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jack herer
Sport climber
Veneta, Oregon
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 10, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
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I don't normally choose to post stuff like this. But this really kinda bothers me. A climber was critically injured and luckily not killed as a result of another "climber" in a totally different party attempting to do the Monkey Face "Swing" on a crowded Saturday in the park.
http://www.ktvz.com/news/28500142/detail.html
Monkey Face over the past year or so has been turing into an amusement park with all this slackling, and wanting to be the next DanO. Now I love that these guys are psyched and am friends with lots of them, but it seems like maybe you have to draw the line somewhere. Smith Rock is especially unique in the fact that there are no imposed climbing regualtions in a state park. Its stuff like this that changes that though. Anyways I'd be curious to hear what other peoples thoughts are, but please keep the spray out of here, there is a woman laying in a hosptal bed in criticall condition right now this is'nt a joke.
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Johnny K.
climber
Southern California
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Jul 10, 2011 - 12:34pm PT
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Best wishes and prayers for the girl in critical condition.
This type of accident is ridiculous!Hard to even comment or reply on such actions.It just shouldnt happen.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jul 10, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
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Lame...
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jul 10, 2011 - 01:19pm PT
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hey there say, jack herer....
this is very sad... sadly, too, it reminds me of how if folks would just teach young kids to be more observant for others when they are very young, and trainable, perhaps a third, or even half of these type of adult-accidents would not happen to the others, in their action-wake, :(
my on-going prayers for elizabeth...
thanks for sharing... any bit of awareness, can help someone else farther down the line...
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jul 10, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
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What rope swing on MonkeyFace? Seems if someone setup something like that it should be no where near where anyone is climbing. You grab someone elses rope and cause them to be injured when you are swinging, be prepared to have your ass sued up the yinyang.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jul 10, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
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I've never been to Smith. I assumed the Monkey Swing was a pendulum traverse, or something.
It's not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEZapuh8GA8
What are you guys doing up there? Six Flags Over Oregon?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 10, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
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At what point does stupidity become criminal?
Seems like this is pretty damn close to crossing that threshold.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Jul 10, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
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In 96 I think a climber in MT was prosecuted for trundling rocks and killing another climber. fwiw
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Jul 10, 2011 - 03:08pm PT
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That swing will NEVER see the likes of me on it. Could barely watch the video. I shiver to think what that rope is connected to. Blargh.
Best wishes to the two injured.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 10, 2011 - 03:12pm PT
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that is some mind-numbingly stupid ass sh#t
dance of the f*#ktards
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phylp
Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
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Jul 10, 2011 - 04:12pm PT
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It's terribly sad that these two people were injured and especially upsetting that the woman was so seriously injured. I hope that she has a full recovery.
Smith Rocks is a wonderful and special place, particularly so because the authorities have often been so climber -friendly. It would be a real shame to see that change. IMHO climbers insure the best access to the rock for themselves when they keep a relatively low profile. Before this, I had never heard about "the monkey swing" but it seems pretty high-profile.
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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Jul 10, 2011 - 06:44pm PT
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Had a sneaking suspicion the monkey swing was involved in this. Lame. I watched the evac go down yesterday and heard someone had gotten "clothes-lined" over around the Monkey. Huge bummer. Best wishes to the injured. Here's hoping for a full recovery.
Without knowing the details or who's involved...I won't pass judgement here. But jeez! This crap shouldn't happen! Be smart folks.
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Jul 10, 2011 - 07:10pm PT
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Unbelievably retarded. NorCals Auburn SRA is closed because of a rope swing/jump fatality. Honestly, if it wasn't a slippery slope to the eventual banning of climbing, I would be 100% comfortable with a perma-ban of pre-setup rope swings. Seems to attract the retarded and irresponsible :(
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jul 10, 2011 - 10:33pm PT
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You'll never completely avoid accidents in a place as crowded as Smith Jack. Many more callouts happen for hikers, than for climbers. It tends to be noobs that are doing things to get hurt (generally), and it won't stop. I don't even think it's too bad given the amount of folks there. What is the state going to do: close the entire park to the public (hikers, tourists, and climbers)? Then close all public parks (and this one in particular, unlike some others, is a money maker), then close everything that can create an issue or accident anywhere? Skateparks? Public restrooms? What else? Nope, won't happen, it's a public park, and anywhere you have the public you'll have stuff crop up. Folks tossing girlfriends off of cliffs, putting a shotgun to there heads and pulling the trigger rather than jump, etc etc.
These kinds of things are all over the place. I was doing the El Cap swing not too long ago (thanks Ritche!!! Woot!!!!) There's 2 on the Captain and the traverse off Lost Arrow is about the same kind of gig. Fun.
Hope it all works out for the injured climber. Another reminder (that we didn't need) to be heads up.
Take care all!
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Matt Leonard
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 11, 2011 - 08:00pm PT
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They did - it's Liz Redman. She's a regular Touchstone climber - and a fairly regular climbing buddy of mine.
Shitty situation, especially for an accident that involved no poor judgement on her part.
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Dick Erb
climber
June Lake, CA
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Jul 11, 2011 - 08:12pm PT
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There was an accident on EB Middle Cathedral Rock quite a few years ago, after a party speed climbed around a friend of mine and his partner, then knocked of a large rock which hit my friends partner in the head. This was a serious event with significant after effects. There was a law suit and the climbers above who knocked off the rock lost.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Jul 11, 2011 - 08:42pm PT
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The "rope swingers" at least in this case are as Kerwin put it...phucktards! They should be charged for reckless endangerment at the very least. completely clueless.
Peace
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apogee
climber
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Jul 11, 2011 - 08:44pm PT
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Was the rope swinger identified, or was it 'hit & rap'?
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Smeagol
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 11, 2011 - 08:45pm PT
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Ack! I never liked how them local hippies rig the swing. I did it a year ago, but we used a single line to swing and rap on (attached with grigri, coils tied off). Having to "catch" the rap line and transfer weight always seemed like an unnecessary complication to me. Not to mention this is a bad idea on a busy weekend. Done right, I think its safe and pretty darn fun.
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MisterE
Social climber
CA
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Jul 11, 2011 - 09:03pm PT
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What a mess - glad the climbers are seemingly OK.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jul 11, 2011 - 09:10pm PT
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Thanks Tami, nicely put.
There is no good news in all of this.
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iancaldwell
Sport climber
Redmond, Oregon
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Jul 11, 2011 - 11:15pm PT
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Bolts were removed today. The swing is gone.
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chris vaughan
climber
bend, or
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Jul 11, 2011 - 11:19pm PT
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Smith Rock Fall Victim in Fair Condition
One Tumbled 85 Feet, Now In Serious Condition
By Barney Lerten, KTVZ.COM
POSTED: 11:00 pm PDT July 9, 2011
AAAText Size
PrintEmail
UPDATED: 3:34 pm PDT July 11, 2011
I know its confusing, but it looks like they have upgraded her condition as of this afternoon. Go Liz!
Via the FB it appears that the anchors to this swing have been removed. Also as of today.
I'm pretty familiar with the logistics of the swing and its proximity to the main rappel anchors. Do to the fact that there is always "more to the story" I'm not gonna jump on any bandwagons and pass judgement on the incident; I won't comment on the anchor removal until I hear the person's ethos or rationale.... whatever. Although I'm not happy about it, I respect the guy and want to hear him out.
That being said, in my view, Smith has been a carnival for 30 years or more. Plastic holds, shotgun pranks, keggers, the list goes on. This whole thing is unfortunate and it appears that two people have been victimized by another persons carelessness or recklessness.
Wow, internet is fast, just looked back and there's Ian.
How about it?
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jul 11, 2011 - 11:25pm PT
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the rugged terrain where the rap route comes off the Monkey on the left
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MisterE
Social climber
CA
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Jul 11, 2011 - 11:31pm PT
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If memory serves correct - this is the landing point for the rappel, just barely out of the slope to the right (borrowed from Studly's photo).
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jul 12, 2011 - 12:29am PT
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Well, having done the swing off of Scarface a few times, I can't be too critcal. They should have been more careful, but it sounds to me like bad luck as much as anything.
As some others on this thread have said, it's not as if people haven't set up swings like this at other climbing areas, and people have been doing the one on Scarface for at least 15 years.
What always scared me the most about the Scarface one, and what seems even more dubious about that Monkey one is that the welded tuff at Smith isn't exactly the strongest rock in the world to put anchors into, and certainly not to have huge swing forces on the anchor.
At any rate the accident sucks and I hope she recovers quickly.
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mae
climber
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Jul 12, 2011 - 01:10am PT
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I haven't been able to shake the want to correct what the paper got wrong. Not a huge error, but because I was standing right there talking to them when it happened, I wanted to lend my eye witness account.
The newspaper said the rope hit them in the lower legs and they lost their balance. Later in the article a deputy talks about the dangers of people falling off Misery Ridge because of loose rock.
The quick and accurate version is this: the rope tied to the bottom of the swing's rap line, that ran back up to the diving board lay across the ledge we were all standing on. When the guy on the swing jumped, my partner was almost up the first pitch, and I was talking to Lee and Liz who'd just rapped down. When the guy on the swing grabbed his rap line, the rope tied to the diving board didn't "hit them and make them lose their balance." They were run off the ledge, at a full sprint, right passed me, with the rope at their backs and slammed face first (she was wearing her helmet) into the ledge 15 feet below before rolling down the talus their respective distances (my guess is that her pack made her roll farther/faster, he didn't have his on yet). The rope did hit me in the back of the legs, but I was anchored, as I should have been with a climber on belay. They were a minute from walking away, which is why they were rightfully not anchored. Had the guy on the swing jumped 5 minutes before, it would have been all four of us, 2 minutes after, it would have been none.
The first thing you hope after something like this is that everyone is okay, (she was updated from serious to fair condition today). The second is that we all get smarter because of it. I don't know much about the swing, but I do know that that ledge was part of their site, and they had not secured it. I hope that they think it all the way through next time.
My best to Elizabeth and Lee.
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MisterE
Social climber
CA
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Jul 12, 2011 - 01:44am PT
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Here's a bit better video of the swing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5FytswYphI
You all were at the notch then, Mae? And the swingers were pulling themselves back to that anchor point? Because it looks like the swing anchors are set up above the East Face Crack, well to the right and out of the way of the south face, a rappel well away from the trade routes (note the prominent "tooth" in the video and in the East Face picture below):
Photo credit: Jack Herer
The nearest climb to the Mouth rappel is "Rising Expectations" (5.11d, the top of which is to the left in the picture). The scramble to the notch from the east that is the approach to the usual suspects is exposed but easy and the climb to the starting ledge for the regular route/Monkey Space is exposed 5.6.
Just trying to clarify - thanks.
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jack herer
Sport climber
Veneta, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2011 - 02:03am PT
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Hey Mae, thanks for the first hand account. I almost had to work with that group doing the tyrolean that day but got the weekend off. Great shot of Jim Anglin there MisterE, photo credit goes to me ;) But yes that is the point where the swing was rigged off of. That is great to hear Liz is doing better.
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mae
climber
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Jul 12, 2011 - 02:58am PT
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It was less of a chase or avoidance or even a whip. You know when someone pushes your back and you take a step forward? It was like that, but on speed.
Lee had his shirt off and a brutal rope burn that I saw on his mid back when he hit the second ledge.
They were doing it differently on Saturday then in the video you shared, MisterE. They had a separate rap line that was part of a loop back to the diving board. So it wasn't that they were whipped by the end of a rope, they were caught in the force of the swinger on his second pass, grabbing a looped system. It's like they were flung with no choice but to move their feet. Does that make more sense?
Yeah, the east side, scramble up to the notch, the pitch before the bolt ladder. That's the right photo, Studly/MisterE.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jul 12, 2011 - 10:54am PT
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Gone are the days when Smith was quiet for weeks at a time........
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jul 12, 2011 - 12:05pm PT
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There was an accident on EB Middle Cathedral Rock quite a few years ago, after a party speed climbed around a friend of mine and his partner, then knocked of a large rock which hit my friends partner in the head. This was a serious event with significant after effects. There was a law suit and the climbers above who knocked off the rock lost.
I've never heard about this (how long ago was it?). They "lost" meaning it went to a jury trial and they lost, or they (or their insurance) settled?
I'm curious since this sounds like it would be an important precedent.
Was the negligence in knocking the rock off or was it established that it is illegal to pass a party on a route?
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jul 12, 2011 - 12:47pm PT
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It is my recollection that the middle cathedral lawsuit was settled before trial.
Edited to add: It has no legal precedent.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Jul 12, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
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So here are two questions for you Randy.
1) If there was no precedence, meaning, no legal "finding" by a judge and/or jury, doesn't this type of thing still set the gears in motion for possible legal action in the future?
2) If the case was settled out of court, does this mean there was some form of binding arbitration complete with sealed records?
Sorry, but my legal understanding is pretty much zero.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 12, 2011 - 02:37pm PT
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I am not an expert either but generally when a corporation pays money to get a settlement out of court there are two stipulations.
1. the terms of the settlement are not public information
2. there is no admission of legal/other liability
Since it would be impossible or a great additional burden for a court to establish the facts surrounding a prior settlement, and it is the job of the court to establish this in the first place, I would expect the court would simply make its finding on the case at hand.
In climbing areas there are now all manner of ongoing commercial activities but the attendant legal liabilities are generally mooted by incorporation and the poverty of the parties involved. Will be interesting to see how that will evolve in outdoor recreation. What is being sold there is a service delivered by a person and is not an inanimate object represented as delivering a specified performance.
Were I ever to use such services I would take care to review the provider's financial statements -
beforehand.
If unable to supply such audited statements I would not use their service.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jul 12, 2011 - 02:39pm PT
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1) If there was no precedence, meaning, no legal "finding" by a judge and/or jury, doesn't this type of thing still set the gears in motion for possible legal action in the future?
For a case to have "legal" precedence, it would have to be a published decision that can be cited as creating, interpreting or stating law on a subject. These types of published "opinions" arise either from a State Court of Appeal or State Supreme Court OR certain Federal Trial Court Decisions as well as a Federal Court of Appeal Circuit and US Supreme Court.
A state trial court decision (at least in California) has no legal precedent (except in that case of course).
But, to your broader question, there is certainly an argument to be made that if climbers successfully* sue other climbers that this may encourage other climbers to do the same.
* meaning they recover money whether by settlement or judgment.
2) If the case was settled out of court, does this mean there was some form of binding arbitration complete with sealed records?
Not likely. Binding arbitration is only an alternative means of litigating a lawsuit. An arbitration award is final judgment determined by using an arbitrator instead of a judge/jury. Because the arbitrator's award is binding, it is usually not appealable. This essentially precludes "settling" a case.
Also, in personal injury actions (which category this case would fall under -- bad pun), plaintiffs usually want to have a jury hear the case and would be unlikely to agree to binding arbitration.
Settling a case usually is accomplished either informally between the parties, as a result of mediation (using a third party mediator), or through a Court supervised Settlement Conference. Also, if there is an adverse evidentiary or factual ruling by the Court before trial, there is usually a strong incentive for settlement.
Taking a case to trial always has an element of the unknown. The facts of every case are different and rarely clearly-cut in favor of one party. There may be conflicting testimony of witnesses and evidence may be equivocable. Sometimes key witnesses (or the client) may not come across well and a jury may dislike them (or not believe them). Etc., etc.
All of this can lead to the parties taking into account the risk of losing and the cost of taking a case to trial. These uncertainties can lead to settlements. Settlements provide certainty. Like insurance, a settlement gets you a certain result for a certain cost.
Settlements (and their terms) may or may not be made part of the Court's records. The only Court record of a settlement may be a dismissal of the case.
Edited to add: It is extremely unlikely that the Court file would be sealed (absent confidential or proprietary information contained in the file -- this usually arises in Misappropriation of Trade Secrets cases).
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processk
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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Jul 12, 2011 - 02:48pm PT
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I was climbing on Monkey Face with a friend that day, actually following the two victims as all four of us climbed Monkey Space. We opted to bail on the last pitch and instead rappelled down from the far anchors in the West Cave in order to play around on Northwest Corner via toprope. After our rap, we set up on the belay ledge and my partner began climbing.
He had made it about 20 feet above the belay ledge when I heard a woosh, similar to a rope being pulled, and a man screaming "YEAAAAHHHHH" I look up and from around the corner (Eastern sharp corner on Monkey Face) I see a man falling straight toward me, face first. Needless to say this instantly rang "This is wrong" in my mind. I realized he was on a swing and as he swung around I was already judging his stupidity for pulling such unannounced antics on a busy cliff in the park with plenty of people around. We ourselves could have easily be taken out by his swing, and just the shock of seeing someone flying at you from above could have caused some other unwarranted falls on the face.
He swung around two or three times, yelling happily to someone how he usually can catch his rappel line on one or two tries. He finally did catch his tag line, and as he did I heard a man yell in panic (another witness who I can see is on the Misery Ridge trail, on his way to the base of MF). What came next was the sound of a body hitting rock, and scree falling down the slope below. The actual mechanism of the victims' entanglement in the line and their first fall was out of our line of sight, but I soon saw a female climber tumbling down the scree and boulder-ridden slope below us; eventually coming to an unconscious halt directly beneath (~100ft) below us.
The man on the swing began yelling remarks like "Oh no!" "I didn't think of that" "No, they weren't with me!". There was a class of teenagers doing the Tyrolean to the mouth cave who undoubtedly saw the incident, I presume he was talking to them.
We quickly prepared for our rappel down to help in the situation and to distance ourselves from the madman on the swing. As we readied ourselves, many bystanders below began to aid the two victims (one at below us unconscious, one out of our sight further up the slope). There appeared to be a trained nurse and others with first-aid know-how. 911 was called immediately.
The slope below us was covered in loose rock, and there was fear from the people helping below that our rap could send more rockfall down on the victim. We were told to stay on our belay ledge until the victim could be moved. We complied, and had a bird's eye view of the rescue process.
It was nearly two hours until the female victim, who was in very critical condition, was removed from the scene. Search and rescue took an hour to arrive at the location, and their attitude toward the situation (from my view) was not as urgent or prepared as the situation warranted. A helicopter was flown in at about 90 minutes after the accident, but across the river so transporting her took much much longer than it should have. The SAR team seemed inexperienced and very slow.
After the female victim was moved (2 hours after her fall), we made our rappel and quickly left the wall. Done for the day we headed to the Terrebonne Depot, where we ran into other climbers who had heard of the accident; including two acquaintances of the man on the rope swing. His name is John, and evidently had been talking of doing the rope swing that weekend to others. The people who knew him said they knew it was a very bad idea to do such a stunt on a busy summer weekend. He did it anyways.
That was my view of the accident, best wishes for the victims' recovery. It's a shame that they were at no fault for this incident. They seemed to have had a great time on Monkey Space, it's too bad that that experience was eclipsed by someone else's poor decisions.
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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Jul 12, 2011 - 03:02pm PT
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Thanks for posting the eye witness account here.
Can you add any clarity on how the rope swing and rap line were configured?
It sounds like the rap line must have been anchored in the notch or at least hung up somehow such that when the swinger grabbed the rope he essentially pulled it taunt whisking the two victims off.
Thanks.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Jul 12, 2011 - 03:02pm PT
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^^^^^
The man on the swing began yelling remarks like "Oh no!" "I didn't think of that"
I'd say he didn't THINK at all!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 12, 2011 - 04:17pm PT
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The people who knew him said they knew it was a very bad idea to do such a stunt on a busy summer weekend.
Climb on climbing gear; jump on jumping gear. Learn to base if you want to jump off sh#t - don't f*#k around inappropriately on climbing gear.
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ec
climber
ca
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Jul 12, 2011 - 04:37pm PT
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Flossed?
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Jul 12, 2011 - 04:39pm PT
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Thanks Randy, that puts things into perspective for me. I think I was confusing arbitration .vs. mediation.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Jul 12, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
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In terms of criticizing the SAR response, keep in mind that they are volunteers. They do not sit in a station ready to respond to a call.
The sheriff determines that there is a need for a technical rescue and calls the team. That may take time. The team then pages its volunteers to come in from whatever activity they were engaged in. So the volunteer may be 30 minutes up a trail with their family and now needs to get home, get their gear and report. They are briefed and then move into the field. Some may be comfortable on cliffs yet concerned about showering more debris on already injured patients, while others may be on the team for their medical skills, navigation skills, etc. Most never were or will ever be good techincal climbers. However, they do know how to move a battered victim without causing more damage or creating more patients.
Helicopters are quite tricky, and resources are very scarce with the wars taking most military resources out of the NW. Dust, snow, cliffs all present hazards which may cause a helicopter to crash. Victims being transported by choppers have been in choppers that went down, and their families have sued for plenty. So if the chopper won't land near a dusty scree slope, there is probably a very good reason why. The boat across the river saves hours of moving the litter back towards the bridge.
During an operation, many folks may not have a task to do at that moment in time. They may be waiting for the patient to be assessed, packaged, another part of the system to be set up, etc. It is as agonizing for them to be still for a moment as it is for you to watch someone suffer. The banter between them helps them deal with a very stressful situation. From the many missions I have participated on, it always seems to take forever. But the medics are doing everything they can to ensure that the patient won't be further injured, and they really want to reduce the pain with meds if they can.
If you think you can improve the overall rescue operation, then join. http://www.dcsarinc.org/ My husband and I plan to do so when we move to Redmond full time in a couple of years.
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Richard
climber
Bend, OR.
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Jul 12, 2011 - 06:18pm PT
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Thanks Seamstress for the defense. I volunteer with DCSSAR (Deschutes County Sheriff's Search and Rescue). We had folks on scene in about an hour. Getting there in that hour is damn good considering the drive from Bend is 1/2 an hour. Adding the time for callouts, assembling, deploying, and hiking in......!!!
Crossing the river is by far the fastest and easiest way to access this area. The hike over Misery Ridge with the gear needed would take considerably longer. And we do two or three missions every year in this area, mostly hikers twisting of breaking ankles on the switchbacks.
And without re-saying what seamstress said about the Helo....she's absolutely correct.
Seamstress.....If you're interested in joining us, lemme know:
richard.adler@deschutessar.org
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 12, 2011 - 08:30pm PT
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Are the police investigating what happened?
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jul 12, 2011 - 11:36pm PT
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Were the swingers already doing their thing when the involved party arrived?
Cuz when I see antics happening I usually split.
Lame and unfortunate accident. Hope everyone heals up.
Loved Monkeyface...no other parties around.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Jul 12, 2011 - 11:50pm PT
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Tragic and shameful all at the same time..
Thoughts to the survivors
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jul 13, 2011 - 12:06am PT
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hey there say, seamstress.... wow, thanks for sharing all that info, for to help all of understand what goes on, for these rescues...
*hard stuff, too...
thanks for the share...
:)
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Jason D
Trad climber
mn
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Jul 13, 2011 - 09:53am PT
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I was there but didn't see the actual accident. I was climbing First Kiss and had just left on the traverse pitch when I heard something going on. It looked like a guided group to me but there is no mention of that in the article. On the way to First Kiss I stopped to watch the group crossing the slack line into the cave. It looked like a bunch of teenage kids with two or so older adults.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jul 13, 2011 - 11:55am PT
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Cuz when I see antics happening I usually split.
Cuz when I see antics happening I usually split.
Cuz when I see antics happening I usually split.
Cuz when I see antics happening I usually split.
Cuz when I see antics happening I usually split.
Cuz when I see antics happening I usually split.
Cuz when I see antics happening I usually split.
Amen bro. I hate mooing and baaaaaing at a crowded crag.
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Paul T
climber
Bend, Oregon
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Jul 16, 2011 - 06:48pm PT
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This was a most unfortunate accident due to bad timing, a lack of awareness, and poor foresight on the part of the rope-swinger. This event will inevitably result in greater awareness--as any accident of this nature does.
As I have stated in a verbose post on cascadeclimbers.com, I find the decision to chop the anchor bolts for the rope swing to be a misdirected act, which fails to get at the real issue. I have done this particular rope swing at least 5 times in the past--as have many others--without any issues; all it takes is a healthy awareness to make it a safe and invigorating activity. I'm sure that if bolts/anchors were chopped on a popular route due to one individual's negligent decision that resulted in an injury, the climbing community would be quite infuriated. The principle here is the same, regardless of whether one likes/dislikes the idea of rope-swinging.
I've known Ian for many years, and believe he had good intentions in his actions. None the less, I still feel that chopping the bolts was a rash decision made in a semi-dictatorial fashion, which fails to get at the root of the issue. I am excited to see the bolts replaced, and individuals utilizing the swing responsibly in the future.
-paul t
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jul 16, 2011 - 09:55pm PT
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Someone is still laying in a hospital bed and you are talking about putting the bolts back in. Remember, it wasn't the person on the rope swing that was critically injured but innocent passerbys.
Sounds like you are willing to assume the liability for said swing bolts and any injuries/deaths/traumas that may occur from their use.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 16, 2011 - 10:46pm PT
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Well, Paul has a point. It is as though someone takes it upon themselves to cut every climbing rope in the Pacific Northwest.
The problem is not the ropes.
The problem was not the bolts.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Jul 16, 2011 - 10:50pm PT
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Ian is the state park employee, ranger. Like 99.9% of the rock out there, it isn't owned by climbers. You have to abide by the management decisions made.
Don't screw it up at a place where climbers are embraced. Heck, the formations are even labelled. If you want to swing, put one up in your yard.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 16, 2011 - 11:00pm PT
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Seamstress, Ian writes:
I work for state parks, but I am not a ranger at the park. This action was completely off duty.
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chris vaughan
climber
bend, or
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Jul 16, 2011 - 11:15pm PT
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Sounds like you are willing to assume the liability for said swing bolts and any injuries/deaths/traumas that may occur from their use.
Sensitivities aside, do you realize where this "logic" leads?
So now I've gotta go chop my routes and find all my tat to keep the lawyers off my case. Alan Watts is F'ed! I can't imagine how many broken ankles and crushed egos that guy is responsible for? (sarcasm in case you didn't pick it up)
Aside, Ian is not a ranger (as he clarified here or in CC.) Further more, if he were, he would be under greater obligation to explain his actions.
I wretched a little when someone says "oh so your a ranger,... then it must be ok" Regardless of the policy or action, our government officials are accountable to us. We deserve their explanations... OK, that is a bit unrelated sorry for the rant.
Perhaps there should be another thread separately discussing bolt removal in this case. I am stoked that Liz was upgraded to fair condition and maybe this thread should be focused on her and her partner's recoveries. But, it is what it is.
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Darwin
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jul 16, 2011 - 11:32pm PT
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Rope swinging is what 6 year old kids do when I take them to an indoor gym. Maybe you should expand your horizons?
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Jul 16, 2011 - 11:39pm PT
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OK - Ian wasn't operating in that role. I don't think we should be devolving into a little bolt war over a swing. We got it pretty good at Smith.
Perhaps I am a relic of the past - concerned more about people and the ability to climb. If we get "out of control", they will manage us. Yikes.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 17, 2011 - 12:06am PT
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I am certainly not an advocate of rope swinging, not anticipating that I will ever partake.....however, that does not put me in a position to instantly judge that the activity is not worthy of being done at Smith Rock, or anyone else.
For all I know, rock climbing should be banned in favor of rope swinging, which I'd imagine could be done in far fewer places. I don't seriously advocate that, but I don't think that advocates of one sport get to decide that another sport should be the one banned.
That is certainly the position that single track riders would like to take vs hikers!
Taking precipitate action in the immediate aftermath of an accident, with the attendant emotion involved, sets up the precident for how things will go for dealing with climbing related incidents, which will almost always end up being bad for all involved.
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Paul T
climber
Bend, Oregon
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Jul 19, 2011 - 06:32pm PT
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Taking precipitate action in the immediate aftermath of an accident, with the attendent emotion involved, sets up the precident for how things will go for dealing with climbing related incidents, which will almost always end up being bad for all involved.
Perfectly articulated. Thank you!
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jul 19, 2011 - 07:24pm PT
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Maybe we should whine about this online until the park service is forced to make a policy about this? Paul, talking to you. I wonder the officials in charge would say when they catch up to this online sh#t storm?? I think we'd all be better off if this wasn't a topic for them. Only real way to get there is to keep it off the net. Walk up and discuss it face to face with folks over there. Ian's there all the time, as are lots of regulars. Do the the right thing, why start a storm where folks that can't even spell "Smith" or "Rock" have never been there and don't want to go but also don't know where it is, can start to rage over some real or imagined slight? Leave this off the internet. Right now this is legal. Force the authorities hand openly by starting an unnecessary sh#t storm (ie, I WANT MY CIGARETTES NURSE RATCHET") and the line will be drawn for all of us, which is not where you or anyone wants it. Which means that putting one up next on the Great Roof would be out of the question. There are some other possible prime locations where there are no folks around.
Please, please keep it off the computer. Use your phone. Face to face lobby folks. Let the conflict happen face to face via a friendly campfire and beer discussion. Please.
Edited to add:
Ian Caldwell put this over on Cascadeclimbers.com:This swing has changed from people swinging risking their own lives, to nearly killing 2 innocent by-standers. I think this accident is horrible and should never happen again. Now we have 2 innocent people who are severely injured and will be impacted forever. I have heard the extent of their injuries and it is not good. Joel is very upset about this and was going to remove the bolts himself within a week. We both discussed it and we felt the sooner the better.
This is a very high profile incident that runs the risk of endangering our ability to continue enjoying the opportunities that we have right now in the park. Newer stuff in the park like highlining and even climbing could potentially be at risk.
This has to do with the big picture that is very complicated, I will not go into the details here. I gave it a lot of thought. I have read every post here and considered what everyone has said.
BTW. I talked to Alan Watts about this today. He did not put the bolts in, never swung on it and agreed with my actions.
We can be, should be, and currently ARE self-regulating, but no matter what the outcome, keeping it off of a public forum is a solid and positive thing to do.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Jul 19, 2011 - 07:43pm PT
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I don't think that advocates of one sport get to decide that another sport should be the one banned.
Rope swinging is now a "sport?"
Get a perspective. It is a fun diversion requiring no particular skill, dedication or training (though some common sense is clearly needed).
Swing away. Just do it where you aren't going to possibly hit or entangle climbers.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jul 19, 2011 - 08:27pm PT
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If rope swinging is a sport, then so is masturbating.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 19, 2011 - 08:39pm PT
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Rope swinging is now a "sport?"
Get a perspective. It is a fun diversion requiring no particular skill, dedication or training (though some common sense is clearly needed).
Swing away. Just do it where you aren't going to possibly hit or entangle climbers.
You're right.
No SERIOUS sportsman would consider rock climbing a sport. What are the rules? what is the scoring system? Who calls the penalties? Most importantly, how do you win? When is it in the Olympics?
So you ready to drop the idiot fratboy mindset? I am absolutely positive that at some point in time, your description was applied to climbing.
As they say, your freedom to point your finger ends where my nose begins.
You CANNOT be an advocate for freedom, if you turn around and advocate for taking away other's freedom.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jul 19, 2011 - 09:39pm PT
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I LOVE to rope swing. I think pretty much everyone loves to go on swings, super fun. This isn't a question of limiting freedom to rope swing, as much as it is enforcing swings not being allowed where it endangers pedestrians, which this swing has proven to do. They are not saying you can't swing or put in anchors for a swing somewhere else. In fact the opposite appears to be true with the Park, they are trying not to have to micromanage. Swings are allowed. However if they endanger unsuspecting individuals not involved with the swing, then they need to be somewhere else. Plain and simple.
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Kevmojo
climber
ID
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Jul 20, 2011 - 10:25am PT
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I hope the Deschutes County Sheriff's Office is investigating this incident.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 20, 2011 - 12:23pm PT
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"Rope swinging is now a "sport?"
In the accepted sports we have a huge debate about doping. Sports all put some sort of quantification on performance and there necessarily has to be a never ending effort to prevent cheating.
Climbers talk endlessly about freedom to do as you please and there is no examination whatsoever of "cheating". Rock climbing can't become a sport. I always called it a pursuit.
Sport climbing where protection has been removed from the activity could be called a sport if the ascents were timed and style points were assigned. Actually this brings it full circle and makes it sort of a free form gymnastics. I am for that. Just take the word climbing away. It isn't climbing. Looking at current day interest I think free form gymnastics would become as interesting as real gymnastics, if it were unencumbered by any protection system. It would become acceptably high ball bouldering with style points. That could actually become interesting to watch.
As for "swinging" I don't offhand see where performance can be gauged. Maybe sensors could be used to measure how loudly the swinger can yell? Or perhaps their musical value rated? If swings were set up so that the swinger who jumps poorly at the start smashes into a rock I think the activity could make it onto reality TV. Got to work some lions into the act though. It needs buzz for the paying audience.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 21, 2011 - 12:41am PT
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"Swinging" is no more, or less, a sport than rock climbing. That is, neither is. But both can be lots of fun, and mostly harmless. Anyone here who claims that he/she doesn't like swinging is lying - all six year olds like such things, and who amongst this particular bunch of galoots isn't in touch with her/his inner six year old? Swinging around on a swing or a rope - all great fun!
Admittedly, there is a bit more room for competitiveness and ranking in rock climbing that in swinging.
As I think John put it, it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. In another context, perhaps.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 21, 2011 - 01:58am PT
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Oh well, the swing judges only ever gave me threes and fours for style anyway. Even that rotten redhair girl from down the street who I gave a tootsie roll to.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 21, 2011 - 02:25am PT
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Red hair!
Anders. You expect tootsie rolls to work with a Kelt?
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Calm is but a Wall
Trad climber
SF
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Jul 21, 2011 - 10:01am PT
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Anyone have Lee Dingemans contact information -- phone or email? I climbed w/ him on the East Side (Calif.) in April and would like to extend my good wishes and invite him back to California.
Jonathan Howland
jhowland@urbanschool.org
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jul 21, 2011 - 12:08pm PT
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Any updates on the condition of the victims?
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James Doty
Trad climber
Phoenix, Az.
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Jul 21, 2011 - 01:45pm PT
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Hemmingway said "There are only three real sports, bull-fighting, car racing and mountain climbing. The rest are mere games."
I think bull fighting is bull sh#t but I get the point. Fine motor skills and precision movement is required and the cost of failure may mean death.
I don't think rope swinging qualifies.
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James Doty
Trad climber
Phoenix, Az.
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Jul 21, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
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I am just commenting on the sport/no sport discussion. I have no problem with people doing it if they aren't f*#king other people up. And it harm none do what thou wilt.
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Paul T
climber
Bend, Oregon
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Jul 21, 2011 - 03:38pm PT
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Maybe we should whine about this online until the park service is forced to make a policy about this? Paul, talking to you. I wonder the officials in charge would say when they catch up to this online sh#t storm?? I think we'd all be better off if this wasn't a topic for them. Only real way to get there is to keep it off the net. Walk up and discuss it face to face with folks over there. Ian's there all the time, as are lots of regulars. Do the the right thing, why start a storm where folks that can't even spell "Smith" or "Rock" have never been there and don't want to go but also don't know where it is, can start to rage over some real or imagined slight? Leave this off the internet. Right now this is legal. Force the authorities hand openly by starting an unnecessary sh#t storm (ie, I WANT MY CIGARETTES NURSE RATCHET") and the line will be drawn for all of us, which is not where you or anyone wants it.
Couchmaster, talking to you. I fail to see how anything that has been discussed on this forum jeopardizes climbing, swinging, hiking, slacking, etc in the park. Do the "officials in charge" track how many posts on each thread pertain to their area of oversight, and when it reaches some arbitrary benchmark they step in? On average, how many individuals are assigned to the Supertopo surveillance detail, and what sort of qualifications do they have--just curious? Is it really safe to discuss such issues via cell phones, given the NSA's current monitoring capabilities? To summarize, I don't buy into the idea that the State Parks are actively surveying climbing threads, though if this is true, I don't see anything on this site to feel concerned about them finding. If someone is taking the time to read these meandering posts, while collecting a paycheck generated by state taxes, we have bigger issues than bolting restrictions to concern ourselves with.
And just to be clear, you are only concerned with my contributions to this site, considering you addressed me specifically? So, if I discontinue posting, others can carry on--is this correct? If you really are concerned about the number of posts ("sh#t storm"), then why not send me a private post to avoid contributing to that body of evidence which you are simultaneously damning?
Lastly, if you really want someone to be receptive you your suggestions, don't open your post with biting sarcasm, you will usually just get the same in response.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Jul 21, 2011 - 03:46pm PT
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This is not a private forum. Some government officials who can make decisions about public access do look at websties and occasionally post to them. WHen you post, think of it as what you would say in a public place with lots of people you don't know standing nearby with the opportunity to listen to every word.
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Paul T
climber
Bend, Oregon
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:11pm PT
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This is not a private forum. Some government officials who can make decisions about public access do look at websties and occasionally post to them. WHen you post, think of it as what you would say in a public place with lots of people you don't know standing nearby with the opportunity to listen to every word
Ok, this is getting creepy. Am I naked in this "public place with lots of people I don't know standing nearby listening to every word"? Like those unnerving dreams about showing up for school and realizing you're completely unclothed.
I don't think government officials would be too concerned with this little chat concerning de-bolting etiquette. More likely, they would laugh and feel as though they have succeeded in creating a subculture of individuals who take policing themselves to an absurd level.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:19pm PT
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I sat across the table from these folks trying to represent climbers as responsible people. Print and electronic media have served as exhibits to refute that representation. The press can be creative, and that ends up back on the superintendant's desk. We have seen postings from NPS and state folks on this site.
I'm not advocating censorship. I'm just saying this is not just a chat between you and me.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 22, 2011 - 12:46pm PT
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Last I checked the Interior Dept. and most state park department staffs had access to and know how to use email, an intranet and the internet and you could tell that by the speed of the Delicate Arch response. The NW is a small place when it gets down to it, perceptions count, and Smith is known the world over for climbing so guess what? They have a staff that's actually tuned-in to the goings on and antics one of its major user constituencies.
You only have to see incidents like this, Vernal Falls, and any number of others to realize if you make something like a swing a publicly seminal part of the Smith climbing experience then you can be guaranteed a percentage of the jumpers will be totally clueless. It's simply unavoidable as has just been demonstrated and the 'fallout' will be such that the park administration will in fact have to deal with it in a public, and likely negative, way.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 22, 2011 - 01:57pm PT
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"More likely, they would laugh and feel as though they have succeeded in creating a subculture of individuals who take policing themselves to an absurd level."
At a time when reductions in force even among public employees are coming onto the table you may rest assured there is little laughing. Indeed even in the absence of economic difficulties, this is not the spirit in which managers approach their job. The then superintendent of JTNP phrased it very well when he said, "It is our job to manage JTNP. We will do our job."
When the actions of one user of public land causes injury to another user I think we all count on the managers to do their job.
This situation will be managed.
The management problem at Smith Rock seems very straightforward compared to that at Vernal Falls. Rest assured people in the NPS are just as puzzled as you or I as to what more could be done at Vernal Falls. Right now the received wisdom is, "What we have done already is what best meets the requirements of the public." Time will tell however. Changes were deemed necessary, and were taken, on Half Dome.
If the NPS were to bite the cost bullet and station personnel at Vernal Falls I suppose it would be useful, statistically, to do so only during spring runoff. But consider. If the ranger was pulled on a Wednesday and there was a death on Thursday, what do you suppose we would hear being said?
People are far harder to manage than even cats. The deaths at Vernal Falls in the presence of both signs and a fence and the spirit evidenced in some posts on ST are sufficient to remove any doubts we might have had on that point.
Edit:
Joe:
I think the situation at Vernal Falls is hard to manage because there is no way to tell who is going to climb over the fence and it takes just a moment. You would have to station personnel there constantly. If swingers at Smith pose a recurring danger to other visitors, the act amounts to reckless endangerment and persons can be arrested and charged. If the act becomes an integral part of the climbing scene, you can draw the conclusion as to what may become necessary better than can I.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:19pm PT
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The management problem at Smith Rock seems very straightforward compared to that at Vernal Falls.
The point was once you make something seminal to a visit - like Vernal Falls at Yosemite - there are no management measures on earth that will prevent Murphy and Darwin from having their way. In the case of Smith if the swing became a must-do aspect of climbing in the park it would become a regular and likely annual scene of bad juju.
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dr. juicer kaniglio
Trad climber
san diego, ca
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Jul 24, 2011 - 10:57pm PT
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Liz, Nice to talk with you yesterday. Glad your recovery is going well. Sounds like you will be climbing again soon enough.. Call me if you guys need anything during your trip to the Eastside!
Om, Justin M
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 24, 2011 - 11:07pm PT
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The press can be creative,
Boy, there's an understatement!
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John Ely
Trad climber
DC
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This does sound like negligence or reckless endangerment to me. I frankly think introduction of the law in this case would actually help distinguish climbers from yoyos. Isn't that climbers actually policing/purging themselves, rather than dimwits suing a gear company?
Dan Osman was a great performance artist who may have banged the head of a belayer or two on the Rostrum, but never recklessly endangered other near by pedestrians, hikers, climbers, or other innocent people.
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Archer
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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You nailed it couchmaster. Climbing is fun, rope swings are fun, highlining is fun, life is fun; and it's all f*#king dangerous. I really hope that they keep the swing open... never before has the park chopped bolts and Smith, and I hope things remain this way.
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