What is "Mind?"

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Stewart Johnson

climber
lake forest
Nov 18, 2011 - 12:02pm PT
in perfection, it is clear light.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2011 - 12:31pm PT
You are talking and talking, there are loads upon loads of words, but you never walk the talk.
-


Walk it for us there, Marlow, but put on some clothes first so you don't embarass your own self.

Or better yet, come to the High Ball event and I'll sit you down and MAKE you take off the pointy hat and put down all those cleaning products and just see what comes u0p to you . . .

JL
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Nov 18, 2011 - 01:09pm PT
Stewart: Whoa. You jumped right up to light speed.

Ed: I wish the NIDA would also talk about the regular addictions that all of us are hooked on: immortality, pleasure, seeing the world in only certain ways, materialism, the absolute sense of self and control of a world, etc.

The article said: Drugs are chemicals. They work in the brain by tapping into the brain's communication system and interfering with the way nerve cells normally send, receive, and process information.

Sorry, but that strikes me really funny. It's similar to the same things that my teachers do. They continue to jam my conceptions, my translations; they keep saying things or putting me into situations where my regular cognitive functions freeze up.

I've taken something from those experiences to my own classes. Works pretty well too.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 18, 2011 - 02:56pm PT
Largo

Embarrasment is simply no option. Neither is shame.

I repeat: You have a chance to start making sense.

You are still just talking from your third person experience perspective and you're still mentalistic and abstract. There are loads upon loads of words, but you never walk the talk. Do you want to make sense or are you just fuking around? If you want to escape: Tell us you were just fuking around.

Or give your chance to start making sense your best shot by showing us:

1. Your first person subjective experience
2. Your raw awareness
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Nov 19, 2011 - 09:59pm PT
The Science of Addiction still can't explain why not all identical twins react to experience, including drugs, in the same way. Perhaps there are tiny differences in the meat brain that we haven't discovered yet, perhaps it is something more ineffable than that, often called character or karma.

As for the question of what we choose to remember, one could also ask why do some people repress memories and others don't? How much of our social milieu determines how we organize our brain?
allapah

climber
Nov 19, 2011 - 11:52pm PT
why not wet d' woo-woo in? teleological backward reasoning from the evidence.

the evidence could be acquired by sending out legions of climbers equipped with neural networks and electromagnetic energy fields. climbers skirt death attractors with hard climbing over ice and rock, creating time distortion perception in the region of event horizons, allowing for trans-temporal perceptions of a weak, but measurable, degree. collect data by creating magazines and forums and campfires and other methods of information transmission. too many stories of intuition and syncronicity (the soloist with an intuition of pure certainty, Comstock saying, "It's [the pillar] talking to me...") for there not to be an acausal priniciple at work: it is the weak organizing force of Mind.
WBraun

climber
Nov 20, 2011 - 12:12am PT
Marlow

Largo left yesterday in this thread.

Why are you still carrying him .....?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 20, 2011 - 04:04am PT
Then no more WBraun. Why are you carrying Marlow?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 20, 2011 - 06:02am PT
coz

You can know yourself without knowing anything about the abstraction of "mind".

If you say you know "What is mind" without knowing yourself, you're lost.

Heidegger's Black Forest - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Mqsu72ZlJ2c
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Nov 20, 2011 - 09:02am PT
The most prolific source of new genes in animals, plants, fungi and other life whose cells have nuclei involves the shuffling or duplication of bits of DNA from existing genes. It was widely thought that de novo evolution of genes was quite rare, because the proteins they code for are often large and complex—most fail to function properly if a single key component is out of place, so randomly evolving a working gene seemed implausible.

When an international team of researchers scanned the human genome for de novo genes, however, they putatively uncovered 60, three times more than once estimated. More surprising, many of these genes are active in the cerebral cortex, suggesting that de novo genes might have played a key role in the evolution of the human mind.

"The cerebral cortex in the brain plays key roles in learning, memory, language, thought, emotion, perceptual awareness and consciousness," says researcher Dong-Dong Wu, a geneticist at the Chinese Academy of Science's Kunming Institute of Zoology, co-author of a November 10 report in PloS Genetics. "Our results suggest that de novo–originated genes may be responsible for some of these characters."

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=late-bloomers-new-genes-may-have-played

Researchers have long known that some areas of the brain are deeply connected to other regions — but now a team from Indiana University and the Netherlands says these connected brain regions form strong connections to each other, creating a cerebral “rich club.”
This club comprises 12 hub regions, which the researchers say are involved in complex human behavior and cognitive tasks. If any of the members of this club were damaged, the effects would be wide-ranging; if brain areas outside the club were damaged, a patient would see localized effects but the overall brain’s information flow would be uninterrupted.

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2011-11/tightly-woven-brain-connections-form-cerebral-super-entity
WBraun

climber
Nov 20, 2011 - 10:25am PT
This guy above is talking about the brain.

This thread is about the mind and "what is mind".

The brain is just a lump of matter that the mind works thru.

Tell us what the "Mind" is and not give us all this mubo jumbo brain drool ....

wack-N-dangle

Gym climber
the ground up
Nov 20, 2011 - 10:29am PT
brain = mind, and back again?

Maybe the material is spiritual? Just grasping at the straws, a previous post. Can we go climbing now?

d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Nov 20, 2011 - 11:14am PT
awareness of awareness.
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Nov 20, 2011 - 01:23pm PT
Here is:

1. [my] first person subjective experience
2. [my] raw awareness






















(There you go.)
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 20, 2011 - 01:51pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NKbuGQtnnDA
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2011 - 12:41am PT
I'm back. Okay, Marlow. Quit being truculent and get back to my original question and contrast 3rd person objective function with 1st person subjective. Don't adopt the sackless, feckless, shameless tactic and dodge my question by proffering one (a poor one, granted, but a question nonetheless)of your own. And if you lack the essential minerals to tackle the question, contrast "making sense" (by your own definition) with quantifying.

JL
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Nov 21, 2011 - 01:56am PT
much of this discussion is sort of like studying the nature of fish while denying the existence of water
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 21, 2011 - 02:41am PT
you said that before, Tom, it would be interesting for you to elaborate on it...

what is the water? there are a couple of different answers from the various points-of-view on this thread... one answer could be the brain... with the mind swimming around in it, but otherwise not really noticing it.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Nov 21, 2011 - 03:32am PT
Ed, i have a lot of respect for your point of view and your expressions of understanding

this is a subject that has been of high interest to me since i was a child

and yet i can not claim to be expert in neurophysiology, psychology, philosophy, sociology, religion, biochemistry;

although i have read widely in those fields

nor even claim to be expert in related fields where i have worked professionally: supercomputing, artificial intelligence, machine learning, natural language translation, and computer systems design

language is one of our best tools, yet has serious limitations that we tend to overlook

languages tend to be weighted towards the philosophies of the societies that develop the language

i was raised in a church with a priest father; yet plunged into teaching myself the sciences and adopted what i thought was a scientific viewpoint of reality

i took up climbing as a laboratory to try and better understand certain aspects of the mind and the capabilities of intelligence; and the results were completely unexpected and surprising to me

and i grew up in a family of professional writers; where i learned the english language has great depth and width of expressiveness

because of this, we tend to think the language can be used to express anything

yet i find it very difficult to express myself on this topic without resorting to analogies such as fish in the water; or using terms that are so overloaded as to be useless to express my thoughts; such as spirit, soul, god, or the like

others here, and notably Largo, seem to be struggling with some of the same limitations; with more success, and perhaps from a broader knowledge base

with that introduction, i'll just try to point out once more that a basic to this conversation is understanding whether consciousness and awareness arise from properties of the physical universe

or vice versa

i am unable to fathom how the physical universe can arise as a purely physical phenomena, and the more we delve into its structure, the more that is true for me

perhaps you could say that is my personal delusion; but if so, i didn't come by it easily

on the other hand, it is relatively easy for me to imagine how an underpinning world of spiritual thought (please excuse the heavily overused and easily misunderstood terms) can create a physical universe

i do not think it is necessary to think in terms of god or souls or etc; in order for this to be true

in my way of thinking it's perhaps a bit more like the 'luminiferous aether' that Michelson and Morely were looking for with their interferometer experiments

i tend to look at the brain as just the puppet strings for the body; certainly not as the source of intelligence and awareness

my perception is that intelligence and awareness are omnipresent; with or without any special manifestation of a physical body or even a physical universe

hence the analogy of fish in an ocean; with the ocean present, with or without the fish; and the fish composed of water
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Nov 21, 2011 - 08:42am PT
I let you go, Largo.
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