What is "Mind?"

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Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Aug 3, 2016 - 04:37pm PT
The assumption that everything MUST happen would be true if there were an infinite number of universes

To that I juxtapose this statement by Steven Hawkings:

The idea is that the most probable histories of the universe would be like the surfaces of the bubbles. Many small bubbles would appear, and then disappear again. These would correspond to mini universes that would expand but would collapse again while still of microscopic size. They are possible alternative universes but they are not of much interest since they do not last long enough to develop galaxies and stars, let alone intelligent life. A few of the little bubbles, however, grow to a certain size at which they are safe from recollapse. They will continue to expand at an ever increasing rate, and will form the bubbles we see. They will correspond to universes that would start off expanding at an ever increasing rate. This is called inflation, like the way prices go up every year.

I like the line:

They are possible alternative universes but they are not of much interest since they do not last long enough to develop galaxies and stars, let alone intelligent life

Hawkings defines "probable histories" as:

The probability for a state of the universe at the present time is given by adding up the amplitudes for all the histories that end with that state.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Aug 3, 2016 - 05:09pm PT
I've been using this 3 billion years ago, nothing much existed with respect to mind and vision and such, and I suddenly realized that I could probably safely move up that number to closer to 560 million years ago


But consider that it may have taken two and a half billion years for single-celled life to have developed molecular communication to the point where multi-cellular life was possible. Compared to that, the development of mind may have been a walk in the park.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 3, 2016 - 05:24pm PT
MH2 said.
But consider that it may have taken two and a half billion years for single-celled life to have developed molecular communication to the point where multi-cellular life was possible. Compared to that, the development of mind may have been a walk in the park

Boom! Learned something! That's how it is when you are science-minded...you can riff off and learn from each other because you have a common, agreed-upon framework and body of verifiable knowledge. This really is the reason that I participate in this thread. I love to have a new data point or idea in my evolving models of evolution and humans and mind and such.

In fact, MH2 may have hit on a larger truth -- Congress should be thinking about this a little more -- "there's nothing like a good infrastructure".
allapah

climber
Aug 3, 2016 - 05:44pm PT
Evolution in sub-atomic particles (atom is an emergent property) is going undetected by science because the measurements lie underneath (or over?) the Planck length

Do they allow wooists to conduct experiments in the particle accelerator?
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Aug 3, 2016 - 06:06pm PT
Do they allow wooists to conduct experiments in the particle accelerator?

Like dolphins they don't have to.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Aug 3, 2016 - 06:07pm PT
Yes, eeyonkee. The earlier punchline was, "I wonder if humans will ever learn to communicate with each other."
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Aug 3, 2016 - 06:19pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoW8Tf7hTGA
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Aug 3, 2016 - 06:46pm PT
Fascinating comparison vid. but in what way does scale affect/determine or become otherwise important relative to the significance of humanity and mind/consciousness? Seems size comparison, that is we are insignificant in relation to the vast space of the universe, is an entirely anthropomorphic view that pales in comparison to our ability to comprehend that space as in that remarkable video. The minds ability to comprehend is a remarkable and mysterious thing. I mean its incredible that all that vast space fits in your head. Don't you think?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 3, 2016 - 07:24pm PT

This technology will be used on humans. Why some of you dismiss this is beyond me. If you had Huntington's disease in your family, wouldn't you pay to have it permanently removed from your progeny?

sure it will/is. and your leveraged hand is that your gonna CURE cancer. so iguess this is where we should bow down to ya now?! but doesn't it seem to you odd now that you want high fives for CURING things you polluted. and i'm only using "you" as a derogatory statement, when i'm actually humbly pointing towards the, "take advantage with science crowd".

our, my point is to live Naturally as Nature with respects to god's divine plan and to always seek his will and not my own.

it's easy for me to see how people can taught science as polluting the world, on one hand. and on the other hand, it seems justifiable all the neat things.

if your really thinking you wanna change dna, yuo can start by taking this wild crocodile trait i have in me;)
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 3, 2016 - 07:27pm PT

but in what way does scale affect/determine or become otherwise important relative to the significance of humanity and mind/consciousness?

i wonder,,, what if earth was twice the size of sun?
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Aug 3, 2016 - 08:04pm PT
I mean its incredible that all that vast space fits in your head. Don't you think?


If you are saying that all of space fits in your head, then yes, that is incredible.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 3, 2016 - 08:06pm PT
I would offer this. It is an explanation of the world that is a natural extension of what you experience everyday and what you imagine your fellow humans to be experiencing everyday. There is no jumping off point required to crazy mental constructs that only few individuals understand (madbolter1 is the type example in my book of this one) or to religious ideas involving the supernatural. No.

eeyonkee







i would offer this. your questioning is for the here and now. with great uncertainty, and a fear for the future? mb1 responded for kant. under no other oblige. your disowning any civility over bias, are you not?

metaphysics questions have gone on for thousands of years, with queery.

i'll add;

the mind is a wonderful thing we shant not waste, but the heart shouldn't be severed.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Aug 3, 2016 - 10:30pm PT
If you are saying that all of space fits in your head, then yes, that is incredible.

If it is comprehensible by the mind then it "fits" in your head and that is an amazing and mysterious thing. It mediates the whole notion of scale in relation to the human observer. What is a mind that it can do such a thing.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Aug 3, 2016 - 10:33pm PT
I would agree that, given its structure, in this universe there are things that cannot happen. However all things that can happen within the structure of the "laws" of physics will, including life. And in that sense life was /is inevitable along with consciousness. And that's a fascinating and mysterious thing to contemplate.

in this universe, the one we're currently in...
I think it's all still a puzzle (you can use the work mystery, too)

it seems plausible that our current universe may be a particular instantiation of many possible universes, and that others may have also existed, or exist "elsewhere" or perhaps in the future when this universe accelerates in the "big rip" when the dark energy overwhelms everything.

What happens then? we can speculate... would those universes past and future have life, and conscious life?

The anthropic principle leads us to presume that this universe is not unlikely, rather that it is pretty likely, simply because if it were unlikely we wouldn't be here... so it would be a good assumption that life in those universes would exist.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 3, 2016 - 11:16pm PT
so why not thee be an evry direction whist to go, jus as the sun's illuminating part-ic-le?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Aug 3, 2016 - 11:35pm PT
What is a mind that it can do such a thing.

i wonder,,, i have a mind that sez the moon is puny compared to earth. and that earth is waay more puny compared to sun. so why o why how does the moon know knot to gun for the sun?
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Aug 4, 2016 - 09:05am PT
If it is comprehensible by the mind then it "fits" in your head and that is an amazing and mysterious thing. It mediates the whole notion of scale in relation to the human observer. What is a mind that it can do such a thing.


I find many of your statements to be amazing and mysterious. You could substitute ant observer for human observer and the above would still apply, though you could demur that the ant cannot fit all of space inside its head.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Aug 4, 2016 - 09:27am PT
I would agree that, given its structure, in this universe there are things that cannot happen. However all things that can happen within the structure of the "laws" of physics will, including life. And in that sense life was /is inevitable along with consciousness. And that's a fascinating and mysterious thing to contemplate.

Paul, I will agree with your statement, but only in principle: the universe is so incredibly big, that whatever can happen, obeying a few physical laws, is LIKELY to happen or has happened.

I believe (note that word), that there are other civilizations in the universe, but since it took so damn long for complex life to emerge from the trillions of trillions of generations of simple life, I assume that complex life is rare. Simple life might be common.

You should read the wiki page regarding the Drake equation. Drake, kind of informally, came up with an equation, that would tell us how common intelligent life in the Universe is. The equation is almost worthless. It has like 9 variables, and any one of them could be off by an order of magnitude. We only know of one intelligent species with the technology to transmit radio emissions, so a lot of our assumptions are based on the sample size of one: us.

Check out the Drake Equation, though. It isn't complicated. It is commonly discussed among SETI folks. The math is simple. Don't be afraid of the symbols. Anyone can run this equation with a high school education:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation
WBraun

climber
Aug 4, 2016 - 09:50am PT
the technology to transmit radio emissions

Only the gross materialist use this inferior cave man technology and then bragging they are intelligent and advanced .....
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Aug 4, 2016 - 09:52am PT
Anyone can run this equation with a high school education:

Yeah, unfortunately what I have is not a high school education.

I find many of your statements to be amazing and mysterious. You could substitute ant observer for human observer and the above would still apply, though you could demur that the ant cannot fit all of space inside its head.

The universe fits in the mind as comprehension. Ants don't perceive the universe in the same way human beings do. They don't have telescopes, radio telescopes, elaborate graphics that enable them to make interesting comparisons... yeah, I just don't see ants as comprehending, realizing all that. And thanks, I find my statements amazing as well.
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