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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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While I dislike the circus, and the permitting...can't support taking them down because it's a slippery slope to calling for the removal of ALL fixed anchors. First cables, next any bolted anchors on El Cap routes.
Give them the sacrificial lamb, or we might loose the entire flock.
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salbrecher
Ice climber
Vancouver
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The only Via Ferrata in the National Park System, the cables mar the landscape, create a circus like atmosphere, and enable unqualified people to get in harms way
The ropes on the headwall on Denali are basically the same thing in a different National Park, and lead to the same problems.
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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"Your response wasn't very well thought out boulder (climber?)."
Got anything else to whine about? we have already had 1/2 dome, dogs, Cerro Torre, trade routes...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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It'll take a visionary apolitical park Supt., but I say pull both HD and Angel's Landing.
The summit of the latter is a graffiti nightmare.
EDIT;
atchafalaya, I can't believe you just called donini a whiner!
(winer perhaps but really! WTF is the taco good for anyway?)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
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Yeah bouder climber? I'll wine about wimps like you who use ad hominem arguments instead of exploring the real issue. Can't do that with you as you hide behind an avatar.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Its not really about lawyers and lawsuits. It is pretty hard to win against the Federal government.
It is about public perception. If there are enough deaths/outcry, then the Park will do something.
That picture predates the permit system, no?
I don't think the permit system is such a bad way to go, although I would organize it a little differently. I think they should reserve some of the permits for those willing to get up early and stand in line.
It seems to me that the cables could be dramatically improved if they added a second group of cables so you had a separate paths going up and down.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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While I dislike the circus, and the permitting...can't support taking them down because it's a slippery slope to calling for the removal of ALL fixed anchors. First cables, next any bolted anchors on El Cap routes.
Give them the sacrificial lamb, or we might loose the entire flock.
This is a good point...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Perhaps we should recall that the "cables" on Half Dome date to 1875, and have been almost continuously in place since then. Also, that the Sierra Club, before it forgot that humans have a place in wilderness, supported their being rebuilt in their modern form, I believe in the 1920s or 1930s.
History is also part of why parks are created, not just conservation and recreation. The cables have more history than any of us. Maybe even more than donini.
There are already innumerable threads on the cables, removal of the cables, accidents on the cables, and related matters. A good one:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1201395/Drillholes-from-George-Andersons-1875-ascent-of-Half-Dome
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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This is like a climbing political thread, so I'm going to post.
I don't think that the cables should be removed. I agree with the statements that equate our bolts (some of my best routes are bolted!) to the cables. But this is really about where you draw the line on access. Route 120 goes through Tuolumne meadows and that is smack dab in the middle of the mountains. I was always impressed at the hikers I saw on the top of Half Dome; it's not that easy to get to the base, much less climb the cables. I am certainly more impressed with that effort to have an adventure and take in the view than I am with someone driving a camper to the Meadows and camping for the weekend.
I have never seen the cables crowded because they weren’t when I was in the Valley. I had never seen the Valley walls crowded until I returned a few times in the past few years. I had heard so much carping about how crowded it was, but what I saw were lots of climbers of varying skills having the time of the their lives. I think I could have avoided them all if I could still climb 5.10.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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While I dislike the circus, and the permitting...can't support taking them down because it's a slippery slope to calling for the removal of ALL fixed anchors. First cables, next any bolted anchors on El Cap routes.
Give them the sacrificial lamb, or we might loose the entire flock.
+1 (except for the typo spelling "lose" as "loose") PLUS the cables have a strong historical presence in the park, which also has a claim on their existence. I cannot justify taking away a unique adventure for most people who hike to the summit just because we don't like "tourons."
John
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Tax the hell out of people using them for ascent.
Use the $ to patrol.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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I would support banning climbing in the park before I would support taking down the cables. The only people who would benefit would be a few elderly egotistical climbers. Cheers,
Bwahahahaha!!!!
And August West makes a good point too.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Let me translate this proposal into federalgovernmentspeak:
The NPS should remove all equipment installed in designated wilderness used to facilitate ascents of rock features.
Good idea?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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For thousands of people it's one of the best experiences of their lives. Yes let's remove them, so only climbers can get there.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Ron, the tax idea is the best way for the NPS to regulate climbing. As a tax policy expert I can think of all kinds of ways to nudge climbers where you want them.
Clear the easy cliffs: Higher tax on easy routes.
Clear the walls: $20 for the every day. $2,000 per night.
Clean climbing: $500 to use a hammer.
Reduce the population: $1.00 day for unroped climbing on any cliff.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Let me translate this proposal into federalgovernmentspeak:
The NPS should remove all equipment installed in designated wilderness used to facilitate ascents of rock features.
that enable nontechnical climbers to be exposed to danger"
(works much better)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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take the cables down...
I wrote about this last fall:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1273669&msg=1277377#msg1277377
here is what I wrote:
On Thursday, September 23rd, 2010 I accompanied a good friend, her husband and son, and a friend of theirs up Half Dome via the cables. This had been a goal of my friend, to climb Half Dome, for which she prepared quite well, training the best you can at sea level. It was probably her biggest "wilderness" accomplishment.
It left me radicalized with respect to this particular route. I had been content to be a climber in the park and separate from the tourists, but this hike was so eye opening that I can no longer accept the existence of the cables, though I know that they will probably never come down.
What I have been taught as a climber by the NPS in Yosemite is that the NPS does not condone the presence of "fixed" ropes, if found, the Wilderness Climbing Management dictates that they will be removed. This authority comes from the NPS executing its responsibility under the Wilderness Act of 1964 "For this purpose there is hereby established a National Wilderness Preservation System to be composed of federally owned areas designated by Congress as "wilderness areas", and these shall be administered for the use and enjoyment of the American people in such manner as will leave them unimpaired for future use as wilderness, and so as to provide for the protection of these areas, the preservation of their wilderness character, and for the gathering and dissemination of information regarding their use and enjoyment as wilderness...
The definition of wilderness made in the act is a wonderful set of words:
“A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain.”
In both the letter of the law and its spirit, the cables route on Half Dome should not be there.
There is a description of the "Half Dome Day Hike" with an informational video and many good tips for a hiker. I observed nearly all of these tips and requirements being ignored, cutting switchbacks, walking outside of the trail boundaries, leaving toilet paper, trash along the way, obviously ill prepared hikers with little respect to for the commitment involved in this particular hike.
In the 1920 book Yosemite Trails by Ansel F. Hall the first history of the cables is described as Trail Trip 14...
"In 1919 a public-spirited citizen of San Francisco donated the money to build a first-class trail to the summit. This was constructed under the auspices of the Sierra Club, and the once perilous ascent finally made safe to all." In 1934 the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) "replaced and upgraded" the cables.
There is a considerable history regarding the cables route. Half Dome is the icon of the Yosemite National Park and its graphic can be seen on everything related to the park both officially and unofficially.
The major problem I see is the concept of "unrestricted access" by the public in the National Parks and into these wilderness areas. The mission of the National Park Service is stated on their website http://www.nps.gov/legacy/mission.html and provides a complex set of competing goals.
The National Park Service preserves unimpaired the natural and cultural resources and values of the national park system for the enjoyment, education, and inspiration of this and future generations. The Park Service cooperates with partners to extend the benefits of natural and cultural resource conservation and outdoor recreation throughout this country and the world.
The law establishing the NPS is referred to as "The National Park Service Organic Act" of 1916.
Visitors to Yosemite who hike the Half Dome trail set the agenda of their visit independent of the NPS. This is unlike visitors who will hike into the backcountry who are required to attend a briefing. While climbers do not attend a formal briefing, there are many requirements and restrictions on their visits, the aforementioned "abandoned gear" interpretation of fixed ropes, the use of "poop tubes" on wall routes, etc.
Climbers are highly motivated to cooperate with the NPS because of the importance of Yosemite Valley to climbing, it is a major international destination for climbing. Climbers have worked together with the NPS to be allowed the privilege of climbing in Yosemite.
Visitors hiking to the top of Half Dome are similarly motivated. Why doesn't the NPS use this motivation to require a briefing to acquire a permit for the Half Dome hike from every visitor doing the hike? While a permit is only required for some days now, it should be required for all hikers.
The cost of this unrestricted access is very real. Anyone who has hiked that trail knows how elaborate it is, including the facilities provided by two sets of outhouses, water, signage, etc. It is estimated that 50,000 hikers climb Half Dome each year, as many as 1000 a day. The NPS video reports that there are "100 incidents each year" requiring the intervention of the NPS along the trail.
Many of these hikers have one goal, to get to the top of Half Dome, and are oblivious to anything but the physical aspects of the journey. While the majority of the time is spent hiking the trail, few of the hikers have any knowledge or awareness of the wilderness they are traveling through, or how to minimally impact that wilderness. The shear numbers of hikers have a direct impact alone.
On my hike down I observed one hiker watching some video on his iPhone, the trail has excellent cell coverage... but what was the point of the hike? for that hiker it was apparently not related to being present in a beautiful piece of wild America.
My proposal would be to execute the NPS role to provide for the "enjoyment, education, and inspiration" of these visitors. This can only be done by modifying access to Half Dome and other parts of Yosemite. In particular, the visitors should no longer be left to their own agenda. It seems obvious that short of removing the Half Dome cables, that the number of people allowed on the trail should be restricted and that conditions for obtaining a permit include education by the NPS in accord with their mission.
I don't believe that the access to the wilderness should be restricted to the physically elite, rather, I would like to see the NPS take advantage of an opportunity to teach the visitors about the land that they manage, not only how to behave but perhaps a bit about how to appreciate. This opportunity is squandered now, it is an opportunity provided by the desire of some people to take a hike that could possibly be the most challenging physical feat they every engage in.
I could not have imagined that a simple hike with a friend would so utterly change the way I look at Yosemite and other parks. It is important that people have access to the parks, but it is also important that they come to an understanding about why the parks are there. If that education does not take place, then the parks will become a sort of "Disneyland" entertainment that has little to do with "an area where the earth and community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain."
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Dam it is always a unique experience to agree with Donini. I agree, take down the cables. The following photo was taken in approx 1995 when I took Kali up for an ascent. No way was I going to risk a climb up the cables with the hordes. One cardiac up high and the bowling alley would be open for business.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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When we did the cable route I had a fun day. It was a great hike, passing the falls, Liberty Cap and all. We talked to people who were having the adventure of their life. It's not like it is a gimmee.
What's wrong with you people that want to chop? I don't get it. You don't feel a connection to people who want to summit Half Dome?
If you guys want to chop the cables, then you had better chop the bolts, too.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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What a silly thread.
The cables should stay. They give millions the opportunity to summit half dome, an adventure with friends and family they otherwise wouldn't get to have. Obviously one has to weigh the net benefits against the net costs (injuries or deaths, etc.) - in my book there's no question it's a net positive experience. Plenty of opportunity elsewhere in the park for the solitude experience and/or the wilderness experience.
Surely there's something else to debate here on the great supertopo besides this.
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