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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 19, 2017 - 07:22pm PT
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...and many on this thread are scared off or made bored by a process they have never investigated at depth - but think they have. If you have, you'd never talk about awareness as a processing agent.
To be completely honest, this pegs pretty frigging high on the 'go-f*#k-yourself-you-pretentious-arrogant-prick' meter, but whatever - sure, hang on to that convenient delusion.
Thing is, Dingus, awareness is not a processing agent...
Hmmm, again, there is no 'you', there is no subjective experience, and there is zero awareness without just a sh#t ton of [obviously pointless] concurrent subconscious 'processing' going on simultaneous to you being you, you 'being aware', and you having subjective experience of any kind (like meditating). In fact, that's why we call it 'unconscious' when there is insufficient subconscious processing going on and why we call you 'impaired' when your subconscious is processing abby-normally.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jul 19, 2017 - 08:51pm PT
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What amazes me is how all the amateurs on Dancing With the Stars learn those complicated dances so quickly. I'd be tripping over my own feet.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 19, 2017 - 09:49pm PT
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rocks have chemical reactions too, most of them are not in a "quantum state" but in the "solid state" which is a thermodynamic state, though difficult to define quantum mechanically, easy classically, just kick it.
How many atoms are involved in a chemical synapse exchange? order of magnitude 1, 10, 1000, 10000? more?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 19, 2017 - 09:57pm PT
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https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101117121803.htm
"One synapse, by itself, is more like a microprocessor -- with both memory-storage and information-processing elements -- than a mere on/off switch. In fact, one synapse may contain on the order of 1,000 molecular-scale switches.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jul 19, 2017 - 10:45pm PT
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I'm glad to see there's no one dancing on "la table ronde".
And they are dancing, the board floor slamming under the jackboots and the fiddlers grinning hideously over their canted pieces. Towering over them all is the judge and he is naked dancing, his small feet lively and quick and now in doubletime and bowing to the ladies, huge and pale and hairless, like an enormous infant. He never sleeps he says. He says he’ll never die. He bows to the fiddlers and sashays backwards and throws back his head and laughs deep in his throat and he is a great favorite, the judge. He wafts his hat and the lunar dome of his skull passes palely under the lamps and he swings about and takes possession of one of the fiddles and he pirouettes and makes a pass, two passes, dancing and fiddling at once. His feet are light and nimble. He never sleeps. He says that he will never die. He dances in light and in shadow and he is a great favorite. He never sleeps, the judge. He is dancing, dancing. He says he will never die.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 20, 2017 - 07:56am PT
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Because you crazy gross materialist so called scientists haven't even yet fully understood what a human being nor what a living entity is yet ...
You come up with your nonsense computer analogies in relations to the living life force itself .......
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 20, 2017 - 08:27am PT
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I agree, all of Largo's computer and mechanism analogies are ridiculous.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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Jul 20, 2017 - 08:30am PT
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For example, a simple way to expand something as a continued fraction is to write, for a1 "large" and b1 "small", F = a1 + b1 = a1 + 1/(1/b1) = a1 + 1/(a2 + b2) = a1 + 1/[a2+1/(1/b2)], etc. This is algorithmic or procedural. The point of termination is an additional feature of the process. But this is hair-splitting. (Although one reason we never really get anywhere on this thread is that even fundamental concepts like awareness are pathetically ill-defined)
I really don't know much about the continued fractions, but the way I understand it, the generalized continued fraction would be (in theory) computable for any given pair of finite sequences a_1, ,a_n and b_1, ..., b_n. In terms of what Wikipedia calls the simple continued fractions, defined by a (possibly) infinite sequence a_0, ..., a_n, ..., of natural numbers, I imagine that the corresponding number is computable if (and quite possibly only if) the original sequence is computable. This seems to follow from the recursive formulas that express the continued fraction corresponding to each finite sequence a_0, ..., a_n as a computable quotient of two related sequences. So, if what I'm thinking is correct (I'm no expert in continued fractions or computability), there should be an algorithm to compute the infinite continued fraction when (and maybe only when) the original sequence is defined algorithmically. What the corresponding algorithm for the continued fraction does is compute the value of (what Wikipedia calls) the convergent for each value of n (but one also needs to compute the original sequence). It seems to me one of these is a finite, terminating process for each n if and only if the other is. The number \pi and the golden ratio are two examples where this (correspondence of two computable sequences) happens.
Anyways, I feel like I'm learning a bit more about (theoretical) computation from the layman's point of view, which is one plus about participating in a thread like this!
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jul 20, 2017 - 10:00am PT
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Yanqui..
At the end of the day, ain't we all the knights of our own mind ^^^^
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Jul 20, 2017 - 11:37am PT
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Healyje,
I agree, all of Largo's computer and mechanism analogies are ridiculous.
Largo it seems you construe my use of information theory and measurement as to mean I am liking the mind to a digital computer. Information theory was around before computers were. The techniques & measurements of Information Theory can be used on any signals. Even signals coming from nerves and the reticular formation. By the way the brain does produce signals. Information theory is about measurement -- like the 7 bits. The mind is finite. Even Thorton Wilder in the play Our Town knew we do grasp only a little of what is going on in our lives and at the conscious moment = 1/8 sec.
Consider conscious awareness of nothing. Yes. Such an event is entirely possible as conscious awareness is just a feeling that you can have without any content. You can experience this feeling like when you are sitting on your ass meditating to get the therapy you need. Welcome to the feeling of awareness. I can have it anytime without meditating.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Jul 20, 2017 - 12:06pm PT
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A thought along the way:
"With ideas it is like with dizzy heights you climb: At first they cause you discomfort and you are anxious to get down, distrustful of your own powers; but soon the remoteness of the turmoil of life and the inspiring influence of the altitude calm your blood; your steps get firm and sure and you begin to look—for dizzier heights." Nikola Tesla
I am in the midst of a project, but will be back by Saturday. I will enjoy catching up with the various conversations herein.
Thank you.
feralfae
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 20, 2017 - 01:37pm PT
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It wasn't Largo with all the computer analogies/comparisons to the mind it was you materialists including all your data requirements.
The life force is free from all your stoopid material data.
The life force has nothing to do with your crazy "material data" nonsense you try to attribute to it.
You materialists actually believe the coat you wear is YOU ......
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jul 20, 2017 - 02:51pm PT
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It's nice how people reveal parts of themselves here. At the end of the day, the sun goes down.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jul 20, 2017 - 03:59pm PT
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Tim, I was a little sloppy in what I wrote about the CF expansion. Sorry. What I meant to convey is, starting with a "large" quantity, like 25.367, you separate the expression into "large" and "small" parts, like 25 + .367, then invert the small one (1/(1/.367)) to obtain a new large and small expression, like 2.724... Then repeat the process. This is a simple pattern that could be embodied in an algorithm.
I did some research years ago in the analytic theory of continued fractions, which is a lot more sophisticated than simple number expansion, but more or less abandoned that particular topic to explore a generalized idea. You can see that Here. All this stuff is non-linear so can be quite complicated. The challenge is to discover simple facts about the subject.
I've written hundreds of computer programs along these lines, eschewing Mathematica in favor of a simple BASIC approach that easily allows unusual expansions and ideas. Virtually none of these algorithms terminate naturally and the programs must include a terminator command. For example, with a CF expansion of a complex function one might build into the program a continuing test comparing successive approximants. When the differences become sufficiently small the program ends.
It's great to have another math guy on the thread!
;>)
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 20, 2017 - 05:00pm PT
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Consciousness existed BEFORE the material manifestation came into existence and will continue to exist after the dissolution of the material manifestation.
Consciousness is eternal and is not sourced from the mind, nervous system, brain or memory.
The source of consciousness is the life force itself which is never material but acts thru the material elements both gross physical and subtle material (mind) .........
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jul 20, 2017 - 06:02pm PT
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It's great to have another math guy on the thread!
YES.
And we only had to wait a little less than 6 years.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jul 20, 2017 - 07:55pm PT
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Consciousness is eternal and is not sourced from the mind, nervous system, brain or memory
OK, OK, I knew it was an inherent property of the aether. Or a fundamental force in a universal vector field. The Wizard has been correct all along.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 20, 2017 - 08:30pm PT
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Consciousness is eternal and is not sourced from the mind, nervous system, brain or memory
Werner, hey, it's not like we don't get that you, John, Paul and other folks believe that. It's just that not all of us share that belief.
Anything to add other than that basic assertion?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jul 21, 2017 - 07:17am PT
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"Consciousness is eternal and is not sourced from the mind, nervous system, brain or memory"
And Noah had an Ark.
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