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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 23, 2017 - 10:06pm PT
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no tachyons... too bad...
and they've left the Particle Data Group's Review of Particle Properties, too,
http://pdg.lbl.gov/2017/listings/rpp2017-list-wimps-other-searches.pdf
"We omit papers on CHAMP’s, millicharged particles, and other exotic particles. We no longer list for limits on tachyons and centauros. See our 1994 edition for these limits."
from the 1994 edition of the RPP:
Marini 82 PR D26 1777
Bhat 79 JPG 5 L13
Smith 77 CJP 55 1280
Prescott 76 JPG 2 261
Perepelitsa 77 PL 67B 471
Ljubicic 75 PR D11 696
From Ljubicic 75:
There is a industry of theoretical work that invokes tachyons... and a paucity of experimental demonstration that they exist...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 23, 2017 - 10:11pm PT
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We are not talking about rocks, but the human mind, if I correctly perceive the subject of this discussion.
Whether the number is 1 or one quadrillion, the discussion focuses on a definition of the mind, not the number of switches in the brain.
I thought we were discussing quantum mechanics, which has as much to do with the mind as it does with rocks.
That was my point.
As far as number of switches, that wasn't what I was asking, I was asking how many molecules are involved in the synaptic communication?
If you are talking about quantum mechanics as a metaphor for mind that is quite another thing, and you are welcome to any art you wish to produce (largely fiction), if you are talking about quantum mechanics as a description of the phenomenon of the mind, then you have a lot of explaining to do.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Jul 23, 2017 - 10:32pm PT
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No, I was discussing quantum mechanics as a function of the physical brain and its electrochemistry.
But I was presenting other material to further advance the thinking to arrive at this set of questions, which I will now state (I hope) clearly:
If we agree that the brain performs its functions at a quantum level as is true for chemistry, and if we further acknowledge that we can change the (state of) the brain's function through the practice of intentional consciousness, then are we not intentionally and consciously changing the brain's function and chemistry with our thoughts? We know that meditation, for instance, alters the activity of the physical brain
And if we are able to do so in this intentional manner, are we not altering the quantum activity of the physical brain?
And if our thoughts are not altering the quantum activity of the brain, then what is happening when we "see that the elephant has a lollipop"?
Then, later I would probably ask: what is the identity of this intentional consciousness?
If this is not clear, please let me know and I will attempt a more clearly-stated set of questions.
Thank you.
feralfae
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 23, 2017 - 10:44pm PT
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why make the distinction between the brain and the mind?
the brain does not work at "the quantum level" even though chemistry does. The chemistry takes place with a very large number of atoms being involved, and averaging over what is happening to all those atoms does not retain any of the quantum level.
the same thing happens for rocks as for the brain.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 24, 2017 - 01:50am PT
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Shut down the space program already. Put these funds into curing cancer.
Hmmm, I'm pretty sure that's going to be happening at the same time we cure old age...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 24, 2017 - 08:11am PT
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whatever "intentional consciousness" is, you seem to consider only its affect on the brain.
How is it that something can affect the brain, and the brain not affect it? they are interacting, after all, but you have proposed it to be a oneway interaction, which doesn't happen anywhere else.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jul 24, 2017 - 04:17pm PT
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Hmmm . . . this dilemma calls for the Wizard's insights.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 24, 2017 - 04:41pm PT
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"How is it that something can affect the brain, and the brain not affect it? the are interacting, after all, but you have proposed it to be a oneway interaction, which doesn't happen anywhere else."
My point from the start. All of John L thoughts are coming from one place...the brain.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jul 24, 2017 - 05:53pm PT
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How is it that something can affect the brain, and the brain not affect it? Once again, something that I heard from Ed that I hadn't thought about... He's my favorite poster here (followed closely by healyje). I love learning new things that I can incorporate into my model of the world.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 24, 2017 - 05:56pm PT
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Boob
None of your thoughts come from your brain.
You copy and repeat everyone else's stuff here.
You never have anything original of your own.
You're just a simpleton puppet here ....
Without the owner of the brain being there, to begin with, there can be no thoughts coming out of it period.
We are not the body nor the mind nor the brain, we are not material in any way ever .....
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 24, 2017 - 07:32pm PT
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Grow the f*#k up Werner with your childish name calling. Everything you just wrote including your childish name calling came from your brain...period.
If there is a thing as a soul and you are a product of it....well enough said.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jul 24, 2017 - 07:57pm PT
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Without the owner of the brain being there, to begin with, there can be no thoughts coming out of it period.
Is this a legal question?
Is there a contract we signed somewhere?
What are the consequences of taking credit for thoughts we don't own?
I didn't know God was a property rights capitalist/materialist. But it makes sense.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jul 24, 2017 - 08:06pm PT
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We are not the body nor the mind nor the brain, we are not material in any way ever .....
I think this is the message the Wizard keeps sending. We are "awareness" and arise not from the material.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 24, 2017 - 09:58pm PT
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the difficulties of positing a "quantum mind" become apparent when looking at the details of quantum computers. Here is a picture of a prototype of IBM's Q, which has 16-qubits,
The problem is to get the qubits to talk to each other, but not to anything else... thus the diffusion refrigeration to get the temperatures down low enough to isolate the quantum system from the outside...
with all the work, the coherence times for this particular quantum computer is something like 100 microseconds... the time that the system is "at the quantum level."
Building logical qubits in a superconducting quantum computing system
No one proposing a "quantum mind" has come up with a scheme that allows this to happen at body temperature and over a macroscopically huge (by quantum computing standards) volume.
This difficult aspect of quantum systems seems odd considering the role that the quantum mechanics of a molecule plays in making the molecule stable against heat.
The amount of energy equivalent to a degree K (or ºC) is 8.62×10⁻⁵ eV K⁻¹, taking room temperature to be 273.15 K that translates to 0.024 eV. Typical chemical binding is a few eV per bond. Quantum mechanics tells us that you need a few eV to break the bond, the typical energy from the surrounding "heat" is much to small to break the bond. Schrodinger made this observation even before much was known about DNA, what he did know was stability would be an important attribute to genetic material.
This stability is so great that ancient DNA retains its structure for a very long time, for instance, this DNA sequence from a 700,000 year old sample:
Recalibrating Equus evolution using the genomesequence of an early Middle Pleistocene horse
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jul 24, 2017 - 10:31pm PT
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Guess that's not going into my Lenovo ThinkPad anytime soon.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jul 25, 2017 - 09:42am PT
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The OP should apply to the site master to have the name of the thread changed to “What is Brain?” All problems generated here would immediately vanish.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jul 25, 2017 - 10:13am PT
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No, the problems would only start from another verbal point...
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jul 25, 2017 - 01:06pm PT
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Changing the title might deprive metaphysical philosophers one of their few remaining venues. Let's not discourage an endangered species.
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