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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jul 19, 2011 - 07:24pm PT
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Maybe we should whine about this online until the park service is forced to make a policy about this? Paul, talking to you. I wonder the officials in charge would say when they catch up to this online sh#t storm?? I think we'd all be better off if this wasn't a topic for them. Only real way to get there is to keep it off the net. Walk up and discuss it face to face with folks over there. Ian's there all the time, as are lots of regulars. Do the the right thing, why start a storm where folks that can't even spell "Smith" or "Rock" have never been there and don't want to go but also don't know where it is, can start to rage over some real or imagined slight? Leave this off the internet. Right now this is legal. Force the authorities hand openly by starting an unnecessary sh#t storm (ie, I WANT MY CIGARETTES NURSE RATCHET") and the line will be drawn for all of us, which is not where you or anyone wants it. Which means that putting one up next on the Great Roof would be out of the question. There are some other possible prime locations where there are no folks around.
Please, please keep it off the computer. Use your phone. Face to face lobby folks. Let the conflict happen face to face via a friendly campfire and beer discussion. Please.
Edited to add:
Ian Caldwell put this over on Cascadeclimbers.com:This swing has changed from people swinging risking their own lives, to nearly killing 2 innocent by-standers. I think this accident is horrible and should never happen again. Now we have 2 innocent people who are severely injured and will be impacted forever. I have heard the extent of their injuries and it is not good. Joel is very upset about this and was going to remove the bolts himself within a week. We both discussed it and we felt the sooner the better.
This is a very high profile incident that runs the risk of endangering our ability to continue enjoying the opportunities that we have right now in the park. Newer stuff in the park like highlining and even climbing could potentially be at risk.
This has to do with the big picture that is very complicated, I will not go into the details here. I gave it a lot of thought. I have read every post here and considered what everyone has said.
BTW. I talked to Alan Watts about this today. He did not put the bolts in, never swung on it and agreed with my actions.
We can be, should be, and currently ARE self-regulating, but no matter what the outcome, keeping it off of a public forum is a solid and positive thing to do.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jul 19, 2011 - 07:43pm PT
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I don't think that advocates of one sport get to decide that another sport should be the one banned.
Rope swinging is now a "sport?"
Get a perspective. It is a fun diversion requiring no particular skill, dedication or training (though some common sense is clearly needed).
Swing away. Just do it where you aren't going to possibly hit or entangle climbers.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jul 19, 2011 - 08:27pm PT
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If rope swinging is a sport, then so is masturbating.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 19, 2011 - 08:39pm PT
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Rope swinging is now a "sport?"
Get a perspective. It is a fun diversion requiring no particular skill, dedication or training (though some common sense is clearly needed).
Swing away. Just do it where you aren't going to possibly hit or entangle climbers.
You're right.
No SERIOUS sportsman would consider rock climbing a sport. What are the rules? what is the scoring system? Who calls the penalties? Most importantly, how do you win? When is it in the Olympics?
So you ready to drop the idiot fratboy mindset? I am absolutely positive that at some point in time, your description was applied to climbing.
As they say, your freedom to point your finger ends where my nose begins.
You CANNOT be an advocate for freedom, if you turn around and advocate for taking away other's freedom.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jul 19, 2011 - 09:39pm PT
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I LOVE to rope swing. I think pretty much everyone loves to go on swings, super fun. This isn't a question of limiting freedom to rope swing, as much as it is enforcing swings not being allowed where it endangers pedestrians, which this swing has proven to do. They are not saying you can't swing or put in anchors for a swing somewhere else. In fact the opposite appears to be true with the Park, they are trying not to have to micromanage. Swings are allowed. However if they endanger unsuspecting individuals not involved with the swing, then they need to be somewhere else. Plain and simple.
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Kevmojo
climber
ID
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Jul 20, 2011 - 10:25am PT
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I hope the Deschutes County Sheriff's Office is investigating this incident.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 20, 2011 - 12:23pm PT
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"Rope swinging is now a "sport?"
In the accepted sports we have a huge debate about doping. Sports all put some sort of quantification on performance and there necessarily has to be a never ending effort to prevent cheating.
Climbers talk endlessly about freedom to do as you please and there is no examination whatsoever of "cheating". Rock climbing can't become a sport. I always called it a pursuit.
Sport climbing where protection has been removed from the activity could be called a sport if the ascents were timed and style points were assigned. Actually this brings it full circle and makes it sort of a free form gymnastics. I am for that. Just take the word climbing away. It isn't climbing. Looking at current day interest I think free form gymnastics would become as interesting as real gymnastics, if it were unencumbered by any protection system. It would become acceptably high ball bouldering with style points. That could actually become interesting to watch.
As for "swinging" I don't offhand see where performance can be gauged. Maybe sensors could be used to measure how loudly the swinger can yell? Or perhaps their musical value rated? If swings were set up so that the swinger who jumps poorly at the start smashes into a rock I think the activity could make it onto reality TV. Got to work some lions into the act though. It needs buzz for the paying audience.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 21, 2011 - 12:41am PT
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"Swinging" is no more, or less, a sport than rock climbing. That is, neither is. But both can be lots of fun, and mostly harmless. Anyone here who claims that he/she doesn't like swinging is lying - all six year olds like such things, and who amongst this particular bunch of galoots isn't in touch with her/his inner six year old? Swinging around on a swing or a rope - all great fun!
Admittedly, there is a bit more room for competitiveness and ranking in rock climbing that in swinging.
As I think John put it, it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. In another context, perhaps.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 21, 2011 - 01:58am PT
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Oh well, the swing judges only ever gave me threes and fours for style anyway. Even that rotten redhair girl from down the street who I gave a tootsie roll to.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 21, 2011 - 02:25am PT
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Red hair!
Anders. You expect tootsie rolls to work with a Kelt?
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Calm is but a Wall
Trad climber
SF
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Jul 21, 2011 - 10:01am PT
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Anyone have Lee Dingemans contact information -- phone or email? I climbed w/ him on the East Side (Calif.) in April and would like to extend my good wishes and invite him back to California.
Jonathan Howland
jhowland@urbanschool.org
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jul 21, 2011 - 12:08pm PT
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Any updates on the condition of the victims?
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James Doty
Trad climber
Phoenix, Az.
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Jul 21, 2011 - 01:45pm PT
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Hemmingway said "There are only three real sports, bull-fighting, car racing and mountain climbing. The rest are mere games."
I think bull fighting is bull sh#t but I get the point. Fine motor skills and precision movement is required and the cost of failure may mean death.
I don't think rope swinging qualifies.
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James Doty
Trad climber
Phoenix, Az.
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Jul 21, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
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I am just commenting on the sport/no sport discussion. I have no problem with people doing it if they aren't f*#king other people up. And it harm none do what thou wilt.
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Paul T
climber
Bend, Oregon
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Jul 21, 2011 - 03:38pm PT
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Maybe we should whine about this online until the park service is forced to make a policy about this? Paul, talking to you. I wonder the officials in charge would say when they catch up to this online sh#t storm?? I think we'd all be better off if this wasn't a topic for them. Only real way to get there is to keep it off the net. Walk up and discuss it face to face with folks over there. Ian's there all the time, as are lots of regulars. Do the the right thing, why start a storm where folks that can't even spell "Smith" or "Rock" have never been there and don't want to go but also don't know where it is, can start to rage over some real or imagined slight? Leave this off the internet. Right now this is legal. Force the authorities hand openly by starting an unnecessary sh#t storm (ie, I WANT MY CIGARETTES NURSE RATCHET") and the line will be drawn for all of us, which is not where you or anyone wants it.
Couchmaster, talking to you. I fail to see how anything that has been discussed on this forum jeopardizes climbing, swinging, hiking, slacking, etc in the park. Do the "officials in charge" track how many posts on each thread pertain to their area of oversight, and when it reaches some arbitrary benchmark they step in? On average, how many individuals are assigned to the Supertopo surveillance detail, and what sort of qualifications do they have--just curious? Is it really safe to discuss such issues via cell phones, given the NSA's current monitoring capabilities? To summarize, I don't buy into the idea that the State Parks are actively surveying climbing threads, though if this is true, I don't see anything on this site to feel concerned about them finding. If someone is taking the time to read these meandering posts, while collecting a paycheck generated by state taxes, we have bigger issues than bolting restrictions to concern ourselves with.
And just to be clear, you are only concerned with my contributions to this site, considering you addressed me specifically? So, if I discontinue posting, others can carry on--is this correct? If you really are concerned about the number of posts ("sh#t storm"), then why not send me a private post to avoid contributing to that body of evidence which you are simultaneously damning?
Lastly, if you really want someone to be receptive you your suggestions, don't open your post with biting sarcasm, you will usually just get the same in response.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Jul 21, 2011 - 03:46pm PT
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This is not a private forum. Some government officials who can make decisions about public access do look at websties and occasionally post to them. WHen you post, think of it as what you would say in a public place with lots of people you don't know standing nearby with the opportunity to listen to every word.
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Paul T
climber
Bend, Oregon
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:11pm PT
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This is not a private forum. Some government officials who can make decisions about public access do look at websties and occasionally post to them. WHen you post, think of it as what you would say in a public place with lots of people you don't know standing nearby with the opportunity to listen to every word
Ok, this is getting creepy. Am I naked in this "public place with lots of people I don't know standing nearby listening to every word"? Like those unnerving dreams about showing up for school and realizing you're completely unclothed.
I don't think government officials would be too concerned with this little chat concerning de-bolting etiquette. More likely, they would laugh and feel as though they have succeeded in creating a subculture of individuals who take policing themselves to an absurd level.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:19pm PT
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I sat across the table from these folks trying to represent climbers as responsible people. Print and electronic media have served as exhibits to refute that representation. The press can be creative, and that ends up back on the superintendant's desk. We have seen postings from NPS and state folks on this site.
I'm not advocating censorship. I'm just saying this is not just a chat between you and me.
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