What is "Mind?"

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MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Aug 1, 2017 - 08:59pm PT

Largo said:

What it seems to break down to is a woeful ignorance to our own sentient process. Only a person who had no understanding of their own process would ever claim that awareness itself is emotional content.


JL,

What understanding do you have of your own sentient process?

What can you tell us about it?

And, since you requested the same from healyje, could you please make your reply logically coherent?
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Aug 1, 2017 - 09:01pm PT
Dingus: You have made no sense with this one, but just demonstrated your insufficient understanding of matter and energy.†

Heís talking over your head, Dingus . . . literally.

Healyje: So yeah, a clinical neuroscientist focused on disease and old age, but he's hardly had a research career focused in cognitive neuroscience.†

. . . and your published research studies?

Ed: but we should really ask why is the subjective/objective duality relevant.

Thatís it, Ed: question your own consciousness.

Bob: What I do know is the that JL is a master of backhanded remarks and about as condescending as they come.†

It might take one to know one.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 1, 2017 - 09:08pm PT
. . . and your published research studies?

Absolutely none whatsoever, but I have a pretty good grasp on the arguments and understand the mechanistic side of things from both biology and computer perspectives.

No research required to comment on Tallis' credentials when so touted in a discussion such as this - and in this case Largo is heavily larding the pot so to speak with regard to Tallis' credentials on the topic.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Aug 1, 2017 - 09:13pm PT
I'd love to accept the idea of a being, being Manifestly "subjective."

Doesn't that expose one to be an object, ultimately ?

I'll have a consultation with my insurance agent on the cost of this policy.
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 1, 2017 - 09:50pm PT
MikeL wrote: Bob: What I do know is the that JL is a master of backhanded remarks and about as condescending as they come.

It might take one to know one.



No Mike, I always come facing you. Also I'm not part of the fan boy club like you.



"Boob is such a jealous insecure little runt.

Largo is a good man and boob is insane ......"

Didn't take long for JL little attack chihuahua to chime in.
//

Werner, head of the fan boy club speaks.

Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 1, 2017 - 09:52pm PT
there would be no science without the scientist.

there would be no art without the artist.

how does one escape the subjective?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 2, 2017 - 12:14am PT
science and art are both social behaviors...

once we express our subjective experience it ceases to be "first person"

Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 2, 2017 - 07:27am PT
Does it cease to be first person or does it become more than first person?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 2, 2017 - 08:16am PT
is that a productive line of questioning?

the point is that while we have an "interior" life that is ours and ours alone, what we define as "subjective," sharing it makes it "objective" if only because we share using commonly developed themes of communication intended to make our "subjective" accessible to others. We "objectify" our personal experiences.

To the extent that we cannot do that, the experiences remain "subjective." For instance, what ever goes on in our perception of, say, the color "red," we may not be able to explain why we personally perceive it as we do, though we may agree in large parts with others. Engaging in that discussion with my color blind friend would reveal that there are parts of each of our "subjective" experience that is not shared.

Even this process "objectifies" the discussion, we can explore the boundaries of those differences.

But the fact that we all agree that we have these "subjective" experiences goes a long way to "objectifying" them, if for no other reason that we take them out and compare them with each other, including the experience you have which are deeply meditative. The methods used to get you in those states are taught (and are objective) and the description of your experiences are used by your teacher to assess your progress (objective measures).

So it is not at all clear how "subjective" and "objective" can be used as a criteria for establishing the impossibility of understanding anything, as Tullis does, and as Largo has been doing all along.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 2, 2017 - 09:37am PT
is that a productive line of questioning?
I don't know, you seem to have made a fairly cogent response. The recent back and forth about Tullis inspired my question and your reply makes sense to me.

including the experience you have which are deeply meditative. The methods used to get you in those states are taught (and are objective) and the description of your experiences are used by your teacher to assess your progress (objective measures).

I'm not sure I fit into that generalization. Even though I have had experiences which are deeply meditative, I was not educated by any method that requires a teacher other than my own inner guidance. I know Largo has his Zen experiences and that may better fit your example. So my teacher in this case is my inner guidance and that remains subjective or does it? Is my inner guidance just me? Is there someone in my head talking to me? Am I insane?



Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Aug 2, 2017 - 10:20am PT
So my teacher in this case is my inner guidance and that remains subjective or does it? Is my inner guidance just me? Is there someone in my head talking to me? Am I insane?

Yep!

DMT
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 2, 2017 - 10:34am PT
Right? That is why I hesitate to give advice. Even when it is asked for.

My mind plays tricks on me. But if it is my mind how can it play tricks on me? Are me and my mind separate things? Why would I ask my mind anything anyway if it is just me to begin with? Does Ed have internal dialog when he is trying to solve a problem? Does it distract him to the point of not being conscious that he is the driver of a vehicle?
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Aug 2, 2017 - 10:39am PT
Danged if I know?

DMT
Bob D'A

Trad climber
Taos, NM
Aug 2, 2017 - 10:45am PT
The funny thing about this thread is that JL really wasn't asking a question (What is Mind?), he already thought he had the answer...all of them.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 2, 2017 - 10:52am PT
At this point pretty much like discussing climate change with the Chief.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 2, 2017 - 11:04am PT
The funny thing about this thread is that JL really wasn't asking a question (What is Mind?), he already thought he had the answer.

I have had that thought also. At some point I would have called it mental masturbation but there are too many others involved. Exhibitionist? No, that would make us voyeurs. I don't try and qualify it anymore, it is what it is. I like the fact that there are a lot of divergent views here and I can cherry-pick what works for me even without contributing much. What a bargain. All I have to do is wait for the "zingers" and then duck.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 2, 2017 - 11:07am PT

Under what conditions is this statement true: "Life is a sexually transmitted condition which always leads to death."
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Aug 2, 2017 - 11:23am PT
At this point pretty much like discussing climate change with the Chief.

No, its nothing like that.

Largo has found a 'safe space' sounding board for his ideas and the handling techniques he needs to polish or perfect to counter objections.

Exaample: largo has consistently maintained the things he talks about are beyond measurement and physical theory, but then brings up physical theory after theory to (apparently) bolster his positions. When these ideas are shot down, he pivots to a new idea all the while maintaining his central proposition of woo.

I feel a bigger project looms behind the veil and we are helping him separate the wheat from the chaff in his arguments.

Aside from my pet theory there, I rather enjoy consideration of his ideas and his dogged defense of them. If he were to stop posting this thread would quickly die, I think we all know it too.

We're all wooful figments of largo's imagination? :)

Well, I don't think I am, haha. But anyway, I also enjoy healyje's, Ed's, MikeL's and many others contributions too. The ideas and their presentations of those ideas are cool. Its all just a casual internet thread on a discussion board, none to be taken too seriously.

But why kick it in the teeth? If yall don't like it post somewhere else!

DMT
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 2, 2017 - 11:26am PT

Largo is the Trump of philosophy. WBraun is more like Hillary...
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Aug 2, 2017 - 11:26am PT
Sex and drugs and Rock and Roll. Take any Rock song and replace the noun "love" with "drug" and it still kinda works.

But why kick it in the teeth? If yall don't like it post somewhere else!

But I like the kicking of the teeth. Not literally, just figuratively, and this a thread full of teeth-kicking. You do it too. This thread would be sleeper without some good ole teeth-kicking. Even putting ones foot in their mouth is a form teeth-kicking.
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