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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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The universe fits in the mind as comprehension. Ants don't perceive the universe in the same way human beings do. They don't have telescopes, radio telescopes, elaborate graphics that enable them to make interesting comparisons... yeah, I just don't see ants as comprehending, realizing all that. And thanks, I find my statements amazing as well.
Consider this statement:
It mediates the whole notion of scale in relation to the human observer.
Can you mediate[sic] your notion of scale in relation to the ant observer?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Can you mediate[sic] your notion of scale in relation to the ant observer?
Sorry, you lost me, don't understand the question.
I think I can relate to the pov of an ant, sure. In my imagination, anyway. But frankly I don't agree with Paul that the universe fits inside my mind. I don't think humans, even the ones who pretend otherwise, can really do it.
But wait a minute it fits inside your mind as an idea. That idea can be interpreted into graphics like the video above that create an understanding. In that understanding is the conception of infinite space and time. You don't have the actual universe inside your mind but you certainly have a conception of it and that concept is remarkably accurate given the available knowledge. And that human ability of understanding is pretty amazing.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Hey, LoveGasoline; I'm sure that you know that this is one of the earliest and biggest splits in philosophy -- Idealism vs. Empiricism. As I have said several times on this thread (haven't we all said the same thing several times on this thread?), I belong decidedly in the empiricist camp. The early 20th century philosopher, John Dewey expresses this world-view better than any scientist ever has IMO. So, this isn't about philosophers vs. scientists; it's about science-minded, empirical philosophers vs. idealistic philosophers.
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WBraun
climber
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it's about science-minded, empirical philosophers vs. idealistic philosophers.
No it isn't.
This thread is "what is mind"
Very simple.
That's all, but you guys are the mental speculators and have hijacked the thread into something it never was .....
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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WB -- Here's the 5-word answer; "Mind is the brain thinking (minding?--HFCS?)". Fits all of the facts to the extent that I am aware. No need to make it more complicated than it really is.
As for the tie-in with our perceptions of our fellow humans; it's a big, big deal that we all ascribe intent to other human beings and naturally assume that they are more or less like us in those intentions. For the most part, this is a good thing. For the most part, I think that we all assume that we are a collection of thinking minds living out our lives in various and changing states of grouping, cooperation and competition.
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WBraun
climber
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No it isn't.
It's where your run away mind is going.
You have no control of it.
It's controlling you .....
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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You aren't associated in any way with The Outer Limits are you? Well, of course you are, so there you go.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Sheesh, I knew that Hume is considered an Empiricist -- duh! That position just did not sound like the same kind of empiricist position that Dewey has. Maybe that's why Dewey called his philosophy Empirical Naturalism or Natural Empiricism -- I'll have to bone up on that.
Dewey spends most of Experience and Nature lobbing bombs at the notion that the objects of those perceptions -- the objects of the experiential world, are not independent objects with an independent existence from the perceiver.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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My conception of universe comes from others, from science in fact. It is not contained within my personal, physical experience.
Great many conceptions come from others but that doesn't make the knowledge gained from them any less real. Anybody who's been above 10,000' in a sleeping bag starring at a moonless sky has had a direct experience with the universe and in that experience coupled with the knowledge gathered from others comes a kind of conception.
The whole point is that scale, that is the scale of the universe in comparison to human scale, and that as a device to declare human insignificance in the face of what is, all that is mediated by the minds ability to encapsulate that reality, the universe, as an understanding and an experience... and this makes the human mind pretty spectacular.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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So, I'd like to modify an earlier metaphor a little bit. I said Vision is to eye as Mind is to brain. I'd like to change this to Seeing is to eye as Thinking is to brain. Working this out in my own mind, live. If anybody can come up with a good one for "is to kidney", let me know.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Ant's recognize scale. that's why it takes 5 of them to carry off a bee!
oblivious by there confidence scale hasn't much meaning(other than, "heavy on hands, light on work").
bigger certainly doesnt mean better!
specially when talkin bout sportsmobyle's ;)
CheeRIO!
B^)
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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good to hear ya gaslover!
is not dissimilar to that of the believer in god.
PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTtttttttttttttttt.
Please mofo, don't go where ya don't know
sincerely serious,
TheLoverofBluesBlocking#
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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^^^ Dangerous waters in which we swim . . .
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Ha,Ha, Ha ,Haaaa. JGill don't be a dog
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Er, no. That's a nearly infinitesimal slice of the universe. Exactly my point about not really getting the scale thing.
Well that's the whole point: even that small bit of the universe is vast in scale in relationship to the individual human viewer and yet is comprehended by that viewer's mind and in that is a claim to the significance of the individual mind. There is that vast space, infinite distance, and mind is aware of and comprehends it.
You can't declare human consciousness insignificant as it has the ability to realize all that is significant.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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There is that vast space, infinite distance, and mind is aware of and comprehends it.
You can't declare human consciousness insignificant as it has the ability to realize all that is significant.
AaaaaaaaaaaaawAAAAAAAAA!
come on contridore!!!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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You can't declare human consciousness insignificant as it has the ability to realize all that is significant.
Human minds come and go imperceptibly fast on a cosmological time scales. All of human existence and all evidence of it will similarly be non-existent in the span of a blip on that same scale leaving behind only a faint electromagnetic residue that we ever existed at all.
Significance is in the eye of the beholder and even then only so long as the beholder is around.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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come-ooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn, man.
belief is easily justfied by ourjustifiabilities.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Significance is in the eye of the beholder and even then only so long as the beholder is around.
bullf*#kingshit! significance stands alone.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Human minds come and go imperceptibly fast on a cosmological time scales. All of human existence and all evidence of it will similarly be non-existent in the span of a blip on that same scale leaving behind only a faint electromagnetic residue that we ever existed at all.
Always the desire to diminish what is one of the really magnificent developments of the universe: human consciousness. Scale and time can't accomplish that, don't make consciousness any less important as it is only consciousness that can realize such scale and time. You declare your insignificance and ignore the incredible significance that you can even make such a claim. The fact that humanity won't last forever and is therefore insignificant is simply the faint whine of the Christian world view lost and surviving as a vestige of what was once a certainty. It is only humanity that realizes the scale and time of the universe, at least in this solar system and the importance of what we do and think is vastly important in the context of the immediate now.
Your mind does not encompass the scale nor do your eyes.
No, it does, they do.
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