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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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If the universe is structured in such a way as to allow life and consciousness (something we have certain proof of) then how can it be said to be indifferent to that consciousness? How can consciousness be anything but an inevitable and necessary product of the physical structure of what is?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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The universe is on it own journey, with or with our consciousness.
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WBraun
climber
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Since every living entity is part parcel of the universe, the universe has purpose and is NEVER indifferent.
The universe is ultimately guided and under the jurisdiction of the superior supreme consciousness.
That very superior supreme consciousness is ultimately the source of every living entity and all the material energies combined.
The universe is on it own journey, with or with our consciousness.
The poor little doofus can't even write a coherent sentence ......
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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The universe is on it own journey, with or with our consciousness.
How can consciousness be anything but an integral part of the universe. Separating consciousness from the structure of what is seems wrought with a kind of prejudice.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Since every living entity is part parcel of the universe, the universe has purpose and is NEVER indifferent
Some questions connected to what you just made up, WBraun:
This "non indifference of the universe", is it beyond good and evil? Or: Can this "non indifference of the universe" have consequences for the individual that most skilled language users would see as evil (plagues as example)?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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The indifference of the universe is not beyond good and evil. Read Sartre and Camus instead of wiki. Existentialism entails full responsibility for choice -- life on life's terms. It acknowledges both good and evil. There are famous Christian existentialist like Teilhard de Chardan for instance.
Sheesh. You engineer lab coats are so poorly read.
the existential writers were a staple of my high school reading list, I think we actually proposed a class on them at my high school, which was accepted, and so we did... I think it is entirely appropriate for that age group's intellectual maturity.
lab coats serve the exact same role as aprons, they keep your "nice clothes" protected from the mess that often occurs in the lab... I remember the holes burned in my father's ties from the chemical substances he worked with in the lab...
my remedy was multifold, but it largely involved not wearing "nice clothing" and while eschewing a lab coat, my clothing was a funky mixture of the odors from hypoid gear oil, acetone, epoxy, and solder flux (among the most noticeable).
I probably should have worn a lab coat.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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"The poor little doofus can't even write a coherent sentence "
Wake up on the wrong side of bed today? Didn't do your daily chant? Lose your signed copy of Bhagavad Gita?
"The universe is ultimately guided and under the jurisdiction of the superior supreme consciousness."
LOL With your actions/name calling how would know even know a speck of "superior supreme consciousness"?
Another spiritual fake.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Marlow: MikeL: Are you just playing around or is your mind really the mess you present or represent? First you declare doubt about everything and then you end the story telling us that you're not a nice guy (of this you're sure) and that your wife loves you non the less (of this you're sure).
If I were a senile old man who can’t remember the hours of the day, and if I were not afraid of not knowing, then cannot all those things that you mentioned be true and comfortable?
My wife is one thing that I often don’t get. It’s my third marriage, and we’ve been married now for 20 years. I’ve realized that I cannot really see into her, and I can’t find a proper repertoire or method to deal with her to her satisfaction. The best I can do is to be as honest with myself as I can be, and then things turn out for as good as they can get.
As for being a nice guy or not, I’ve been a teacher of advanced students.
I’d ask: (i) whose mind is not a mess? (ii) Who doesn’t have doubts in their most private moments? (iii) Who’s really believes they are truly nice yet true to themselves? (iv) Who knows the future well enough to positively plan into it?
I see no contradictions.
I imagine you expect there to be a narrative that is not ironic about one’s life. I don’t see that, and I don’t experience it.
It is no longer at all surprising that I’m never right, that things don’t ever turn out as I imagined them to, and that “life” is neither wonderful nor horrible. As was said by Wayno upthread, I have a life of leisure. I think I’ve always had it even when I made $900 a month as a teaching assistant in grad school.
What’s really different when you are drunk, or when you’ve just woken up from a good night’s sleep, or when you’ve walked out of the courtroom that made your divorce final, or when you’ve put yourself into a trance when meditating on Bodhichitta, or when you’ve been shot in a firefight and you feel you are struggling for your life? Nothing. Nothing is really different; you’re just on another ride in the amusement park.
I’m not that confused so much about confusion. It appears to be a characteristic of the primal state.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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"I’m not that confused so much about confusion. It appears to be a characteristic of the primal state."
I been lucky to have my best friend/wife for 48 years to share my confusion with. Hope she feels the same way. :-)
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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(i) whose mind is not a mess?
A honeybee's.
(ii) Who doesn’t have doubts in their most private moments?
See above.
(iii) Who’s really believes they are truly nice yet true to themselves?
First tell me who's really.
(iv) Who knows the future well enough to positively plan into it?
Warren Buffet
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Mike, are you happy these days? Relatively? Are you relying on your default settings or are you actively engaged with change?
Effort does not always produce joy, but there is no happiness without intelligent effort.
Or you could change your default settings.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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"It is no longer at all surprising that I’m never right, that things don’t ever turn out as I imagined them to, and that “life” is neither wonderful nor horrible.'
Just took our dog for a walk, many birds to see and views from our walk are great...it was wonderful.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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(1) That's perhaps MH2's finest post ever.
(2) MikeL's a victim of post-modernism, it is sad he was taken in by it (a cdn which of course leads to its own neuroses, idiosyncrasies, etc.) .
(3)
Are you relying on your default settings or are you actively engaged with change?
Good. My terms for them are auto mode and manual mode. It's often a dilemma, also often an art, in any hard to call, complex circumstance whether to go with auto mode (eg, impulse or instinct) or manual mode (eg, education override).
On the other hand, sometimes it's just fun - just for a change - to go with the alternate mode.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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My terms for them are auto mode and manual mode.
I like that. I also like to change the terms as much as a situation may call for it. Sometimes it is not just one or the other or both. Get artistic with it.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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I'm in auto manual mode.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Wayno: . . . are you happy these days? Relatively? Are you relying on your default settings or are you actively engaged with change?
Are these the only possibilities?
. . . you could change your default settings.
Go for it. Let me know how that works out for you.
HFCS: My terms for them are auto mode and manual mode.
As an apparent entity, I am being lived or dreamed. It is a role played by an actor.
It seems that I am living somewhat noumenally these days, and it implies an awareness which is not aware of itself and which has little room for conceptuality.
The doctrine is the doctrine of non-doctrine.
The practice is the practice of non-practice.
The method is the meditation of non-meditation.
The cultivation which is cultivation of non-cultivation.
This is the mind of non-mind, which is called wu hsin.
The thought of non-thought is called wu nien.
The action of non-action is called wu wei.
The presence of the absence of volition is called the Tao.
(paraphrased from *All Else Is Bondage* {2004} by Wei Wu Wei)
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Go for it. Let me know how that works out for you.
I went for it. A couple of times. It is a work in progress. Engaging the process as some say. I really don't have a doctrine to compare it with. No fancy quotes to sum it up. Just something I thought to try. I didn't like where I was at some point and I simply decided to change direction. There is so much I do not know but I do know that I like a change of scenery now and then. I try not to lose my curiosity, it is like an elixir.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Change is possible. Epigenetics is real.
You have a primary nature which is modified by experiences and praxis. Which leaves you with a secondary nature that is just as real as your primary nature was. It's your choice.
If you don't believe in change and don't want to change, you still change, because everything is not your choice...
One day I will die. One day you will die. One day everybody you cared for is dead...
Meanwhile we live... Get things done. Leave things undone.
I have my best time when I get things done and when things are done.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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MH2,
Excellent pointer. Thank you.
From the article about Lin Yutang’s book:
Lin Yutang’s ideal is the ‘scamp’ – an amiable loafer who wanders through life, learning, loving, living. He is a good-natured Renaissance Man, dabbling here and there, connoisseur of nothing, dilettante extraordinaire. He is earthbound, a man of his biology and of his senses. (For Lin, happiness is “largely a matter of digestion.” He favorably quotes a college president who admonished his freshmen that “There are only two things I want you to keep in mind: read the Bible, and keep your bowels open.”) Lin’s loafing scamp is a profoundly embodied mind, not a brain on a stick. And most of all, he’s eminently ‘reasonable’ – a trait Lin mentions throughout, and points to as the very foundation of the Chinese character.
Cheers.
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