psychedelics, consciousness and things of beauty

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drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Jul 7, 2011 - 01:36am PT

It got heavier.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jul 7, 2011 - 01:39am PT
There's a lot of good information on these pages. I'm looking forward to Doug's book which I hope he will advertise on here on ST, and I'd also be interested in a reference to Base's neighbor's web page.

There was another thread here on LSD which had a lot of good info as well.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1120694/The-LSD-thread

As for flashbacks, I can assure Pate and anyone else, that they do exist. I was surprised when Doug said that peyote is the mildest of the halucinogens which wasn't my experience so I must have taken too much. What I did experience afterwards was a solid month of the sky in Boulder being a bright fuscia pink all night long and when it rained, it came down in fuscia colored rain drops. Gradually that faded until a couple of months later when I went to see the movie Black Orpheus, about Carnival in Rio, and it started all over again with everything being more colorful and shimmering. That lasted a good week.

Since I took this stuff before it was made illegal or was common, nobody I knew had ever experienced a flashback so that was a little unnerving. In any case, it was obvious to me that it was not something to be played with. Nowdays I attribute what happened to me having large amounts of natural serotonin in my brain so that the effect was magnified.

I have had similar experiences occur naturally after periods of intense meditation and once spontaneously after solving my first koan. I'm also incredibly susceptible to amoebas which has been co-related with large amounts of naturally produced serotonin in the intestines.

And finally Werner, there is a really interesting story told by Ram Dass, formerly Richard Alpert, of Leary and Alpert fame, when he first met his Guru in India and was telling him of the wonders of LSD. The Guru's reply got me interested in meditation when he told Ram Das, that you can get to the same place naturally with meditation. The Guru then ate a double dose of very potent acid at Ram Dass's request and apparently was unaffected. After that Ram Dass took up a spiritual practice.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 7, 2011 - 01:47am PT
Wow, a lot more here,

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1120694&msg=1121228#msg1121228

Much to read about.

.....

Looks like Jan referenced it, too.

.....


Pate,

I think you are rich in beta. Share some.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Jul 7, 2011 - 01:56am PT
Jan, I think Leary told that same story. I think they had the same guru, probably before he became Ram Dass. Cool stuff. The concept that the same state of mind can be achieved through meditation sounds similar to what DR is talking about. I wonder how electricity, perhaps modulated, might have similar effects. The brain is dependent on electrical processes as well as chemical. I also remember hearing about a researcher who induced altered states through eye movement and blinking rates. I think this has something to do with those kids in Japan that had epileptic seizures from watching a certain video.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 7, 2011 - 01:58am PT
Does this read familiar?
The first time I saw, "A Clockwork Orange," I was dosing. Hoh Man! The first time I saw, "Star Wars," ditto. As I was coming out of the the theater, my buddy tossed a frisbee up in the air and it was coming down right for my head. I didn't see it and at the last second after he yelled, I turned and caught it inches from my face and calmly said, "Use the force, Luke." We laughed for what seems an hour, but probably at least a solid five minutes or two.

Hahaha!

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1120694&msg=1121291#msg1121291

I'm researching. LOL!

Such a noob here.

.....

Pate wrote,
LSD exposes the intricate connectivity of all things.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Jul 7, 2011 - 02:12am PT
Gee, that sounds awfully familiar. It was good to be a young experimenter.

I like Pate's quote. So much said with such few words.

edit- Did you see the story about Castle Rock? Even more fun.

Doug Robinson

Trad climber
Santa Cruz
Jul 7, 2011 - 02:20am PT
I once ate half a stem too much of shrooms. We were skiing, days into the backcountry, climbing Mather Pass. I seemed to be having trouble keeping my skis on the snow...

Being a lightweight is fine, as long as you know it and don't gulp down big doses. I figure it goes along with having a naturally low thresshold for visionary experience. And that is most excellent.

I'll have to check out The Road to Eleusis. Sounds intriguing.

In the late 50s Wasson sent samples of his shrooms from Mexico to Hoffman, who first figured out the structure of psilocybin. By 1962 Hoffman was in Mexico himself, tracking down salvia divinorum, a very interesting plant from the mint family with a uniquely-shaped psychedelic molecule that is still legal here and now.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Jul 7, 2011 - 02:40am PT
When a person understands a few things about the historical, psychological, social, etc. implications of the psychedelic experience and then decides to do the experiment themselves, it can be a very enlightening experience, not just a really long buzz. Have fun, be safe, experience a higher intelligence, but ultimately you must come down, and to me , that is the real terrifying aspect of the journey.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jul 7, 2011 - 05:49am PT
Ayahuasca users actually had increased their Serotonin receptor sites and decreased or cured depression

Do you have a source for this? If Ayahuasca does this, I'll bet other psychedelics do too and meditation as well and that's part of the reason retreat centers and ashrams are full of people who first did psychedelics.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 7, 2011 - 07:25am PT
From an article in National Geographic

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/0603/features/peru.html

quote is on page two of the article

"...At the vanguard of this research is Charles Grob, M.D., a professor of psychiatry and pediatrics at UCLA's School of Medicine. In 1993 Dr. Grob launched the Hoasca Project, the first in-depth study of the physical and psychological effects of ayahuasca on humans. His team went to Brazil, where the plant mixture can be taken legally, to study members of a native church, the União do Vegetal (UDV), who use ayahuasca as a sacrament, and compared them to a control group that had never ingested the substance. The studies found that all the ayahuasca-using UDV members had experienced remission without recurrence of their addictions, depression, or anxiety disorders. In addition, blood samples revealed a startling discovery: Ayahuasca seems to give users a greater sensitivity to serotonin—one of the mood-regulating chemicals produced by the body—by increasing the number of serotonin receptors on nerve cells.

Unlike most common antidepressants, which Grob says can create such high levels of serotonin that cells may actually compensate by losing many of their serotonin receptors, the Hoasca Project showed that ayahuasca strongly enhances the body's ability to absorb the serotonin that's naturally there.

"Ayahuasca is perhaps a far more sophisticated and effective way to treat depression than SSRIs [antidepressant drugs]," Grob concludes, adding that the use of SSRIs is "a rather crude way" of doing it. And ayahuasca, he insists, has great potential as a long-term solution. ..
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Jul 7, 2011 - 07:31am PT
A more technical explanation here

from

http://www.ayahuasca.com/science/the-ayahuasca-effect/

What I learned was that studies had been done on members of the UDV, one of the religions that use the tea as a sacrament, which indicated ayahuasca was a powerful anti-depressant which treated the cause of the condition rather than the symptom. In short, most depression is caused by problems with the way the brain processes serotonin, which could be called the “mood” neurotransmitter. Prescription antidepressants work by various means to keep serotonin in the synapses longer. Ayahuasca contains DMT, which bonds to the 5-htp receptor sites, the same sites as serotonin. The DMT bonds at a higher rate, and the body adapts to this by increasing the number of 5-htp receptor sites, making better use of natural serotonin levels.

The UDV studies stated regular drinkers of the tea were less depressed, more social and more organized than the control groups, and that there were no physical or mental side effects to long term use in healthy individuals. Ayahuasca seemed to be an anti-depressant that treated the cause, had a better psychological outcome, and no side effects. The final factor in my decision was some of the people who I met at the conference. Many of them were long term drinkers of the tea from countries where it has been legalized. I found them to be some of the most grounded, sane, kind, and generally healthy people I had ever met.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Jul 7, 2011 - 10:37am PT
Can be over done, but shouldn't be missed.

i've heard some promising things about Ayahuasca lately.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Jul 7, 2011 - 10:50am PT
I coulda sworn pate posted here...
I musta been hallucinating.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Jul 7, 2011 - 11:00am PT
It seems psychedelics demonstrate what's already been proven with other brain studies involving tumor and accident victims- that the brain is much more flexible than we imagined only a few years ago. Of course that's what the world's meditation traditions have been saying for a couple thousand years now.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 7, 2011 - 11:30am PT
Fort,
if for no other reason than to better understand what it's like to "walk a mile in another man's moccassins".

Exactly. Or merely to better understand a different brain state or two as a function of mere chemical differences or circuitry variations or as means to greater savvy regarding our moods or "mental lives" as a function of such.

William James, quoted by Sam Harris
One conclusion was forced upon my mind at that time, and my impression of its truth has ever since remained unshaken. It is that our normal waking consciousness, rational consciousness as we call it, is but one special type of consciousness, whilst all about it, parted from it by the filmiest of screens, there lie potential forms of consciousness entirely different. We may go through life without suspecting their existence; but apply the requisite stimulus, and at a touch they are there in all their completeness, definite types of mentality which probably somewhere have their field of application and adaptation. No account of the universe in its totality can be final which leaves these other forms of consciousness quite disregarded. How to regard them is the question,—for they are so discontinuous with ordinary consciousness. Yet they may determine attitudes though they cannot furnish formulas, and open a region though they fail to give a map. At any rate, they forbid a premature closing of our accounts with reality.

Varieties of Religious Experience

.....

Pate,

You should not have removed those posts, they were insightful, they gave me reason to think twice about any interest I might have. Now they're gone. Oh, oh.
phylp

Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
Jul 7, 2011 - 01:00pm PT
Stanislav Grof developed a technique - holotropic breathwork - as a way to stimulate the insights and experiences of LSD and other hallucinogens. You can take workshops in the technique, for example I've seen them offered at Spirit Rock. I spent a day doing it once as a part of a long term group training, and it was a profound experience. But this was not undertaken in a recreational context.

As a youth I did have a number of experiences of hallucinogens in a recreational context. Some of them were quite beautiful and extraordinary at the time, but I have not had any interest in them for a long time now. It seems to me that nothing compares to reality.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 7, 2011 - 01:56pm PT
So apart from rock climbing... and the female form... my life interest is life strategies... research and development of life strategies for the practice of living ... also the codification or modeling of life strategies for the practice of living that people might eventually "trust in" as means to enhance their lives.

So is "tripping" once or twice (if not more) a smart life strategy? What have we decided? Maybe there is no straight up yes or no afterall.

Like climbing rock, a lot of people would say it is just crazy risking one's life in this way. "On a bunch of rocks." "And for what?" And a lot of the people who would say this are not even aware of climbers like Alex.

Of course I am glad to have had the climbing experience. I feel it has enriched my life. Kinda like my science education. But with more risks to be sure.

But for the grace of the gods go I.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Jul 7, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
It seems to me to be just an individual's choice. To codify or say "we" you are overlooking the fact that as individuals, we all have a unique personality and a unique set of choices to make. A few warnings are always a good thing to help make decisions though. Codifying is what theologists do.

Maybe there is no straight up yes or no afterall.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A community of hairless apes
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 7, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
I didn't say ONE codification to fit everybody. That's the very least of my interests. And I'd see something like that totally unrealistic as well. Sorry if I gave that impression.

Codifying as I used the term simply means systemizing or modeling. Different models for different folks. Like different toolkits or toolbelts. Or different gear slings as a function of route circumstances.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Jul 7, 2011 - 02:11pm PT
I misunderstood, sorry.
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