Bolting on stance - ground up - leading

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Messages 141 - 160 of total 197 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 30, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
Ksolem, do you think you could have done something differently to avoid this injury?

Nothing against Yoga per se, but leading up to this I was led toward shoulder hyper-mobility by a particular teacher. After the injury I began a regular Pilates practice first for rehab, now as a profession. It became apparent to me during and after rehab that I had made a bad trade of mobility for stability. Of course natural range of motion is good but I went too far. If I knew then what I know now it would never have happened.
can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Mar 30, 2013 - 07:40pm PT
Tradman;
"URMAS, If you have ever had a hook pop on you, you would know the difference;)"

I was belaying Urmas on the first pitch of Mescalito. He had to do a couple of hook moves and left the first one for pro or hadn't grabbed it yet, when the hook he was on blew. The hook he left caught his fall, albeit the hook got straightened out to 45 degrees. I guess he does know what it feels like.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Mar 30, 2013 - 07:55pm PT
Well then he must have some peculer rappeling habbits if he thinks rapping is the same as hooking;)
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Mar 30, 2013 - 08:04pm PT
It became apparent to me during and after rehab that I had made a bad trade of mobility for stability.

Are you saying too much stretching in the upper extremities is not always smart? Any particular exercises you would recommend that could help with stability in that region?
wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Mar 30, 2013 - 11:25pm PT
To go back to the OP...."drilling seems to be a lot harder then climbing"....the partners I put up climbs with rate the stances your drilling from on a scale of 1 to 10 rather then moves on the climb. But I've put it to the Warbler who knows a thing or two about bolting from stances that it may be harder to on-site very run out face climbs because you don't have a bolt kit with you and can't ethically add a bolt to a route which you can do when putting up the FA. He agreed that some routes may be harder on site but bolting from stances Is certainly hard and scary...
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Mar 31, 2013 - 12:16am PT
The situations where on sighting a face route w/o bolt kit is harder than the FA are rare - really only if there's a choice of routes and the bolts are so far apart as to be hard to see and go for on the lead.

Usually a new lead has some loose holds, which often leave dirt when pulled off, lichen, loose grain, multiple route choices - all that stuff makes moving upward on new ground more challenging than it will be for those who follow. Picking the right stance in consideration with the rhythm of the protection and the line of the route are all to be dealt with before the hammer comes out. Sometimes, when the drilling begins it really gets intense.

It's a beautiful thing, and no other adventure in climbing really compares to the simple act of moving out onto virgin territory with a bolt kit and a destination. That said, some routes are just best when top roped and drilled however, usually on rappel, with an emphasis put on the very best bolt locations and quality, and careful consideration of rope drag and avoiding dangerous falls.

My opinion is that once a route is cleaned on rappel, or even just observed from a rappel, the pure adventure of a true ground up on sight is lost. The first ascensionist, I believe, is then obligated to bolt the route in a way that doesn't take advantage of the knowledge he has about the route's details which were gained by inspection from rappel. To me, that pretty much means the route should be toproped by two climbers, bolt positions carefully deliberated and chosen, with the drilling done however, the best climb possible as the goal.

One man's best climb might not be another's, but therein lies the character of the route and its reflection of the character of the climber(s) who imagined and bolted it. The "adventure" might be lost for one climber, once, but the moves and the rock can be enjoyed by other climbers forever if the job's done well.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Mar 31, 2013 - 08:09am PT
Nice post warbler. I find the thought of GU bolting something that i have allready TRd or inspected to be pretty silly unless it is heniously difficult to get to the top of the cliff to rapell.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Mar 31, 2013 - 09:00am PT
Whatever it takes to satisfy the rock police.. Our stupid rulze......

Personaly I like Alpine rules.. Anything goes to keep us moveing up and getting home alive;)

Gritstone is pretty darn silly. TR it to death and pre place the gear is fine but god forbid if you onsight lead bolt the the thing.....
Fckin rulze..............
Urmas

Social climber
Sierra Eastside
Mar 31, 2013 - 11:03am PT
Yes, good posts by Warbler and Hedge!

Joe, your example illustrates the absurdity of a strict ground up style - strict in the letter, if not the spirit of the style. I'm so glad the childish wars over these issues are mostly behind us now. I remember a Las Vegas local relating the story to me about how he had dumped a bucket of sheep pellets on a party below who were using a top down style of which he did not approve!
Urmas

Social climber
Sierra Eastside
Mar 31, 2013 - 11:05am PT
Ksolem, thanks for telling me about your unfortunate incident at the Dike Wall. You're right I don't remember it. I'm glad you've recovered!
wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Mar 31, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
Nice Warbler......As has been said in other posts, rules are only in the eye of the beholder/s of that time and place. I recall you saying in another thread that back in the day, and I paraphrase and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, that there were few of you playing a new game whose rules you were the authors of. And the game you were playing seemed to have faded for a time but is still alive for a few. I have always been drawn to the adventure of the style of those few. Yours, Kamps, Higgens et.al. are the climbs I'm drawn to and whose style I try to keep alive on FA. Virgin territory as you say, but more the mental challenge which seems also to have faded with those climbs. I recall you also mentioning that those climbs and that style represent the true last bastion of climbing. Where gear advancements don't have much impact and the whole game, mental as well as physical come into play.

Largo wondered on another thread if rebolting these lines would bring climbers back to them. Many have been replaced over the last few years but I still see all the aprons empty, which is just the way I like it.
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Mar 31, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
I'm just loving this thread, finally something worth blabbering about.

I don't think the number of climbers playing by the rules of "yesterday" have faded away. More like just sunk into the shadows being totally obscured by the vast hordes of climbers we have today who are overwhelmingly not willing or capable of committing to such rules. They're still out there though, just doing their thing.

Couple of points to consider too. The learning curve in many aspects today is also much higher than it was even 25 years ago. It's pretty difficult to just go out and climb (ground up, on stance) a 5.11 as your first route. You have to work up to that. And people have been working up to that at every major and even obscure crag for more than 50 years now. So in alot of places what are you left with? Difficult routes, sparsely protectable or stanceless routes, rock quality that is beyond questionable, contrivance, extremely remote and difficult to get to crags etc... Long gone are the days where you just waltz up to your local crag and just "put up" a new route and I think that has alot to do with the falling out of "gud" style. Convenience in alot of ways has become necessity.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Mar 31, 2013 - 02:15pm PT
The thing about the concept of "Bolting on stance - ground up - leading" is that it demands purity to be anything special. No preinspection, no aid whatsoever. We never even slung the drill bit for security when drilling. Using a hook, or standing on a hanger to drill were more than poor style - they were aid climbing, and the route was no longer a free climb. Period. Simple.

As the moves got harder, and the holds smaller, little by little a little help from a hook or a bolt hanger under foot became employed by some, covertly at first.

When compromises of aid to drill on lead were introduced openly as a profoundly superior method to rapping, and the debate heated up to the point of boiling over, the inspiration and purity of what was, got pushed aside by the conflict over what should be. The slippery slope consumed face climbing - the clear water became murky.

Of course what was, still can be, with a little hiking and some imagination, but the pure flow seems to have slowed to a trickle.

All I can say is it has been fascinating to watch climbing evolve over nearly 50 years...



wstmrnclmr

Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
Mar 31, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
Salmanizer... I would, for the sake of conversation, say that as the style of on site ground up face climbing faded, that it left plenty of rock still within shouting distance. And, as Warbler says, with a little hiking...I was, and am, so happy to be finding like minded climbers out there willing to share the rope and the style. It reminds me of when I used to surf uncrowded waves where I grew up....I just recently climbed Parkline Slabs for the first time. Just me, my new found partner in arms, and the Golden Eagles overhead. A perfect, uncrowded wave...
Salamanizer

Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
Mar 31, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
No - I agree, it's just that it's not so obvious and you usually do have to walk a fair distance. Nothing staring you right in the face sorta thing.

The learning curve may be just a bit steeper to approach but no doubt, for any of you young bucks who are thinking they might want to play the game and garnish its full value. Theres still plenty of rock out there. I've been putting up routes ground up, hand drilling at free stances for almost 10 years now and I've still got so many new routes I want to take a stab at it makes my head spin, and I'm mostly just climbing in the Tahoe area.

The Crusade 5.10c
The Crusade 5.10c
Credit: Salamanizer

Valkyrie 5.9, 4 pitches.
Valkyrie 5.9, 4 pitches.
Credit: Salamanizer

Sun Tzu 5.10c/d, 3 pitches.
Sun Tzu 5.10c/d, 3 pitches.
Credit: Salamanizer

Evolution 5.10c
Evolution 5.10c
Credit: Salamanizer


Scott Thelen

Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
Mar 31, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
sure looks like Bear Res.
Tfish

Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
Apr 1, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
I've bolted on lead and rap bolted. I really regret being a pussy and rap bolting.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
Apr 1, 2013 - 08:34pm PT
Chad, where is that last one? That rock looks gnarly.
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Apr 1, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
Ho man.

Don't bring this up. I still have bad dreams.
JohnnyG

climber
Apr 1, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
This photo deserves a spot on this thread. I poached the photo from mtn proj.

Sounds like Kelly Bell was the real deal. See link.

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/106252871

Kelly Bell Drilling The Stand on the Bovine Wall...Rick Percival
Kelly Bell Drilling The Stand on the Bovine Wall...Rick Percival
Credit: JohnnyG
Messages 141 - 160 of total 197 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
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