What is "Mind?"

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Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Aug 2, 2017 - 12:04pm PT
Cheers wayno :)

DMT
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Aug 2, 2017 - 12:17pm PT
Under what conditions is this statement true: "Life is a sexually transmitted condition which always leads to death."


The same conditions under which "What is 'Mind?'" is an internet transmitted disease which always leads to no-thing.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 2, 2017 - 12:25pm PT
Now we are getting somewhere. How does humor fit in to this discussion of mind? I would actually be interested in reading some neurophysiology studies dealing with humor. Anybody have any good links?

And cheers to you too, DMT. And all y'all too.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Aug 2, 2017 - 12:30pm PT
How does humor fit in to this discussion of mind?


The usual answer is, "Because it's true."

However, humor is one of those mysteries, like music, that we should not try to explain. After all, most people do not actually like explanations.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 2, 2017 - 12:52pm PT
After all, most people do not actually like explanations.

It depends on who is doing the explaining and how. Some are better than others. How many times have you really enjoyed someone explaining but didn't get a real explanation?
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Aug 2, 2017 - 12:59pm PT
Its not so much "explanations" as it is "The" explanation at hand, that might fail to elicit like button.

Example: "How was your day?"

Answer: "Oh god...., where to start..."

DMT
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Aug 2, 2017 - 02:02pm PT
So the most likely responses to explanations:

"Oh? (not very interesting)."

"Oh no! (not going to be fun)."


But a good-sounding voice reading a laundry list? That can be fun.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Aug 2, 2017 - 02:17pm PT
Well I'll put if this way, if the explanation is "Behold (insert hyperlink) I'm not much interested.

A thing I enjoy about this thread are explanations offered in the author's own words and voice. Largo does this quite well and I appreciate it, back handed compliments and all. :)

I also appreciate your short, provocative replies. You pack a lot of input in 10-20 words ;)

DMT
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Aug 2, 2017 - 02:51pm PT
He’s talking over your head, Dingus . . . literally


The Wizard is intelligent, but no more so than other participants of this thread. He doesn't speak from an elevated dais, while below we gawk in wonder. His message is very simple, but he attempts to flesh it out with reams of philosophical commentary, spiced with concepts from physics and math, of which he has only a passing knowledge.

He's very entertaining, but let's not get carried away.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 2, 2017 - 03:19pm PT
I saw that Sycorax and I had a snappy reply. Damn it, I was just starting to have fun. I went through about twenty pages of this thread and found some real "howlers".
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Aug 2, 2017 - 03:28pm PT
Too bad she immediately deleted her post criticising the Wizard for his demeaning attitude and dated expressions, like "get jiggy". Must have had second thoughts about what side she's on.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 2, 2017 - 03:35pm PT
Lol! I like your sense of humor, John.

You too, Sycorax.

Even when you are not trying to be funny.
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Aug 2, 2017 - 04:25pm PT
Does Ed have internal dialog when he is trying to solve a problem?

I don't know about Ed, but I've caught myself talking out loud and even gesturing while thinking about a problem when hiking alone. My mind seems to be working at two degrees of seperation from the actual business of solving the problem: catching myself talking to myself while trying to solve a problem.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 2, 2017 - 04:40pm PT
Why does everything revolve around Ed? I just don't get the hard-on.

Lol! She doesn't get the hard-on. Duh.

I thought everything revolved around Largo.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Aug 2, 2017 - 05:23pm PT
I remember first hearing from my thesis advisor the phrase, "hand-waving argument."

Now I've been motivated to look it up.


I think I detect a bit of hand-waving about hand-waving:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand-waving


or at least explanations that go on too long and don't satisfy.
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Aug 2, 2017 - 08:16pm PT
Why does everything revolve around Ed? I just don't get the hard-on


Caught one before she deletes it! And it's a jewel. And sycorax, that second sentence, well it's just not possible. But keep trying.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 2, 2017 - 08:18pm PT



Long version?

MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Aug 2, 2017 - 09:05pm PT
Bob,

You don’t think you’re condescending? Oh, come on. (You might want to check out the common definition on that word.)

Ed: the point is that while we have an "interior" life that is ours and ours alone, what we define as "subjective," sharing it makes it "objective" if only because we share using commonly developed themes of communication intended to make our "subjective" accessible to others. We "objectify" our personal experiences.

I like that you come up with what you see as the point of the conversation. It’s needed. However, . . . I’d say the “sharing” is a seeming, Ed. It’s that very “seeming’ness” that signals that the subjective is not objective.

We may form the same squiggles, or mouth the same sounds, or even paint the same picture, but there would appear to be way too many opportunities / influences / variables that prevent a “sharing” to occur. It could be pointed out that beings appear to have different backgrounds, education, teachers, parents, experiences, peer groups, their own infinite imaginations, and on and on. Look at long-standing couples and how often and substantial their misunderstandings and miscommunications are. Or read the same book, or watch the same movie, or look at the same piece of art.

You could argue, I suppose, for the consistency and definitiveness of mathematics as a form of communication, but that is by no means common or very useful in living.

Objectivity is a construction, and that means it is subjective.

Wayno: there would be no science without the scientist. . . .there would be no art without the artist. . . . how does one escape the subjective?

One cannot. You’re constructing categories. You won’t find them in reality. Just like the following:

Marlow: "Life is a sexually transmitted condition which always leads to death."

This declaration is something that can be said, but it is not inclusive, accurate, complete, or final as an explanation, a description, or an understanding.

Talking is just talking. Expecting talking to wrestle and pin down what reality is gets one only to understand fruitlessness. Even this very conclusion is heavy-handed. That’s why there appears to be so many opportunities for “zingers.” It’s so easy to turn a phrase, point out a glitch, an error, an amphiboly, a pun, an ambiguity, an equivocation, etc. in any discussion. It’s only when we’re expressing how ludicrous anything is that we seem closest to expressing what THIS really is.

Be well.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 2, 2017 - 09:48pm PT
Be well.

What would that be?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 2, 2017 - 10:39pm PT
Objectivity is a construction, and that means it is subjective.

subjectivity is a social construction, which makes it objective...

but my point is that there is no hard boundary between the two, and certainly there is nothing that could even vaguely approach being a criteria for judging whether or not a scientific theory of mind, consciousness and all that, is possible.

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