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harihari
Trad climber
Squampton
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Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 31, 2011 - 04:30pm PT
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My partner and I were closest to a near-death in RR on Solar Slab last week. Here's what happened and what we thought about it.
We climbed Beulah's to the SS terrace, and then did the first pitch of SS, intent on Heliotrope. At the bleay on the big ledge above the black varnished corner, we ran into a partyof 3 women, doing SS, and a party of 2 doing Sunflower.
In the party of 3 their leader, the oldest, was not comfy with simul-belaying her two seconds, one of whm was saying that this was a bad idea, since they were moving at the speed ofr anaesthetised snails (they had started Johnny Vegas at 7 AM and now at 2 pm were one pitch up Solar Slab).
The party of 2's leader reached the bleay atop P1 of Sunflower, and, seeing a party ahead of them, decided to try the equally easy (but much more runout) Heliotrope. It took him about 15 min to set up his belay. We were in the sun still, but it was oddly cold. I was pretty much up the second's ass as she climbed up, and then the party of 2's leader launched into the cruxy runout traverse of Heliotrope, which, along with having to build a gear belay atop P1, must have taken him another hour.
When I arrived at the belay atop P1, their leader was still fiddling around and soon launched into the very runout crux pitch. His second was shivering and said she had no other clothes, so I gave her my shell as their leader hemmed and hawed. At this point I suggested to her (politely) that since they had 5 raps, darkness in 1.5 hours and no clothes, they should bail. The second suggested this to the leader, who said he wanted to keep going, but he traversed off right onto P3 of Sunflower, which has more gear. I got my jacket off his second and my partner and I finished Heliotrope. The sun hid behind mt Wilson and the wind picked up. High haze. Cold.
We traversed to the SS raps, hooked up with another party of 2, and as i reached the end of the 60m rap, looked over, and saw the leader of the party of 2 climbing. I pointed at the sun and my headlamp, not quite on, and the girl yelled over "we're gonna finish."
Two pairs of simulraps later we were back on the black-ledge of SS and there were the 3 glacial women, setting up their rap onto the terrace. At this point I asked them if they were simulrapping and heard a "no our junior member is not comfy with that" and with that the world's slowest rappels began. You could have poured ketchup down the rock quicker than these ladies slid down their ropes.
Above us in the wind and darkness, we saw two headlights, far far away, and finally we reached the SS terrace, where another 3-lady clusterf**k of tangled ropes and endlessly slow rapping awaited.
As the snails inched down their lines we saw the party of two, way above us, clearly penduluming around, looking for the stations. They finally found them but seemed to take forever to move down.
We finally got 60m down the descent gully after the snails, at which point the snails rappedthe wrong way and clusterf*#ked the rap station. Fed up, I slung a tree and we rapped past them into rain and snow and total darkness. My partner was shivering as he had given his jacket to one of the girls we were rapping with, and we knew we had to bust it quick to our gear or hypothermia would come our way.
Two of us dirted, scrambled for the bags, and within ten minutes the SS gully was a torrent-- I mean, a raging full on waterfall.
We heard faint cries of "help" from above and on walking a few meters away from the base saw two lights atop the SS terrace. They looked like they were heading for the JV raps.
The snow and wind got worse, so I called 911 and got the ball rolling. After 45 min on the phone the SAR guy said "not much we can do with this weather," and we booked it for our car. Looking back, we saw lights on JV and the 3 snails dirting in the SS gully.
The next day a chopper flew out, and picked up the party of 2 from the base of JV. They went straight to hospital with severe hypothermia (girl had a body temp of 81 degrees we were told) but both survived, thank God.
ANALYSIS
The party of 2 did the following which contributed to their near death
1) Not bringing wind and rainproof clothing and hats.
2) Attempting a new rap route, which was unknown to them, after dark.
3) Being over-ambitious/moving too slowly: given that the rap route and the route were new to them, and that the grade was daunting to them, they should have left themselves enough daylight to get off (which they could have-- they had 2 ropes and bailable-from belays)
4) Lacking any kind of emergency plan-- no cell phone, bivy sack, etc.
5) lacking speed in belay-building (or not planning their time around this). 15 min/belay x 3 pitch route = 45 min extra time...that's the diff between a rap in late afternoon, and a rope epic. if you ca't build a beay in 5 min, don't go multipitching.
6) Ego? Nothing wrong with running away. All our heroes have done it...and lived to climb more.
The party of 3 snails nearly got us all frozen. If I am again in the situation where somebody is holding me up, I will simply rap past them. When things get weather-nasty, your mission is MOVE FAST or get out of the way. If a beginner in your party doesn't like simulrapping, send somebody down first and fireman them down, but for God's sake move your butts!
Broadly, I would also warn folks that the rap route on SS is no guarantee of a fast descent...that it's easy just means gumbies will be on it, and the best-laid plans can be foiled by people who lack experience.
Anyway, thank God nobody died, and I hope we can learn from this story (again) that the mountain bats last.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Mar 31, 2011 - 04:39pm PT
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TFPU!
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susan peplow
climber
www.joshuatreevacationhomes.com
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Mar 31, 2011 - 04:44pm PT
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Seems like I've read this story before and sadly I fear I'll read it again all too soon. Glad you made it back safe and same to all other parties.
Today is a day to seek the shade, it's sunny and on the way to 90 degrees in J-Tree.
~Susan
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sac
Trad climber
Sun Coast B.C.
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Mar 31, 2011 - 04:53pm PT
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WOW! Just another day in Vegas, eh?
Sounds like you were the most together dude out there. Good job.
Wydinthcha just EAT everyone in your path?
Not into l'escargot?
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apogee
climber
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Mar 31, 2011 - 04:54pm PT
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Gnarly. If they actually had a core temp of 81 degrees, though, they wouldn't be walking (let alone rapping), talking or shivering. They'd just be laying there.
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Roxy
Trad climber
CA Central Coast
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Mar 31, 2011 - 05:06pm PT
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wild! thank goodness nobody was killed.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
Oakland
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Mar 31, 2011 - 05:08pm PT
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I've been in that gully, wow!
Poor choice of places to work on your multi-pitch technique. They need to go do laps on something else with a mellower consequence.
I wonder when does the more experienced and competent climber just up and say, "you need to get the hell off this route, now or you are going to be in bad shape"
I know as climbers we try to be chill and cool with each other, but if you see a situation unfolding that looks dire, would you speak up for the sake of others safety??
btw... good post and pretty spot on analysis.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Mar 31, 2011 - 05:54pm PT
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When I first climbed SS BITD, there were no rap anchors. You basically had to top out and descend the upper gully (included some raps). I wonder if the addition of rap anchors to SS has encouraged more novices since retreat is easier... or maybe the novices would just be leaving tons of gear trying to get down.
I recall coming down the upper gully in a rainstorm many years ago. our rope was super drenched and got hung up on some plates. I basically had to free solo sketch terrain to retrieve the rope. That could have easily been the end of me. But so could staying up there and freezing to death. We were the only ones in the canyon that day and cell phones only existed on Star trek.
At the very least, the experience described in the OP will be a good lesson in mountain time management for the folks affected. Thankfully no one died learning it!
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Nkane
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Mar 31, 2011 - 07:08pm PT
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Isn't having a rappelling epic in Solar Slab Gully a rite of passage for budding multi-pitch climbers these days? It certainly was for me a few years ago. It's where you learn how slow parties ahead of you + short days + long red rocks pitches + rapping through bushes + long approach = everything takes a lot longer than you think = rapping in the dark.
It sucks that these people chose a bad weather day to learn that lesson. Glad they ended up OK.
"The mountains bat last." Like it, and appropriate for Opening Day.
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
WA, & NC & Idaho
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Mar 31, 2011 - 09:28pm PT
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hari,
Thanks for the world class write up.
Glad they survived intact!
I use to be a gumby (and still have many gumby characteristics), so this is a good reminder!
Be careful y'all!
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murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
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Mar 31, 2011 - 10:41pm PT
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Well? Did they finish?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Mar 31, 2011 - 10:47pm PT
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I think people (including me) underestimate desert climbing. The coldest I've ever been on a climb was on a mid-March ascent of Black Orpheus. The temps were in the upper 40's to low 50's, the sun was out, but there were very high winds, and I was getting hypothermic by the time we topped out. I wasn't just climbing in a t-shirt either, but I didn't have enough clothing for that day.
Now, for long climbs in mid-march, I wear long underwear and carry a light insulated jacket. I've had to climb fully clothed in this outfit on numerous mid-March ascents.
I've also had the apparently obligatory rappelling epic coming down the Solar Slab raps---the story is in my trip report at http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-Week-in-Red-Rock-151-A-Photo-Essay/t371n.html.
In our case no one slowed us down, we hung a rappel and by the time we retrieved it and reached the lower gully it was dark. Fortunately, there was no bad weather, but rapping that lower gully in the pitch black (over ground which in daylight I have downclimbed unroped) was an incredible pain and a little scary in one or two spots, since there was some danger of rapping past the anchors. I can imagine how nasty it would have been in a downpour.
Heliotrope has run-out 5.8 and I recall a belay that requires a gear anchor built from small cams, in a place where the leader can't get anything in for a while on the next pitch and so is facing a factor-2 fall onto that belay. This is not a place for climbers whose multipitch experience consists of clipping bolt anchors, which may be becoming a new "trad" norm...
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ng
Trad climber
southwest
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Mar 31, 2011 - 11:45pm PT
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I was caught in a torrential hailstorm-downpour on the middle of Eagle Dance in April. The skies that morning were completely bluebird. We had full cotton regalia / no synthetics at all. Completely idiotic on our part.
My partner had multiple Himalayan ascents on his resume (including Everest)... he said he was colder that afternoon / evening in Vegas then in his entire career.
We had 2 foot wide geysers pounding us during the raps, getting off the Lev-29 / Eagle Dance terrace was ghastly, and then we had a multi-hour waist deep slog back down the canyon through the raging now seemingly-Class IV rapids wash. The icing was the ticket secure in its baggie waiting on my windshield.
Don't underestimate RRs.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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SS - trouble magnet.
SS raps - trouble funnel.
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harihari
Trad climber
Squampton
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 4, 2011 - 11:38am PT
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The other thing I noticed was that when sh*t happens, it often happens when a bunch of small things go pear-shaped. Ok sometimes you take a whiopper, break a leg or whqatever, but often the little things add up into somethig nasty. Slow + cool + lack of experience + lack of jackets + weather change = near-death epic.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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4) Lacking any kind of emergency plan-- no cell phone, bivy sack, etc.
After 45 min on the phone the SAR guy said "not much we can do with this weather,"
Even after this kind of experience, "cell phone" is first on the emergency plan list...
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Slabby D
Trad climber
B'ham WA
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I had my own sort of mini-epic rapping down from Solar Slab years ago on a Thanksgiving Trip. Wrong gulley, weather crapping out, small waterfalls pouring down, darkness approaching. But it remains one of my best memories from 20 years of climbing. To recall it makes me mourn the passage of years and youth. Get out there and epic youngsters while you can!
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The Guy
Trad climber
Portland, OR
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So....did anybody retrieve a purple C4 from Johnny Vegas? Lost it there
1 1/2 months ago. Walked on me. Anybody...?
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avid
Trad climber
sacramento, ca
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I had an epic rap experience on there last May. We ended up doing double raps w/ a nearby party of 3 from pitch 4 of SS. It started snowing and raining on us. Everyone had rain jackets, but we were still freezing. We moved fairly fast. It was my first time doing double raps but the party of 3 gave us great instruction on how we were going to do it quickly and safely.
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moacman
Trad climber
Montana
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Another normal spring break at good old Red Rocks.....
Stevo
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Mary Moser
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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It seems Red Rocks is the scene of so many accidents/blunders/epics, both would-be and those that actually happened. My husband and I have a 4-day trip planned in mid-April and I'm almost dreading it. In 15 years we've never had an accident, but Red Rocks just somehow seems cursed these days. Too many folks doing all the wrong things and potentially causing harm to themselves and/or others. Hmmmm...maybe we should change our venue.
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BrianH
Trad climber
santa fe
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Thank you for posting.
I'm not convinced that rapping an unknown rap route in the dark is totally dangerous. Sometimes you have no choice. You just have to slow down. It sucks a little.
But along with all the other things you mentioned, it certainly was a factor for their Unpleasant Experience.
Mary, you only hear about the bad things, people climb there all the time with no epics. They key is an early start so you're above everybody else, and maybe foregoing some of the easier ultra-mega classics.
mountainproject.com has a great list of less popular climbs for their RR section.
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Mrk9182
Sport climber
iowa
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Had a mini epic out on solar slab myself earlier this year. We were doing SS for the first time and wanted to do the painted bowl descent. Long story short after geting stuck behind 2 slower groups we ended up getting back to our car at 11:00pm. I wish i brought my brighter/heavier headlamp.
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Smeagol
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sounds like a terrible experience. I'm glad everyone survived. We had something similar happen to us a few weeks ago on Olive Oil. I took some friends out for an easy 5 pitchs and it ended up taking 8 hours to get up it while we waited for two snail parties ahead of us. Spent an average of 1-2 hours at each belay. Topped out right at sunset. A few days later we encountered the same situation on "myster z". Fed up, we simuled past everyone and ran past them on the slabs. I'm pretty much done climbing anything "classic" below 5.10 in Red Rocks now, it's an almost guaranteed flailfest.
Solar slab seems to be a magnet for unfortunate incidents too. Anyone remember this from last year?
http://www.examiner.com/climbing-in-national/climber-falls-while-climbing-solar-slab-at-red-rock-canyon
Pretty tragic.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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Thanks for the write up.
Seems to me there were some other options available at a few spots. When you have several parties with lots of ropes, trying to get down one rap route, an experienced person can rap down with extra ropes and set all the rappels. That way as soon as one person finishes one rap, they immediately clip into the next rope and continue down. If one person is particularly timid and slow, you can lower them from station to station. You set the speed and they only have to pay attention to where they put their feet.
You shouldn't be a drill sergeant to take the lead in these situations. If you are calm, matter of fact and knowledgeable, people are usually glad for your help.
We don't have to take responsibility for the other people on a mountain, but if you had somehow convinced the benighted couple to retreat earlier, you would not have been worried about them. Would have saved the SAR some trouble. If you could have set up a team descent with the slow ladies, you would have gotten them moving much faster, much earlier and all would have been down sooner, with much less frustration and they would have bought you dinner. Or alternatively if they were unappreciative and resistant, you could have blasted past them sooner and been happy to leave them in the cold, wet dark.
I can totally relate to being under dressed at times. I think, "Dang, why am I out here without some extra gear? I know better than this!"
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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It's nicer to learn from the mistakes of others. We all get to make some mistakes, too. The easier climbs will always have their share of epics as people with lesser skills will be there receiving their education.
I'll keep my mouth shut about hypothermia. It has bitten me a couple of times. It can come when you are completely unprepared. It can also come when you are prepared and no one expects it. Recognize the signs and take charge. Folks blinded by ego or imparied from emerging medical conditions may not recognize the extent of trouble they are facing. I can be very obnoxious asking someone how they feel constantly when I need them to turn around. I will recount epics I have had loudly to "educate" someone nearby. I will talk about how long a SAR response will be to inspire some better thinking.
We just had a couple of big men decide to go caving in shorts, exit the cave in soft, waist deep snow in 30 degree wet weather, and require a lengthy rescue. http://www.columbian.com/news/2011/mar/20/rescue-at-ape-cave-two-day-hikers-owe-much-to-thos/ Thankfully we were able to rewarm them and fashion dry clothes out of trash bags for them and assist them to snowmobiles on a nearby forest road. The thought of carrying out a 450+ pound man and his 300 pound "little brother" was daunting. The amazing part is that they deliberately went out in shorts thinking that wet pants on their legs would be too cold!
That others may live....
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
13,000 feet
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i just deleted my post.
it would be interpreted as unkind to the party,
and unkind to a certain renown climber as well.
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laurel arndt
Trad climber
phoenix
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If you want to give aid than a nice smile and hint of humor makes help a lot easier to accept. We all think we can work our way through stuff (or our partner will) but pride goes before a fall. I've had great trips in RR thanks to great partnerships. Done many routes in that area with no epics. Did get cold easily. Thanks for the reminder about bluebird days turning brutal!!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The SS rap [gully] is awkward and particularly so for less experienced climbers. All in all there are lots of places to climb in RR so better to head a little off the beaten track than stand in line at at the most popular lines.
I think because the place has the dual sport/trad thing going you get a lot of less experienced cross-overs attempting trad lines that, even at lower grads, can be quite challenging experiences for a lot of those folks.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
Oakland
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Top out SS, do the two huge (clean) raps off the backside and then do the long ass boulder hop boggie walkoff. Was a great intro to longer routes for me.
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Ensonik
Trad climber
Montreal, Quebec
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Having heard about the epic raps down the gully, when I went up SS earlier this year with my son, I set a turn around time for 2:00 PM. That time ticked by at the top of the P1 on SS
(lay off; we had a late start and I climbed the gully on the left ...)
That turned out to be a wise decision; that rap is a horror ... the horror ... We made it back to the car pretty much as the sun was setting.
BUT, I'll say this: As n00b as I am, I'm not stupid; Our packs contain: space blankets, hats, gloves, waterproof coats, food, headlamps, batteries, ... Some may accuse me of being overpacked, but I honestly don't give a sh#t.
I too documented the whole thing here, happily, not an epic. I go by the ethos that there is absolutely no macho pride up there. Not for me; not when my kid weighs in the balance.
http://mikemclean.ca/ocd/2011/03/11/ocd-in-red-rocks-last-part/
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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A couple of years ago there was a long thread (I'm too lazy to look for it) about "what the hell do people carry in those packs", or something to that effect. As I recall a lot of experienced climbers were basically making fun of people who bring too much sh#t on climbs. Well, this is the other side of the story. I guess experience means finding just the right balance. Certainly a couple of big garbage bags stuffed into their pockets would have led to a much better outcome. A garbage bag weighs less than an ounce, but blue skies in the morning will always fool you. ha
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Sergio Colombo
Mountain climber
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I know this wall very well as I have climbed SS almost 15 times, and almost every other route on the wall more than once except Sunflower. The recap of this day all sounds very familiar, and I have seen my fair share of screw ups on this wall. Out of towner's can easily underestimate the length of the wall (almost 2000 ft. to the top of SS), the desert weather (very hot or very cold) and their own abilities. The 5.6 rating on SS might lure lots of climbers but the length of it and the long raps, especially combined with Beulah's Book or JV, can very easily turn an easy day into epic for themselves and for other parties stuck behind them. This was such an example of what not to do when the weather turns nasty on a long route. You should be polite, but when the sh#t hits the fan, you need to take action and move on.
My advantage in situations like that on the SS wall is that I know when to turn around if I spot parties like the ones HariHari described. There are other rap stations that can be used to avoid or minimize lines but for someone who's not familiar with the area, it's not going to be easy. The gully can be easily downclimbed with the exception of the first pitch. But considering the darkness, rapping is always first choice. I am glad nobody got seriously hurt, just another lesson to take home.
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melski
Trad climber
bytheriver
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ok ,,cant say i:ve done double raps,,sounds simple enough,,beyond rope/anchor strength what are other factors? PS way to stay cool in cluster F,,,,s,,calm logic is all you can share in those situations,,chow,,
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harihari
Trad climber
Squampton
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2011 - 02:01pm PT
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Lots of good ideas here.
I too am done with RR moderates...too many gumbies. The fixed stations etc IMHO make the problem worse-- any idiot figures "oh we can get off" cos of them bolts. If you can climb 10+ though you are set. And with the new Handren guide there's so many routes to do...
We did try to politely suggest ways to speed things up-- the snails however were being stubborn and silly (oen of them was really taking her role as Mother Hen too seriously) and the party who got hypothermia just didn't realise how bad things could get.
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Bunch of savages running around RR.
These are the a-holes that kick rocks on everyone while their penduluming around looking for anchors.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Why the f*#k didn't you go back up and help them?
Full of criticism, but you hear cries for help and turn tail and run off. Lame.
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harihari
Trad climber
Squampton
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2011 - 03:02pm PT
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Hi Lambone-- we couldn't have re-climbed it. A) we were basically starting to be hypothermic ourselves, b) there was a full-on waterfall in the gully (I am not talking trickle; I am talking pounding wall of water) c) the rock is mush when wet and water + darkness + soft rock = death for anybody who would want to help. The in-danger party appeared to be tryign to rap so there was nothing for it but to call 911. When I talked to SAR the next day they said we'd done the right thing.
BTW simulrapping-- this ought to be standard procedure esp when there is any kind of crowd. It is fine on standard (9-11mm) ropes; you can easily do it on skinny ones too (just use a prussik); just make sure both people are weighting the rope silutaneously and rapping near each other. And there is NO EXCUSE ona busy route for not having a Reverso (or similar) and sinul-belaying your seconds.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Hi Lambone-- we couldn't have re-climbed it.
Meh, you are weak. JV is like 3 rappels right? You could have waited at the base for them to get down and helped them get back to the car rather then leave them to suffer an open bivi and almost die. imho...
Normally I don't wait for people but if there calling for help that changes everything.
And frankly I find your "analysis" to be condescending and inconsiderate, and full of your own assumptions.
You make a big example out of these poor people who had an epic with a "read and learn" take home message of rappel faster and bring a rain coat. Nice, thanks smart guy.
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harihari
Trad climber
Squampton
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 6, 2011 - 04:07pm PT
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Hi Lambone--
Calling somebody condescending and weak, not having been there, assumes an awful lot on your part. If I sound condescending toward the "snails," fine, they were-- despite polite suggestions from two other parties-- slowing everything down and creating some serious hassles.
First, yes, we could have waited a couple of hours...and also gotten hypothermia. I had brought enough clothes (long sleeved shirt, fleece and waterproof jacket, plus hat) to get off the route safely, not to hang out for the night, and we had no extras for another party. I'm not exagerating when I say we had howling sideways wind and snow and that it was seriously cold. When giving aid, you take care of yourself, then team, then the victim, in that order. It would have done no good to us or others to hang out there.
Second, when we called SAR, we asked if we should stick around. They said "no," because of the weather-- they told us they didn't want to deal with two pairs of hypothermic people.
The only thign I wodnered abotu was, why SAR didn't get out to the base of JV that evening. I understand they couldn't fly, obviously, but given that we told them the in-danger party was trying to rap...
Oh and the elsson to be learned was, in fact, move faster and bring warmer clothes! Come on, not everybody has climbed for 50 years like you, Lambone, and knows everything: maybe a beginner will read this and get somethign out of it, or an experienced person will be reminded that it's easy to botch things.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I don't know if it's particularly productive getting too judgmental or second-guessing events-of-the-day in hindsight - people react as they will and what's done is done.
I will say I strongly disagree with both of these assertions:
BTW simulrapping-- this ought to be standard procedure esp when there is any kind of crowd. And there is NO EXCUSE ona busy route for not simul-belaying your seconds.
The better suggestion is just don't climb busy routes in threesomes which, by definition, are clusterf*#ks from the get-go.
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Russ S.
climber
Seattle, WA
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Even though I've climbed for many years, simulrapping has always made me and my partners extremely nervous (hence rarely do it). Does anyone know of a case of anchor failure while duel rapping? I normally climb with long time partners, so strength of the anchor is only factor of concern...
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Yup, whining about a 5.6 trade route being busy with slow beginners, claiming they should be using advanced techniques, then making an example of someone elses misfortune. Self serving and pretentious.
Just my opinion. I really don't care what you think of it.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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1) Thread titles can't be edited. Probably just a poor choice in wording.
2) I wasn't there, sounded like hari had a tough call and at least called 911
3) Gumbies try to die. Some are successful.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I've never once simul rappelled, have never seen it done or had it suggested by a partner, and I've bailed off with lightning blasting all around me, in blizzards, at night, and a variety of other terrifying scenarios. I tend to doubt it would save that much time because of all the extra double checking and general unease doing non-standard stuff in deteriorating conditions.
I'm glad everyone survived more or less o.k.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Again, all pretty judgmental. The couple who decided to top out despite being warned to the contrary clearly made their own bed. Hari sounds like he was on the ground when that couple hit the terrace and decided they were in trouble. I'm also unclear if the cry for help came from the three women attempting to rap the gully (who did make it down on their own), or from the couple up on the terrace - in either case a pretty tough situation given the conditions at that point - that gully blows when dry, let alone streaming.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Piton Ron and Joseph nailed it.
You weren't there Lamebone. You are coming off like a total dickhead up there. You weren't there and you don't know Matt, so lose the halo, it don't wear well.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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How did you sleep that night knowing those people were in serious trouble?
My crew would have returned to the car for more layers/rain gear, etc. and hot tea and then made an attempt at some sort of intervention with warm sleeping bag/clothes for the victims. Of course, as you say, I was not there and perhaps you did not have the necessary rescue gear.
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hoipolloi
climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
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Damn. Those SAR boys in Vegas sound like a bunch of sissies. I can't believe that the weather in Vegas was SO BAD that they could't do anything.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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I fully expect to run into folks that are inefficient on long moderate routes. For them to move faster may very well invite a more catastrophic accident.
It is helpful to see an analysis of the incident and point out opportunities to learn. Time sinks into a black hole when you are at your limit and facing new circumstances. Hypothermia affects your ability to reason and your coordination. You don't expect stellar mental performance from a hypoxic person at altitude. It is equally unreasonable to expect perfect decision making and flawless execution of a variety of techniques from folks becoming hypothermic. If you have no experience with this condition, you may not recognize it in yourself or in your team. It can incapacitate you very quickly, particularly if you have other factors that cause you to decompensate quickly. Generally, you will recognize that a lot quicker the second time around - should you survive round one.
BTW - virtually all SAR want you out of the way and limit the number of bodies they have to carry. They often view all bystanders as potential victims rather than a resource to help. They aren't going to tell you that you should have stayed to help.
I wasn't there. I have great empathy for those facing that situation. I do know that there have been wonderful souls who joined forces to get multiple parties off faster at the cost of a little more time for themselves. I try to pay to that forward. Someone has taken each of us under their wing to pass the torch. I still have more to learn and would like to be "swifter, stronger, faster". That won't make me a better human being. I know many elite jerks and some wonderful people who have great tech skills.
Many times people won't accept pearls of wisdom. They may need the struggle to really learn. When the situation is clearly out of control, they need help and not an education. Just like the guy that doesn't want step by step beta, respect that difference. Yes, there are consequences. They won't understand the trade-offs and consequences because they lack the experience. Red Rocks is a big place. Get on an easy trade route, expect what you saw.
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WBraun
climber
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I would have immediately ran to the deli and drank nice hot chocolate while waiting for the nice warm sun to reappear.
I remember Lambone standing in the meadows watching The Japaneses dieing on El Cap.
I didn't see him running to the top to save them.
Instead he gave us all kinds verbiage here on this forum afterwards ......
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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This is the sort of thing where guidebooks and their writers can carry some of the load, emphasizing the skills and equipment required for a route, common problems encountered, the seriousness of the environment, and so on. To take an example, mentioning that parties of three usually climb at 150 - 200% of the speed of parties of two. Or that a standard rappel route is complicated, often sees rope hangups, and is in a gully subject to rockfall and runoff.
Or put "Yer gonna die!!!666!!!" in big bold letters inside the cover.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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I don't think you can make a judgment about SAR. You have no idea how many missions they have been on that day/weekend/week. You don't know where their resources are, where their gear is, what skills were readily available. etc. SAR is almost always volunteer, and instant response time should never be expected as they aren't sitting at the base of every cliff waiting for your call.
My little 25 person team may have 8 - 10 available most weekends, and our territory is huge. When a call comes in, a decision has to be made about the need and urgency. When an activation happens, people need to tell the command their availability and ETA. Planning needs to happen about getting the right people and equipment in, how to coordinate, how to access, on and on. FOlks expect urban 911 EMS response in a wilderness/park setting. That can't be.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Perhaps you could have expedited by assisting them locate the victims.
http://lvmpdsar.blogspot.com/2011/04/q1-2011-mission-detail.html
Mountain Rescue Missions:
32 missions
40 people rescued
15 people were injured
2 Fatalities – Both ATV Related
MR Volunteers involved in 6 missions
8 Missions Involving four- wheeling accidents or stranded folks
21 Missions involving lost or injured hikers
3 Missions involving stuck or injured climbers
Dive Team:
Missions of Interest:
On 3/12/11, SAR Officers along with two Mountain Rescue civilian volunteers conducted a technical rescue in Pine Creek Canyon on Dark Shadows (5.8). A male climber fell while leading pitch three and decked on the pitch two belay ledge. Other climbs still on the route were able to immediately assist the climber and his partner and make the emergency notification. The climbers on the route, along with several hikers and climbers at the base of the route assisted SAR personnel with the evacuation of the injured climber. (Pictures attached of Jason being helicopter in to the mouth of the canyon, for this rescue).
On 3/16/11 SAR Officers along with seven Mountain Rescue volunteers responded to Juniper Canyon with a report of two experienced climbers who were significantly overdue. The climbers were located on the Brownstone wall, approximately 20 feet off the canyon floor and approximately 600 feet from the top of the canyon wall. Due to high winds, helicopter operations were limited. Ultimately, the climbers were rescued unharmed after approximately 17 hours on a belay ledge. The climbers were prepared for the cool weather and were in excellent shape when the rescue team arrived at their location. This rescue started simply with a struck rope on rappel.
On 3/23/11 SAR Officers responded to Oak Creek Canyon for a report of two climbers stranded on the Solar Slab Terrace in an extreme spring storm which included rain, snow, temperatures in the low 30’s and wind gusts over 60 mph. The climbers were not prepared with wet weather gear and became hypothermic very quickly. Due to extreme weather, it took several hours to locate and get personnel to the climbers. Both climbers did a good job of self rescue and were able to get themselves off the technical terrain, but had become hypothermic to the point of incapacitation. Both climbers were evacuated by SAR personnel with the assistance of Metro Rescue Pilots. Core body temperatures were in the high 70’s to low 80’s. Proper equipment preparation is key to survival when things start to go wrong!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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I remember Lambone standing in the meadows watching The Japaneses dieing on El Cap.
I didn't see him running to the top to save them.
Instead he gave us all kinds verbiage here on this forum afterwards ......
Werner, I think a rescue half-way up El Cap is very different than a rescue half way up a moderate route in Red Rocks. Ya know? Apples unt oranges.
My crew would have returned to the car for more layers/rain gear, etc. and hot tea and then made an attempt at some sort of intervention with warm sleeping bag/clothes for the victims. Of course, as you say, I was not there and perhaps you did not have the necessary rescue gear.
I agree. My crew would have probably reacted similarly I believe.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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The last people you want simul-rappelling is a bunch of beginners! Crikey - rapping is dangerous enough, rapping in the rain and the dark on an unfamiliar route even more so... add beginners and then simul-rapping, are you kidding!?
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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I can give the OP the benefit of the doubt that climbing up to help the stranded couple was not safe or realistic.
Doesn't change the fact that I think the premise and delivery of this thread is pretty lame.
Apparently a few others agree.
Personally I couldn't with a good conscious just walk away from climbers yelling for help. If I was in that situation I would have gone back to the car for any warm gear and gone back to the base to wait until they rapped.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Also, and as I understand it, the whole LV SAR thing is somewhat unusual and that it's actually illegal for a non-SAR person to attempt a rescue in RR - or at least that's how it was explained to me the night I stealth humped a load into SS from the highway at midnight anyway and did a rescue under similar (though dry and cold) circumstances when the SAR guys weren't available. I also believe there is some cloudy (to me anyway) distinction between the long-time locals who do rescues and the formal LV SAR guys. All in all, nothing about the whole LV / RR SAR thing seemed straightforward and that maybe there is some tension between them and the locals (again, never really got a real clear picture of the situation).
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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The better suggestion is just don't climb busy routes in threesomes which, by definition, are clusterf*#ks from the get-go.
I respectfully disagree.
Parties of three are often clusterfux, yes.
But for parties of three that have their sh#t together, their is very little time lost in climbing as a party of three.
Threesomes are fun--that's what it's all about, isn't it, especially on classic mods?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Bleuy...
No offense meant, really...
But your crew likely would have been the one's needing rescue.
No offense, Matt, but you're full of crap as usual. And it's not cool to insult people you've never climbed with based on their abilities. Have you ever even met the dudes I climb with???
Pfft!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Threesomes are fun--that's what it's all about, isn't it, especially on classic mods?
To each his own I guess; I dislike (roped) threesomes.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Matt, it was me who got us off the dome safely. We had a stuck rope, sure, but that was after getting to the ground safely. Thanks to me.
I would have rapped the other route but people were coming up it. I didn't want to interfere.
Read it again. Putz....
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Ezra Ellis
Trad climber
WA, & NC & Idaho
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Threesomes are fun
The most sage advice in the tread....:)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Matt, we bailed because neither of us could figure out how to get across the notch safely. The jug-fest is AFTER the notch, which features a exposed 150' sheer face on one side.
Also, we were unsure of the route rinding after looking across the notch to the route.
Point being - we called for a bail. And did it. No injuries. Should we have pushed our uncertainties and doubts? That seems unsafe.
I don't climb to prove anything. I do it for fun. We weren't having fun, and the timeline was running thin too.
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ochotona
Social climber
The Portal, CA
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Yeah, some of my friends were coming out late that night from the SS area and we went out looking for them. The craziest weather I've ever seen in Red Rocks - fully horizontal blowing rain - the kind that you get soaked standing for just a few minutes out in. I think another contributing factor was that people get casual about Red Rocks weather "It's vegas, the weather is always good..." wrong. Glad they survived and hopefully they learned some things.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sure are a lot of self-imagined armchair heroes on this thread.
Did you read the SAR report? Wind gusting to 60mph, temps low 30s, rain mixed with snow. Have you even been in a Red Rocks descent gully during heavy rain? Ever been borderline hypothermic and fading fast? Ever even seen legitimate 60mph wind?
Yet you're all SO VERY SURE you'd have done something differently.
And frankly Bluering, Matt is right, the only thing you'd be rescuing is the last beer from icy waters of the Igloo cooler.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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And frankly Bluering, Matt is right, the only thing you'd be rescuing is the last beer from icy waters of the Igloo cooler.
Wow! Seems you're leg-humpingly obsessed with insulting me lately. Nice work.
You are so awesome, man.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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That's his m.o. Get use to it. Elcapinyourazz trolls supertopo looking to exploit any weakness in those he considers inferior to himself.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Ya big words coming from a guy who hides behind an avatar.
You talking to me, superstar?
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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I was in this same situation on the same descent. Solar Slab Gully is not a easy obvious rap in the dark, as its ledgy and wierd in places, and some of the rap anchors are in non obvious places. We overtook some people as they began the rap in the dark and rain, and because I have been down the gully before I asked them if they minded if I went first and found the anchors and have them rap with us on the descent. They were happy to oblige and to get to mindlessly slide down the ropes, while I was happy to quickly thread the anchors, pull the ropes, get things done and moving quickly. Worked out well for all, and the four of us rocketed down the gully in good time, no epic for anyone.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Keep trying, Matt...you'll get your story right eventually!
Classic sign of disingenuous. Keep re-shaping the discussion until it fits into you puzzled world view. "oh, that didn't work, we'll try this angle!!!"
weak, dude....weak.
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Gal
Trad climber
a semi lucid consciousness
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+1 for what Studly did-this is how I would've dealt with it too.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Probably at least tried, Matt. Give it a go.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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#1 Don't make the situation worse.
#2 Don't make the situation worse.
#3 Don't make the situation worse.
Anyone who doesn't follow this, doesn't belong in SAR, nor doing any rescuing of anybody.
The OP saved the rescuees lives, by placing the phone call, and sitting on the phone for 45 min.
No one was going up that wall that night. Doesn't sound like anyone was coming down, either.
The 3 women? They were there, too. I don't hear any criticism of them? Why not? As far as we know, didn't even bother with a phone call, and they were ON THE WALL, when cries for help were occurring.
If the OP had returned to the base of the wall with "stuff", he would still be sitting there.
Let SAR run the incidents. They are trained to do so, we are not.
Don't make things worse.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Well to fuel the flame of this exploding thread...
Sorry, but I find it hard to believe hiking an approach trail back and forth to the base of a crag to the car and back is going to kill you or cause you needing to be rescued. I don't care how bad the storm is. I suppose if you didn't have extra warm gear in the car it's a moot point since the gates are locked after dark.
I find it kinda suprising the SAR couldn't send a hasty team up to the base with some warm gear.
:::waits for werner to slam me for questioning SAR protocol:::
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Did you read the SAR report? Wind gusting to 60mph, temps low 30s, rain mixed with snow.
This is the part I don't understand. People here are criticizing the OP for... For what, exactly? He warned the pair that darkness was falling and the weather was deteriorating, and suggested that they should head down. They didn't. They chose to go on in the face of the dark and the weather, without adequate clothing.
So, put yourself in the OP's place. You get down, and look up and see the headlamps bobbing about, and come to the realization that the two people are likely going to be stuck up there. You phone SAR, and eventually are told that no, there will be no SAR activity that night.
So, there you are. In darkness, in a storm of rain mixed with snow, with temps hovering just above freezing, and the wind howling at up to 60 mph.
And you are saying you'd have headed up four pitches and rescued them?
Really?
Have you actually ever tried climbing four pitches in a howling sleet storm? At night?
Easy to criticize from the comfort of your armchairs.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Yeah, something like that. The main difference being the dudes were a couple of my best friends, not just a couple of annoying noobs that got in my way earlier in the day. Ive also been on the sh#t end of that stick before needing rescue.
I think the main beef people have with the OP is how he obviously uses the fact that someone almost died as an excuse to whine about how slow gumbies clogged his 5 star 5.6 experience, forced him to run it out on variations and sling his own tree rappel anchors. Duh....
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Lamebone. Still the samebone.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Not as lame as supertopo these days.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Yeah, something like that. The main difference being the dudes were a couple of my best friends, not just a couple of annoying noobs that got in my way earlier in the day. Ive also been on the sh#t end of that stick before needing rescue.
I think the main beef people have with the OP is how he obviously uses the fact that someone almost died as an excuse to whine about how slow gumbies clogged his 5 star 5.6 experience, forced him to run it out on variations and sling his own tree rappel anchors. Duh....
Uhhh...no. This information is important in the context of how the OP was feeling during his climb, and why. This is generally important in understanding CONTEXT. In this story, it goes far in explaining that the OP was already somewhat hypothermic. Duh, indeed.
Why, the HELL, do we care about your ignorant friends or yourself. Not every thread is about YOU and YOUR idiot mistakes, nor do we want to hear about YOU.
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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I appreciate that Harihari posted this story. It is extremely valuable to get first person reports and perspectives.
Seems like the weather was the critical factor and you can't predict that. Without the weather the stranded couple would have had an uncomfortable cold night and a funny story. Has happened to most of us probably.
My impression is that the OP did his best to persuade and help the other parties. I won't question that. If he realized how bad the weather was going to get, he would have been a lot more adamant. If he had more experience getting large numbers of people down rappels quickly, he might have been more successful in moving the 3 ladies along, or they might have been just as intransigent. If he had enough warm gear in his car to safely go back up the mountain with extra gear for others (after protecting himself from hypothermia)maybe he would have done that, if he also had some hope of actually locating them.
My thoughts on the matter are just thoughts. I see no benefit in criticism.
Thanks again for posting this account. Gives most of us stuff to think about. Gives others a new topic to argue about.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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I am with Ghost on this one. I have been in similar situations where I tried as nicely and as non-threatingly as possible to give other climbers advice that would keep them from making serious mistakes. Almost all of those attempts were met with the same "don't tell ME what to do!"
It is one thing if you are all in the same situation for the same reason. But, putting your life on the line for someone who most likely is in dire straits because they told you to 'get lost' when you offered some very good advice is a completely different situation.
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jstan
climber
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We all have been in situations where speed made the whole difference. So it is this thread has everyone so jacked up. Two things to realize.
1. Such things are going to keep on happening.
2. If you were not there, it is best to say nothing.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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We all have been in situations where speed made the whole difference. So it is this thread has everyone so jacked up. Two things to realize.
1. Such things are going to keep on happening.
2. If you were not there, it is best to say nothing.
I love it when people write posts telling other people that they shouldn't say anything.
I guess deep in our hearts, we all believe rules are for other people.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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The thing that makes Lamebone's posturing so distasteful is that he was rescued himself from Glacier Peak about 10 years ago.
He's such a toughguy in the armchair today, but when he was actually in a similar situation...sudden turn in weather and ill equipped to descend in those conditions, no heroic antics ensued. Instead, the phone came out and a rescue was launched.
Morning came after what seemed like an eternity, yet the sun did not offer any relief. Visibility was still 0 and wind continued to howl. We call back to let 911 know of our situation. We were cold, wet, and beat, and I did not feel confident that I could lead us safely down the Sitcum in the whiteout. I knew we could do it with enough time, but given’ the conditions I assumed that one navigation error could lead to hypothermia and big trouble. Then I learned that our partner forgot to pack shell gloves, and the situation became even grimmer.
Attack the messenger if you want Lambone, the fact is you're a hypocrite and self-imagined armchair hero, and it's a pattern of behavior with you.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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All I know is that Joseph set the bar real damn high. I'll screw the story up but it's most likely close to this. He was walking out at the end of a full value day climbing and hears "help help" from up high. Some people had gotten their rope stuck on rappel, and they are asking to get SAR sent out to get them down. JH says he will as and does. Turns out, they aren't going to get to it that night, so the benighted party will get to sit on a ledge and freeze in t-shirts and shorts till the AM when sar is planning on going.
Not finding anyone interested in getting it done, JH grabs his sh#t, drives out to the park exit, hikes the 4 or 5 miles down the road, then up the trail to the base of the climb. Rope solos a 5.9 in the freezing cold and pitch dark, getting to the extremely grateful people who believe that he has actually saved their lives at 3am.
That said: I wasn't in the area or I'd have been with him to help, and I'm going with the usual wisdom of Jstan on this issue as well. None of us were there for this incident, and the original posters actions did save these folks.
Warm regards to all
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Why, the HELL, do we care about your ignorant friends or yourself. Because ghost asked...
Elcapinyoura*#, I love how you bring that up everytime you need something to use against me. You are awesome. But I don't get your point. From my experience I know what it feels like to be helpless and stranded. So no I couldn't just walk away from people needing help. Maybe you think I'm full of sh#t. Go f*#k yourself.
Even if I wasn't capable of helping, I wouldnt go posting a thread here sh#t talking the poor people to make some kind of example of them.
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Lambone does have a few points here, whether he is trolling or not.
Expecting advanced climbing from noobs on a 5.6 is a bit much.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Because ghost asked...
And I appreciate your answer. Certainly no intent on my part to get in anyone's face. I just felt that given the conditions (rain/snow mixed, darkness, temps near freezing, winds near 60) that virtually no one would be able to do anything, and that harshly-worded criticism was uncalled for.
I still feel that way.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nice locker. I think that is a photo of somebody in this thread.
Who is the ringmaster for this circus anyway?
Oh yeah, thats right, largely absent.
How Lord Of The Flies do we have to get anyhow?
I've worked with SAR teams since the '70s.
When it comes to SAR work the hardest task of all means being a hero and the easiest task of all means being a fukking monday morning quarterback.
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harihari
Trad climber
Squampton
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2011 - 02:44pm PT
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Lambone, you come off as a jerk, but you do bring up good points, so thanks for that. As the OP I have a few things to add
a) It was, categorically, impossible to re-climb the route to help the in-danger party. Lambone, you know what sandstone does when it's wet?
b) It was also impossible to stay there-- we were getting slowly soaked, freezing, without food or shelter, etc. ANY SAR person will tell you two things-- don't make the situation worse, and take care of yourself.
c) The snails were annoying but didn't cause anybody problems other than slowing the descent.
d) It was impossible to sleep that night, knowing that those folk were out there and there was little we could do.
e) Sorry about the thread title, I just wanted folks to have the chance to see how easily (and quickly) things can go pear-shaped. BTW I've had self-induced idiot epics too, but I have not had to be rescued.
f) Also, you don't second-guess SAR. That evening there was also a rescue of a hiking party, and so maybe SAR were busy, exhausted, minus available climber-rescuers, etc etc. Not my place to question their leadership.
And to BASE-- dunno who you are, but I certainly don't recall laughing at the situation the next day, or bagging on gumbies.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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harihari,
I admit to being a jerk to you. That is because when I first read your "trip report" it really kinda pissed me off. Mainly the way it was written as opposed to the circumstances of the event. I also get the whole point of 'sharing the story so everyone can learn the lesson.' That's admirable enough, I just don't think it needs to be done in a derogatory way, the climbers suffered enough. I guess my reaction probably came from how I felt after my rescue experience and everyone tore me up for it.
I felt like some assumptions were made about what went wrong with the victim party that really you may not have been in the position to make. Who knows why they were benighted? Maybe they had a rope get stuck or something...I felt like you really tore them up as being inadequate climbers. But you weren't in there shoes, and even though you were in the proximity, you don't even have all the information.
I get it now that it was not possible to go up and help them and I take your word for it. My first post in this thread was "Why the f*#k didn't you go back up and help them?" That was not really fair to you, and I didn't have a good grip on how bad the weather was.
And ranting on about the "snails," yeah noobs are slow, but thats what you get for putting yourself in the position of being on the route with them. My advice is next time your plan is to climb a 5star noob classic at Red Rocks, be the first car at the gate in the morning. That's what my wife and I do and it has worked in our favor. Personally I don't think that advising beginners to do things like simo-climb or rappel when they can barely manage the traditional method is really appropriate. The advice of bringing clothing for any conditions is probably the wisest in there, having even a windbreaker would have made a huge difference for them.
Anyway, I'm glad everyone is ok.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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I remember Lambone standing in the meadows watching The Japaneses dieing on El Cap.
I didn't see him running to the top to save them.
Is this fair? He offered to go to the top, but your crew didn't take him up on it.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=43362&msg=43558#msg43558
I wanted to do more, but it was really henious out, even on the ground, we were freezing standing in the meadow under a tarp. About all I could do was keep some of the YOSAR guys company and fetch hot coffee. It was a terrible feeling. I volounteered to help cary loads to the top, but they seemed to have it covered and wern't really looking for help.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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There wasn't really anything I could do to help those guys in that situation, except for maybe humping in loads from the road above. But i didn't have the gear to be wallowing in three feet of snow...I didn't even have a real pair of boots with me....we were there to climb walls in the sun. That was a real upsetting event for everyone and it still makes my gut tie up in a knot thinking about it.
I posted some inappropriate stuff at the time about YOSAR, and in hindsight regret doing that, and that's what Werner is hinting at...I don't blame him. Goes to show things you say on the Taco may show up years later to haunt you.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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I don't know this area, and the only rescues I have ever done were in the water, so I ask this hesitantly, and not to hack on anyone.
Wouldn't it have been decent for someone to take a bullhorn out there and let them know that help would be coming? Maybe Not right away, but eventually. I just wonder how they felt when no one responded to their calls for help. Or did the OP communicate with them? He doesn't say. I think that it might help me to at least know that someone is aware that you need help.
Just asking.
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harihari
Trad climber
Squampton
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2011 - 06:56pm PT
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We yelled that we were calling 911. Yes, somebody could have gone out there...but again, SAR has not said what took them. A guy came the next day and said that SAR had evacked the climbers in the AM. Dunno if they (SAR) were out there in the evening or not. We did not have access to a bullhorn.
Lambone, I probably shoudl have left out the bit about the snail party (they were annoying but they didn't hurt anybody). I usually don't climb under 5.10 in RR cos of the lineups these days, unless I sc hlepp beers with me to make the rap hang-outs fun. I was out with a beginnerish pal that day so we chose a moderate.
It woudl be cool to hear from SAR why they didn't go out there (on the ground) that evening.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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We promised the three gals in our case that someone would be coming for them, and after making calls on the way back into town and finding out no one was available that promise really started eating at me. In the end I went back out, but the conditions, while cold and windy, were dry and so it was a much, much more doable deal than in this case. I was glad I did as from the highway and hike back in I could see them vainly flashing a headlamp on and off occasionally, it was in fact damn cold, and a couple of them were in pretty bad shape when I did finally get to them.
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WBraun
climber
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You can easily second guess just about any situation.
But SAR teams are just that "Teams"
There might be a couple of hotshots on any team that can pull off some heroics but that's not what SAR stands for.
It's Team effort. The hotshots still require the support from the rest of the organization.
The team leader or incident commander is responsible for everyone. If anyone on the team gets in trouble during an incident the whole thing gets compromised. If you get yourself in a predicament and need help then it's your ass on the line.
Sar does not want to put their asses on the line unless the odds are 100% in their favor.
If you die before they get there that's the way it goes. Sar does not have the consciousness of unnecessary heroics where it will compromise their own safety.
That's just the way they operate.
Some Sar teams are are much better then others in their particular environments.
You'd have to ask the SAR team from Las Vegas what their particular reasons for their responses were to make a judgement.
Most likely they did not have expertise to pull anything off in that weather.
You can't depend on SAR. SAR is only a last resort.
Then ..... you are at their mercy for whatever they can provide.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Nice post radical...I like your perspective.
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Dolomite
climber
Anchorage
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This thread seems to have righted its way back to civility and common sense. Good work--doesn't happen often here. Glad they made it out okay.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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I understand about not putting people at risk. I just wonder if anyone thinks about the things like what those people must have felt like if they didn't know if anyone was coming for them. To me it would help me fight a lot harder if I believed someone was coming for me. Especially if I know that they can't get to me overnight, but maybe in the morning. It is a hope thing. People last a lot longer in survival situations if they have hope.
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harihari
Trad climber
Squampton
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 8, 2011 - 04:47pm PT
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One thing I noticed was that the in-distress party did not visually signal.
FYI for the rest of you all (you probably know this), the universal signal for "help" is dot-dot-dot-DASH DASH DASH dot-dot-dot. Three shorts, three longs, three shorts, be it on whistle or via headlamp. The in distress party should have done that-- we just barely heard "help" but we could see their lights.
My SAr friends say the operative plan is always personal safety first, team safety second, safety of person being rescued last. This because, as somebody above said, heroic (or just not looking around) turns rescuers into rescuees and compounds the problem.
Lambone, if you knew the two climbers (if memory serves they were from Broomville (?) Colorado, or somethign like that) it woudl be cool to hear how they are faring.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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I agree it's weird they yelled for help at all since they were eventually able to make it to the ground ok on their own sometime in the night. Not like they were stranded. who knows...
I don't know em. But yeah it'd be cool to get their side of the story.
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WBraun
climber
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4. "Always knot the bottom of the double strands tied together so
you don't rap off your ropes."
No, don't do that "ALWAYS"
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Apr 10, 2011 - 12:44am PT
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Ditto LOL.
But...since we are hoping on soapboxes...
I don't know about you guys but in my pack on any longer multipitch in Red Rocks, the Valley or wherever is a thin fleece and windbreaker (waterproof if any chane of rain).
Seems prudent. my 2 cents of sage advice.
I get really grumpy on a cold windy belay ledge without layers.
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Rudder
Trad climber
Long Beach, CA
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Apr 10, 2011 - 01:43am PT
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No, don't do that "ALWAYS"
Agreed.
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NoRushNoMore
climber
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Apr 10, 2011 - 06:04am PT
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Was in RR the same weekend. On Sat, rapping of Triassic Sands wind blew the rope to the side and above the rap anchor. That always tie a knot at the end would have been a very bad idea.
Anybody can comment on the resque on Sat, Apr 2, at Black Velvet parking lot? Heli was hovering around for like 2 hours.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Apr 10, 2011 - 11:22am PT
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"Simulrapping ought to be standard." No it should not be. You went on a climb you knew was taken & then you left someone that asked for help. What is wrong with you? Never rap on one line unless your life is about to end. There aren't enough climbs at RR that you need to jam someone else?
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harihari
Trad climber
Squampton
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 11, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
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Good points all, except Frumy-- read the whole thread, your comments will have been addressed.
Dunno why people are down on simul-rapping (unless you are a noob in which case caution is in order). For me and partners it's standard-- much faster, plus if you do miss a rap (which is less liekly with four eyes and sets of headlamps), you can both move up together (if you rap down on your own, jugging on two lines, or one knot-jammed side, takes longer). Plus, in RR, in the case of wind, you can stack the ropes and rap with them (each climber takes one) so you reduce issues re: hung ropes.
RR seems to have lots of decent bolted anchors; simulrapping is not something I would do when bailing off a couple of bail nuts.
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GI Joe
Trad climber
Fairfield CA
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Apr 16, 2011 - 09:20pm PT
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Nothing has changed I see. Prepare to be pissed off if you are in there this time of year below another party. I think the dabblers drive straight from the REI in Orange county to Solar slab for their first attempt at real rock. Bouldering V6 on plastic means zilch and they spend the night in their short pants way up there. Welcome to reality.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 16, 2011 - 09:40pm PT
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harihari,
did you really just suggest that bolts are always better than nuts?
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| Messages 1 - 111 of total 111 in this topic |
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