically we have learned to build receiver/decoders for some of the otherwise unobservable frequencies of waves
we do this with devices such as a crystal tuned to resonate at a narrow unobservable frequency band and amplified to resonate within a frequency bandwidth available to our senses...hence we have radios, radar, TVs, video games, and the internet
quantum physics tells us that the universe consists of waveforms until observed, at which point waveforms collapse into what we call particles of matter...just as radio produces sound and tv produces imagery
perhaps a better way of understanding this is to say that our senses are receivers and our brains are decoders translating wave forms into imagery that we relate to as reality...literally just like a video game...
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jan 25, 2018 - 08:32am PT
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perhaps a better way of understanding this is to say that our senses are receivers and our brains are decoders translating wave forms into imagery that we relate to as reality...literally just like a video game...
An interesting conjecture but there are scads of brain studies that show that it doesn't work like that. I've been reading a great book by one of the world's leading neuroscientists; Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain, by Michael Gazzaniga. It is a relatively easy read and just jam-packed with interesting facts about the brain and mind. Try reading it and then see how you can reconcile your viewpoint with this knowledge.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Jan 25, 2018 - 09:28am PT
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quantum physics tells us that the universe consists of waveforms until observed
Quantum physics and any other methods of gaining knowledge do not know anything before an observation. Physics is about what happens at the time of measurement.
There is no way no knowing what universe is before observation.
Some more Tom Cochrane non-sense?
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J Wells
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Jan 25, 2018 - 04:44pm PT
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Sorry if this has been discussed. Your thoughts on Langan's theory of mind and reality?
His conclusions are similar to what I read/hear from senior yoga teachers.
Here's a link to his paper.
http://www.megafoundation.org/CTMU/Articles/Langan_CTMU_092902.pdf
Here's a small part of his layperson explanation of mind-reality:
http://www.megafoundation.org/CTMU/Q&A/Archive.html#Souls
In explaining this relationship, the CTMU shows that reality possesses a complex property akin to self-awareness. That is, just as the mind is real, reality is in some respects like a mind. But when we attempt to answer the obvious question "whose mind?", the answer turns out to be a mathematical and scientific definition of God. This implies that we all exist in what can be called "the Mind of God", and that our individual minds are parts of God's Mind. They are not as powerful as God's Mind, for they are only parts thereof; yet, they are directly connected to the greatest source of knowledge and power that exists. This connection of our minds to the Mind of God, which is like the connection of parts to a whole, is what we sometimes call the soul or spirit, and it is the most crucial and essential part of being human.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jan 25, 2018 - 06:07pm PT
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My thoughts, J. Wells:
What you describe appears to give humans a special place. We are quite special and have amazing capacities, when we look at ourselves. When we look outside ourselves, the perspective changes. The question, "Whose mind?" should be put aside. All we could really be sure of in the way of an answer is, "Not ours."
We may be part of God's mind. That would be nice. On the other hand, we may not. I don't think that would be bad.
What about you?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 25, 2018 - 06:27pm PT
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All we could really be sure of ....
See how YOU immediately took the position of supreme authority of all with your "we".
That is is the defect of your own self-service false ego as you are completely clueless ......
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