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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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"and then a miracle occurs"
The scientific basis for consciousness provides a plausible explanation of consciousness and even of "subjective experience", and a physical one, based on evidence and observation, and detailed knowledge of biology and it does this without resorting to miracles.
The only miracle round here is the certainty that science is the grail when it comes to understanding the nature of consciousness. If by miracles you're referring to the notion of occurrences outside the realm of the laws of physics, I never advocated such an idea, as someone long ago said there can never be enough evidence for such a thing. However, the universe is likely far stranger than science reveals so far and far stranger than you might imagine. Remember, It is plausible from scrupulous even scientific observation that the earth is flat and circular and the plausible explanations regarding consciousness offered by science currently are peripheral and lack all certainty. Again with the assumptions.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Healyje: There are plenty of organisms which do not exhibit conscious behavior.
And would you please list the behaviors that indicate consciousness? (Not just one or two please.)
Again, what IS consciousness? Describe what it IS, not how it works. Anyone?
(If you don’t know or are unclear what you’re talking about, then anything could be said, I suppose.)
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WBraun
climber
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Consciousness is the living entity itself and each has individuality.
All living things have consciousness.
The assertion by the gross materialists that plants have no consciousness is none other than an arrogant poor fund of knowledge.
The so-called Christians exhibit the same poor fund of arrogant consciousness when they claim that animals have no consciousness
and therefore can kill them and eat them without any karmic reactions.
Consciousness is the direct symptom of the life force itself as the living entity itself present within the gross physical and subtle material bodies.
When the living entity leaves its material body, consciousness ceases to exist but the living entity itself moves on.
The actual lifespan of the living entity within its material is measured in breaths (prana), which can be extended or shortened by the limited free will of the living entity.
Most of this is completely foreign to the gross materialists who dwell only in the gross and subtle material realms.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Paul said
The implication of what you wrote is fascinating because the plausible path you describe doesn't have to terminate with Einstein. The implication of a continuum of consciousness is a consciousness beyond human capability/ability and where is the end of that continuum, God? Plausible ideas are just that.
Frankly, I think that you are basically correct, but it won't be the omnipotent Hebrew God. More like Zeus or Apollo (especially as played by that guy in that original Star Trek episode). It's seemed obvious to me for a long time now that we are on our way to becoming god-like. But it isn't likely that we will be able to overcome the laws of physics -- including going back in time.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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I’m in the market for what’s called a gravel or adventure bike, and I have a brother-in-law who’s also into bikes who’s telling me that I should buy a touring bike, especially a Rivbike. He’s sent me to Youtube videos on its founder, Grant Petersen, who proposes what looks to be a new “old school” philosophy about what riding should be about. (He has a popular book out called, “Just Ride.”)
I’d say my brother-in-law has bought into a philosophy (and a bike) that suits him, but it’s not what I’m looking for. I’ve told my brother-in-law that beliefs support values, and values are usually derived from purposes. But my brother-in-law has a very strong set of beliefs about what’s right, what should be right, all from a philosophy that makes sense to him. He’s become dogmatic about bikes and riding.
We have different riding histories. Me: mountain biking, especially downhill; he, roadie. Both of us have owned a number of bikes, and we’ve shared some riding experiences together (Ragbrai, Skeggs in the Bay area). Now with kids, my brother-in-law is into upright riding, steel frames, relaxed geometry, and free and easy comfort. Me, I want something that can get my heart rate into the 160s maybe 3+ times a week for 40 minutes at a whack. I have some rough pavements around where I live, so I’m interested in a slight suspension system that I can take on rough tarmac and some dirt roads.
The point I’m trying to illustrate with this story is how remarkable it is that an idea (a vision, set of values, belief systems that appear to be tightly linked) can convince one about what is right and proper for not only one’s life—but others’ lives as well. Purposes —> values —> beliefs.
There seems to be striking differences between what appears to make sense theoretically and what appears to make sense experientially (directly through one’s own experience). Replication / repeatability makes certain assumptions about conditions and what things are within those conditions; yet nothing is the very same thing in all conditions.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Again, what IS consciousness? Describe what it IS, not how it works. Anyone?
What kind of description are you looking for? If you are not more specific in your request, I will default to:
Consciousness is that which you lose under general anesthesia.
Surely that is not describing how it works.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Speaking of grails, Paul reminds me of Monty Python's Black Knight.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Mikel :
I got this baby a couple months ago. The Trek dual sport line is an attempt to have a mountain bike and road (city) bike in one package.
I love my larger frame DS.It is a perfect match for my weight (166 lbs.) and height (6 ft.).
The shock system is superb and this bike handles like a charm. The shift system is smooth and the disc brakes are soundlessly precise.
And mine is red too.
Some thief walked into my back yard and stole my mountain bike ,prompting me to buy this one.
This one shall not get stolen.
I suggest getting at the least a kryptonite lock with a long two-loop cable for security.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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MH2 Said
Consciousness is that which you lose under general anesthesia. This immediately made me think of an article in the latest (Nov 2017) Scientific American titled How to Make a Consciousness Meter. Under the title is this. Zapping the brain with magnetic pulses while measuring it's electrical activity is proving to be a reliable way to detect consciousness. Turns out, as recognized by MH2, when you're under, you're not conscious. And now we have a meter to measure it or its absence.
Edit: It occurs to me that MikeL should contact the author of this article and ask him what consciousness is, seeing as how the word is used so prominently in the title and all.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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MH2,
Usually a thing is described with some metric or another and positive characteristics: weight, length, electrical valence, material, shape, necessary elements or parts, and so forth. I don’t know of anything (scientifically, that is) that is “defined” via negativa—by what it isn’t.
If consciousness is a thing, then how does one go about finding the thing in order to put it to a hypothesis test?
(I thought you were a science guy.)
Ward,
Thanks. (I thought weight and height was something that went into consideration in the “fit” of a bike, not a type of bike.)
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Thanks. (I thought weight and height was something that went into consideration in the “fit” of a bike, not a type of bike.)
Well a lot of these models will come in various sizes. The salesman took a good look at me and decided I needed a larger model than the floor model ,as a default, and when it arrived he adjusted it accordingly. After a trial run I had him readjust the seat about 1/2 inch lower.
For instance, if everything else is fine and yet one's arms happen be too long or too short then a type of these angled grips on the handlebar might be called for in order to avoid a carpel tunnel-like situation from developing.
Of course a lot of these considerations only make sense if you'll be spending a fair amount of time cycling.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The cause is not the effect: the experience is not the behavior. Knowing is not memorizing.
Again, the ability to experience and know are in fact behavioral capabilities - experiences and knowing are artifacts of exercising those capabilities and knowing and aspects of experiencing are in fact memorizing. If you're brain didn't 'memorize' an experience and what you took away from it then you would have no knowledge of the experience (and having knowledge of experience is an advanced behavior).
The brain as antenna? Really? Light sources aren't antennas receiving light waves, light is a product of energy's release and my point was perhaps we should start with a preliminary theory of consciousness as such. When someone describes the potentially limitless possibilities of consciousness/intelligence how are they not talking God?
Really! If consciousness is sourced external to the brain then an unavoidable issue becomes exactly how does consciousness find brains? How does it inhabit brains? And why brains and not thigh bones? Don't you find it a tad odd that all the tissues in our bodies have a exceptionally specific purposes? If brains aren't the source of consciousness then what else could that three pound glob of tissue be but an antenna / receptacle for an externally sourced consciousness? Or maybe you're with Werner and think brains are just a counterweight with consciousness in the heart.
When someone describes the potentially limitless possibilities of consciousness/intelligence how are they not talking God?
Well, I personally don't talk about limitless possibilities of [human] consciousness. That's because I believe our brains and subconscious / conscious minds are always optimizing for maximum efficiency with little to no unused capacity or capability. Evolution clearly changes what are brains / minds are optimized for, but that is driven by the demands of survival within our environment. And while I don't know what expectations you have in the way of a change in human intelligence, but there is some indication and speculation among cognitive scientists that the species is actually 'dumbing down' at the moment and devolving in terms of brain size and intelligence. And the evolution of human intelligence could just as easily be a one step forward two steps back affair with gains driven by extraordinary environmental events (usually bad).
There is very often an arrogance of assumption in the world of science, an unfortunate fetter to a wider understanding.
Whatever arrogance can be found in science it is subject to rather ruthless checks and balances, something which cannot be said for religion. And given how long religious dogma has resisted openness, learning and change I would say it represents a far greater fetter to any wider understanding by a vast portion of humanity.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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(I thought you were a science guy.)
When we talk about consciousness we are not talking about science. No scientist I respect would go near the subject. Except as an out-to-pasture pastime.
But I am only a science guy, and hoping to be surprised (shown wrong).
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WBraun
climber
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Joe H -- ruthless checks and balances, something which cannot be said for religion.
You've never seen religion yet at all.
All you've seen mental speculation about religion.
Real God consciousness is scientific and goes thru ruthless checks and balances, something which you know nothing about and have never seen.
You think you know everything.
Your arrogance is astronomical and pathetic .....
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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If consciousness is a thing, then how does one go about finding the thing in order to put it to a hypothesis test?
What was gravity before Newton defined it? Perhaps it didn't exist? Without Newton's physical definition, I suppose people just floated up to the sky when they fell.
It's pretty clear that what we call "human consciousness" is some kind of activity in the brain. The capacity to "look" at brain activity is something very recent in human knowledge (thanks to the MRI we can do this to a limited extent). There are people who are really interested in this problem for practical reasons (not just playing word games on ST). Some guys tried this:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0905370#t=abstract
https://academic.oup.com/brain/article-lookup/doi/10.1093/brain/awp183
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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eeyonkee
Edit: It occurs to me that MikeL should contact the author of this article and ask him what consciousness is, seeing as how the word is used so prominently in the title and all.
Having read this SC Am article I noted that the meter/measure system makes no use of 1st person reporting. Where is Largo to tell us and these scientist they do not know what they are doing by making a 3rd party evaluation as to whether some person has consciousness?
There is no investigation of the subjective experiences of each person evaluated but simply a zap of current and measure the resulting activity of the brain. With plants one would have find its brain to do the procedure properly.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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The only miracle round here is the certainty that science is the grail when it comes to understanding the nature of consciousness.
Not what I said, but you read what you want... certainly science is one way to try to understand consciousness, among many.
There is no guarantee that any understanding of consciousness, or at least as it is loosely defined here, can be had by any method.
MH2 has a definition of consciousness that I also proposed way up thread, as a set of protocols that nurses use to define the conscious state of patients. It is a very interesting protocol, and practical. In particular, the ability to communicate is central to the protocols.
If you are saying that science shouldn't even try to understand consciousness because, in your opinion, it is not a science question, well, you haven't provided any evidence to support your contention.
You have only said what consciousness isn't, but offered nothing about what consciousness is... except to say it's a mystery.
Mysteries don't last forever...
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