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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 6, 2011 - 04:10pm PT
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The NPS has cleaned up it's act in the last couple of decades: no more firefall or feeding Grizzlies in Yellowstone. Why, then, do they still allow the cables on Half Dome? The only Via Ferrata in the National Park System, the cables mar the landscape, create a circus like atmosphere, and enable unqualified people to get in harms way.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Leave them be. All the buildings in the valley are marring and f*ing a beautiful ecosystem, are you advocating tearing down the lodge, the pizza deck, the stores and the Awahenne?
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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enable unqualified people to get in harms way.
You mean, like, climbers?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Perhaps the upcoming federal government shutdown would be a good opportunity for donini to get started.
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Tear the cable down and tear down the AHWAHNEE knucklehead. If ya can't spell it prolly don't mean that much to you. But the cable are a mess. I try to take as many gloves outa there when I come down. If I left junk like that anywhere else in the park....it's a ticket for littering, the top of Half Dome is littered with waste from tourons who couldn't get there without the cables. I agree with Jim..get rid of them.
Peace
call me Jim....I'll help ya!
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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"Perhaps the upcoming federal government shutdown would be a good opportunity for donini to get started. "
I thought the thread WAS going to be about suggesting this was the time....hahahah
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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I dont have a dog in this fight. But I think that safety is a concern.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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It's kinda artsy....
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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+1 on what coz says
too many freaked out people death gripping the cables. Half expect them to reach out and latch onto you as you go buy them.
I think I asked this before, but isn't there a rap route that avoids the cables for climbers?
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Man that picture makes it look like fun: nothing like standing in a good line for a slightly weird but sanitized experience. Like a Grateful Dead show in the good old days!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
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Port's picture looks like a perfect place for a demonstration of the domino effect.
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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I would support banning climbing in the park before I would support taking down the cables. The only people who would benefit would be a few elderly egotistical climbers. Cheers,
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Is the domino effect similar to the donini effect?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2011 - 04:49pm PT
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Your response wasn't very well thought out boulder (climber?).
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Unless you climb butt naked without shoes or chalk it is all aid.
Jim, is this really a question of climbing style and ethics? ;-)
(In my alone private wilderness time I try to climb without aid. I'm a veritable "Never Cry Wolf" running butt naked up the rock in the wilderness. Very cool.
I'm mean it. It's really cold. Shrinkage butt cold.
Just kidding . . . lol)
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wallyvirginia
Big Wall climber
Stockholm, Sweden
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I had no idea it could look like that, guess I was there on a good day..
I was amazed that a system like the cables on HD would exist in the us where lawsuits seem so common and limitless..
This kind of thing would never be seen in Sweden, even though we have the unique law of "every mans right" which allows you to go anywhere you please in the wild (without permit) as long as you leave no trace, camp out of seeing or hearing distance of residential houses and change camp every 24 hours.
But something like this would have to have a ticketbox, obligatory guide and brand spanking via ferrata harness and hooks for rent..
Obviuously I didn't encounter the hords of tourists but I thought that the cables was a cool experience. Kind of like 5.zero free soloing.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
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Bruce Kay, there may not be many accidents and, yes, you can find solitude over the next ridge, but do the cables belong in what is a wilderness area of a National Park? Everyone to their own opinion but I believe they are an anachronisn that should go.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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The only Via Ferrata in the National Park System...
Acadia Natl Park has several trails that are at least as much a via ferrata. The Precipice Trail comes to mind.
Edited to add:
GO
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Gene
climber
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The recent permit system for access to the cables is the first step in what will eventually be their inevitable removal.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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While I dislike the circus, and the permitting...can't support taking them down because it's a slippery slope to calling for the removal of ALL fixed anchors. First cables, next any bolted anchors on El Cap routes.
Give them the sacrificial lamb, or we might loose the entire flock.
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salbrecher
Ice climber
Vancouver
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The only Via Ferrata in the National Park System, the cables mar the landscape, create a circus like atmosphere, and enable unqualified people to get in harms way
The ropes on the headwall on Denali are basically the same thing in a different National Park, and lead to the same problems.
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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"Your response wasn't very well thought out boulder (climber?)."
Got anything else to whine about? we have already had 1/2 dome, dogs, Cerro Torre, trade routes...
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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It'll take a visionary apolitical park Supt., but I say pull both HD and Angel's Landing.
The summit of the latter is a graffiti nightmare.
EDIT;
atchafalaya, I can't believe you just called donini a whiner!
(winer perhaps but really! WTF is the taco good for anyway?)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2011 - 05:32pm PT
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Yeah bouder climber? I'll wine about wimps like you who use ad hominem arguments instead of exploring the real issue. Can't do that with you as you hide behind an avatar.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Its not really about lawyers and lawsuits. It is pretty hard to win against the Federal government.
It is about public perception. If there are enough deaths/outcry, then the Park will do something.
That picture predates the permit system, no?
I don't think the permit system is such a bad way to go, although I would organize it a little differently. I think they should reserve some of the permits for those willing to get up early and stand in line.
It seems to me that the cables could be dramatically improved if they added a second group of cables so you had a separate paths going up and down.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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While I dislike the circus, and the permitting...can't support taking them down because it's a slippery slope to calling for the removal of ALL fixed anchors. First cables, next any bolted anchors on El Cap routes.
Give them the sacrificial lamb, or we might loose the entire flock.
This is a good point...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Perhaps we should recall that the "cables" on Half Dome date to 1875, and have been almost continuously in place since then. Also, that the Sierra Club, before it forgot that humans have a place in wilderness, supported their being rebuilt in their modern form, I believe in the 1920s or 1930s.
History is also part of why parks are created, not just conservation and recreation. The cables have more history than any of us. Maybe even more than donini.
There are already innumerable threads on the cables, removal of the cables, accidents on the cables, and related matters. A good one:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1201395/Drillholes-from-George-Andersons-1875-ascent-of-Half-Dome
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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This is like a climbing political thread, so I'm going to post.
I don't think that the cables should be removed. I agree with the statements that equate our bolts (some of my best routes are bolted!) to the cables. But this is really about where you draw the line on access. Route 120 goes through Tuolumne meadows and that is smack dab in the middle of the mountains. I was always impressed at the hikers I saw on the top of Half Dome; it's not that easy to get to the base, much less climb the cables. I am certainly more impressed with that effort to have an adventure and take in the view than I am with someone driving a camper to the Meadows and camping for the weekend.
I have never seen the cables crowded because they weren’t when I was in the Valley. I had never seen the Valley walls crowded until I returned a few times in the past few years. I had heard so much carping about how crowded it was, but what I saw were lots of climbers of varying skills having the time of the their lives. I think I could have avoided them all if I could still climb 5.10.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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While I dislike the circus, and the permitting...can't support taking them down because it's a slippery slope to calling for the removal of ALL fixed anchors. First cables, next any bolted anchors on El Cap routes.
Give them the sacrificial lamb, or we might loose the entire flock.
+1 (except for the typo spelling "lose" as "loose") PLUS the cables have a strong historical presence in the park, which also has a claim on their existence. I cannot justify taking away a unique adventure for most people who hike to the summit just because we don't like "tourons."
John
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Tax the hell out of people using them for ascent.
Use the $ to patrol.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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I would support banning climbing in the park before I would support taking down the cables. The only people who would benefit would be a few elderly egotistical climbers. Cheers,
Bwahahahaha!!!!
And August West makes a good point too.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Let me translate this proposal into federalgovernmentspeak:
The NPS should remove all equipment installed in designated wilderness used to facilitate ascents of rock features.
Good idea?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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For thousands of people it's one of the best experiences of their lives. Yes let's remove them, so only climbers can get there.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Ron, the tax idea is the best way for the NPS to regulate climbing. As a tax policy expert I can think of all kinds of ways to nudge climbers where you want them.
Clear the easy cliffs: Higher tax on easy routes.
Clear the walls: $20 for the every day. $2,000 per night.
Clean climbing: $500 to use a hammer.
Reduce the population: $1.00 day for unroped climbing on any cliff.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Let me translate this proposal into federalgovernmentspeak:
The NPS should remove all equipment installed in designated wilderness used to facilitate ascents of rock features.
that enable nontechnical climbers to be exposed to danger"
(works much better)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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take the cables down...
I wrote about this last fall:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1273669&msg=1277377#msg1277377
here is what I wrote:
On Thursday, September 23rd, 2010 I accompanied a good friend, her husband and son, and a friend of theirs up Half Dome via the cables. This had been a goal of my friend, to climb Half Dome, for which she prepared quite well, training the best you can at sea level. It was probably her biggest "wilderness" accomplishment.
It left me radicalized with respect to this particular route. I had been content to be a climber in the park and separate from the tourists, but this hike was so eye opening that I can no longer accept the existence of the cables, though I know that they will probably never come down.
What I have been taught as a climber by the NPS in Yosemite is that the NPS does not condone the presence of "fixed" ropes, if found, the Wilderness Climbing Management dictates that they will be removed. This authority comes from the NPS executing its responsibility under the Wilderness Act of 1964 "For this purpose there is hereby established a National Wilderness Preservation System to be composed of federally owned areas designated by Congress as "wilderness areas", and these shall be administered for the use and enjoyment of the American people in such manner as will leave them unimpaired for future use as wilderness, and so as to provide for the protection of these areas, the preservation of their wilderness character, and for the gathering and dissemination of information regarding their use and enjoyment as wilderness...
The definition of wilderness made in the act is a wonderful set of words:
“A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his own works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain.”
In both the letter of the law and its spirit, the cables route on Half Dome should not be there.
There is a description of the "Half Dome Day Hike" with an informational video and many good tips for a hiker. I observed nearly all of these tips and requirements being ignored, cutting switchbacks, walking outside of the trail boundaries, leaving toilet paper, trash along the way, obviously ill prepared hikers with little respect to for the commitment involved in this particular hike.
In the 1920 book Yosemite Trails by Ansel F. Hall the first history of the cables is described as Trail Trip 14...
"In 1919 a public-spirited citizen of San Francisco donated the money to build a first-class trail to the summit. This was constructed under the auspices of the Sierra Club, and the once perilous ascent finally made safe to all." In 1934 the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) "replaced and upgraded" the cables.
There is a considerable history regarding the cables route. Half Dome is the icon of the Yosemite National Park and its graphic can be seen on everything related to the park both officially and unofficially.
The major problem I see is the concept of "unrestricted access" by the public in the National Parks and into these wilderness areas. The mission of the National Park Service is stated on their website http://www.nps.gov/legacy/mission.html and provides a complex set of competing goals.
The National Park Service preserves unimpaired the natural and cultural resources and values of the national park system for the enjoyment, education, and inspiration of this and future generations. The Park Service cooperates with partners to extend the benefits of natural and cultural resource conservation and outdoor recreation throughout this country and the world.
The law establishing the NPS is referred to as "The National Park Service Organic Act" of 1916.
Visitors to Yosemite who hike the Half Dome trail set the agenda of their visit independent of the NPS. This is unlike visitors who will hike into the backcountry who are required to attend a briefing. While climbers do not attend a formal briefing, there are many requirements and restrictions on their visits, the aforementioned "abandoned gear" interpretation of fixed ropes, the use of "poop tubes" on wall routes, etc.
Climbers are highly motivated to cooperate with the NPS because of the importance of Yosemite Valley to climbing, it is a major international destination for climbing. Climbers have worked together with the NPS to be allowed the privilege of climbing in Yosemite.
Visitors hiking to the top of Half Dome are similarly motivated. Why doesn't the NPS use this motivation to require a briefing to acquire a permit for the Half Dome hike from every visitor doing the hike? While a permit is only required for some days now, it should be required for all hikers.
The cost of this unrestricted access is very real. Anyone who has hiked that trail knows how elaborate it is, including the facilities provided by two sets of outhouses, water, signage, etc. It is estimated that 50,000 hikers climb Half Dome each year, as many as 1000 a day. The NPS video reports that there are "100 incidents each year" requiring the intervention of the NPS along the trail.
Many of these hikers have one goal, to get to the top of Half Dome, and are oblivious to anything but the physical aspects of the journey. While the majority of the time is spent hiking the trail, few of the hikers have any knowledge or awareness of the wilderness they are traveling through, or how to minimally impact that wilderness. The shear numbers of hikers have a direct impact alone.
On my hike down I observed one hiker watching some video on his iPhone, the trail has excellent cell coverage... but what was the point of the hike? for that hiker it was apparently not related to being present in a beautiful piece of wild America.
My proposal would be to execute the NPS role to provide for the "enjoyment, education, and inspiration" of these visitors. This can only be done by modifying access to Half Dome and other parts of Yosemite. In particular, the visitors should no longer be left to their own agenda. It seems obvious that short of removing the Half Dome cables, that the number of people allowed on the trail should be restricted and that conditions for obtaining a permit include education by the NPS in accord with their mission.
I don't believe that the access to the wilderness should be restricted to the physically elite, rather, I would like to see the NPS take advantage of an opportunity to teach the visitors about the land that they manage, not only how to behave but perhaps a bit about how to appreciate. This opportunity is squandered now, it is an opportunity provided by the desire of some people to take a hike that could possibly be the most challenging physical feat they every engage in.
I could not have imagined that a simple hike with a friend would so utterly change the way I look at Yosemite and other parks. It is important that people have access to the parks, but it is also important that they come to an understanding about why the parks are there. If that education does not take place, then the parks will become a sort of "Disneyland" entertainment that has little to do with "an area where the earth and community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain."
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Dam it is always a unique experience to agree with Donini. I agree, take down the cables. The following photo was taken in approx 1995 when I took Kali up for an ascent. No way was I going to risk a climb up the cables with the hordes. One cardiac up high and the bowling alley would be open for business.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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When we did the cable route I had a fun day. It was a great hike, passing the falls, Liberty Cap and all. We talked to people who were having the adventure of their life. It's not like it is a gimmee.
What's wrong with you people that want to chop? I don't get it. You don't feel a connection to people who want to summit Half Dome?
If you guys want to chop the cables, then you had better chop the bolts, too.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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What a silly thread.
The cables should stay. They give millions the opportunity to summit half dome, an adventure with friends and family they otherwise wouldn't get to have. Obviously one has to weigh the net benefits against the net costs (injuries or deaths, etc.) - in my book there's no question it's a net positive experience. Plenty of opportunity elsewhere in the park for the solitude experience and/or the wilderness experience.
Surely there's something else to debate here on the great supertopo besides this.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I agree that it's the experience of a lifetime for many and the closest they will get to climbing.
I also agree that taking them down would be a huge step closer to banning bolts in all wilderness.
So leave em up and don't charge big buck either! You want a $300 peak fee for el Cap?
Live and let live. It's possible for us climbers to enjoy half dome with or without em.
Peace
karl
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Perhaps the question should be, what can be done to reasonably manage usage of the route, in context of park planning and all the factors that must be balanced. For example, perhaps some minor changes could be made to the cables, stanchions and crossbeams, to make them safer to use, without significantly changing their appearance? Could or should user numbers, per day or per hour, be differently managed? Should users have to go through a training and safety session? Should there be commercial services for those interested? What about human waste and garbage?
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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and enable unqualified people to get in harms way
That is the whole point of vacation, isn't it. Otherwise, ski areas, lakes for boating, whitewater, casinos, etc..., would all need to be "removed" to keep unqualified people from harms way.
Isn't that the nature of adventure. It's not adventure if it's easy and safe.
Dave
P.S. Rock climbing will need to be regulated too if "harms way" become the important factor in allowing certain activities. Or are we exempt because we are special?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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They are just a trail - an unusual one, but just a trail. Try rewording the original post:
The NPS has cleaned up it's act in the last couple of decades: no more firefall or feeding Grizzlies in Yellowstone. Why, then, do they still allow the John Muir Trail? The only trail along the crest of the Sierras in the National Park System, the John Muir Trail mars the landscape, creates a circus like atmosphere, and enables unqualified people to get in harms way.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Permits to hike to the top of Half Dome are now required seven days per week when the cables are up. This is an interim measure to increase safety along the cables while the park develops a long-term plan to manage use on the Half Dome Trail.
A maximum of 400 permits will be issued each of these days (300 of these permits are available to day hikers). (Before the permit system was implemented in 2010, about 400 people used this trail on weekdays, while about 800 people used this trail on weekends and holidays, on average.)
I think people should read about the hike and responsabilities and pass a quick test to get a permit.
If you take out the cables you should really take out all improved trails in wilderness.
I'm worried about more people getting on Snake Dike because they can't use the cables.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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I advocate leaving them up and adding more via feratta type trails in the park systems. Also, more mountain bike trails.
If we can successfully put up skate parks all over the USA then we need more recreational opportunities.
I volunteer to put up the Via Ferrrata on Grizzly Peak and the West face of HD.
Anyone volunteer to fund me?
Another high quality Donini troll.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Something like the firefall and feeding grizzlies isn't quite the same thing. The cables are a permanent feature that predate Half Dome being in a wilderness area.
YNP clearly doesn't want to take them out and face the wraith of the public, but being in a wilderness area, they feel they can't make improvements. It's too bad. Having two set of cables and having the wood crossbars every three feet or so would vastly improve safety. As far as negative impacts, I don't see how it would really be any worse than what is there.
But again, I understand YNP's hands are tied and I don't see them making any improvements of any sorts.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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I think people should read about the hike and responsabilities and pass a quick test to get a permit.
Same for all climbing in the park? After all, someone who's idea of an approach is crossing El Cap Meadow, they must be pretty green. Probably too green to be allowed to do something as dangerous as climbing.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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I agree with Donini. They're an eyesore.
What about the face of El Cap in it's glory?? No haul bags, they're an eyesore to the "tourists". F*#kin-A, they're an attraction! People pull over and look through bi-nocs to spot them.
And we're worrying about a bolt-ladder (essentialy) on the face of HD and actual tourists going up there!!
Meh! There is bigger sh#t to be worrying about.
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Gene
climber
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What about taking the cables down once private vehicles are banned from the Valley, a convenient out-of-Valley based transit/shuttle system for visitors is in place, and folks of all ages including the old &/or disabled have reasonably priced places to stay in the Valley? That'd work for me.
g
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jbar
Mountain climber
urasymptote
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Wow! Besides the trip reports and beta posts this post is the epitome of what the ST forum should be about. As one begins reading, looking for comments that support their preconceived notion they can't help but run into opposing views by Donini, Coz, Roger Breedlove, Piton Ron, Ed Hartouni, and others that challenge them to think more deeply. Love it guys! I wonder if the park service ever considers posting on ST as a troll before creating new policies or budgetary decisions? I don't read ST very often anymore. I'm gonna go look for a post about the Denali user fees.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Rickety old wood and cable - thought that was part of the adventure.
America - nation of wusses - will be along soon enough - let's not contribute to it.
An improved cable system and stair case. No. What next, escalators and chair lifts?
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MisterE
Social climber
Cinderella Story, Outa Nowhere
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Man, I bet we could get some serious weight for Facelift with that project!
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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I'm kind of surprised no one here has pulled them as a joke.
You know, late some July night... 3 or 4 hearty souls... unfix the bottom and just pull them up! Then rap down and hide in the bushes to see the laughs the next morning.
Kinda like putting picknic tables on top of Intersection Rock.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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I don't read ST very often anymore. I'm gonna go look for a post about the Denali user fees.
Sweet, so that means jbar is gone??? Good luck, man! And good riddance!
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sjellison
Mountain climber
Tucson
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wouldnt the chains on Angels Landing be another Via Ferrata in the Nat Parks?
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Right on.
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WBraun
climber
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The cables are not going anywhere.
They were put there for mankind to go see above and beyond.
Not for arrogant puffed up climber.
All those who even harbor the idea of removing them will be reborn in their next life as accountants for the IRS .......
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Damn this looks high
climber
Temecula, CA
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Take it all down--the hotel, the cafeteria, the cables. It's all a travesty!
If they discovered the Garden of Eden today, it would have a gift shop in it by Friday.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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whatever happens with the cables doesn't address the basic issue
rapidly growing population and limited resources
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Keep the HD cables but...
Why not remove the 3 foot bridges across the Merced River up to Little
Yosemite Valley and replace them with scary Amazon rope bridges.
Put some excitement into the lower sections to thin the herd!
Would sure cut down on congestion at HD cables and no need for permits anymore.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Lets enhance them. Zip line to the water park.
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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Jim, Jim, Jim, Jim?
Why raise such political issues on what is suppose to be a climbing web site?
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aguacaliente
climber
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Leave the cables. Take out the trail signs. Take out the road to the trailhead.
Take out the village. Take out the road.
Take out the road to the park. I think it would be permissible for climbers to hire mules to pack in their haul bags from Merced, though.
Once you do this, no one will go to the park. Then it will lose all its support from the public and close, and one day it will be sold back to the sheepherders, the ones John Muir chased out so long ago.
There are a lot of people in the world, some of them want to see parks, there's no going back to the days when there was nobody on the trail. If you want to go to a national park and see hardly anybody, there are lots of parks and backcountry where that is still possible. Even in YNP I suspect. Partly because all of the people are concentrated on the Half Dome cables. Maybe that trail has to die so that the others can live.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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whatever happens with the cables doesn't address the basic issue
rapidly growing population and limited resources
True, Tom. The massive population increase drives up the costs of all fixed assets, drives down real wages over time, and leads to crowding we never imagined we'd deal with.
Unfortunately, it's also necessary to sustain the modern welfare state, so this leads to the elephant in the room. How do we do stabilize population at a sustainable level in a way that's morally just and politically possible?
John
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jbar
Mountain climber
urasymptote
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@bluering - Been gone. Where you been? And never any bad sentiment from you in the past so I question your bad attitude. A classic example of why 99% of ST readers bail or simply lurk. Peace bro. Don't freak on people you don't even know. It's not healthy.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Wow! Besides the trip reports and beta posts this post is the epitome of what the ST forum should be about. As one begins reading, looking for comments that support their preconceived notion they can't help but run into opposing views by Donini, Coz, Roger Breedlove, Piton Ron, Ed Hartouni, and others that challenge them to think more deeply. Love it guys! I wonder if the park service ever considers posting on ST as a troll before creating new policies or budgetary decisions? I don't read ST very often anymore. I'm gonna go look for a post about the Denali user fees.
Jbar, I was reacting to your post. It seemed to me as though YOU were the one being reactive on this issue. In a silly and vague manner....
Tell us what you really f*#king think!!!!
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pic and missing my mama.
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Am I the only one who seen a few over weight (normally won't even attempt a step ladder) tourists stuck on the cables? They usually have faces changing into stark contrasting colors, eyes full of fear, hands white knuckled while on the verge of a heart attack.
Last time I was up there I had to help a man get down who had frozen mid way. It wasn't pretty.
Yes, get rid of them. Please...
AFS
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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destroy the guiding monopoly enjoyed by yosemite mountaineering school and its giant parent holding company, delaware north, in a cozy, corrupt relationship spawned in the cesspool of our nation's capital. take the effing cables down and make the east face of half dome the proper, developable, moderate climbing face it was meant to be. yosemite will become the true introduction to our sport it is meant to be, realizing its potential in a far better way than it is now, and guides and climbing instructors will have proper work throughout the summer, charging competitive fees for this service from which the climbing clientele will benefit greatly.
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utahman912
Social climber
SLC, UT
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Nobody is talking about the victims of dropping the cables... guys like this:
Mr. Half Dome
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BBA
climber
OF
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"This cable route was constructed in 1919 by the Sierra Club for visitors without technical rock climbing ability." - NPS
The idea was to get people behind the parks and the club for conservation. The NPS was formed in 1916 and there was hardly anyone around visiting the mountains.
Maybe it's time for the Sierra Club to figure something out for a park problem they created.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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^^^^ Yes, only official Sierra Club "h" rated guides may take groups up the cables.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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there are lots of parks and backcountry where that is still possible. Even in YNP I suspect.
I've backpacked for days in Yosemite and seen no one. Sure didn't see any tough climbers out there on those beautiful domes at Benson Lake.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2011 - 12:12pm PT
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Cragman, I couldn't agree more with you that public lands belong to all of us, not just climbers. The NP mandate is to preserve the environment in as pristine a state as possible. This is different from the mandates for BLM or National Forest land.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Leave the cables.
1) It's a great experience for non-technical families.
2) They're historic.
3) They're awesome.
4) Nobody is bothering me on the other side.
5) Tourons have food, water and weed when you top out and you're a hero.
6) Tourist chicks dig climbers. Lots of ugly stinky guys have gotten laid.
7) I need a handy way down.
8) They're still awesome.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2011 - 12:21pm PT
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I think the visual issue is important. I also think the NPS is setting themselves up for a potential lawsuit. Tha cables entice many, many people unto terrain they are not prepared for experientially or physically.
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tarek
climber
berkeley
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I agree with others who say "let them stay." Werner--that would be fitting.
(Greg Barnes--good point.)
The cables are a climbing route that give thousands of people an experience they cherish. The same experience many of us climbers seemingly require to live. Except that we hang our asses out a bit more.
There are ways to permit the hike without charging and having phone reservation crap either. People could be encouraged to get up pre-dawn to have more time on the route, etc. It's all been hashed over in the other thread. I like the idea of having the permits be tokens at the base of the cables. When they run out, you'd have to wait for someone to come down and hand one to you.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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I certainly hope we don't go further down the trail of, "It might lead to a lawsuit" when deciding what things we allow in the park. I'm really surprised that you feel this way Jim. More people have drowned falling in the water at the top of vernal falls then have died on the half dome cables. Should we close that trail because it puts people in danger? I certainly hope not.
Do more education, but leave the cables up.
Besides, if you take down the cables, I guarantee you someone will want to take down all the bolts and rap rings in the park. I might must join them.
Thanks Dean and Riley, for saying what I wanted to say, but was too pissed off at the time to say nicely.
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OR
Trad climber
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I think I asked this before, but isn't there a rap route that avoids the cables for climbers?
HAHHAHAHH....Those cables are an eyesore and those tourons piss me off and the scars to the landscape..terrible, Get rid of them now! BTW is there a rap route for climbers only with bomber bolts all the way down? HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from an ice pic and missing my mama.
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DMT...
I admire people that go out of their comfort zone... Just not when it endangers themselves and others. Freezing on the cables forcing people to pass around you on such dangerous terrain.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Freezing on the cables forcing people to pass around you on such dangerous terrain.
Then don't use them. If you want them taken down because they are dangerous, then why did you use them?
And If they are so dangerous, then why haven't more people gotten hurt on them? They do put the fear into me pretty good, but I have not gotten a good answer to that question. They are way slicker now, then 30 years ago, but still there has been very few accidents.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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I know what you mean Dean. I have been up them maybe 20 times. I use to run that trail. Getting to the top gives people a serious stoke. I get a kick out of chatting with them about how great it was. The idiots piss me off, but there are a whole lot more decent folks, then idiots. Thankfully...
While hiking the Whitney trail I met a couple who were celebrating their 70th wedding anniversary by hiking to the top. Those folks rocked. He was 90, and she was 87. I think the oldest person that I met on top of half dome was 76. I generally try to talk to the old timers because I think that it is cool that they are still out there adventuring.
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WBraun
climber
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Only self centered people want to remove these cables and trails ......
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Gene
climber
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I see both sides of the discussion. Inevitably, the cables will come down. Probably within the next 30 to 50 years.
I cherish the trip up HD I made with my daughter when she was six or seven. She worked so hard on that trip and was thrilled by the adventure. An added treat was her other partner, Mickey Mouse, was able to come with us.
I've posted this pic before cuz I love it.
g
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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That is an awesome picture Gene. Thanks for sharing it.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Two tidbits of personal history that disturb a bright distinction between wilderness experiences and catering to the masses.
1. I have only descended the cables, five times, but I used them.
2. The first time I climbed Half Dome, up the regular NW, in the late 60s, I arrived on top in the early morning. We had been benighted two pitches from the top, with me at the left end of the Thank God Ledge pitch and my belayer at the beginning.
The early bird hiker was astonished to met anyone on top. He saw me eyeing his old style, canvas covered canteen and offered me a sip of water, my first in 24 hours. As I was setting the belay and the hiker was edging closer to the visor lip and tryig to get his head around the ideaa of climbing the NW face, he shook his head and muttered, "I wouldn't do that for a million dollars." (And this was back when $1,000,000 was real money.)
I nodded sagely and said in return, "Neither would I."
This turned out to be true: the next time I climbed Half Dome a few years later, again by the Regular route, I did it for a guide’s fee of $500.
(Come to think of it, $500 was real money then too.)
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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The NP mandate is to preserve the environment in as pristine a state as possible.
That's only part of the mandate, Jim. If that were all, the NPS could fulfill its mandate by posting armed guards just outside the National Parks and shooting anyone trying to enter.
The NPS also has a mandate to preserve the Parks for the public, which implies access. It also is required to preserve matters of historical interest, which the Cables now are, being over 90 years old.
My first exposure to Yosemite climbers was via the cables in 1968 when, as a 17-year-old, I did my first solo backpack from Tuolumne Meadows to the valley, and detoured to the summit of Half Dome (this was already my fourth trip there), just as a party was finishing the regular NWF. Although I'd been climbing for about a year, I thought of Yosemite climbers as superhuman. Watching them end the climb showed me that I could climb in the Valley, too.
Removing the cables would be a real deprivation to the non-climbing public of one of the most extraordinary hiking experiences most will ever accomplish. Leave 'em alone, please!
John
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I suspect from all this sentiment that the summit of HD has proved to be far more resistant to graffiti than Angel's Landing.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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This is the modern tension between preserving wilderness and making nature's splendor accessible. There is no true wilderness in Yosemite Valley between Pohono Bridge and the Snow Creek switchbacks or well beyond the Half Dome trailhead. There are pockets of wilderness in many places such as Eagle Creek and Illilouette Gorge. So we have a gradation of wilderness. It's entirely appropriate that "ordinary" people can get themselves to the top of Half Dome and back in relative safety. Their experience will give them a much greater appreciation for unspoiled nature than a drive through Tuolumne Mdws. They are well warned along the way. The 8 miles and 4000' up are a good filter. The primitive cables are a final filter. Guido decided not to take Kalli. Appropriate for the situation. The recent fatalities have caused NPS to implement a permit system. Makes sense. There are many more affronts to "wilderness" in Yosemite Valley. Unrestricted car travel around the loop road is top of my list, I'm sure you've got another. Let's deal with those first.
If you want the top of Half Dome to yourself, hike up in November after the first snows. You might be the only party up there (as we were). Let the cables stay (for now).
Fred
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Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
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Another via ferrata is Lady Mountain in Zion. It was rickety when I did it in the early 70s and may actually have been removed by now. It climbs 2300 feet in 1.6 miles.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Sorry Donini, but in terms of a choice of famous old guys, I'm with Werner all the way on this one. Not that I have a vote that matters...
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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WBraun, all climbers are self centered to a certain degree. Well all people.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2011 - 04:40pm PT
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Ah Werner, I wouldn't expect an ad hominem argument from you! I'm sure you have enough arguments that have nothing to do with "perceived" character traits of those who don't agree with you.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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I think Werner called me wobbly and out of control.
I do think Werner's assigning campers to a rebirth as an accountant for the NPS is indeterminate with regard to karma; for some of us, that would be an improvement: living in the Valley, climbing after work, visiting Werner and Dill.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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6) Tourist chicks dig climbers. Lots of ugly stinky guys have gotten laid.
The Half Dome cables. Getting ugly stinky guys laid since 1875.
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WBraun
climber
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Only self centered people want to remove these cables and trails ......
Jim
The above statement was made as a collective aim towards anyone including myself and not to you or anyone personally.
I know full well the problems with the trail to Half Dome and the cables.
We have a good percentage of our calls in this corridor during the peak season.
But 99% of the people traveling this area never have a problem for us, it's only a very small percentage of the total. One can leave this trail and in a couple minutes you'll see nobody.
It's one of the most popular trails in the country and anyone can see why real easily once having traveled it.
You can take the cables down and I'll guarantee our calls for help will increase exponentially.
There will be so many people attempting to get up there and ledge out.
You can guarantee this happening for sure.
I've seen every stupid thing in the book and more here in all these years.
It's unbelievable sometimes ...... :-)
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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I loved Huell's trip up the cables too! "Isn't this AMAZING!". When the guy offers him an alcoholic shot, the camera cuts away for a few minutes, then comes back to Hugh, extra happy!
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. If you are complaining about the cables because of what you saw when YOU were on the cables....
At first I was put off by the new permit system. But, I like it now. I bet it has cut back a LOT on the yahoos on the cables. You can't just do it on a whim now. You have to plan in advance. When someone starts researching how to get a permit they will probably also find out a lot about what it's like and what is required.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2011 - 07:40pm PT
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Cragman, you and I obviously don't agree on the cables and you have some very good points regarding your case- comparison with the Meadows isn't one of them. Every National Park has high density areas replete with hotels, resturants and stores. What happens in the wilderness areas of the Parks is another concern altogether.
Oh, and yes, I have been to the Valley lately.
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Cosimon
climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 20, 2011 - 04:55pm PT
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Ascending the cables of half dome at age 8 is one of the coolest things I have ever done.
I might not have grown to appreciate the wilderness if I didn't get such a cool opportunity.
Also, it's pretty darn convenient to run down the cables after doing the regular route on the face!
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pcg
climber
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Apr 20, 2011 - 05:04pm PT
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"the cables mar the landscape"
Probably the least mar of any other structure in the valley.
"create a circus like atmosphere"
It's a national park...
"enable unqualified people to get in harms way"
Yes, but many of those same unqualified people would scramble up there if the cables were gone as well, and more would then be in harm's way.
My suggestion to those who object is to not go there, and be grateful that it attracts people away from other places you might want to go.
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bjj
climber
beyond the sun
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Apr 20, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
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I've never been over to the cables, or 1/2 dome at all for that matter. Can you just shoe up and climb up or down solo 6 feet to the left? It looks like low angle 5.5 all the way.
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Apr 20, 2011 - 06:45pm PT
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It's time to remove all the bolts and fixed gear from El Cap as well!
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oldtopangalizard
Social climber
ca
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Apr 20, 2011 - 07:26pm PT
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OK, Survival's list (#5 and #6 specifically) seals the deal. The cables stay!
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fongschway
Social climber
Plainfield, VT
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Apr 20, 2011 - 09:32pm PT
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Why don't we add a second set of cables?....
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Ahwahnee Bartender
Big Wall climber
Fog Town
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Apr 20, 2011 - 10:09pm PT
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So it's 1975 and me and my buddy are working in YOSE Valley. We decide to hike to the top of Half Dome on our days off. We get there and <OOPS> the cables aren't up yet. So we batman up the cables and there is hardly a soul around. At 3/4's the way up I step on an eye bolt and take this shot. Ahhhh, the good 'ol days.
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Kalimon
Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
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Apr 20, 2011 - 10:32pm PT
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What is wrong with Via Ferrata? We should have more of them.
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frog (the real frog)
Trad climber
San Diego
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Apr 20, 2011 - 11:30pm PT
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I've a different take ... I'm in my 69th year ... I've been up the cables about 10 times, and down the cables about 11 times (Snake dyke about '05 - yeah I know)... the last time 3 yrs ago on the spur of the moment about 1300 starting from the rock above the bridge to Vernal - in Tevas and a windup flashlight ... I anticipate more adventures (if I can get a permit) ...
My Dad did HD (for the first and only time)in '87 at the age of 69 1/2 ...
My wife, both daughters, one son-in-law (all 4 several times), one granddaughter, a hiking buddy, and about a dozen fellow Yosemite (we call it "mysemite") lovers have been up the cables ........ without the cables only two of us might have made it to the top ...
My hiking buddy backed off HD twice before the cables due to the exposure ... but after he literally crawled across the narrow ridge to Clouds Rest (I had his back pack and his keys) he stood on top of HD the next day ...
These folks all experienced something akin to you guys topping out on El Cap ... they faced fears ... they learned something about themselves ... they have memories that will last to the grave - and grow with each retelling ... and 4 additional grandkids have learned to love Yosemite (almost ready for the "trek") ...
Without the cables - none of these adventures ...
So I say leave the cables ... if one wants solitude there are other ways to the top ... there are places in the valley where one can be alone ... we climbers have our "cables" all over Yosemite in the form of bolts and anchors ...
In this world where "big brother" thinks he knows best and wants to rule every aspect of our lives, let's grant this bit of adventure where folks can confront their spirit and see who dwells therein ...
As for the permits ... they will lead to more accidents ........... if one has one permit for a specific day, one will push beyond good judgement 'cause that's his only shot ...
Just an old guys rant re "mysemite" ...
***
-where body ... mind ... will struggle no higher .....
there confront spirit - may you like whom you meet there ...
- bnthr -
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Apr 20, 2011 - 11:44pm PT
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Apr 21, 2011 - 12:59am PT
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hey there all, say..... just been reading and listening to all this...
thanks for all the shares...
:)
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Apr 21, 2011 - 02:34am PT
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Check out how China does it . . .
Or the Germans/Austrians, with the Zugspitze:
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Apr 21, 2011 - 03:10am PT
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I'm fairly astonished by this.
Once again, people interested in doing something to control the lives/activities of others. Are you all Repubs?
If these deface the rock, then bolts deface the rock. Outlaw it all.
Or....be reasonable and accommodating of others.
The 100,000 or so NON_CLIMBING VOTERS (!) that have climbed it in the last 10 years dwarf the voting climbing community (part of which would rather vote for Nader, than a winning candidate).
Keep the voters away from wilderness areas, and pretty soon, they'll have no reason to support the existance of such areas.
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MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
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Apr 21, 2011 - 03:18am PT
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The 100,000 or so NON_CLIMBING VOTERS (!) that have climbed it in the last 10 years dwarf the voting climbing community (part of which would rather vote for Nader, than a winning candidate).
Try about 100,000 a year. Before 2010.
NPS Stat
(Before the permit system was implemented in 2010, about 400 people used this trail on weekdays, while about 800 people used this trail on weekends and holidays, on average.)
2010 and after.
Permits to hike to the top of Half Dome are now required seven days per week when the cables are up.
HD permits are being traded and scalped on Craigslist.
A maximum of 400 permits will be issued each of these days.
Average time the cables are up is 130 days. (52,000 people)
If the HD cables are up 100 days that is 40,000 people.
That is just permitted days starting 2010.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 21, 2011 - 03:34am PT
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Hey, I got an idea.
I could give tandem paragiding rides off the visor on HD back down to the valley floor to ease the cable burden.
Hey, a compromise. I'm trying to work with you here people . . .
A few less tourists going down the cables would help wouldn't it?
Would be cool. Also it would help cover my summer time expenses. Tips only of course.
What do you think?
I would only do it because it's the right environmental thing to do. I want to ease the overuse of the cables and trail up to HD.
I should be heralded as a a hero by the LEO of the NPS.
I'm only thinking of the environment and reducing the number of cable users. What ever I can do to help. Only altruistic motives.
Honestly.
I mean really.
I really mean it.
C'mon I wouldn't joke about something as serious as this.
:-))
(I'm think I'm tapping into the spirit of Earl Redfern)
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Apr 21, 2011 - 03:56am PT
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I think the cables have been there long enough to earn eminent domain. I know those boards are mighty nice to walk down after you climb the other side.
One half dome attraction that few would miss if it were eliminated - the steenking mule trains that ferry tourists up the trail. They tear up the ground, raise dust and demand the right of way, and the mules are surly as hell. You should at least have to walk up to the cables if you are going to climb them.
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Wack
climber
Dazevue
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Apr 21, 2011 - 07:21am PT
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Talk to normal people about hiking HD. The experience is one of their few adventures into the epic area, the experience of a lifetime. The NPS is constantly dumbing things down to the lowest common denominator. I find that they are leaving the cables up encouraging. Oh and bring back the Firefall.
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raymond phule
climber
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Apr 21, 2011 - 07:45am PT
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I admire people that go out of their comfort zone... Just not when it endangers themselves and others. Freezing on the cables forcing people to pass around you on such dangerous terrain.
So I guess climbing need to be banned in Yosemite.
I can't really see the difference between the cables on halfdome and the paved and manufactured trails that can be found in the Valley. The fall trail is more or less a staircase if I remember correctly.
One thing I also remember from the valley is all climber trails with tens of different paths through some sections. Are climber trails even allowed?
It really isn't like climbers don't leave an impact in the valley.
I have walked down the half dome trail twice and it seems like a very good hike.
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EWG
Trad climber
Vermont
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Apr 21, 2011 - 12:23pm PT
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Many of you (especially the gifted like Donini)forget that most of America is not like you.
If you want the rest of the country to give a f*#k about the wilderness, they've got to have a taste too.
People are selfish--without that taste, without an experience to make "wilderness adventure" personal, they're not gonna give a crap about preserving it.
In a perfect world, the cables don't exist. But in reality, the cables seem like a worthwhile trade-off to me...
-e
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Tom10
Trad climber
Colorado Springs, CO
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Apr 21, 2011 - 12:31pm PT
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Let them be! The park is for people and obviously lots of people enjoy going to the top of Half Dome. I have been up the cables and I wish the park would put in a second set of cables to handle the crowds.
Tom
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jstan
climber
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Apr 21, 2011 - 12:44pm PT
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"What is wrong with Via Ferrata? We should have more of them."
If you are coming from a climbing perspective I can see how the cables should go.
But what is the climbing perspective? You now have to wait in line at the base of the Nose Route, right? How long before speed records on routes will require pre-placed draws? And why should only a few people enjoy pre-placed draws? It is wilderness. There should be no pre-placed draws. Just like there "should" be no cables on HD.
We are standing in quicksand folks.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Apr 21, 2011 - 01:00pm PT
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In a perfect world, the cables don't exist.
Maybe in a rock climbers perfect world but in some peoples perfect world, a monorail through the park and safe audio-animatronic animals and a petting zoo might be more just the thing.
Rock climbers seem to be incapable of seeing things from anyone else's point of view, or worse yet, seeing all others points of view as innately invalid because they are not rock climbers.
Get rid of the roads before bothering with the cables.
Dave
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EWG
Trad climber
Vermont
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Apr 21, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
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rectorsquid,
by picking out that sentence for a quote, you were actually able to make it look like I support the opposite position that my post supports. perhaps i should not have written that sentence--I'm not sure I believe it, upon reflection.
it also seems like you're saying that everyone's opinion is entitled to respect.
this is not true. relativistic arguments aren't worth your time.
-e
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raymond phule
climber
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Apr 21, 2011 - 02:37pm PT
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Why is the cables or a via ferrata worse in the wilderness compared to a trail?
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Apr 21, 2011 - 02:55pm PT
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These folks all experienced something akin to you guys topping out on El Cap ... they faced fears ... they learned something about themselves ... they have memories that will last to the grave - and grow with each retelling ... and 4 additional grandkids have learned to love Yosemite (almost ready for the "trek") ...
Without the cables - none of these adventures ...
So I say leave the cables ... if one wants solitude there are other ways to the top ... there are places in the valley where one can be alone ... we climbers have our "cables" all over Yosemite in the form of bolts and anchors ...
In this world where "big brother" thinks he knows best and wants to rule every aspect of our lives, let's grant this bit of adventure where folks can confront their spirit and see who dwells therein ...
+1 for the real frog
Climbers are tourists too. We are no better or more entitled because we follow a path closer to vertical.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
My ready room
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Apr 22, 2011 - 12:26am PT
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Word. F*#k it. The Earth will take care of them. She's got time on her side.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Apr 22, 2011 - 01:13am PT
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Let he (or she) who hath never clipped a bolt or fixed anchor, remove the first half dome cable.
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Apr 22, 2011 - 02:21am PT
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I forgot to register my vote. Leave em up! They arent hurting anything. If you dont like em dont go round to the backside of the dome where you can see em. Problem solved.
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go-B
climber
Sozo
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Apr 22, 2011 - 10:35am PT
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Is it the dish Network or DIRECT TV?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Apr 22, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
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There is undeveloped Sierra, in the immediate proximity to the cables, around Half Dome, around Yosemite, stretching for a 150 miles to the north and south. There is one Cable route in all the Californias. Why the need to erase someone else's history - a history none of you removal advocates had anything to do with?
Bingo.
The WIlderness designation for this corridor-- as for the extension to include the face of El Cap --was entirely about maximizing enforcement options for the NPS. Folks who want to see Wilderness borders patrolled that carefully then euqally ought to support a vastly reduced climber impact on El Cap including mandatory permits for overnight stays and a reduction of total parties allowed on the wall by about 85 or 90%.
Be careful what you wish for. Yr idiots if you think you can get Wilderness enforcement against "tourists" and not against your selves.
What would John Muir do?
Climb the cables! As a matter of fact, that's what he did. He loved that first ascent. He was thrilled that it was done by a Scot.
Would he like it now? Who cares.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 22, 2011 - 01:03pm PT
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Compromise can be the best solution.
Take down one cable.
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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Apr 22, 2011 - 01:19pm PT
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Leave them. My daughter who is afraid of heights but really wanted to do half-dome was thrilled to be able to get up top. Even with the cables it was a challenge for her, knowing her limitations I set her up to ensure her safety and the safety of others, plus we planned the ascent late in the season mid-week to avoid the crowds. She was totally stoked to get up there and will carry this memory forever.
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Adamame
climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 22, 2011 - 01:22pm PT
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I vote for a third cable.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 22, 2011 - 02:20pm PT
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Adamame, that (a 3rd cable) was proposed in another thread after a fatality. I think it's a great idea, even though I understand the feelings of those folks who think the cables should be removed.
Let's face it, Yosemite is "wilderness" as much as San Francisco is a port. Yes, it is that. But to many, many folks--it's so much more. A round-trip to the top of Half Dome is for many the peak of their wilderness experience--for their whole lives. Why take away that opportunity?
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Apr 22, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
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Where do you draw the line...
Climbers seem to draw the line somewhere around allowing rock climbers all access while getting rid of tourists. Some people could easily argue that removing bolts is not enough and that stopping climbers from climbing on the rocks is the only way to truly protect the wilderness. After all, climbers litter too and dang, after 6 is really smooth, unlike the rough surface that was on the rock 100 years ago.
If the question is where do I personally draw the line, I'd have to think a lot about what other people on this planet need and they decide to screw someone out of access, be it climbers, tourons, or even the hard-core hike-out-your-poop types who don't use roads and eat tree bark.
In the end, someone gets access and someone else does not. Many of us are in full on selfish mode and think that our rock climbers access is fine but everyone who has more impact is evil. I'm glad to see that at least a few climbers allow for the fact that non-climbers perhaps deserver the same right to trash the wilderness as we climbers have.
Instead of debating a specific feature removal, how about just picking what sort of access should be available for Yosemite Valley:
1. None. protect it all.
2. No trails, very limited entry permits, fines for leaving even human poop in the area. No climbing!
3. Trails, very limited entry permits, fines for leaving even human poop in the area. No climbing!
4. Trails. Poop allowed. Climbing allowed. No fixed gear.
...
8. Roads, toilets, campgrounds, climbing, fixed gear. No cables!
9. Roads, toilets, hotel, climbing, fixed gear, cables.
10. Roads, monorail, petting zoo, cable car to the top of HD and El Cap, cables too dangerous so an escalator, ...
Sorry if I didn't group things well. It was an impromptu list.
I'm guessing that the selfish types will pick the item in the list that describes what they like to do and excludes everyone else. Who is brave enough to restrict their own access? Anyone for items 1, 2, or 3?
Dave
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 22, 2011 - 03:09pm PT
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I think we should leave the cables, but they should only be used for getting up halfadome. People should be left to their own devices to get down for a true wild-erness experience.
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raymond phule
climber
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Apr 23, 2011 - 11:34am PT
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Karen, think how much more spectacular it would have been for her if she had conquered her fear of heights and been taken up Snake Dike.
So a more or less completely bolted climb is better than the cables? If you said solo snake dike you might have a point.
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melski
Trad climber
bytheriver
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Apr 23, 2011 - 12:47pm PT
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like it or not we"re gumbes on the bus,,chow for now
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Apr 23, 2011 - 01:40pm PT
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Perhaps climbing should put its own house in order first. Ugly piton scars, almost impossible to repair, mar almost every cliff and the desecration continues. The gardening that opens up some new climbs destroys whole plant communities and may destroy rare plants, definitely contrary to park policy.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 23, 2011 - 03:34pm PT
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I think we should leave the cables, but they should only be used for getting up halfadome. People should be left to their own devices to get down for a true wild-erness experience.
I'm "down" with that.
Take your pick:
1) Downclimbing solo (oh, boy . . . perhaps Honnold et. al. can feel comfy doing so.)
2) Rapping like cavers. (Boy, is that a lot of ropes.)
3) BASE Jumping your wing-suit. (The greatest thrills per second no doubt.)
4) Paragliding straight to the Mtn. Room bar for a cold one. (sweeeeeeet)
I pick number 4 ;-)
Where do I sign up?
Edit:
I'd be even willing to fly a NPS LEO tandem to get the opportunity to fly off Half Dome safely. Would be very coooooooooool.
WEll, just as long as they don't start blabbing while in flight about how they really are good people . . . we are just misunderstood . . . we are just like you . . . we only use tazzers on criminals . . . hey, wait a minute we aren't supposed to be flying off HD . . . I'm sorry I'm gonna have to tazzer you on the way down . . .
Uh, oh.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Apr 23, 2011 - 04:02pm PT
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I'm guessing that the selfish types will pick the item in the list that describes what they like to do and excludes everyone else. Who is brave enough to restrict their own access? Anyone for items 1, 2, or 3?
The philosophy embodied in this is "The Tragedy of the Commons"
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Captain...or Skully
climber
Dude, I totally got this.
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Apr 24, 2011 - 12:20am PT
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I still prefer bagels. I'd take me down some bagels.
Yes sir. Cables, Shmables. Have a bagel.
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Simmeron
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 25, 2011 - 05:56pm PT
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This is one of those situations where the NPS (and climbers) should realize that this is a necessary evil. It allows many people to be exposed to a wilderness area and have a quasi-wilderness experience. This in turn helps preserve wilderness when people are able to experience something of the sort as being atop Half Dome.
Let's point the fingers at ourselves and clean up all the rap slings and climber's trails criss-crossing through Yosemite. Likewise, I'd hate to see the day that climber's are denied access to Reed's Pinnacle because of the danger of a climber kicking a rock down onto the highway.
Leave the cables and let the general public have their fun. And as far as people unnecessarily dying: a great aspect of wilderness is that it is not sterilized for safety's sake.
If you really want to make a difference, make the Royal Arches raps easier to find so climbers are not "unnecessarily dying."
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 25, 2011 - 10:12pm PT
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Bolts and fixed gear all over the place and you worry about a simple via ferrata that enables non-climbers' access? There should be more VFs across the country, not less. The cables on Longs Peak were delightful when I scampered up them in 1954.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2011 - 10:17pm PT
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Have to disagree with you John but, in this country, that's okay. Cables on Half Dome, cables on Longs Peak, fixed ropes on Everest......on and on, keep them coming, let's put an end to adventure and discovery.
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SoyAnarchisto
Boulder climber
Boulder, CO
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Apr 25, 2011 - 11:13pm PT
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Take 'em down - and put in a TRAM!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2011 - 11:27pm PT
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Everything is relative, no absolutes. I just would like to see the natural world dealt with by more natural means.
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cintune
climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
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Apr 25, 2011 - 11:34pm PT
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Donini, I heard a hilarious story about you encountering a somewhat inebriated guy after a slide show in Denver (or Boulder?). He said you were his hero and then proceeded to try and wrestle you into a campfire, but ended up there himself, instead. True story?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Apr 26, 2011 - 10:35pm PT
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Have to disagree with you John but, in this country, that's okay
You bet!
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jstan
climber
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Apr 26, 2011 - 11:24pm PT
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Unnatural means are on the ascendency. Dyed in the wool climbers actually modifying the rock to get up and then they batman a rope instead of walking down. Rope only for safety is history.
There are always tradeoffs. There are priorities. I found the via ferrata in northern Italy great fun. All kinds of people were up there to see the park commemorating a WWI battleground. The artificial amendments to the terrain were serving purposes much larger than just the needs of people merely seeking adventure.
Ideally we would sort through these priorities taking care that you have to walk in to some places and some places don't have any artificial garbage. While you can belay out of your driver's seat in others.
But that does not appear to be the way we are going. Therein is the real shame.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
or some such
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Apr 27, 2011 - 12:43am PT
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So there's no bagels?
((sniff)) That's too bad. I like bagels.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Apr 29, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
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I start with the value that there should be some allotment of places with an appropriate adventure threshold for all levels of experience and ability. Halfdome cables and via ferratas in general fit well within this value system.
The main issue is regulating that things held sacred to a given class of folks are maintained, rather than destroyed by making accessibility too easy or too hard.
If one makes an argument for removing artificial stuff that makes an adventure more accessible, I see the following consequences: hammers would be illegal on a route if it had ever gone clean; bolts chopped from all lines that have been free soloed. After Alex Honnold spends a few seasons in the valley, protected face climbs would no longer exist.
If one clings to the illusion of less technology for more adventure, what about sticky rubber, waterproof breathable lightweight clothing, lightweight high calorie food, etc.
It's all a relative scale, a slippery slope, and any specific cut-off point will work for a very small group of people and disenfranchise a lot more.
So back to my original value statement, that there should be an allotment of the resources allocated to groups with a wide range of abilities and levels of experience. Overall, I think our country does this pretty well. We have some places that are "wild west" style life-in-your-own-hands (maybe less so than some other countries), and some places that are super regulated and safe, and some places at all levels of controlled risk in between.
We are free to choose which areas we enjoy, but we should not think we have the right to control how everywhere else is allocated amongst all the competing interests.
Or the pithy version: "lots o' rock in this world, go find your own adventure."
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Rick Sylvester
Trad climber
Squaw Valley, California
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May 10, 2011 - 05:58am PT
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Why didn't I think of that, Jim? Pure Gordian Knot genius solution. Tom Stienstra writes a twice weekly outdoors column for the "San Francisco Chronicle". It contains a lot of the traditional so-called American Sportsman(sic) hunting and fishing content. But he also as often as not goes beyond that to more real adventure outdoorsy stuff, environmental matters, et al. Recently he devoted a lot of ink to the issue of overcrowding on the cables. The park service has instituted a permit lottery system. Already for the coming season all the permits are gone, at least for weekends and holiday periods.
Now I can see both sides to the issue about denying non technical climbers access to a wonderful life enhancing experience. But what about the "Summits and Secrets" idea, that the knowledge of whatever lies high up is for only those who can get to the summit, and presumably by legitimate fair means (please don't ask me to define "legitimate and "fair")? The Furgg teleferique in Zermatt was envisioned as having three stages, one more than currently exist. The third was supposed to go to the top of the Matterhorn. It was a rare loss for the gnomes of Zurich.
Footnote: Many of us have long felt that "Summits and Secrets" is the greatest title of any mountaineering/climbing tome. My understanding is that it turns out that it was not author and legendary climber Kurt Diemberger's creation but that of the lowly translator. The oriignal German title literally meant "Summits and Companions".
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Pablo27
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Jan 24, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
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I'm an experienced climber and the exposure and the slick rock coming down the cables is a heads up experience. It seems crazy for people with no experience to go up there. I can't believe there have not been more accidents. Then again if you have 100+ people behind you in line to give you a spot, you're probably not going far if you do freak out. I'd be stoked to see them gone.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 24, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
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Yeah so you're a climber.
The half dome cables are not about climbers.
It's a public hiking trail.
Climbers have no say from your high lofty "climbing" perspectives.
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Ahwahnee Bartender
Big Wall climber
Fog Town
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Jan 24, 2012 - 01:18pm PT
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Hey Randisi, I see you took your photo in August of 1975. Mine was taken 1 month prior in July. It was a huge winter in the cables got put up late. In fact, NPS maintenance was just starting to place the struts and 2X4's about an hour before we started to bat man up the downed cables. The freaky thing is that both our photos look to be taken in almost the same spot!
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Jan 25, 2012 - 03:55am PT
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Just got an email today from Yosemite on this very topic. You get to tell the park what you think should be done with the cables on Half Dome.
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Long Awaited Half Dome Stewardship Plan Environmental Assessment is Here!
The Half Dome Trail Stewardship Plan Draft Environmental Assessment is now available for public review. Public comments on the plan will be accepted from Tuesday, January 24, 2012, through Thursday, March 15, 2012. The Half Dome Trail Stewardship Plan was developed to address crowded conditions, visitor experience, and safety on the Half Dome Trail and encompasses the two mile section from the John Muir Trail to the summit of Half Dome.
The Preferred Alternative is to keep the cables in place with their current configuration and implement daily use limits of 300 people per day.
Under Alternative E, the park would remove the cable system from Half Dome.
The public review and comment period begins with release of the EA. The document is available for electronic review at http://parkplanning.nps.gov/halfdome. Please submit written comments electronically through the website, or join us at the park's monthly Open House at the Yosemite Valley Visitor Center Auditorium on Wednesday, February 29, 2012, from 1:00 p.m. to 4:00 p.m., to discuss the plan with park staff.
--------------------------------
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wahr
climber
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Jan 25, 2012 - 05:57am PT
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just how many bolted routes would be opened up by removing the cables?
not counting the polished hole fest the tourists have chipped out
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Jan 25, 2012 - 09:50am PT
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Yosemite National Park, Calif. (AP) --
Yosemite National Park officials say lowering the number of permits to Half Dome is the best option for maintaining the wilderness character at the popular hiking spot.
Officials recommended a 300-per-day limit in their draft of the Half Dome Trail Stewardship Plan released Tuesday, following years of study.
Last year, officials instituted a lottery system that allows 400 hikers per day to tackle the 400-foot ascent up the granite shoulder of the dome.
Before that, as many as 1,200 park visitors would attempt the popular hike each day, creating congested and dangerous conditions on the cables that provide handholds on the slick granite.
Public comment on the report will be accepted through March 15.
Other options on the table range from requiring no permits at all to removing the safety cables.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2012/01/24/state/n151742S47.DTL#ixzz1kTvI3EeQ
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Jan 25, 2012 - 10:09am PT
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I would guess that you might get as many as 4-5 trad routes up that slab with the cables down. There would be a few congested spots. As I recall it should be able to be done without bolted anchors.
Wouldn't having 4-5 bolted sport routes be the same as having the cables?
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