Bolting on stance - ground up - leading

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Messages 141 - 160 of total 209 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 30, 2013 - 09:00am PT
Urmas I said that in my first post. Gotta red point...

Shakin' Man, that's seamstress. Prolly 12b realistically. Here I'm drilling the 4th (and last on the fa) bolt from a hook in 1989. Anyone who thinks that free climbing 5.12, setting that marginal hook and drilling is the same as rapping in is, well, I've met Urmas and I don't want to be snarky but...

Seamstress/Courtright Reservoir/1989.
Seamstress/Courtright Reservoir/1989.
Credit: Julie Lazar

I'm gonna die.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Mar 30, 2013 - 09:24am PT
Nothing like having some sport climber tell you that your effort on the FA doesn't matter! LOL

You take away from the climbing experience what you put into it.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 30, 2013 - 09:28am PT
Bingo Steve. Rapping in routes is a memorable as a morning fart really. Counter that with some hairball lead with hair ball hooking to get bolts in and youve a memory to last the life.
Urmas

Social climber
Sierra Eastside
Mar 30, 2013 - 01:21pm PT
I'm really not trying to pick a fight here. But I would like to point out that in MY first post, I said that hooking is more adventurous for the first ascentionist than rappelling. It seems you are deliberately overlooking that comment. My point was not in any way intended to compare the relative experiences of the FA team, Rapping vs hooking. I was just making the obvious (to me)observation that viewed from ten years down the line, a route that was done top down, or ground up using hooks will be viewed about the same, in terms of ethics - not style. I have done, and continue to do routes both ways, as well as ground up trad, and stance bolted. I know the differences.

Take the Bachar-Yerian for example. It was done in a very bold style. That's admirable, in fact that's largely why it's the test piece it is. Ethically, though, some bolts were installed using direct aid. Whether it's dicey aid, as in hooking, or bomber aid, as in rappelling, it's still aid. I'm not suggesting it could have been done any other way.

My point is simply that I see a greater distinction between a ground up onsight free ascent and an aid ascent, than I do among various styles of aid ascents (rapping vs hooking).

Steve, I wonder if your irony went over some heads!




Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 30, 2013 - 01:34pm PT
I'm really not trying to pick a fight here...

Me neither. Fighting over climbing style and ethics is so 35 years ago...

I'm just having an OT chat with climbers about climbing on a political forum.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Mar 30, 2013 - 01:45pm PT
I believe we are speaking STYLE here, so Yes there is a HUGE diff between g/u hooking 50 to 100' out praying things hold till the hanger goes on vs casually rapping and drilling.. As much diff as clipping bolts every ten feet to wandering up some slab in search of the next bolt 50' above..
Urmas

Social climber
Sierra Eastside
Mar 30, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
No argument there, Ron!

And ksolem, I fully respect your experience, and can only imagine 5.12 climbing leading to a marginal hook placement!
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 30, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
Sorry I'm going OT for a minute... Urmas, I'll never forget the last time we crossed paths. I'm sure the day was less memorable for you. It was late summer 2004 at the Dike Wall. I did that 11a thing that goes up kind of a rib/dike right of the nose, you said something complimentary to me when i came down. But here's why I remember this day. The next thing I did was get on that 11b rig that goes up to a big undercling flake. I've always liked this climb but on this day it didn't like me, and somehow I ended up tearing my right shoulder badly which led to surgery and many months of rehab (it's fine now.)

I remember that some people on the ground heard the crunch when that shoulder blew. Someone said "What was that!?" Yuck.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Mar 30, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
Ksolem, do you think you could have done something differently to avoid this injury? Like did you forget to stretch that day, or did some weird motion on the climb, or had any other trigger? Injuries suck.

After my first summer of hiking/mountaineering (in 2010) I developed a knee problem. Probably due to boulder hopping with a heavy pack, or doing full 'Sierra Challenge' that year. Not sure. Had to stop running completely. Still could hike, but couldn't run more than half a mile or so. So about 4 month ago I tried to resume running little by little. Worked my way up to running 8+ miles finally. Feels good. Getting better running shoes might of helped too..
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 30, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
Ksolem, do you think you could have done something differently to avoid this injury?

Nothing against Yoga per se, but leading up to this I was led toward shoulder hyper-mobility by a particular teacher. After the injury I began a regular Pilates practice first for rehab, now as a profession. It became apparent to me during and after rehab that I had made a bad trade of mobility for stability. Of course natural range of motion is good but I went too far. If I knew then what I know now it would never have happened.
can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Mar 30, 2013 - 04:40pm PT
Tradman;
"URMAS, If you have ever had a hook pop on you, you would know the difference;)"

I was belaying Urmas on the first pitch of Mescalito. He had to do a couple of hook moves and left the first one for pro or hadn't grabbed it yet, when the hook he was on blew. The hook he left caught his fall, albeit the hook got straightened out to 45 degrees. I guess he does know what it feels like.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Mar 30, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
Well then he must have some peculer rappeling habbits if he thinks rapping is the same as hooking;)
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Mar 30, 2013 - 05:04pm PT
It became apparent to me during and after rehab that I had made a bad trade of mobility for stability.

Are you saying too much stretching in the upper extremities is not always smart? Any particular exercises you would recommend that could help with stability in that region?
wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Mar 30, 2013 - 08:25pm PT
To go back to the OP...."drilling seems to be a lot harder then climbing"....the partners I put up climbs with rate the stances your drilling from on a scale of 1 to 10 rather then moves on the climb. But I've put it to the Warbler who knows a thing or two about bolting from stances that it may be harder to on-site very run out face climbs because you don't have a bolt kit with you and can't ethically add a bolt to a route which you can do when putting up the FA. He agreed that some routes may be harder on site but bolting from stances Is certainly hard and scary...
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Mar 30, 2013 - 09:16pm PT
The situations where on sighting a face route w/o bolt kit is harder than the FA are rare - really only if there's a choice of routes and the bolts are so far apart as to be hard to see and go for on the lead.

Usually a new lead has some loose holds, which often leave dirt when pulled off, lichen, loose grain, multiple route choices - all that stuff makes moving upward on new ground more challenging than it will be for those who follow. Picking the right stance in consideration with the rhythm of the protection and the line of the route are all to be dealt with before the hammer comes out. Sometimes, when the drilling begins it really gets intense.

It's a beautiful thing, and no other adventure in climbing really compares to the simple act of moving out onto virgin territory with a bolt kit and a destination. That said, some routes are just best when top roped and drilled however, usually on rappel, with an emphasis put on the very best bolt locations and quality, and careful consideration of rope drag and avoiding dangerous falls.

My opinion is that once a route is cleaned on rappel, or even just observed from a rappel, the pure adventure of a true ground up on sight is lost. The first ascensionist, I believe, is then obligated to bolt the route in a way that doesn't take advantage of the knowledge he has about the route's details which were gained by inspection from rappel. To me, that pretty much means the route should be toproped by two climbers, bolt positions carefully deliberated and chosen, with the drilling done however, the best climb possible as the goal.

One man's best climb might not be another's, but therein lies the character of the route and its reflection of the character of the climber(s) who imagined and bolted it. The "adventure" might be lost for one climber, once, but the moves and the rock can be enjoyed by other climbers forever if the job's done well.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Mar 31, 2013 - 05:09am PT
Nice post warbler. I find the thought of GU bolting something that i have allready TRd or inspected to be pretty silly unless it is heniously difficult to get to the top of the cliff to rapell.
jghedge

climber
Mar 31, 2013 - 05:26am PT
I remember visiting the crag at the base of the Mt Lemmon rd while it was being developed. Someone was top roping a route prior to bolting it and determining where the best clip stances were, the most solid rock etc. Already had a 2-bolt anchor installed. He said he was going to come back and bolt it on lead, though, since rap bolting was against local ethics...he was even testing the hook placements on TR that he'd be drilling from when he came back

He said he was afraid it might get chopped if he rap bolted it...

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Mar 31, 2013 - 06:00am PT
Whatever it takes to satisfy the rock police.. Our stupid rulze......

Personaly I like Alpine rules.. Anything goes to keep us moveing up and getting home alive;)

Gritstone is pretty darn silly. TR it to death and pre place the gear is fine but god forbid if you onsight lead bolt the the thing.....
Fckin rulze..............
Urmas

Social climber
Sierra Eastside
Mar 31, 2013 - 08:03am PT
Yes, good posts by Warbler and Hedge!

Joe, your example illustrates the absurdity of a strict ground up style - strict in the letter, if not the spirit of the style. I'm so glad the childish wars over these issues are mostly behind us now. I remember a Las Vegas local relating the story to me about how he had dumped a bucket of sheep pellets on a party below who were using a top down style of which he did not approve!
Urmas

Social climber
Sierra Eastside
Mar 31, 2013 - 08:05am PT
Ksolem, thanks for telling me about your unfortunate incident at the Dike Wall. You're right I don't remember it. I'm glad you've recovered!
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