Norway tragedy...

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Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 20, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
Lovegasoline

In Norway there is absolutely a certain belief in rehabilitation, especially concerning young people breaking the law. Still young people who end up in jail are often put in jail with people with a long criminal record, which gives them an education they don't need.

In Breivik's case I don't think many people in Norway believe in rehabilitation. He has his own ideology and he is not going to let it go.

Like the fox in this story I think he will not let his belief go:
"There was once a fox who was so utterly without cunning that he not only constantly fell into traps but could not even distinguish a trap from what was not a trap.… After this fox had spent his entire youth in other people’s traps … he decided to completely withdraw from the fox world, and began to build a den [Fuchsbau].… He built himself a trap as a den, sat down in it, pretended it was a normal den (not out of cunning, but because he had always taken the traps of others for their dens).… This trap was only big enough for him.… Nobody could fall into his trap, because he was sitting in it himself.… If one wanted to visit him in the den where he was at home, one had to go into his trap. Of course everybody could walk right out of it, except him.… The fox living in the trap said proudly: so many fall into my trap; I have become the best of all foxes. And there was even something true in that: nobody knows the trap business [das Fallenwesen] better than he who has been sitting in a trap all his life."

Let us hope few people will fall into a trap like his.

There is no "I-hate-Breivik"-industry in Norway (as far as I know). The tendency is to make an industry of loving one another, a common future and so on. I like this tendency.
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Jul 20, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
Your interpretation, not mine.

I was a believer in rehabilitation when I was young. Now that I am old, I can't say that I am optimistic about rehabilitation or that it could take place in a criminal institution.

People have different motivations for visiting ground zero or any other such site. It is part of our collective history, and of course people want to see for their own eyes the images that they stared at on television. My family was in the tower. I had colleagues that were in the tower. I am an EMT, and that mass casualty incident is significant. It isn't merely a morbid curiousity. There is a desire to honor those that gave so much - living and dead. I do not begrudge a few dollars to do so and do not feel that is crass commercialism. Everyone needs to earn a living, and some are no longer living.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
Jul 20, 2012 - 04:03pm PT
I couldn't help but notice this Norway discussion, since I read an article in Nat. Geo. Mag from 1974 just last week which wondered about the Samit people of northern Norway, numbering then in that country about 25,000. They derived their traditional living from herding the nomadic reindeer. The nut of the article was that this segment was neither fish nor fowl in the sense that their ways no longer supported enough families to continue the way of life except for those who were able to increase the size of their herds while the range for grazing was shrinking.

I suppose my concern is more for the outcome of this problem rather than the ultimate fate or rehab of the "little Hitler," Brevik. He seems a bit of a fascist, from what I have heard, to say the least. Which I will. He is not worth thinking about. He is best left to his black thoughts and we simply ought to go on with the really interesting and important problems which need addressing.

In light of today's shootings in Colorado, this may seem callous, but the same can be said in the future of this new version of Brevik. When the law's done with him, forget about him.

I don't wish to debate this with anyone. I haven't the time to waste.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 21, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
Rehabilitation would be a major consideration in sentencing the murderer, assuming that he's found guilty, rather than not guilty by reason of insanity. It is a key element in Scandinavian judicial systems, more so than in many countries. So he would be offered a variety of programs for rehabilitation. Whether he goes through them, and how he does, would probably affect the renewal of his sentence. In other words, if he in time shows genuine remorse, and change, he might (big might) change the terms or length of his sentence. It's pretty hypothetical at this point, but they'll at least try. Whether it'd make a real difference to the custody and sentence may be another matter.

There doesn't seem any 'industry' in Norway related to this. Different countries and societies, different values. There will be numerous memorials on Sunday, attended by the royal family and leading politicians. There will also be a large memorial concert in downtown Oslo, possibly including an appearance from Bruce Springsteen, which is expected to draw up to 200,000 people, plus television. They certainly won't let the memory of the dead grow dim.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 22, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
The melody Springsteen is playing in the memorial concert in Oslo right now.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

[Click to View YouTube Video]
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Jul 22, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
Rehabilitation would be a major consideration in sentencing the murderer, assuming that he's found guilty, rather than not guilty by reason of insanity.


Don't be foolish and liberal, Anders. You cannot rehabilitate that kind of crazy.

Better to lock him up forever, or kill him. Look what he did.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 22, 2012 - 03:54pm PT
Thanks, Marlow! Are you at the concert at Rådhusplassen? There were estimates that 200,000 would attend.

Your post, and today's memorials and concert, provide a definitive answer to bluering's question. I only hope that the murderer was strapped into a chair and made to watch it all on television, and see how he failed. (Particularly the songs "We Shall Overcome" and "Children of the Rainbow".) Perhaps he will never be rehabilitated - indeed, it seems likely. He may never be released from whatever institution he ends up in. But should a nation abandon its values and all hope that he can be rehabilitated, for revenge? It's a far greater victory if Norway sticks to its principles despite what happened, and learns from it.
WBraun

climber
Jul 22, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
Not guilty by reason of insanity?

You have to be stupid to not see that an act like that is purely insane no matter how you want to spin it.

The guy is already insane and guilty.

Norway is stupid and there's no trail needed.

He's already guilty and insane.

No sane man does sh!t like this.

Norway is stupid and insane not to see that ......
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Jul 22, 2012 - 04:09pm PT
Mighty Hiker
I'm not at Rådhusplassen. I am seeing the concert on TV. It was a valuable statement balancing the sorrow and the belief in a common future. No hate, no fear.

WBraun
Norway has no ears and no eyes, but stoopid Marlow has and he sees the insanity. ;o)

Edited
Mighty Hiker: WBraun is just fuking around. Your point is well made. I am glad the ideologically blinded or insane (common sense insane) Breivik has the same rights as every Norwegian.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 22, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
Yes, in the popular use of the word, the murderer in Norway was insane. Whether he legally was isn't quite the same thing.

Even in the USA, murderers (usually) have the right to a public, fair trial under the law. They're not "perps" or insane until a court says they are. Why should Norway do otherwise? Maybe the trial was just "going through the motions", but it's a necessary part of the process.

Will you say the state of Colorado is stupid and insane when it holds a public trial under its laws for the murderer from Friday night, and as part of that considers whether the killer was insane? If so, your own constitution and supreme court disagree, rather clearly.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Jul 23, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
Yes, I knew Werner was being mischievous. It's not like him. The Norwegians are in any case a stubborn folk, and have settled on their course of action.

The point of the events on Sunday was to remember the dead and injured, and their families and friends. It seems to have been a very poignant day, with essentially all of Norway involved. 60,000 are estimated to have attended the outdooor memorial concert at the square outside Oslo's city hall, on a cold and rainy evening, and there were appropriate ceremonies at Utøya and elsewhere that were very well attended, including past and present members of the Norwegian government, the royal family, and representatives of foreign governments. Members of the Norwegian government conspicuously were without visible security detachments, as usual, as they insist on being approachable figures, a privilege which the public and news media rarely abuse.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/20/opinion/jonas-gahr-store-learning-from-norways-tragedy.html?_r=1 (Norway's foreign minister)

http://www.newsinenglish.no/2012/07/22/springsteen-we-shall-overcome/
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2012/07/22/pilgrimage-back-to-massacre-scene/
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2012/07/22/photo-special-remembering-july-22/
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2012/07/22/honour-the-dead-by-celebrating-life/
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 13, 2012 - 07:36am PT
I appreciate the willingness of the commission of inquiry to see the world and actions for what they were during the attack/terror the 22/7.

Some conclusions:

 The 22/7-attack could have been prevented if already established security measures/instructions had been followed.

 The authorities ability to protect people at Utøya failed. Quicker actions by the police had been possible. The gun-man could have been stopped earlier.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 18, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
State Police Director Øystein Mæland has become the first casualty of this week’s scathingly critical report on how Norwegian police failed to efficiently respond to last year’s terrorist attacks in Norway. Mæland announced his resignation just as leaders of Norway’s political parties were launching a debate of their own over the report on Thursday night.
The odd thing is, he'd only taken on that role two months before the attacks, and for that reason no one was holding him responsible, although neither was he getting vocal support. It appears that he simply did the honourable thing.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2012/08/16/police-chief-quits-lacked-support/

Prime Minister Stoltenberg continues to have a high level of support.

The verdict on the murderer, and his sentence, should be on August 24th.
splitter

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Aug 18, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
This is all still very mind numbing to think about. So many, so much lost.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 18, 2012 - 04:21pm PT
All these shooting tragedies are mind blowing.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:16am PT
Norway’s home-grown confessed terrorist Anders Behring Breivik knew what he was doing when he killed 77 persons in and around Oslo on July 22 last year, the city court in Oslo ruled on Friday. The court, finding Breivik sane at the time of his murderous rampage, sentenced him to Norway’s longest prison term of 21 years, with a provision that can allow him to be held in custody for the rest of his life.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2012/08/24/breivik-ruled-sane-and-sent-to-jail/
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:27am PT
I sure hope that doesn't mean that psycho is up for "parole" every 10 years. None of the victims should EVER have to worry about him getting out.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:47am PT
I am a live and let live kinda guy, but 21 years for a guy that young seems a bit lenient. Does 21 years mean 21 years in Norway?
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
treadmill and a computer
It's still a cell within a prison. The computer has no internet connection, so it's little more than a typewriter, he may not even be allowed video games.

A novel concept, that prison with a treadmill so he can stay healthy is anything like being outside, beyond the walls.
A good written description of his prison is here:
[url]="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19354906"]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19354906[/url]

Insights into the Norwegian penal philosophy from the BBC article
"The idea is to increase contacts with the prison staff who are tasked with keeping him active, doing physical exercise with him, talking to him," Ms Bjercke told the Associated Press news agency. "Isolation is torture."
"I like to put it this way: he's a human being," said Ms Bjercke. "He has human rights. This is about creating a humane prison regime."

The modern prison has 12 wings and can hold 124 prisoners, overseen by 230 staff who can monitor them via surveillance cameras.

The last time a man escaped from Ila was in 2004, and he was caught within minutes, according to prison governor Knut Bjarkeid.

While none of the prison officers are armed with guns, they do have access to batons and can use tear gas if required.


As if the US' inhumane prison regime is effective. With the highest rate of incarceration in the US/Canada/Europe. Higher even than Russia.
And Norway is the lowest
The United States has the highest documented incarceration rate in the world (743 per 100,000 population), Russia has the second highest rate (577 per 100,000), followed by Rwanda (561 per 100,000).[8] As of year-end 2009 the USA rate was 743 adults incarcerated in prisons and jails per 100,000 population.[4][8] At year-end 2007 the United States had less than 5% of the world's population[29] and 23.4% of the world's prison and jail population (adult inmates).[9]
By comparison the incarceration rate in England and Wales[clarification needed] in October 2011 was 155 people imprisoned per 100,000 residents;[30] the rate for Norway in May 2010 was 71 inmates per 100,000;[31] Netherlands in April 2010 was 94 per 100,000;[32] Australia in June 2010 was 133 per 100,000;[33] and New Zealand in October 2010 was 203 per 100,000.[34]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States

Time Magazine article on a new Norwegian prison in 2010
Countries track recidivism rates differently, but even an imperfect comparison suggests the Norwegian model works. Within two years of their release, 20% of Norway's prisoners end up back in jail. In the U.K. and the U.S., the figure hovers between 50% and 60%
[url="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html#ixzz24UhF59NB["]http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html#ixzz24UhF59NB[[/url]


Do I think Brevik's prison sentence should have been longer. Yes, I'd say life without possibility of parole.
Do I think Norway will re-think their prison sentencing laws? Yes.
Do I think Brevik is going to get out in his lifetime?
No.
The additional criminal sentence of forvaring (protective custody) tacked on to Breivik’s 21-year term means he’ll be subject to a court evaluation of the danger he poses to society every five years. Breivik has never expressed regret and testified that he’d carry out attacks again. If he maintains that position and is thus still deemed dangerous 21 years from now, he can be sentenced to another five years in prison, and be subject to such five-year extensions for the rest of his life or at least until he’s considered to no longer be dangerous.
http://www.newsinenglish.no/2012/08/24/breivik-ruled-sane-and-sent-to-jail/

Should we be just like Norway? no
Could we learn a LOT about incarceration from Norway and other European countries. You bet.
Should we make our prison systems more humane? Certainly, and it will save us BIG money. Of course it will also put a lot of prison employees out of work. Hurt the profits of the companies where we've outsourced prison operations.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Aug 24, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
We're not talking about rehabilitating an 18 year old druggie who robbed a bank and killed a security guard on the way out. This isn't a guy who hated the government and went to shoot up a miltary base.

This is an adult sociopath who methodically killed 70+ children. Sociopaths cannot be fixed. You either kill them immediately, the appropriate reaction, or you bury them so deep in a hole that they can never get out. I say "reaction" and not punishment because that's what it is. Punishment is meant to correct behavior and is a waste of time with sociopaths. This is simply removing dangerous garbage from the planet. If you cut a malignant mole off your thigh would you then keep it in your pocket?

I fully understand those opposed to the death penalty in cases where there's even the slightest possibility the accused didn't do it.

But those who suggest this person qualifies as human and has rights have never met real evil.

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