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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jul 21, 2017 - 03:15pm PT
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If the universe is infinite as some physicists think then matter
would be Infinite and as well the potential for consciousness.
If that's the case how could consciousness be anything but eternal?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jul 21, 2017 - 06:10pm PT
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jul 21, 2017 - 07:44pm PT
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If the universe is infinite as some physicists think then matter
would be Infinite and as well the potential for consciousness.
If that's the case how could consciousness be anything but eternal?
If the universe were finite, would the potential for consciousness still be infinite? Is that collective consciousness that's eternal or individual consciousness?
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Jul 21, 2017 - 10:48pm PT
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If the universe is infinite as some physicists think then matter
would be Infinite and as well the potential for consciousness.
If that's the case how could consciousness be anything but eternal?
Since the potential for consciousness is posited as strictly the sum total of constituents that produce consciousness , such as matter/energy, and if the universe is in fact eternal, then consciousness is therefore eternal. If matter/energy is not eternal then consciousness is not eternal.
If consciousness exists outside of these constituents , as in the Wernerian universe , then all bets are off.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 22, 2017 - 12:34am PT
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If the universe is infinite as some physicists think then matter
would be Infinite and as well the potential for consciousness.
If that's the case how could consciousness be anything but eternal?
Well, sure I guess, the universe has infinite potential for iron, beryllium, oxygen or carbon too - but, until some gets made in a star somewhere there is none.
Similarly, until life emerges and evolves to the point of being conscious, awareness does not exist - i.e. awareness or consciousness do not exist out there in the aether on their own, they are properties of life and only exist within the living so long as they are alive.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Jul 22, 2017 - 10:41am PT
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So many tangents, so little time!
But first, I must dismiss Ed's two red herrings:
We are not talking about rocks, but the human mind, if I correctly perceive the subject of this discussion.
Whether the number is 1 or one quadrillion, the discussion focuses on a definition of the mind, not the number of switches in the brain.
My very wise grandmother, a bit of an anthropologist, once told me that Mind is what watches the watcher watching when I am observing myself.
Now then, I think we can all agree that the physical brain performs myriad functions, and has as yet uncountable (immeasurable) numbers of synaptic options for any given question or situation posed by the Mind. Our emotional states arise from our usually conscious responses to external stimuli, but can also arise from our own internal thought patterns. (Both hard-wiring and habitual pathways "engraved" in the brain's synaptic structure.)
For instance, when we are ambushed, a series of physical reactions can occur in a singularly immediate flood of chemicals into the body. The response of fight, flight or freeze is both physical and mental: we run even as we are thinking—processing—the image of the charging elephant. But even as we are processing, we recall the elephant's pink toenails, and the fact that it was waving a lollipop in its trunk. It is our friend's elephant, our friend the zookeeper, sending the pet elephant with a surprise sweet for us.
We immediately shift our perception to think how delightful this sharing is and will be for us, and we anticipate savoring the lollipop. Our immediate response shifts our reasoning of the situation to one of happy anticipation. The chemical mix of our body changes. Adrenals relax, and the blood flow returns to a normal state. As the flooding of our body with chemicals is slowed, stopped, and dampened, we halt our flight, and with a smile on our face, we turn to greet the pet elephant and claim our lollipop. Our Mind, (using the functions of the synaptic system of the brain) has altered our body.
What changed to precipitate the shift in our body chemistry? It was our perception, was it not? And a conscious examination of that initial perception caused us to alter our perception of the circumstances, did it not?
When we are in an agitated state because our briefcase was stolen, we manage to return to a state of calm by practicing deep breathing, by humming a peaceful bit of music, reciting a mantra, or by arriving at a suitable plan to recover the briefcase.
With conscious intention, we can alter our physical state of being, alter the synaptic pathways our brain is using, and alter our emotional and our physical state of being.
What is it which enables us to alter the electro-chemical state of our mind, so that we calm our adrenals, slow our heart rate, relax our breath, and relieve the muscular tension in our body? What is it which directs and informs this shift in our sense of self and our surroundings? Nothing external has changed, and yet, we feel a definite sense of modification within our being.
I propose that the "it" which enables us to alter this physical state, and to enter a different physical state, including the physical state of the brain, is the Mind, Further, during the practice of meditation, studies have demonstrated that the activity of the brain can be altered by "mere" thought. This thought is the conscious, intentional shifting of synaptic pathways in the brain, thus revealing that meditation has the potential for a personal altering of the activity of the brain.
That which is able to alter the activity of the brain is the Mind.
And yes, I agree that Awareness is more than a personal or temporary attribute. For want of a better description, I think we all live within the Mind of G*d, which may be the aggregate whole of all of existence. But that is my own personal thinking, and I am not here to sell it to anyone else. But I am here to state that Mind is that level of Consciousness, or Awareness, that directs and trains the physical brain.
Ed, I wanted to label your red herring rock as a rockfish, but was not sure anyone would get the joke. Maybe you would have done so.
Thank you,
feralfae
(This is edited stuff)
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Norton
Social climber
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Jul 22, 2017 - 10:50am PT
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Not too long ago NASA let the Hubble star at a tiny sliver of what was thought to be dead space for 10 days to gather light.
Hubble returned images of thousands of galaxies whose age appeared to be some 14 billion years old.
The words infinite universe are purely speculative because we can only deal with the observable universe, considering that we are pretty sure is some 14.5 billion years old
means only that our ability to observe light right now gives that conclusion.
There may be many universes, multiverses. Countless advanced civilizations may have already evolved and died out over and over and over all over the known universe, seemingly our fate too.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jul 22, 2017 - 04:29pm PT
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https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/multiverse-the-case-for-parallel-universe/
I particularly like the idea of Tegmark's Level III. But my own predilections are for infinite multiverses existing simultaneously with "splitting" occurring at each instant. Shall we drive past the rest stop or stop for a moment? In one such "universe" we stop, in another we drive past.
Fun speculations.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jul 22, 2017 - 08:05pm PT
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In one such "universe" we stop, in another we drive past.
And in one universe we may spend too much money on space exploration while in another we use the money on a search for a cure for cancer.
from the link:
dark energy of roughly the expected magnitude was detected in astronomical observations in the late 1990s. This could be our first evidence that there is indeed a huge multiverse out there. It has changed many minds.
And the article mentions a search for a feature in the cosmic microwave background that would indicate a collision of our universe with another.
Speculation is fun. Coming up with a good test of an hypothesis is hard. Perceiving the outlines of a significant new idea is rare and beautiful fun.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Jul 22, 2017 - 08:59pm PT
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a side bit of nattering . . .
What I find most intriguing is that we have barely begun to consider the possibilities of superluminal energies. I am a big fan of tachyons. I continue giving some thought to the Human Mind's ability to alter the physical state of the body. That consideration is even closer to home than a galaxy.
Thank you,
feralfae
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jul 22, 2017 - 10:37pm PT
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I am a big fan of tachyons
Me too. Time for Ed to rustle up a few for us.
Where are they hiding?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Jul 23, 2017 - 07:16am PT
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tachyons - this thread is good for learning new vocabulary anyway.
I like the idea because it challenges standard notions of causality.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Jul 23, 2017 - 08:47am PT
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Where are they hiding?
Some individuals are pondering the possibility that tachyons are a product of awareness, that can "signal" far distances instantaneously. Some research has been done. I will look it up and share a link or two when I have time.
Right now, I am late for a birding date, meeting people on the Missouri and tributaries to observe the sora and rail populations in the backwaters. Happy Sunday and I hope it is cool where you are. May hit 100F again today here.
Toward entelechy~ :)
feralfae
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jul 23, 2017 - 05:23pm PT
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There was a poignant story on CBC Radio about a boy who's father died of lung cancer, likely from cigarette smoking.
The boy had read a version of H. G. Wells' The Time Machine. The boy resolved to build a time machine to go back and save his father.
As he grew up the boy became aware that building such a machine was not possible. However, he went into physics and eventually conceived a way to send information back in time.
The method was not practical since it involved a circulating beam of coherent light larger than the known Universe. It could only send information back to a similar machine constructed previously.
As I remember.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Jul 23, 2017 - 07:19pm PT
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Spooky action at a distance sounds like woo to me.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jul 23, 2017 - 08:36pm PT
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But verifiable by experiment. Not like the Wizard's philosophy.
Yet.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Jul 23, 2017 - 08:57pm PT
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Ah, thank you for the link, JGill.
We had a nice day stomping and sloshing around, with lots of heat. I feel very happy to have my old pith helmet. Smoke is very heavy in this valley right now, and everyone has a sore throat. We are advised to stay in, which we found out about on our early return. Just not enough air out there for some of us.
I am enjoying the discussions here, thank you.
feralfae
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Jul 23, 2017 - 09:07pm PT
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You know, I think the entanglement issue has been laid to rest by now. It has been discussed and theorized for a long time, and AFAIK, present-level experimentation and observation confirms entanglement. (I think other publications on this subject are available as well. I remember having a lively discussion about this with a physics prof. at NU about 30 years ago. I have not spent much time on it since then, but have not found any strong disagreements with entanglement.
Communication on a unique level.
And anyway, why not tachyons? :)
feralfae
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