Huge 8.9 quake plus tsunami - Japan

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Greg Barnes

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 11, 2011 - 02:17am PT
USGS estimate just went from 7.9 to 8.9, hope people are OK. Tsunami warnings up from Russia to Hawaii, early reports of tsunami hitting coast of Japan with major damage:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/10/501364/main20041987.shtml?tag=breakingnews

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12709598

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/eqinthenews/2011/usc0001xgp/
QITNL

climber
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:24am PT
Wow, this is a bad one. Good luck to our Japanese friends.
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pic and missing my mama.
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:24am PT
We are next in line. Get your emergency earthquake kit ready.
crøtch

climber
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:27am PT
Never seen anything like this. Tsunami hitting the Japan coast now. Unimaginable disaster. :-(
QITNL

climber
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:28am PT
Tsunami watch (not a warning) for Bay Area Coast 9:46 AM.
Hawaii 2:59 AM.
(As reported - updated 11:39 AM)
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:35am PT
The NOAA tsunami warning/alert/watch website:
http://www.weather.gov/ptwc/?region=1&id=pacific.2011.03.11.064306

It's currently described as an expanding regional warning.
Nohea

Trad climber
Sunny Aiea,Hi
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:44am PT
Wow 8.9 is a freakin bump....ganbate,fighto my Nihonjin Buddies!

At least a 3 am arrival will minimize the nut jobs sitting outside pops.

Aloha,
Will
D.Eubanks

climber
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:45am PT
I was there after the Kobe earthquake, building emergency housing.

This hits close to home.
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pic and missing my mama.
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:57am PT
Jan?!?! You alright over there? Dang it...

Heck, Debbie is in Yokosuka-shi. She better be alright or I'm going to have one hell of a break down.

QITNL

climber
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:58am PT
Bump: If you know somebody in the region which may be affected by the upcoming tsunami, you should let them know.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:58am PT
hey there say, ohmy... this is very awful .... :(

i will be praying.. man oh man, i am glad i am awake now, to hear this, and not hearing it later...

how can anyone help anyone when this happens :(


also, keep us informed for hawaii, as well...
:(
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:59am PT
Jan was ok as of a few minutes ago


Jan: Mar 10, 2011 - 10:49pm PT
Tom-

We haven't felt a thing in Okinawa although we may yet as we haven't had a really bad quake here in many years.

Edit: I have a couple of NASA friends over there who are ok, but a couple of others that we haven't heard from...
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:00am PT
hey there say, anastasia... i know two gals in japan, that are dear friends, too....

not to mention that everyone is dear to others, there, too... :(


oh my... prayer alert... we must pray...
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:01am PT
hey there say, tom... thanks for lettting us know...
god blesss...
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pic and missing my mama.
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:04am PT
Thanks Tom, you are awesome. Hopefully Jan is just busy keeping himself safe.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:13am PT
huge tsunami sweeping inland along japanese coast

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKh-QaeT6rc
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:19am PT
hey there say, tom, jan, or anyone tha knows japan...
i dont know how much city, provence, etc, or whatever
to write, so here is all of it, but not the personal numbers:

where is this area, this is my friend's town, area, etc:

issiki
hayama mirura
kanagawa

and where, please, is this area:

equchi kata
nakai cho
matsudo shi
chiba ken

please, let me know if these are near those danger areas,
thanks, if you can...
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:19am PT
Okinawa is ok - no shaking, but the loud speakers have been announcing tsunami warnings for our eastern Pacific Coast - a tsunami of 2 meters (6 1/2 ft.) is predicted.

The TV footage from up north looks horrific. I'm sure the American military in Okinawa is readying disaster relief teams as I write.

Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pic and missing my mama.
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:19am PT
My friend Matt is in Guam, they are evacuating now. If a tsunami hits it will be within the hour.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:24am PT
http://www.weather.gov/ptwc/

000
WEHW40 PHEB 110731
TSUHWX
HIZ001>003-005>009-012>014-016>021-023>026-110931-
/O.CAN.PHEB.TS.A.0001.000000T0000Z-000000T0000Z/
/O.NEW.PHEB.TS.W.0001.110311T0731Z-000000T0000Z/
BULLETIN
TSUNAMI MESSAGE NUMBER 3
NWS PACIFIC TSUNAMI WARNING CENTER EWA BEACH HI
931 PM HST THU MAR 10 2011
TO - CIVIL DEFENSE IN THE STATE OF HAWAII
SUBJECT - TSUNAMI WARNING
A TSUNAMI WARNING IS ISSUED FOR THE STATE OF HAWAII EFFECTIVE AT
0931 PM HST.
AN EARTHQUAKE HAS OCCURRED WITH THESE PRELIMINARY PARAMETERS
ORIGIN TIME - 0746 PM HST 10 MAR 2011
COORDINATES - 38.2 NORTH 142.5 EAST
LOCATION - NEAR EAST COAST OF HONSHU JAPAN
MAGNITUDE - 8.8 MOMENT
MEASUREMENTS OR REPORTS OF TSUNAMI WAVE ACTIVITY
GAUGE LOCATION LAT LON TIME AMPL PER
DART 21413 30.5N 152.1E 0659Z 0.76M / 2.5FT 32MIN
HANASAKI HOKKAIDO J 43.3N 145.6E 0657Z 2.79M / 9.2FT 76MIN
DART 21401 42.6N 152.6E 0643Z 0.67M / 2.2FT 40MIN
DART 21418 38.7N 148.7E 0619Z 1.08M / 3.5FT 06MIN
LAT - LATITUDE (N-NORTH, S-SOUTH)
LON - LONGITUDE (E-EAST, W-WEST)
TIME - TIME OF THE MEASUREMENT (Z IS UTC IS GREENWICH TIME)
AMPL - TSUNAMI AMPLITUDE MEASURED RELATIVE TO NORMAL SEA LEVEL.
IT IS ...NOT... CREST-TO-TROUGH WAVE HEIGHT.
VALUES ARE GIVEN IN BOTH METERS(M) AND FEET(FT).
PER - PERIOD OF TIME IN MINUTES(MIN) FROM ONE WAVE TO THE NEXT.
NOTE - DART MEASUREMENTS ARE FROM THE DEEP OCEAN AND THEY
ARE GENERALLY MUCH SMALLER THAN WOULD BE COASTAL
MEASUREMENTS AT SIMILAR LOCATIONS.
EVALUATION
A TSUNAMI HAS BEEN GENERATED THAT COULD CAUSE DAMAGE ALONG
COASTLINES OF ALL ISLANDS IN THE STATE OF HAWAII. URGENT ACTION
SHOULD BE TAKEN TO PROTECT LIVES AND PROPERTY.
A TSUNAMI IS A SERIES OF LONG OCEAN WAVES. EACH INDIVIDUAL WAVE
CREST CAN LAST 5 TO 15 MINUTES OR MORE AND EXTENSIVELY FLOOD
COASTAL AREAS. THE DANGER CAN CONTINUE FOR MANY HOURS AFTER THE
INITIAL WAVE AS SUBSEQUENT WAVES ARRIVE. TSUNAMI WAVE HEIGHTS
CANNOT BE PREDICTED AND THE FIRST WAVE MAY NOT BE THE LARGEST.
TSUNAMI WAVES EFFICIENTLY WRAP AROUND ISLANDS. ALL SHORES ARE AT
RISK NO MATTER WHICH DIRECTION THEY FACE. THE TROUGH OF A TSUNAMI
WAVE MAY TEMPORARILY EXPOSE THE SEAFLOOR BUT THE AREA WILL
QUICKLY FLOOD AGAIN. EXTREMELY STRONG AND UNUSUAL NEARSHORE
CURRENTS CAN ACCOMPANY A TSUNAMI. DEBRIS PICKED UP AND CARRIED
BY A TSUNAMI AMPLIFIES ITS DESTRUCTIVE POWER. SIMULTANEOUS HIGH
TIDES OR HIGH SURF CAN SIGNIFICANTLY INCREASE THE TSUNAMI HAZARD.
THE ESTIMATED ARRIVAL TIME IN HAWAII OF THE FIRST TSUNAMI WAVE IS
0259 AM HST FRI 11 MAR 2011
MESSAGES WILL BE ISSUED HOURLY OR SOONER AS CONDITIONS WARRANT.

QITNL

climber
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:31am PT
Glad to hear you are okay, Jan, we never met but I was thinking of you.

Good luck to our friends on other islands. I hope the wave fizzles before it reaches you.

The scenes from Japan are unbelievable.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:35am PT
live news feed from Hawaii
http://www.khvhradio.com/main.html


People are freaked! All the gas stations and food stores are packed with people buying everything.


Pomaika`i
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:36am PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKW_OdDXIE4
Nohea

Trad climber
Sunny Aiea,Hi
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:42am PT
Some r freaked...I'm chillin with a meritage. Hey there NeeBee Chiba stay north east of Tokyo, and Kanagawa is the prefecture just south of Tokyo....that is if my memory serves me correctly.

Me hopes the best for all.

Wake isle gets "hit" sooner than us so it may give some idea of the unknown approaching beast.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:52am PT
hey there say, nohea... thank you...
thank you for sharing...


wow... so many folks, also, were out and about, too...
one never really knows where anyone could be, as well...

:(
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:54am PT
Here's the official tsunami warning map from the Japan meterological society.

Credit: Jan


In answer to Neebee's concerns, Chiba and Kanagawa prefectures are on the coast in the red zone. Chiba-ken looks particularly vulnerable as the city is spread out along the coast on low lying ground.

I'll let you know when I hear more, but better keep praying Neebee.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:55am PT
hey there say, nohea... you all in hawaii are not forgotten, will surely be praying for all concerned... through the night, to morning, etc...

god bless...
take care, nohea and all...
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:57am PT
hey there jan, say, oh my.... oh my... and thank you... thank you jan...

keep keeping us informed, please...
will sure be praying... :(

Nohea

Trad climber
Sunny Aiea,Hi
Mar 11, 2011 - 04:01am PT
It's all good here...IF anyone in Hawaii gets injured from the potential tsunami, it will not be because they were not warned. Our thoughts go to those in Nippon.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 11, 2011 - 04:11am PT
Here's a map of all the earthquakes in Japan in the past 85 years.
You can see why they're generally well prepared.

Credit: Courtesy of the Japan Meteorological Society

Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pic and missing my mama.
Mar 11, 2011 - 04:17am PT

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2011/03/11/vo.japan.quake.cnn.cnn

This is so frightening... Those poor people!
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 11, 2011 - 04:24am PT
hey there say, ... as to that message,
about:
They are saying that the town of Kurihama, Japan has been totaly wiped out!

where is that? please...
does anyone have a map??
BooDawg

Social climber
Butterfly Town
Mar 11, 2011 - 04:29am PT
What are the predictions for NZ? Guido! Are you, Nantz, and Shanana OK?

I just emailed Guido's daughter, Kali. No response yet. I'll check Nancy's Facebook page...

Here's from NZ:

The Ministry of Civil Defence & Emergency Management (MCDEM) last night put in effect a tsunami potential threat advisory for New Zealand, following the 8.9 earthquake and 4-metre tsunami that hit Japan.

The ministry's web site said the advisory would remain in effect until it was upgraded to a national warning. or a cancellation message was issued.

The advisory was described as a "low grade" alert last night by Dunedin civil defence and rural fires manager Neil Brown.

He said the Pacific Tsunami Warning Centre had not included New Zealand specifically, but if the country was affected, it would be a West Coast-focused event.

The website said MCDEM and scientific advisers were assessing the severity of the threat to New Zealand.

People in coastal areas should stay off beaches: stay out of the water (sea, rivers and estuaries, includ ing boating activities); not go sightseeing; share informa tion with family, neighbours and friends; listen to the radio and/or TV for updates, and follow instructions of your local Civil Defence authorities.

neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 11, 2011 - 04:40am PT
hey there say, boo dawg... a gal just posted at another forum, from NZ, so far, she did not mention anything about their needing to evacuate, etc...

if she posts more, i will let you know..

hope this helps a bit...
:)
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pic and missing my mama.
Mar 11, 2011 - 04:44am PT
Debbie is in the red zone but since she is a flight engineer for the Navy.
I bet she's busy flying in emergency supplies, etc. (A very good reason for her not to be contacting us.)
AFS

QITNL

climber
Mar 11, 2011 - 04:44am PT
The Pacific Tsunami Warning Centre gave an estimated arrival time for any tsunami of 6.14am at the North Cape (NZ time Saturday).

Hope it doesn't hit too hard, prayers for those in Japan.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 11, 2011 - 05:00am PT
hey there say, thaDood, hope i spelled your handle right, will edit, if not...


say, thanks... i could not find much...

thank you...
BooDawg

Social climber
Butterfly Town
Mar 11, 2011 - 05:03am PT
I posted on Nancy's Facebook inquiring about their status and she posted the following:

Ken, thanks for your concern. We just got a pan-pan over VHF Ch. 16, and are monitoring the updates from warning to watch now. It's expected to hit us here around 6:14am our time tomorrow but ya never know how big (right now they say it could be around 1 meter). We're on the boat in the marina tied to the dock--we planned to head out to the islands in the morning, but may be driving to higher ground instead! Gonna be a restless night tonight. Poor Japan, and poor lots of other islands in the path--devastating.

More from Nancy:

Yes, we're fine for now. Just answered your wall post... tsunami expected to hit here at 6:14am tomorrow, around 1 meter, which in here would be kinda radical. We're definitely in the path, here in the marina, and if it looks too weird we'll get off the boat. Had planned to take off in the morning for some nice island anchorages, but we'll have to wait and see what happens now. Might want to move our cars to higher ground!

Thanks for asking... California must be on the tsunami watch list too?
djews

Social climber
sylacauga, alabama
Mar 11, 2011 - 05:05am PT
I have family in this area can anyone please tell me if it has been hit or in any danger????

Tsujidokandai Fujisawshi Kanagawa


Can anyone that knows this area please help????
QITNL

climber
Mar 11, 2011 - 05:07am PT
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/03/tsumani-warning.html

Small waves from tsunami likely to hit California on Friday morning

The tsunami may cause some unusually high tides but not major inundations.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 11, 2011 - 05:18am PT
djews-

Here's Fujisawa on Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujisawa,_Kanagawa
Tsujido is in the western end of the city.

They definitely got hit by the earthquake same as Tokyo and they are in the red zone for the tsunami. How they did all depends on whether they got away from the coast in time.

The Japanese tsunami sirens go off immediately and loudspeakers throughout the town would have told people to rush to higher ground. The only problem is that they would have had less than an hour's warning after the quake hit.

I'd be hopeful. If there's any country in the world where you would have a good chance of surviving such a disaster, it is Japan.
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pic and missing my mama.
Mar 11, 2011 - 05:24am PT
djews,
Google has activated a person finder page to help people locate their love ones.

http://japan.person-finder.appspot.com/?lang=en

Sending my best,
Anastasia
djews

Social climber
sylacauga, alabama
Mar 11, 2011 - 05:26am PT
Thank you all so much for this information...it is my 2 nephews that live ther and I am very worried.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 11, 2011 - 05:26am PT
hey there say, thaDood and anastasia and jan, thanks...

i will share the link with some others i know...

thank you all...


neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 11, 2011 - 05:38am PT
hey there say, djews... i am worried about two dear freinds, too, in the "red" zone...

i will be praying for yor family, too...

well, nite all, for now... i got to get a boy from
school tomorrow, and i need to sleep or i can't drive well...
djews

Social climber
sylacauga, alabama
Mar 11, 2011 - 05:45am PT
neebee,
thank you for the prayers your family and friends are in mine also...
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 11, 2011 - 07:02am PT
This appears to have been a massive rupture zone, hundreds of kilometers long potentially. The rim of fire has been restless this past couple of years.

Heart goes out to those folks. That could easily be California. These are the sorts of emergencies where I am happy to see the US military give assistance.

DMT
Aya K

Trad climber
New York
Mar 11, 2011 - 07:03am PT
Wow. My mom just got home from Tokyo the day before yesterday; she was looking at nursing homes from her father. I have loads of relatives in and around Tokyo and Kyoto, and Im feeling pretty awful not necessarily for myself - these are people whom I only meet once a decade or so - but for the way my mother and grandfather must be feeling (or will, when they wake up)

djews

Social climber
sylacauga, alabama
Mar 11, 2011 - 07:43am PT
Wanted to let everyone know...I got word from my family and they were hit but have escaped and are safe for now.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 11, 2011 - 09:00am PT
Hang tight Hawaii, its coming! I see some video of an entirely exposed reef at Diamond Head. This sort of drain and surge behavior is what got so many in Sumatra and Thailand, eh? Be careful my friends. What goes out always comes back.

DMT

ps. So far it doesn't look too bad for the islands.
D.Eubanks

climber
Mar 11, 2011 - 09:05am PT
Many thoughts and prayers for you Japan.



Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 11, 2011 - 09:26am PT
Good news about your family, djews! We just got a report that the U.S. airfields at Yokota and Yokusuka bases outside of Tokyo are up and running and essential supplies are being flown in through there since Narita is closed.

One good thing is that the Japanese prime minister announced earlier in the day that Japan would accept help from anywhere in the world. The previous government refused to do that after the Kobe earthquake and many died unnecessarily while foreign rescue teams were caught up in paperwork at the airport. This government is determined not to make the same mistake.
BooDawg

Social climber
Butterfly Town
Mar 11, 2011 - 09:35am PT
2nd wave is hitting Hawaii now; waves are about 2' high but the VOLUME OF WATER means people need to take care in coastal areas. Kahului harbor (Maui) saw a 5' wave; 2nd wave there was a 7' wave. No word from Hilo (which took heavy hits in 1946) yet.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Mar 11, 2011 - 09:54am PT
Having Jan in Okinawa and Guido in New Zealand (OK, he may actually be in his moms basement in Calif. dreaming of the South Island, but I'm going at face value here) which just got rocked, makes the work a smaller and more personal space for sure.

Thoughts and well wishes for everyone in those spots.
BooDawg

Social climber
Butterfly Town
Mar 11, 2011 - 10:10am PT
Guido's wife, Nancy, posted a link to this video on her F.B. page:

http://www.weatherwatch.co.nz/content/raw-videos-2-monster-tsunami-slamming-japan

PRETTY AMAZING!
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 11, 2011 - 10:20am PT
Thanks everyone for your good wishes.
It's been a nerve wracking day to say the least and a very sad one too.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Mar 11, 2011 - 10:26am PT
An interesting look at the quake activity so far this year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYdMIKhLT1Y&feature=rec-LGOUT-real_rn-2r-2-HM
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Mar 11, 2011 - 10:31am PT
can anyone explain why they are happening on the west pacific and not closer to the US?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 11, 2011 - 10:45am PT
No. They cannot. At least not with any degree of assurance. But clearly many are worried it will pick up here too. Keep in mind there are rift zones and spreading centers, between N America and Japan.

Here check this out, a simplified map showing general plate motion.



Notice how Japan is getting the Pacific plate essentially head-on; its diving beneath Japan. The Pacific plate is the oldest of ocean plates. The farther the ocean crust is from a spreading center the older it is. The older it is the colder it is. The colder it becomes the heavier it becomes and it eventually slips beneath Japan, in big lurches of course. It is going back to the firey cauldron from whence it came, the world's greatest conveyer belt system. A cycle of Pacific Ocean rocks erupting from the spreading center and then slowly lurching across the Pacific basis to Japan to eventually be consumed takes roughly 200 million years, give or take (lol).

Notice South America suffers a similar situation because of the spreading center off its coast, the Nazca plate? That spreading center used to be off the coast of California too and that spreading was responsible for the creation of the rocks in the Sierra, in the Montana and Idaho batholiths and down in Baja, as well as the coast ranges all the way from Baja to Alaska.

A good part of the US portion of that old spreading center was consumed under the edge of North America, because as you can see N America is in motion too. Once the N America overrode the spreading center the nature of the plate boundaries changed from head on clash to oblique angles. For reasons too complicated for me to try to type (as I am a lay person anyway), the old spreading center converted into a transverse fault - the San Andreas.

There is still some head on subduction off the coast of NorCal north of Mendocino, as well as all of Oregon and Washtington as the map clearly shows. Juan de Fuca. Its there, along that coast, where we might expect to see a similar sort of quake like the ones in Chile, Sumatra and Japan.

If the entire Juan de Fuca were to rupture all at once, it could produce a quake of similar magnitude to the one in Japan. There are raised shore lines along Washington and Oregon that suggest magnitude 8 quakes occur roughly every 300 years. Its been about 300 years since the last one....

That's not to say the entire Pacific plate in motion won't cause the San Andreas family of faults to lurch - very well could. But the mechanisms involved are very different.

The North American continental plate and the Pacific Plate are no longer in head-on collision mode. They are traveling sorta in the same direction now, the difference in that direction is manifest by the San Andreas.

Back in the day, Jurassic, that is... California was much more like Japan is today.

DMT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Mar 11, 2011 - 10:54am PT
interesting Ding, thanks!.. Ive been seeing a lot of theory on this-but as you point out, its all in art form thus far. With the under cutting of tectonic plates, one could theorize that Japan may end up tilting vertical????Much like the sierras???
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 11, 2011 - 11:07am PT
Earthquake prediction meaningful in terms of human reaction time is not even an art form yet, but the geology behind the main theories of all this is vastly deep and wide; this is all but settled from a large scale theory standpoint. There are millions of points of data that all confirm this general outlook, from oil well bores to deep ocean exploration to volcanism studies and on and on and on and on. Mountains of data.

But in regard to how Japan might evolve, look at it this way:



The subduction zone off the east coast of Japan is clearly visible. The darkest blue is the deepest part of the ocean there, the oldest part of the plate and the coldest and heaviest oceanic crust. That's the subduction zone.

A different way to look at it


So you can see there the area is complex and more than one plate affects Japan.

A cross section of the Phillipine plate subduction zone


Here is where the quakes have occurred along the Japan subduction zone


Notice how similar to the Juan de Fuca subduction quakes off the coast of Seattle and Portland



and notice on this earthquake plot of the Juan de Fuca
Juan de Fuca quake activity
Juan de Fuca quake activity
Credit: Dingus Milktoast
there is a roughly 900 mile long stretch that is very quiet when compared to coastal NorCal and British Columbia. Its that 'quiet stretch' that is so concerning to seismologists looking after the welfare of Seattle, Portland, et al. Its this stretch they suspect breaks in one massive chunk every 300 years or so. Look there for the truly Big One. I would not want to be in downtown Seattle, in land fill in a brick building, when that thing breaks again...

As far as the eventual fate of Japan...
This one, while backwards in a sense compared to the models above (its generic anyway but think of it as looking south from Alaska down the spine of Japan...).... this suggests the sort of folding and crumpling that happens in front of the subduction zone (or behind it - I can't remember how its expressed)



DMT

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Mar 11, 2011 - 11:25am PT
Thank you for the info!
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 11, 2011 - 11:29am PT
You're welcome. Being able to form a mental picture of what is going on in the Big Show, is to me the key to understanding the grand sweep of plate tectonics. If I can't model this in my head, if I can't form a picture, all backed by solid science mind you, I can't wrap my brain around any of it.

But once I form this picture, be it at the global view or locally along stretches of the Central Valley and the San Andreas, then it all clicks into place for me.

Till it moves again, that is.

DMT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Mar 11, 2011 - 11:31am PT
Nevada's fault lines have been active for a long time.. I was trying to correlate the goings on in my weak mind as well....
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Mar 11, 2011 - 11:43am PT
the magnitude of this disaster is not yet obvious. Really terrible.

At 8:15am, we see evidence for it in Santa Cruz. The water receded out of Cowells below the lowest of low tides then it filled back up over the next 10 minutes.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 11, 2011 - 11:43am PT
The Officials here in SoCal have, once again, over-reacted. This time by closing the beaches in anticipation of a tsunami surge of maybe a foot or two. At low tide.

Why is CNN giving the estimated West Coast tsunami times in Eastern Time?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 11, 2011 - 11:44am PT
Nevada faults active today are part of the basin and range faulting family related to the San Andreas. The uplift of the Colorado plateau, and the block faulting of Nevada are all related to the fact coastal california is being ripped off and sent to Alaska. It stretches at the edge of the continent and that stretching manifests itself all the way to Salt Lake City and the Wasatch Front range fault system.

The basin and range faults are again different from these boundary faults; listric faults along a detachment plane. Very hard to visualize this movement but....



These sorts of faults are responsible for Death Valley, et al and their twisting sort of motion and sliding along the detatchment planes is the mechanism that lopped off the top of the Panamints and transported them north to become the Black and Furnace mountains. Same thing with the Inyos, jerk out of the general line of the Sierra and transported north along the Owens valley fault system to their present location.

Very weird energy going on there.

Turtlebacks are amazing features once you understand what they are (thought to represent)a and how they got there.

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 11, 2011 - 11:45am PT
The Officials here in SoCal have, once again, over-reacted.

I just don't understand your attitude.

DMT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Mar 11, 2011 - 11:49am PT
hmmm beach front property here in CC....Lets just hope it takes a million or more years!!!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Mar 11, 2011 - 11:56am PT
dmt wrote,
Being able to form a mental picture of what is going on in the Big Show, is to me the key to understanding the grand sweep... If I can't model this in my head, if I can't form a picture, all backed by solid science mind you, I can't wrap my brain around any of it... But once I form this picture, be it at the global view or locally along stretches... then it all clicks into place for me.

Well said, dmt.

Now if the world applied this across the board, in other words, not just to earthquakes, it would have the makings (the wisdom) for a renewed basis in the practice of living.

.....

What's more, it's all mechanistic, cause n effect, too.

Knowledge is power.
Brokedownclimber

Trad climber
Douglas, WY
Mar 11, 2011 - 11:58am PT
Jan-
I hope that everyone here joins me in wishing you safety! This event lends new impetus to the old phrase "Head for the hills!"
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 11, 2011 - 11:59am PT
Nice graphics DMT. So I am wondering how strong the quake that hit Japan
in the late 1700's would have been in order to have caused the 150'
tsunami that hit the WA-OR coast? A 10.0? An 11.0?

Secondly, not to diminish this quake's import but it seems to have lasted
a minute or so. A good friend experienced the four minutes of the
9.4 Great Alaskan Quake. He says you can not imagine how long that really seemed.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 11, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
Now if the world applied this across the board, in other words, not just to earthquakes, it would have the makings (the wisdom) for a renewed basis in the practice of living.

.....

What's more, it's all mechanistic, cause n effect, too.

Knowledge is power.

Yep. Never denied any of that.

Cheers and thanks for the kind words
DMT
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 11, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
Seeing that aerial footage of the tsunami overrunning that highway where you can see that white van halt, its occupants realizing that they are about to be engulfed by a wall of debris, was terrible.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 11, 2011 - 12:08pm PT
"hmmm beach front property here in CC....Lets just hope it takes a million or more years!!!"


One of the CNN talking fools DID say "Carson City" was bracing for an eight-foot wave.

I think the talking fool meant to say "Crescent City", but didn't really know the difference.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 11, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
Westy my understanding is the metamorphic cores are far older than the block faulting, older than the granite that welled up beneath them too.

Turtlebacks are thought to be surface manifestations of the detatchment zone listric faults, where they come up out of the ground so to speak.

There are a few famous ones in Death Valley, like Copper canyon:



Turtle back is dark rock on left. Another view



Here is a model



Cheers
DMT
Brandon-

climber
Done With Tobacco
Mar 11, 2011 - 12:14pm PT
Woah.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Mar 11, 2011 - 12:21pm PT
So, DMT, any thoughts on my question from post #79?
Brandon-

climber
Done With Tobacco
Mar 11, 2011 - 12:25pm PT
Seems as if one of the nuclear plants can't pull enough juice to run the pumps that keep the core cooled.

That is a very scary thought.

My best thoughts go out to all those affected.
QITNL

climber
Mar 11, 2011 - 12:25pm PT
Boats in Santa Cruz harbor getting hit.
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Mar 11, 2011 - 12:30pm PT
10 m wave

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2011/03/11/von.quake.meeting.avn
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 11, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
So, DMT, any thoughts on my question from post #79?

As to the tsunami that hit NorCal in the 1700s, what sort of magnitude quake would it take?

I'm sure we could find that bit of calculation somewhere, and in my case that would be the only way I could answer it. I don't do geology I just try to understand some of the conclusions and theories of them that do.

There are methods to calculate how much land mass movement it takes to generate a certain magnitude quake. To get near a 9 up on the Juan de Fuca I recall someone saying the whole 900 mile stretch had to rupture at once.

The San Andreas for example, doesn't have the punch to move enough earth at once to go that high, or so the calcs suggest, apparently.

So I have to assume similar estimates can be made of tsunamis. But they are also affected by the depth of the quake, how far off shore, etc. And how much rebound is involved when the continental land mass snaps up afterward.

Lots of blah blah to say, I dunno!

DMT
go-B

climber
Sozo
Mar 11, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
Horrible, so glad your OK Jan, and pray that help can get to all asap!
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Mar 11, 2011 - 01:01pm PT
Chaz, Tsunami waves are different then wind created waves. Wind created waves are only on the surface. A Tsunami is a wave created by the earth moving beneath the sea. Either the earth moving up and down in a quake, or caused by a landslide under the water. So its not a surface wave, but a column of water racing across the ocean. This means that many things can affect how big it is when it finally comes ashore. A one meter tsunami can engulf a shoreline completely. Sweeping people out to sea, moving large ships. This is because it can have way more volume of water with it then a surface wave. Japan was just hit with a 21 foot wave. It gets hit by 21 foot wind driven waves every winter. They don't cause the same kind of damage because they don't have the same kind of volume of water with it, nor the same force.

So its not the height of the tsunami so much as it is the volume of water and the force which it arrives with that causes the damage. A one meter Tsunami with enough force can wash inland for miles. Sweeping cars, boats, and houses along with it.
Big Piton

Trad climber
Ventura
Mar 11, 2011 - 01:06pm PT
If you want to see live coverage of our tsunami in Ventura go to KTLA.com
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 11, 2011 - 01:08pm PT
It seems a warning would have been appropriate, not sending the cops to rope off the beaches with crime scene tape.

That's the over-reaction.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 11, 2011 - 01:10pm PT
I'm sorry the Japanese tsunami inconvenienced your day.

Next time turn off your telly and go fishing.

DMT
Majid_S

Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
Mar 11, 2011 - 01:11pm PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVq8GSLDchc&feature=related
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 11, 2011 - 01:17pm PT
No wind!

I've been watching.

John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Mar 11, 2011 - 01:18pm PT
The people who stand on the beach during one of these things just don't understand how Tsunamis work. Right now I don't think that we have the sensors available to truly predict how bad a tsunami will be because we can't tell how much force is coming with it. Crescent city california was his by one in 1964 and nearly wiped out. That same Tsunami did very little damage on the rest of the california coast. This is in part because of the direction the Tsunami was coming from, and the shape of the ocean floor leading up to Crescent city, which magnified the force.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Mar 11, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
It seems a warning would have been appropriate, not sending the cops to rope off the beaches with crime scene tape.

People are ignorant and willfully stupid. Better to spend the small amount of money needed to divert cops to the beach, versus having to mount rescues if the Tsunami turns out to be drastic. Just look at the video of the Tsunami hitting Japan. That is from a 21 foot wave. Most folks think a 21 foot wave will hit the shore and thats all. They don't realize that Tsunamis are a much different kind of wave. Plus they often come in groups. So the first one pushes a bunch of water ashore, and the nexts ones drive it further and further inland. A person isn't able to outrun these things. Just look at the video of the one in Japan, or the one that hit Taiwan.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Mar 11, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
The Tsunami that hit Indonesia in 2004 and killed 220,000 people was measured at 2 feet out at sea. It came ashore in some places at over 50 feet and others places more like a river, then a wave. The places it came ashore like a river had just as much damage as the places it came ashore as a giant wave. That is because its the amount of water flowing with the Tsunami more then it is the height.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 11, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
If 21-foot waves are expected, of course you move people out of the way.

Here, waves weren't even expected to hit two feet - less than the average daily tidal fluctuation.

Look where the wet sand is in Santa Monica:

http://media.myfoxla.com/live/santamonica/

High tide is higher than that.

John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Mar 11, 2011 - 01:39pm PT
f 21-foot waves are expected, of course you move people out of the way.

Here, waves weren't even expected to hit two feet - less than the average daily tidal fluctuation.

Look where the wet sand is in Santa Monica:

http://media.myfoxla.com/live/santamonica/

High tide is higher than that.

Read my post above. The Tsunami that hit Indonesia was only 2 feet out at sea. In some place it came ashore as only a 3 foot wave that was more like a river then a wave.


You really need to understand that it is the volume of water and the force with it that creates the damage. not the height of the wave.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 11, 2011 - 01:40pm PT
6.6 just hit.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 11, 2011 - 01:44pm PT
Seriously chaz next time there is a tsunami warning go out surf fishing. Since its always overblown and all......

DMT
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Mar 11, 2011 - 01:47pm PT
Water stops fire but what stops water?

An Italian saying an Italian said at a construction site one day after a minor epic.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 11, 2011 - 01:49pm PT
Did you see where the wet sand was in Santa Monica (closed) Beach, Mr Moosie?

They may as well close it every day for high tide.

Crescent City was expecting bigger waves, so clearing out the low lying areas makes sense there. ( I hope nothing happens to Beacon Burger )

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Mar 11, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
Chaz, the closures were for the UNKOWN factors of this incident. Public officials MUST choose the side of caution- that is there job.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
I repeat. The Tsunami that hit Indonesia was measured at 2 feet at sea. It killed 220,000 people. There is video of it coming ashore and it looks like a 3 foot wave. ( on that beach. on other shores it hit 50 feet ) That 3 foot wave turned out to be a giant volume of water that came ashore like a river and killed a bunch of people.

So its not the height of the Tsunami that matters. Its the volume of water and the force that arrives with it. Because the sea bottom can magnify this, as happened in Crescent city in 1964, they can't really predict how massive these things will be. There isn't enough data yet because every earth quake is different. How it affects the bottom of the ocean. Whether it is an upthrust earthquake, or it causes a landslide. These are just two of the things that cause Tsunamis and each creates different volumes and different forces. Then you add in the sea floor that it travels over and that can change it also.

So I repeat, its not the height of the wave, but the force and the volume of water with it. A one foot wave with enough water behind it could come ashore a long ways and wash a lot of people out to sea if they were all just standing there on the beach.
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
Not sure if these have been posted, but I found them interesting:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhwoq3bt1w1qz7lxdo1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0RYTHV9YYQ4W5Q3HQMG2&Expires=1299955470&Signature=gyZKuySxtHkhmKCD%2F5FFdrK0QXo%3D

http://nctr.pmel.noaa.gov/honshu20110311/20110311Houshu.mov

Still dry in Monterey Bay, although Santa Cruz got some movement in their harbor and we seem to be in a bit of a swell shadow.

Charles
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:14pm PT
I am hearing on local news now that Cal Tech reports a land shift, the entire Island of Japan has moved 8 feet east!!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:16pm PT
Sneaking up on Pearl Harbor?
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:17pm PT
Heard that a subsequent set of waves hit Hawaii that were twice as big as the initial set. It seems folks are dropping their guard after the first set of waves wasn't that big a deal. People have been filmed climbing Haystack Rock in Oregon following the first wave.

School has been cancelled along the coast, and folks have been driving into the Coastal Range high ground. Portland's Outdoor School program has a camp at the coast. Those kids were awakened and marched to higher ground. Parents were told that they are OK and not to attempt to pick them up. THey are getting another geology lesson and not the marine biology one that they expected today. I think I need to take a colleague (parent) out to lunch today to occupy her mind....
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:22pm PT
The devastation in Japan is terrible, and there is a lot of loss of life... But I am more worried about the nuke site out there that has lost offsight power and the Emergency Diesel Generators (EDG) didn't start, so they have no power... And that is BAD!!! They need to get those things up and running, and/or get power back to that plant, ASAP.

#1 is to keep the fuel cool.


Cooling is provided by circulating water with pumps, which require power, either electrical power, or steam. If a unit is offline, it is all electric pumps that provide that cooling. When offsite power is lost, the EDGs provide the power to safely shut down the unit(s) and provide power.

They need to get the EDGs up and running and/or restore offsite power.




The EDGs, of which there are more than one per unit for redundancy, have numerous redundant systems, so the system CANNOT fail. They are designed, as a system, to be that way, since a lot rides on it. I cannot, for the life of me, see how all of them could fail.

The EDG's used at nukes are the same types of diesel generators that are used to provide the power to drive a big passenger ships, oil tankers, or container ships, and all of its systems. They take up entire rooms... Big rooms.


At US plants, even when we take one out of service to work on it, making it unavailable, we eneter an LCO (Limited Condidtion of Operation), and have a set time to get it available, or we have to take the unit(s) offline until we get it back in an avaliable status. Also, here in the US, these are all tested often, and if they do not start in <10 seconds, it is an automatic LCO.

Note - I believe that whenever an LCO is entered, the NRC is notified.

And, if we lose off-site power, the EDGs kick in, and we immediatley shut the units down, and the EDGS continue to provide power to keep the fuel cool, until off-site power comes back.
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:23pm PT
the tsunami at Monterey. Smaller in amplitude than the tidal variation...
the tsunami at Monterey. Smaller in amplitude than the tidal variation, much higher frequency
Credit: Mike Bolte
Mark Not-circlehead

climber
Martinez, CA
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:27pm PT
Santa Cruz Harbor has significant damage, and Cresent City harbor also has significant damage:


Officials in Crescent City are reporting damage after tsunami waves began hitting the harbor this morning.
”The harbor has been destroyed,” said Crescent City Councilman Rich Enea in a phone interview at 9:45 a.m. “Thirty-five boats have been crushed and the harbor has major damage. Major damage.”
Del Norte County Sheriff Cmdr. Bill Steven said most of the docks at the harbor are gone. Additionally, a recent surge filled the entire harbor and they are expecting that some of the other waves could send water into the harbor's parking lot, Steven said.


cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:27pm PT
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
From my tsunami-proof place here in Vancouver ( thanks to Vancouver Island ) I think that the warnings issued and the ensuing reaction on the North American coastline is warranted. But.........those who choose not to observe the warnings should simply be allowed to suffer the consequences.

This way our Moosie is satisfied the public has received warning and Chaz can head to the beach with his dogs & goats & and watch & photograph the sea rise to neap tide marks and then guffaw online what a bunch of hooey it was.

Had I been in Tofino this a/m, I would have heeded the warnings, packed the Mazda and fled fer higher ground to watch anybody with dogs and donkeys been chillin' on Chesterman's waiting for those neap tide marks to be shredded by the tinky tsunami.

Similarily , but had a tsunami arrived at the shore, I would be alive to later review the footage captured by the kite camera as the surge and plunge rinsed the beaches, foreshore and penninsula free of tens of years of Caucasian culture and thousands of years of First Nations culture and more animals then just dogs and donkeys.

I'd heed the warnings. But that's just me. Lame, eh?
Chris McNamara

SuperTopo staff member
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:35pm PT


This photo does not look real

got it from this page http://stokereport.com/rant/tsunami-hits-japan-after-89-quake
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
Tsunamis are more similar to flooded rivers surging through populated areas, picking up cars, pieces of buildings, trees, mud, humans, etc. People get slammed into these objects, tangled up in them, and drown. Most of the videos surviving from Indonesia came from 3+ miles inland.
o-man

Trad climber
Paia,Maui,HI
Mar 11, 2011 - 02:55pm PT
I'm thinking about all my friends that live on the beaches here on Maui and the California and Oregon Coasts.
Many of my friends were evacuated but they are all home now.
We wave sailed 20' faces with strong winds until almost dark yesterday. I Ran out of wind and fell in about 30 meters from the launch
The current was so strong through the rocks at Kuau that it took two of my friends to help me swim my windsurf gear that last 30 meters. It was the strongest rip I have felt this season. When I got to the beach I found out that we had quite a few wild incidents and one near drowning. Mother Ocean is omnipotent!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:07pm PT
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/42030003#42030003


Jeezers....
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:15pm PT
hey there, say, aya... ohmy, i did not know this...

i will be praying for your family, too...

i will be back later, got to leave and get a boy, now... from his shcool...
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
Don't dismiss the possibility of nuclear plant breakdown too lightly
[quote]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/11/fukushima-nuclear-plant-japan-earthquake-2011_n_834585.html[/quote]
This could get very serious if you read the details.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:22pm PT
das link iz kerput....^^^
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:25pm PT
WE had a Japanese foreign exchange student with us in 2008, and My daughter went to Japan staying with a host family in 2009. Of course we can't find the e-mail addresses. We hope they are safe. I also wish my Japanese geography knowledge was better....
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:25pm PT
Mike Bolte
excellent chart
consider what happens in a tsunami at low tide:
The water comes in: OK, no big deal
Then it sucks back out. subtracting from the low tide. So in harbors, boats end up on the bottom, docklines break, docks break. Now the surge comes back in. Throwing everything around.

Rinse and repeat.
Crescent City harbor reported destroyed.
Tsunami warnings for the Russian River valley.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:51pm PT
My brother Danny is in Japan with the US sledge hockey team right now and I just found out they and he are OK !

The Japanese and American teams are soul brothers in this sport.


Credit: Jim Brennan

Credit: Jim Brennan

The Japanese refused any money proffered, "You are our guests" and they mean it.
hb81

climber
Mar 11, 2011 - 03:51pm PT
dunno if this footage was posted before:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-A0NDsPcZY

this might be the scariest thing I've ever watched...
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pic and missing my mama.
Mar 11, 2011 - 04:10pm PT
Watching that makes me sick in the stomach... People are dying in that water. Just knowing that fact alone... (Sigh..) I hope there are tons of miracles, tons of people that survived against the odds.
AFS
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Mar 11, 2011 - 04:17pm PT
I had to stop watching when I saw the wave of debris moving onto a road that had moving cars on it. I wish those people the best of luck in a dire situation.

I'm broke but I gave a few bucks to the Red Cross. I have no idea how else to help anyone there but they sure need it.

Dave
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Mar 11, 2011 - 04:55pm PT
The number and magnitude of aftershocks is INSANE. A 5 or 6 hitting roughly every 5-10 minutes.

Check it out:

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/quakes_all.html
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 11, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
Again... What has happened there is terrible, but that nuke needs to get offsite power, which is unlikely for some time... So they HAVE TO get the EDG's back up and running... No power, no way to keep the fuel cool, and that is BAD.

I've seen in news reports that Hillary Clinton said the US "delievered coolant", and have no idea what she is talking about, as coolant is water. They have water, they just need to get it circulating with pumps, that require electricity.
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Mar 11, 2011 - 05:40pm PT
Port of Brookings is severely damaged.

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2011/03/oregon_coast_tsunami_serious_damage_reports_from_brookings.html

My sister just landed a big contract in Japan and finalizing contract details for a geothermal plant. She is trying to be sympathetic - but there goes several months of work, possibly down the drain. Impossible to contact her customer....

On a positive note, my colleague's duaghter will be coming back from Outdoor School a couple hours early. All kids had a memorable camp experience.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 11, 2011 - 05:53pm PT
hey there say, jim... glad to hear this....

god bless...
Brandon-

climber
Done With Tobacco
Mar 11, 2011 - 05:56pm PT
I've seen in news reports that Hillary Clinton said the US "delievered coolant", and have no idea what she is talking about, as coolant is water.

I was wondering that too, as the material is cooled by a water jacket.
That's why plants are built on the coast or riversides.

?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 11, 2011 - 06:04pm PT
Hillary has no idea what she's talking about. No doubt they are helping out with portable gen sets and heavy lift helicopters, although the Marines will have most of those, (CH 53's).

Every Friday the af.mil site has a slide show page. Today's was a bit different.

http://www.af.mil/photos/slideshow.asp?id={E3060FE2-5527-4258-AC1D-DD3CA18F804E}

http://www.af.mil/news/video/index.asp?cid=3&sid=18935
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 11, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
hey there say, if someone can do a check on news reports, someone posted on another site, that he read that the huffington post? said some generators were now back on????


maybe someone can check out a few more news sourses, if they are good at news searches... ?


sure hope that this is true, and that good news will happen for them, as to this danger...

edit: ooops, maybe not... i just saw this, and this is 47 min. agao:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110311/ap_on_re_as/as_japan_quake_power_plant
Nohea

Trad climber
Sunny Aiea,Hi
Mar 11, 2011 - 06:32pm PT
"Sledge Hockey"? What a riot!

Life is amazing; how people’s (our) priorities jump like the rainbowed flat bellied lizards of S. Africa. All mynah stuff here but dang Japan got hit. As I read and see the destruction, mixed with my prayers for those has been thoughts of my time in the Great Land of Rising Sun. The town and beach names in the news recall fond and carefree days. Incredible experiences with a nation filled with so many amazing people.

Once while waiting for the AM train out of Tokyo, I slept against a wall. When I woke someone had left me a chilled drink which was just what I needed. Set it down right next to me, still cold!

A small but incredibly wonderful thing to do for someone who has been up most the night: story #23,524 of 524,819 of my future essay titled “129 weeks on Honshu”

iipatsu!
labrat

Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
Mar 11, 2011 - 06:36pm PT
News about the nuclear plant is grim and seems to be getting worse quickly.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 11, 2011 - 06:44pm PT
i was on my boat in the harbor when the news hit last night

had to decide to run for my house on high ground, or try to save the boat

i cruised out of the harbor at first light and got a few miles off shore

the waters were calmer than usual, except for huge swells that came rolling through

the local harbors have been hard hit, docks torn up, boats battered and sunk

the dredge broke loose cxrossways and blocked the harbor entrance

the winds have come up and the sea is pretty rough now

i am now anchored outside of Santa Cruz with a number of other big boats; and thankful to still have a boat

a few minutes ago the normally calm harbor still has a 10 mph surge moving pieces of docks and boats and lots of debris around in the harbor

i would be helping with salvage efforts, but right now am avoiding become salvage
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Mar 11, 2011 - 06:47pm PT
dang- good Luck Tom! You seem to have made the right choice..
Brandon-

climber
Done With Tobacco
Mar 11, 2011 - 07:08pm PT
Jeez, Crag.

Leave your agendas out of a terrible occasion, please.

Plus, you're talking apples and oranges man.
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Mar 11, 2011 - 07:26pm PT
In Depoe Bay, Terry Owings, the city superintendent of Depoe Bay, said repeated surges of water have destroyed the first of five docks closest to the mouth of the bay. Large timbers have been trashing about in the water.

"Those are like battering rams," he said.

Owings estimates the damage in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

A private company has been scooping up timbers and other debris to prevent them from damaging boats, which have avoided damage so far by moving to docks farther back.

The surges started at about 9:30 a.m. or 10 a.m., with the worst hitting sometime around noon or 1 p.m. Owings estimates the water is surging every 20 minutes.

Credit goes to Regon Live

"It takes 10 minutes to go out and then it just turns around and it comes back in,” said Owings, who is worried about unseen destruction if the surges continue into the night.

In Coos Bay: Near Coos Bay, surges of water rushed in and out of the port, simulating a high tide and low tide cycle every 15 minutes, said Coast Guard Boatswain's Mate First Class Walter Morey.

"It did that like 12 times in three hours," he said. "It's pretty impressive to see this happen right in front of your eyes."

The water traveled at a fast clip as well, about three times the typical speed, he said.

Pilings separated from the docks, forcing a few boats to break loose of their mooring lines, he said. One dock broke completely away from the pier, with a sailboat attached to it. Coast Guard crews who assisted had to cut the mooring lines before the dock dragged the boat under the water.
Credit: Seamstress
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Mar 11, 2011 - 07:37pm PT
Elcapinyoazz... HOLY SHIZZLE!

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/quakes_all.html


Edit: Aftershock forecasts go something like this ... for a M9, you expect, aftershock-wise, 1 M8, 10 M7, 100 M6, 1000M5 ...

landcruiserbob

Trad climber
BIG ISLAND or Vail ; just following the sun.......
Mar 11, 2011 - 07:46pm PT
Hit my hotel here on the Kohala coast. Destroyed some beach buildings & sea walls. Good news it deposited 100 tons of fresh sand to the beach :-).

Evacuated 700 hotel guest at 11:00 pm.

We had more than 10 surges of rougly 3-4 feet. Quite an amazing sight to see water stack up like that. Lots of head presure in the pacific ocean.



Aloha & be well

rg
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 11, 2011 - 08:01pm PT
Elcapinyoazz... HOLY SHIZZLE!

That link shows 6.X activity tthe day before too, which is interesting and a bit unusual. Look at the day BEFORE the biggie hit. Is that normal for Japan?

It is surely not normal for this side of 'the Ring of Fire'.

I fear we are next. Too much plate slippage lately and that's a big slip in Japan. Our plate alomost HAS to go next.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Mar 11, 2011 - 08:09pm PT
bluering...

There was a magnitude 7.2 2 days ago, and then aftershocks from that EQ started - before that, nothing.

It looks very likely that the M7.2 triggered the Big One, which is very interesting.

In short, no, this is not normal for Japan.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 11, 2011 - 08:15pm PT
Thanks, Val. I took an basic Geology class in college for some science credit. That was when our Loma Prieta quake hit. Many people didn't show up for class the day after, but I was eager to hear from the Prof. He was pretty troubled at the magnitude...of a 7.6!

Imagine an 8.9! Holy!!!!

Hard to fathom. The 7.6 was kinda fun in silly retrospect, mostly because I was okay. Kinda selfish, I know, because people died. But there would be no happy hindsight of quake of Japan's magnitude. It boggles the mind as to what that would feel like.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Mar 11, 2011 - 08:24pm PT
Imagine this... Loma Prieta today is considered to "only" be a M 6.9, not a 7.6.

Given how earthquake scaled are calibrated, a M8.9 is 1000x (not 100x) more powerful than a M6.9 (each step up is 32x, so 32x32 =1024). The accelerations, however, are approximately 100x greater (over a much larger area). How does that relate to physics?

EQ magnitude = (rupture length) x (rupture width) x (average displacement) x (strength coefficient of fault).

Strength of shaking -> size of EQ, distance to EQ, soil/site conditions, + directivity (e.g. is the rupture heading toward you... like a Doppler effect)

SO! The shaking in Loma Prieta (in the Bay Area) and in Japan (on land) is of similar strength, because the Japan EQ is so far away. Of course, Japan also has a tsunami, which looks to be causing most of the damage, while Loma Prieta (and future local EQs) have no such hazard. And, the shaking in Japan occurs over a much, much larger area.

The Loma Prieta shakemap is here:


A photo of the Japanese shakemap and a prediction for the Hayward fault is here:

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 11, 2011 - 08:27pm PT
Cool stuff, Val! Thanks.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 11, 2011 - 08:31pm PT

Grant our brothers and sisters in Japan, O Lord, a steady hand and watchful eye, that no more shall be hurt.

Thou gavest life, I pray no more shall perish or be injured by the earthquake.
Shelter and help those, dear Lord, who are in need from the evils of nuclear reactor poisons and other calamity.

And let the beauty of your Earth return to Japan and lead all of your children back into safety.
Amen.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 11, 2011 - 08:33pm PT
Amen, CC.
T2

climber
Cardiff by the sea
Mar 11, 2011 - 08:42pm PT
My heart weeps for Japan. All problems and issues in my life seem so trivial.
Oxymoron

Big Wall climber
total Disarray
Mar 11, 2011 - 10:03pm PT
The Earth is Alive. Remember that. We live or die at HER discretion.
That's fair. Or at least I think it is.
john hansen

climber
Mar 11, 2011 - 10:15pm PT
Nothing at all compared to Japan, the stuff that happened over there is terrible..
Minor flooding in Kona Hawaii.
Hawaii probably had at least 40 million in damage..



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91Wh0_yNJhc&feature=related
tinker b

climber
the commonwealth
Mar 11, 2011 - 10:40pm PT
hey, where is tacos? i can't imagine what it would feel like to be in that without being able to be mobile on my own. my prayers go out to her and all involved.

edit: okay i found this on the other thread
Tacos is living in a special facility for handicapped people in Hiroshima.
Jan
so now i will look up where that is... many thoughts go out to her...
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Mar 11, 2011 - 10:55pm PT
Remarkably good set of 47 images from Boston.com:

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/03/massive_earthquake_hits_japan.html
tinker b

climber
the commonwealth
Mar 11, 2011 - 10:57pm PT
okay using the map jan included, it looks like tacos isn't inthe worst spot, but it doesn't look awesome.
good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts good thoughts ...
valygrl

climber
Boulder, CO
Mar 11, 2011 - 11:38pm PT
Tacos is OK, she is in (correction) Okayama, she and her family were not affected.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 11, 2011 - 11:58pm PT
hey there say, tinker b, and valygrrl... thanks for the note on "tacos"

nice to see a prayer, here too...
thanks for sharing...
socialclimber

Trad climber
CA
Mar 12, 2011 - 12:17am PT
This might have already been posted, but it shows a lot of despair and at the same time a very strong community.

http://framework.latimes.com/2011/03/11/earthquake-and-tsunami-hits-japan/#/0

Charles
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Mar 12, 2011 - 01:28am PT
where is JDF when you need him! I would have called Jeff batten today. Damn.
sorry for the loss.
krahmes

Social climber
Stumptown
Mar 12, 2011 - 04:13am PT
Oh no.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-12/explosion-destroys-walls-of-japan-reactor-building-nhk-reports.html
Morgan McN

Big Wall climber
Tokyo, JP
Mar 12, 2011 - 05:10am PT
I live in Tokyo, and was at work when the quake struck yesterday afternoon.
The ground shook pretty bad, and continued to roll for a good 20 -30 seconds.
We're still getting significant aftershocks 24+ hours later.
I was in Marin during Loma Prieta and this seemed to shake harder and longer.
I work in a 50-story building, but was fortunate enough to be in the basement eating lunch.

The two major issues tracking in local media right now are the cooling of nuclear reactors (or lack thereof) in Fukushima, and the total devastation in Miyagi and Iwate prefectures from the subsequent tsunami.

Tokyo is highly reliant on trains and the system basically shut down. With the earthquake taking place in the middle of a workday, a massive number of people had to either walk up to 4 or 5 hours to get home or sleep on the floors at workplaces.

Today a lot has returned to normal, but Miyagi/Iwate area are truly devastated.
Please send all your prayers there way.

Chris,
While the tsunami's wave apparently did reach up to 10 meters, I'm pretty sure that pic is 'shopped.
Those people look like they're smiling!
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 12, 2011 - 05:42am PT
hey there say.... oh my!!!!!! thank the lord, i just heard from ONE of my friends in chiba area...

noriko... she just emailed and she is okay...
she says it is so awful sad, her lovely area nearby where she used to go visit... it looks like hell...
her house was not quite hurt so bad though...


:(


but she is alive!!! and i am so happy for her...
oh my...

she was never so scared as she was that during that quake...

i hope i will hear good news from the other two...

god bless and more prayers for everyone...

*to the last poster, i forgot your name, in my hurry (very sorry):
thank you for sharing your tyoko story of what happened there, for you...
i am glad you are alive...
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 12, 2011 - 06:03am PT
hey there say, all.... hard and sad situation as to this note that i have read twice now:

In another disturbing development that could substantially raise the death toll, Kyodo news agency said rail operators lost contact with four trains running on coastal lines on Friday and still had not found them by Saturday afternoon

four trains are missing? and all the folks that were on it... :(

nite, all, i got to call some folks, and go sleep...
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pic and missing my mama.
Mar 12, 2011 - 06:19am PT


Neebee,

There were a few trains that unloaded before the stations so... Lots of people might be alright. Think positive and pray.
hb81

climber
Mar 12, 2011 - 07:16am PT
Sh#t is really starting to hit the fan.
There has been an explosion at Fukushima 1 nuclear power plant and it looks like there is a meltdown in progress.


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 12, 2011 - 07:40am PT
Pacific basin wave height visualization (what's with that odd finger headed for NorCal / Oregon...? )

corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 12, 2011 - 09:54am PT
Here's a true horror story that'll make your hair stand on end

Three Mile Island:
two hours and 20 minutes to wreck a core

A small team headed off a nuclear disaster.
Four of them look back and tell what happened.

http://www.memagazine.org/supparch/peoct04/threemile/threemile.html


Everyone knows what birthday candles look like. Just apply that image to
nuclear fuel rods that are not being cooled enough inside a core and you got
it.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 12, 2011 - 10:18am PT
Very interesting observation healyje. Dude, check this out!

Here is a model of the major faults off the shore of the west coast



I draw your attention to the San Andreas fault at its northern end. Near the Eureka it curves out into the ocean and hits what is called the Mendocino Triple Junction - the San Andreas turns west and morphs into the Mendocino Fracture Zone, ok? At that same junction is the Gorda Ridge.

With me?

The Mendocino Fracture Zone is a major ocean floor feature of the northern Pacific. Its a transverse fault, not unlike the San Andreas itself. Its a stress relief mechanism to allow two different parts of the Pacific crustal block to advance somewhat independently of one another.

In order for relatively stiff and brittle plates (made of rocks, after all) to be able to 'slide' around the surface of a globe, there has to be some cracks somewhere.

Here's a simplified model of how that happens



So if you look at that top diagram again you will also see the Murray Fracture Zone and the Molakai Fracture Zone.

The ocean block between Mendocino Fracture and Murray is the remnants of the western side of the old Franciscan Subduction zone, the part that was on the leftern side of the spreading center that was subducted beneath California. As such, the lines of these fracture zones outline a truly ancient slab of oceanic rock that goes all the way from the dead spreading center to Japan. This feature was 100 plus million years in the making!

So I took a bunch of photos of a globular model of the earth and in particular the Pacific Basin. So I have this:


with the Hawaiian Islands sort of center frame.

And the coast of North America here


So if I put some names to features its easier to visualize


OK now check this out, here's the wave pattern model you posted:


You can clearly see the Hawaiian island chain there in the middle and align the continental parts like Japan and California.

Right about where the curious finger, as you put it, that reached out to swat NorCal, right about where it breaks off from the main pattern?

That's roughly where the Hawaiian Seamounts do the abrupt turn into the Emperor Seamounts. I draw your attention in particular to the Hess Rise and the mid-Pacific mountains



So now for my idea.....

Why does it seem that Northern California north of Mendocino coast line along with the coasts of Oregon and Washington seem to take the brunt of Japanese tsunamis? I mean that curious finger of yours IS curious!

A picture is worth a thousand words:


Wave pattern transmits from the rupture in the subduction zone. A main part of the energy is funneled, as it were, along the southern side of the Hawaiian seamounts. Your wave propagation model shows this in spades.

And your curious finger? Wave energy impacts the Emperor Seamounts and he Hess Rise and is reflected north of the Mendocino Fracture Zone and then, like a 4000 mile long ruler, directs that energy straight at the north coast. It also serves as a reflection barrier to keep the energy from spreading out and south.

So we get this


Boom, straight into Crescent City.

Whaddaya think?

DMT
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 12, 2011 - 10:51am PT
Reversing the arrows, I can also see now why the earthquake in Chile caused small tsunami waves to splash up in Okinawa, even though we're north of the equator.Fascinating. Thanks!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 12, 2011 - 11:02am PT
Interesting analysis, Dingus. I think you have something there.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 12, 2011 - 11:03am PT
We're all still in shock over here.
Everyone going about very quietly and somberly
with broken hearts
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 12, 2011 - 11:31am PT
I hope they can conatin those reactors.



There is some discussion about radiation exposure at my favorite MilBlog;
http://rantburg.com/poparticle.php?ID=317998&D=2011-03-12&SO=&HC=3

and here;
http://theintelhub.com/2011/03/12/29810/
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Mar 12, 2011 - 11:56am PT
with all of the advanced tehcnology these days, it makes one wonder why the Nuke plants were built directly on the coast of an active fualt.
WBraun

climber
Mar 12, 2011 - 12:08pm PT
This whole event was so painful to watch unfold.

You just knew what was happening the the people in the path of that tsunami.

It hurts to see that ....
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 12, 2011 - 12:12pm PT
Just another small example of the power of this thing.


http://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/quake-moves-u-s-aircraft-carrier-from-yokosuka-pier-1.137338
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 12, 2011 - 12:32pm PT
It is NOT going to 'meltdown'... Much of the words used in the news are incorrect, misleading, and downright wrong:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2473955#2473955

(Note - Unfortunately, our resident 'end of times' RNJ has decided to reply.)


Don't get me wrong... It's a big frick'n problem they have on their hands, but there is WAY too much misinformation out there.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 12, 2011 - 12:36pm PT
Japan scrambles to contain nuclear threat
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4767307
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/12/3162554.htm

Radiation leaks from Japan's quake-hit nuclear plant
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4767391
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/12/us-japan-quake-idUSTRE72A0SS20110312

Explosion Heard at Nuclear Plant Around 0630 GMT; Several People Injured – Media
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4767113
http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/77065.html

Video of the Explosion at Japan's No.1 Fukushima Reactor.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x562186
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvC4WQrQwTs

Radiation Level Around Nuclear Power Plant Did NOT Rise After Explosion
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x562321
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4mfcHkjsBA

Al-Jazeera on the explosion at nuclear plant in Japan – interesting
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x562348
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q6C8US20jI


Of all these reports, the Al-Jazeera seems the most honest and the most detailed.

Time to go buy Potassium Iodine (KI) for Family and friends. All families should have this on hand anyway, for emergencies, terrorism etc.

From the CDC:
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/ki.asp


This is all sooooo sad.


Prepare, pray, and help.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 12, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
Don't get me wrong... It's a big frick'n problem they have on their hands, but there is WAY too much misinformation out there.

I agree. It's very unlikely to pose a problem to the West Coast of North America, but Japan may have an issue. Probably already does.

From what I understand, even if it melts down, they're built to contain themselves for the most part. Workers would have to approach it to seal it off though.

But I'm no expert on this...and yeah, don't count on the MSM to do any better.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 12, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
Time to go buy Potassium Iodine (KI) for Family and friends. All families should have this on hand anyway, for emergencies, terrorism etc.
If you live near that nuke, then yes, if you don't, then you are just buying into the "fear".
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 12, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
If you live near that nuke, then yes, if you don't, then you are just buying into the "fear".

I kind of agree, but it doesn't hurt to have some on hand. It's relatively cheap.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 12, 2011 - 12:44pm PT
I agree. It's very unlikely to pose a problem to the West Coast of North America, but Japan may have an issue. Probably already does.

From what I understand, even if it melts down, they're built to contain themselves for the most part. Workers would have to approach it to seal it off though.
Even if it degrades to a "3 Mile Island" type event, which is HIGHLY unlikely, it's not that bad ecologically or for people as many think. Nobody from the public suffered any ill effects with TMI, got a huge 'uptake' or whole body dose, and the land wasn't contaminated. People still live around that plant, who's units are STILL up and running, save the one that actually did suffer a partial melt-down.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 12, 2011 - 12:51pm PT
rrrRaddam is correct. This is a light water reactor NOT a flammable graphite moderated pile of crap like Chernobil.

It's a serious problem, but one that will be self limiting and nothing at all like Chernobil.

From looking at the shock wave that propagated from the explosion, it wasn't a steam explosion like you'd have with a pressure vessel breach. It was a hydrogen explosion in the building.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 12, 2011 - 12:52pm PT
Of all these reports, the Al-Jazeera seems the most honest and the most detailed.
Ummm... Fuku is a BWR, and I no of no BWR desiogn that has the control rods inserted from the top, but are instead pushed up thru the bottom, so the video is incorrect. And, the primary containment is the vessel, which has not been breached (as far as I understand), so the guy at the end is giving misleading info.
Brandon-

climber
Done With Tobacco
Mar 12, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
But we should all panic anyway, right?

It hurts to hear these stories coming out on the news.

I'm not a god man, but I'm sending out major vibes into the collective consciousness.

The hits just seem to keep on coming.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 12, 2011 - 12:56pm PT
From looking at the shock wave that propagated from the explosion, it wasn't a steam explosion like you'd have with a pressure vessel breach. It was a hydrogen explosion in the building.
Reports are that the explosion was caused by a pump, and had that explosion had no effect on the integrity of the vessel. I'm not sure how a pump can produce that type of explosion, but again, I don't have all the info so I'm not going to speculate, other than it is possible that an electric pump can ignite hydrogen.


And, for a historical perspective...
...NOT a flammable graphite moderated pile of crap like Chernobil.
That type was the first reactor, in a squash court, in Chicago, under the direction of Enrico Fermi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Pile-1
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Mar 12, 2011 - 01:03pm PT
This nuclear plant situation doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
They have back up generators for each reactor.
That doesn't seem to be working.
So why can't they just truck/fly in another generator?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 12, 2011 - 01:24pm PT
We're talking generators the size of a large house here.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 12, 2011 - 01:29pm PT
That was my question too.I know the U.S. military in Japan has huge mobile generators and heavy lift helicopters to get them there. I really hope that this won't turn out to be a case of the Japanese risking lives in a vain attempt to save face as they did after the Kobe earthquake. Hopefully the current government which is younger and less conservative won't make that mistake again.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 12, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
A possible scenario - The Fukoshima #1 explosion might have been caused by the emergency venting of hydrogen gas from the Pressurizer in that reactors primary cooling system.

The hydrogen was vented into the containment buildings air, where a spark from a relay or a motor ignited it and caused the containment building to explode outward into the environment.

That so much hydrogen gas was in the primary coolant loop can only mean that a large part of the core has been exposed to steam, and quickly overheated, auto ignited, burned white hot in the steam producing Zirconium oxide and the irksome hydrogen gas.

Needless to say some of the fuel was also released into the coolant as the
Zircaloy fuel rods burned open.

And some of the fuel came out, carried along with the hydrogen gas as it was vented from the primary coolant loop and got released with the explosion.

So the building is gone but the #1 reactor remains and whatever is left of the core will be cooled over the next several days and weeks.

Of course this is just a guess and probably way off.



Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 12, 2011 - 01:40pm PT
"Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance (The 7 Ps)"


You don't know how bad this is going to get. Everyone should be prepared for emergencies, including having in their emergency preparedness kits, available Potassium Iodide (KI). It only makes sense.

If and when massive leaks occur, it will go right into the jet stream and that comes right to the US. Any exposure to non-natural radiation (above and beyond natural background radiation) that you might injest, breath, or drink, is dangerous. There is no safe level. Once inside your body alpha, beta, and gamma radiation from radioactive decay occurs. You have to rid your body of it the best you can, ie KI.

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/ki.asp


From the City of San Clemente, very good website concerning KI, since they are so close to San Onofre Nuclear Power Plant.

http://san-clemente.org/sc/standard.aspx?pageid=586

http://www.oes.ca.gov/Operational/OESHome.nsf/0/ABC0D5826BF7038888256CC40068933B?OpenDocument


Anbex
Website:
http://www.anbex.com

Phone: 1-866-463-6754 (toll free)
Brand name: IOSAT™ tablets


Recip
Website:
http://www.thyrosafe.com

Phone: 1-866-849-7672 (toll free)
Brand name: ThyroSafe™ tablets



Emergency Preparedness Center:

http://www.areyouprepared.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=90


*Note: EPC are all all out of stock of all amounts.



http://www.nukepills.com/

*Note: nukepills ia also indicating they are out of IOSAT pills.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 12, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
A possible scenario - The Fukoshima #1 explosion might have been caused by the emergency venting of hydrogen gas from the Pressurizer in that reactors primary cooling system.

There is NO presserizer in a BWR... That is in a PWR (Pressurized Water Reactor).

They can still get hydrogen in the reactor, and this can be vented. In fact, not sure of the numbers, but, the zircalloy material the fuel rods are made of (zirc tubes with uranial fuel pellets in them) react with the water at around 1,400 F, causing it to oxidize rapidly, releasing hydrogen gas, and causing the tubes to rapidly disintegrate. Once this happens, to any degree, that fission product barrier is breached, releasing radioisotopes. It sounds like this may have happened, but AGAIN, it is speculation without more accurate information.

This is a bad type of 'fuel damage', that if left unchecked, can leave the fuel pellets in the bottom of the vessel.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 12, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
oiodine
klimmer... I work at a nuke, and live less than 3 miles from it. We do have KI, as do many within a 10 mile radius of the plant, and anybody in that zone can get it for free.

If you think you have to worry about an uptake or any whole body dose from the plant in Japan, you clearly do NOT understand what is happening, or even the worst case scenerio for what is happening there. Do you know what your uptake or dose was from Chernobyl? As in that, a significant portion of the entire core was ejected.

Any exposure to non-natural radiation (above and beyond natural background radiation) that you might injest, breath, or drink, is dangerous. There is no safe level. Once inside your body alpha, beta, and gamma radiation from radioactive decay occurs. You have to rid your body of it the best you can, ie KI.
Oh, bruther...

1. Radiation is radiation, natural or not. I get less dose per year working at a nuke than most who live in New England, or people who fly 2-3 times per week, and they get it from 'natural' sources. Heck, even most isotopes of iodine are, in fact, radioactive, as well as most isotopes of potassium... When I used to 'body count' in to plants, I would eat a bunch of bananas, so I'd get a potassium spike, joking that I wanted to leave with more radiation that I came with, when I body counted out.

2. KI doesn't 'rid' your body of radiation... It fills your throid, which can only hold so much, with KI, so there is no room for more energetic radioisotopes of iodine (I.e., radioiodine), allowing your body to rid it through normal means, in the event of an uptake. And KI only protects people from radioiodine, that's it. Not cesium, or any other fission product.

3. Not all radioisotopes emit alpha, beta, and gamma... In fact, rarely will any emmit all three of those. In fact, radioiodine (that KI protects against) is primarily a beta emitter, and that is what causes the damage. Its halflife is just over 8 days, which is why KI works.

You clearly do not know what you are talking about.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 12, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
Thanks for the beta, Adam.
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Mar 12, 2011 - 02:45pm PT
About six days after reactor scram, the decay heat will have diminished enough that... the core will be cool enough so there isn't any real danger of fuel melt. But cooling must continue...

I haven't worked in a commercial power reactor but was employed two years at 250 megawatt test reactor at the INEL after college.

After the fuel rods have cooled sufficiently, they are removed from the core and submerged in water for several months as they continue to give off heat. The water cools the residual heat output and also absorbs the decay neutrons.

Most reactors store the spent fuel rods on site. The rods are submerged in deep pools of water and glow with blue Cherenkov radiation from the neutron emissions.

Cherenkov radiation
Cherenkov radiation
Credit: Jennie
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 12, 2011 - 02:53pm PT
rrrADAM -thankyou. Some news reports that the use of seawater is a
last resort desperation move because all else has failed to cool the core.
Would not this flush some fuel out to sea from any burned open rods?


An understandable description of the differences between BWR and PWR

http://www.euronuclear.org/e-news/e-news-18/HP-BWR.htm
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 12, 2011 - 03:11pm PT
Everything Jennie said is correct... And one interesting 'science geek' note about Cherenkov radiation.

It is due to charges particles traveling fatser than the speed of light in that medium, in this case with nuclear fuel, water. As it slows down to its velocity in that meterial through interactions with the medium, the excess energy is radiated in the frequency of blue light. Remember, all materials have their own speed of light, which is what leads to refraction, and c is the speed of light in a vacuum, and it is that that cannot be exceeded.



corniss... The sea water is being pumped IN to the plant, but not OUT. They are keeping it contained within the plant. But putting sea water into the reactor spells the end of that reactor, as normal coolant in a BWR is demin water.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Mar 12, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
Not to diminish the horrible incident, but i have learned a TON on this thread, thanks to all!
Gene

climber
Mar 12, 2011 - 03:17pm PT
It is due to charges particles traveling fatser than the speed of light in that medium, in this case with nuclear fuel, water.


Help me out here. Thanks
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 12, 2011 - 03:17pm PT
Yeah, Jennie, ans especially Adam's insights are helpful. You guys/gals should be on the news.

What I find weird is why the US (or other gov'ts) don't explain this the same way. They just say, no problem, but people are inherently distrusting of that rhetoric.

Give us the facts, we can handle it! Explain!
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 12, 2011 - 03:20pm PT
Gene...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation

Read first, then if you have questions, ask. Fair enough?
Gene

climber
Mar 12, 2011 - 03:23pm PT
Very fair.

While relativity holds that the speed of light in a vacuum is a universal constant (c), the speed at which light propagates in a material may be significantly less than c. For example, the speed of the propagation of light in water is only 0.75c. Matter can be accelerated beyond this speed during nuclear reactions and in particle accelerators. Cherenkov radiation results when a charged particle, most commonly an electron, travels through a dielectric (electrically polarizable) medium with a speed greater than that at which light would otherwise propagate in the same medium.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation

Thanks for the link. I got it.

g
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 12, 2011 - 03:24pm PT
Gene...

It's analogous to a sonic boom, when something travels fater than the speed of sound, as materials also have veolocities for sound, even air, which changes with altitude and temperature, as that effects its density.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 12, 2011 - 03:26pm PT
Any exposure to non-natural radiation (above and beyond natural background radiation) that you might ingest, breath, or drink, is dangerous. There is no safe level. Once inside your body alpha, beta, and gamma radiation from radioactive decay occurs. You have to rid your body of it the best you can, ie KI.


Oh, bruther...

1. Radiation is radiation, natural or not. I get less dose per year working at a nuke than most who live in New England, or people who fly 2-3 times per week, and they get it from 'natural' sources. Heck, even most isotopes of iodine are, in fact, radioactive. When I used to 'body count' in to plants, I would eat a bunch of bananas, so I'd get a potassium spike, joking that I wanted to leave with more radiation that I came with, when I body counted out.

2. KI doesn't 'rid' your body of radiation... It fills your throid, which can only hold so much, with KI, so there is no room for more energetic radioisotopes of iodine, allowing your body to rid it through normal means, in the event of an uptake. And KI only protects people from radioiodine, that's it. Not cesium, or any other fission product.

3. Not all radioisotopes emit alpha, beta, and gamma... In fact, rarely will any emmit all three of those. In fact, radioiodine (that KI protects against) is primarily a beta emitter, and that is what causes the damage. Its halflife is just over 8 days, which is why KI works.

You clearly do not know what you are talking about.



Typical Nuke employee responses --

My dad has worked in the Nuclear industry for the last 30 years. Hanford and now Savanaah River.

I have gone through many tours over the years. Taken the physics classes. Taken workshops from General Atomic etc.

In a perfect safe world (safe from seismic activity, or terrorism events, which of course doesn't exist), nuclear fission is a wonderful source of energy. Actually, Integral Fast Reactor (IFR) technology would be the better way to go (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_Fast_Reactor ) with passive safety and a technology that can resuse all stored spent fuel forms and then ends with a much safer form of radiative waste, with a much shorter half-life and far easier and safer storage. Hey but what do I know? Apparently I don't know what I'm talking about. Only you do. A nuclear industry insider.

The fact is, this entire event is a really, really bad PR for fission nuclear power. You can't get much worse PR. This is exactly why we shouldn't go this way. There are things you can not control, such as Mother Nature. You wouldn't be biased would you?

All emergency back-up systems for energy to continue to be supplied to the cooling process failed, and Japan is a very technologically savvy country.

How many have died of exposure to Solar, Wind, Geothermal, etc., clean renewable energy resources? We have the technology and the know-how but certain industries have us by the throat and they do not want to let go. Their gravy train is just far too valuable, to hell with the environment, and they don't want to see their profits to plummet.

The fact is you cannot do anything regarding natural radiation, except limit your exposure to these sources as much as possible, ie distance from the source is the safest form of protection and the best behavior to practice. With non-natural radiation sources (ie man induced releases) that are airborne contamination, ground/soil contamination, or water contamination, that have the potential to be accidentally inhaled, eaten, or accidentally drank, then yes you have to do what you have to do, ie KI. Yes, I know how KI works, the CDC website discusses it very well. Yes, I know it fills the thyroid and limits the uptake within this organ only. Yes, I know it only works on radioactive iodine. But it is one of the things we can do.

Never said all radioactive isotopes emitted alpha, beta, and gamma. Depends on the radioactive isotope.

The point is, when any are inside your body it can do significant damage. There is no safe level for radioactive isotopes inside the body emitting radiation through alpha, beta, and gamma decay. All the experts outside of the nuclear industry say so. Outside the body and at a distance, then much less that it can do.

It is better to be prepared before an accident, than after the fact. All families should be prepared and have KI as part of there home emergency kits. Do you disagree?



Yes, learn to love radiation. It's only natural for goodness sakes! (sarcasm)

I don't sleep at night with radioactive sources under my pillow at night for good reason. I handle them with care, only limited exposure, and at a distance. I don't handle them directly, but only wrapped in plastic. I always wash my hands thoroughly afterwards. My sources for experiments and demostration purposes, are always locked away and stored safely away from all students and staff when not in use.


A great resource, the GA poster:


Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pic and missing my mama.
Mar 12, 2011 - 03:31pm PT
Jan,
I am so sorry! My heart goes out to all of you.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 12, 2011 - 03:31pm PT

1. Radiation is radiation, natural or not. I get less dose per year working at a nuke than most who live in New England, or people who fly 2-3 times per week, and they get it from 'natural' sources. Heck, even most isotopes of iodine are, in fact, radioactive, as well as most isotopes of potassium... When I used to 'body count' in to plants, I would eat a bunch of bananas, so I'd get a potassium spike, joking that I wanted to leave with more radiation that I came with, when I body counted out.

2. KI doesn't 'rid' your body of radiation... It fills your throid, which can only hold so much, with KI, so there is no room for more energetic radioisotopes of iodine (I.e., radioiodine), allowing your body to rid it through normal means, in the event of an uptake. And KI only protects people from radioiodine, that's it. Not cesium, or any other fission product.

3. Not all radioisotopes emit alpha, beta, and gamma... In fact, rarely will any emmit all three of those. In fact, radioiodine (that KI protects against) is primarily a beta emitter, and that is what causes the damage. Its halflife is just over 8 days, which is why KI works.


You know, at the taco we have a traditional method of communicating this much more succinctly.

It starts with, "Yer gonna,..."
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 12, 2011 - 03:43pm PT
"Typical nuke employee response"? That's it? Obviously you don't disagree with anything I said, so my not say, thanx for the info?

My reponse was unemotional facts, NOT speculation and fear. It is unbiased, as it is in regards to the facts.


And, yes I know of breeder reactors, it is nothing new. Personally, I think we should reprocess fuel, like they do elsewhere instead of WASTING so much still in the fuel. But that's another story, that has to do with politics and fear, not $$$.


I also agree on renewable sources of fuel, but the fact is, people want cheap reliable electricity... In order for us to "switch" to greener stuff, people's electricty bills would tripple. Unfortunately, over 50% of our electricity comes from coal. Over 50%, because it's cheap. Just removing cheap coal would make people's bills go up enormously. How many people to you think are willing to pay 3X as much for their electricity?

You know, in France, about 80% of their electricity comes from nuclear.

And, before you want to say nuclear is not 'natural':
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_nuclear_fission_reactor



Oh...
Never said all radioactive isotopes emitted alpha, beta, and gamma. Depends on the radioactive isotope.
It's called radioisotope.


Or...
All emergency back-up systems for energy to continue to be supplied to the cooling process failed, and Japan is a very technologically savvy country.
I believe the unit involved is American designed and made (GE / Bechtel or EBASCO)... Back in the late 60's, and came on line in the early 70's.

It's apparent that you spent some time researching topics in the last hour enough to compose a reply, hoping to look like you already knew all this stuff, but it is still apparent that you do not really know what you are talking about.




But, I digress, as all of that is another topic altogether.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 12, 2011 - 04:00pm PT
It's apparent that you spent some time researching topics in the last hour enough to compose a reply, hoping to look like you already knew all this stuff, but it is still apparent that you do not really know what you are talking about.


Yea, I just learned all this stuff just now. (Eyes rolling.)

I teach the topic. We hit this topic both in physics and earth science.

Yes, I know about the natural fission reaction that has been discovered to have occured in the lithosphere.

And yes, we have an enormous Fussion Nuclear Reactor safely located 93 million miles away, (as it should be), that is our primary source of energy in our corner of the universe -- The Sun.

Now we can safely harness the light EM energy that it provides. Enough EM energy from the Sun hits the Earth to supply all our enrgy needs with excess, for the next 5 billion years. We just have to step-up and do it.

Even General Atomic (GA) is more honest than you.





rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 12, 2011 - 04:08pm PT
I'm not gonna argue with you, even your the image in your last reply confirms what I have said regarding dose, and sources of radiation... Which is relevant to this thread, regarding what's happeing at Fuku.

How 'bout starting another thread if you wish to discuss our energy woes, and big corporate greed conspiring and making it worse.


Let's keep this one on topic... The events in Japan, and the facts about it.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 12, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
I am disappointed, even dismayed, that you are a science teacher, given that I am mainly a self educated high-school drop out... Yet the disparity between our understanding of science is pretty apparent.


Yes, it certainly is very apparent.

Your understanding and attitude is directly nuclear industry biased. Sad.



The conversation is totally relevant to what is happening in Japan.

People are waking up (again) to the fact that nuclear fission nuclear power plants aren't what they are supposed to be and what they promised -- safe.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Mar 12, 2011 - 04:27pm PT
rrrAdam,

don't waste a joule on him.

TFPU.

.....

EDIT to ADD

I see the "science teacher" just posted.

I haven't followed the whole thread regarding the nuclear stuff but rrrADAM, I'd bet my bottom dollar this "science teacher" doesn't know any more about nuclear dynamics than he knows about electrical stuff.

Which I got to discover last summer. What a waste of time he is. What a waste of time to respond to his posts.

All he is is cut n paste, there's no common sense underlying it to pull it all together. He shouldn't be an educator, let alone a science teacher, when he's so full of unchecked bullsh#t. IMO.

radam, post on.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 12, 2011 - 04:33pm PT
Lets get back to the more interesting 'yer gonna die' stuff.
ie the fuel bundles

http://www.friendsofbruce.ca/candubundle.htm

Once a bundle is "spent" (after 12-18 months in the reactor), it is highly
radioactive. The 1978 "Ontario Royal Commission on Electric Power
Planning" (aka: "Porter Commission") stated, "The extreme lethality of a
freshly removed spent fuel bundle is such that a (unprotected) person
standing within a metre of it would die within an hour."

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 12, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
Klimmer, let's try keep this Japan-centic. Lets not divert to the politics of nuke energy.

Please.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 12, 2011 - 04:44pm PT
The two are now one.

This is about Japan and the help they need, and this is also about a Nuclear Industry dissaster caused from a massive 8.9 magnitude earthquake. And it will have fallout effects . . .





http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/tnks/Nni20110312D12JFF03.htm

Sunday, March 13, 2011

Meltdown Caused Nuke Plant Explosion: Safety Body

TOKYO (Nikkei)--The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) said Saturday afternoon the explosion at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant could only have been caused by a meltdown of the reactor core.

The same day, Tokyo Electric Power Co. (9501), which runs the plant, began to flood the damaged reactor with seawater to cool it down, resorting to measures that could rust the reactor and force the utility to scrap it.

Cesium and iodine, by-products of nuclear fission, were detected around the plant, which would make the explosion the worst accident in the roughly 50-year history of Japanese nuclear power generation.

An explosion was heard near the plant's No. 1 reactor about 3:30 p.m. and plumes of white smoke went up 10 minutes later. The ceiling of the building housing the reactor collapsed, according to information obtained by Fukushima prefectural authorities.

At a news conference Saturday night, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano discounted the possibility of a significant leak of radioactive material from the accident. "The walls of the building containing the reactor were destroyed, meaning that the metal container encasing the reactor did not explode," Edano said.

The amount of radiation detected inside the plant after 4:00 p.m. slightly exceeded the dose people can safely receive in a year, according to information obtained by the Fukushima prefectural government.

The No. 1 reactor shut down automatically soon after a massive earthquake hit the area Friday, but its emergency core cooling system failed to cool the reactor's core sufficiently.

NISA is affiliated with the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry.

(The Nikkei March 13 edition)




HFCS,

The more you post the more you prove you are clue-less.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 12, 2011 - 05:24pm PT
I hope Jan's incorrect on the cultural assessment. there could be other technical factors at work.

Most all US equipment is set up for our voltage standards. We are not talking about something you just plug in the wall here. I would imagine that pumps of this size are medium voltage. In the US that would be 4160V

Most portable gen sets, even the big ones top out at 480V 60hz. On top of that the Japanese system is the same as the European system so the operating voltages for the motors may be something different like say 5600V 50hz. Not something you can plug and play. You also don't just tie two wires together at those voltages. Splicing medium voltage lines is a time consuming meticulous procedure and if it has to be done in a "Hot" zone the exposure of each person doing the splicing will have to be very limited. Lots of "jumpers" would be required. (a person that works in a hot area for a very limited time on a one time basis)

The US military does have some incredible resources for moving this kind of equipment around though. When Katrina hit our son was on a C-5 crew on the way back from Iraq to Maron Spain. They were diverted mid flight to Ramstien Germany and picked up three of the largest dewatering pumps ever made and flew non stop with three in flight refuelings to New Orleans.

Everybody got the Humanitarian Achievement medal.

If there's something anywhere in the world that would help, they can get it there.

Travis AFB, where the Pacific heavy lift capability is based, went on full alert within an hour or so of the earthquake.


Edit,

Kilmer you are in close competition with Crawly for ST's village idiot.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Mar 12, 2011 - 05:29pm PT
Anyone who wants to use scare tactics with regards to Nukes needs to start researching all of the devastating petrochemical accidents. There is no comparison to the loss of life and destruction. However, because each of fills our tank with it, we somehow feel better about it....

http://www.csb.gov/investigations/investigations.aspx?Type=2&F_All=y


As someone said earlier, the EDG's (emergency disel generators for those may be somewhere between 3-5 MW in size. That means huge. People need to remember that this quake was of such magnitide that it may have exceeded the Design Basis Event for the reactors.
Brandon-

climber
Done With Tobacco
Mar 12, 2011 - 05:30pm PT
I'm astounded by how you, you all know who you are, can hijack a thread that is based in sympathy, and turn it into some pointless energy fight.

Grow up and show a little humanity, you f*#king as#@&%es.

:)
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 12, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
Is wasting a joule on someone like casting pearls before swine?

Also, isn't it spelt "nucular"?
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Mar 12, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
Sorry, this is a very sad thing, and yet it illustrates that all of us who may live near natural disaster prone areas rally should think about it and plan for it more than we all do.

Thoughts and Prayers for the people of Japan.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 12, 2011 - 05:44pm PT
The nuke plants do grab the headlines, but meanwhile there's a town of 17,000 where 10,000 have disappeared, four missing trains and a missing cruse ship.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Mar 12, 2011 - 05:52pm PT
it illustrates that all of us who may live near natural disaster prone areas rally should think about it

I was in the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake. My partner and I just started our workout in a lifting gym - Gold's Gym in Mountain View - when it struck a little after 5.00p. Watching some of the i-reporter video from Japan reminded me of this once-in-a-lifetime experience - for example how you could hardly stand. (Forever etched in my mind is the image of my workout partner Dan croutching on all fours out in the parking lot with me wondering if it was ever going to stop.) But some of these i-reporter videos also reminded me of a lesson I later required myself to remember regarding getting caught up in any serious earthquake - which I've reflected on many times over the years, decades now - so if I were ever in one that serious again maybe I'd do better. "Knowing better is doing better." Right? Now that I think about it, that lesson kinda has some carry over to rockclimbing, too. Anyways, that lesson was/is not to blindly rush out of the building like I did that evening - even if there is a mad rush of bodybuilders behind you. Instead, be mindful. Even more mindful, that is, and take pause at the wall before exiting - Heads Up! - to make sure nothings falling off the high building as you exit. Exit only after you look up to make sure it is clear. Now you might think this is obvious or instinctive but I was disappointed in myself later - when monday morning quarterbacking the whole entire experience 100 times - that I was so set on exiting amidst all the loud bruhaha I didn't look up the wall before exiting the double door emergency exit to make sure bricks or glass or signage whatever from upper stories weren't falling down to take my head off. Luckily nothing did though, that day I just happened to be running with fate, not against her, thank goodness.

.....

EDIT to ADD

Brandon,

Relax. Loosen up. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. Bottom line: In any public discourse like this sooner or later what comes around is a wingnut packing bullsh#t. Is it better NOT to call the bullshit when you see it or read it? No. So there it is - the reason for impugning bullshit if not the bullshitter when you see it. Impugning it is justifiable, it is warranted. Sure it is a dirty job. But somebody has to do it. Else the bullshit might stand. Not good.

If it's too much to deal with, go elsewhere.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 12, 2011 - 06:01pm PT
Once a bundle is "spent" (after 12-18 months in the reactor), it is highly
radioactive. The 1978 "Ontario Royal Commission on Electric Power
Planning" (aka: "Porter Commission") stated, "The extreme lethality of a
freshly removed spent fuel bundle is such that a (unprotected) person
standing within a metre of it would die within an hour."
They would likely die within seconds. That said, before they go into the reactor, the dose in negligent, in that we do a hands on inspection of them, actually touching the bundles, and get zero dose from them.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Mar 12, 2011 - 06:07pm PT
They would likely die within seconds.

What would be the most immediate cause, or causes, of this? Esp if it were seconds to an hour, do you know?
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 12, 2011 - 06:07pm PT
TOKYO (Nikkei)--The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) said Saturday afternoon the explosion at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant could only have been caused by a meltdown of the reactor core.
Again, this is incorrect... It has already been reported that the explosion was caused by a pump, and that the reactor vessel was not involved in this explosion.

Even this, from the same article you posted shows that:
"The walls of the building containing the reactor were destroyed, meaning that the metal container encasing the reactor did not explode,"


And, AGAIN, a meltdown is next to impossible unless the reactor is critical, and with all rods in, it is not. 'All rods in' has been verified to be the case.
Brandon-

climber
Done With Tobacco
Mar 12, 2011 - 06:08pm PT
HFCS, I understand the desire for a scientific discussion of nuclear energy and it's nuances.

This isn't the place. Please start a separate thread to discuss it.

I for one, am grieving for those who lost their lives.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Mar 12, 2011 - 06:09pm PT
Brandon, I understand.

Start one for THAT then if you would like.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 12, 2011 - 06:11pm PT
HFC... From what I understand, being exposed to that amount of energy coming from the bundle would ionize most of your nervous system in an instant.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Mar 12, 2011 - 06:13pm PT
People need to remember that this quake was of such magnitide that it may have exceeded the Design Basis Event for the reactors.

I am not anti-nuclear, but a statement like this only further highlights significant problems with all existing light water designs and should give China serious pause in its plans. The current designs being built are very evolutionary from previous generations and what's needed is a cut from the past to wholly new designs capable of shutting down automatically even in situations like this. Probably that's going to require using arrays of mini-nukes instead of larger, more structurally vulnerable units like these.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 12, 2011 - 06:15pm PT
Brandon,

Relax. Loosen up. If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. Bottom line: In any public discourse like this sooner or later what comes around is a wingnut packing bullsh#t. Is it better not to call the bullshit when you see it or read it? No. So there it is. The reason for impugning bullshit if not the bullshitter when you see it. It's justifiable. Sure, it is a dirty job but somebody has to do it. Else the bullshit might stand. Not good.

If it's too much to deal with, go elsewhere.


This is a goos point. EVERYBODY here is sympathethic to the Japanese people. But do realize that we Califonians are probably next. It would be foolish to not look at this and prepare. We are used to quakes just like the Japs are. But this quake is an eye-opener.

We have to learn. And we need to help. Fortunately, the Japs are pretty well resourced like us. And we have Naval assets on the way to help out.

That wall of water was the killer. So many people underestimate the power of the ocean. That is what killed so many people. It IS sad. But there was nothing they could do. It was a natural disaster. Doesn't make it less sorrowful or deadly, it just was.

It sucks. And it will happen to us...sooner than later.
Brandon-

climber
Done With Tobacco
Mar 12, 2011 - 06:17pm PT
Blue, I don't disagree. I just think it should be in a separate thread, which I have started.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 12, 2011 - 06:28pm PT
That wall of water was the killer.

There were a couple of things that us left coasters could take away from this that I saw in the first video and stills from the event.

The first vid I saw was of the buildings in Tokyo swaying violently. The thing that struck me was not that the buildings stood, most in LA would probably structurally withstand that kind of shake. The interesting thing was the lack of debris in the street. None of the fascia fell off the buildings. That's something I don't think would happen here. While our building codes have addressed the overall structural integrity of the structures, I'm a bit worried that the details on the outer skin may be driven more by western architectural sensibilities than practicality for living on the rim of fire.

There's a reason modern Japanese buildings are aesthetically plain. We may do well to pay attention.

The other was a still of down town Sendai right after. The main drag was filled ten feet high with the ground up debris from the tsunami, but the buildings on either side were in eerily pristine shape.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Mar 12, 2011 - 06:33pm PT
Start one for THAT then if you would like.

Sorry for the confusion. I meant start a new thread for the grieving if you need to.

Here I appreciate rAdam's input. TGT's too. Etc. Anything (that's not bs, that is) relating to the Japanese earthquake.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 12, 2011 - 06:37pm PT
Wendell, the tsunami went through farming areas first apparently, picking up scattered debris along the way.

It would be way worse here...And we should think about that. Especially L.A.

The Sf Bay Area is buffered pretty well. Santa Cruz, Half Moon Bay, and Pacifica localities would get decimated. But the inner Bay would prolly fair pretty well. (I Hope).

L.A. has no Mtns between it an the coast, no? That could be rough.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Mar 12, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
Speaking of buffered...

It was interesting to note how the Sea of Japan and Korea, being on the West Side of the islands, were spared any tsunami effects.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 12, 2011 - 06:43pm PT

TOKYO (Nikkei)--The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) said Saturday afternoon the explosion at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant could only have been caused by a meltdown of the reactor core.

Again, this is incorrect... It has already been reported that the explosion was caused by a pump, and that the reactor vessel was not involved in this explosion.

Even this, from the same article you posted shows that:

"The walls of the building containing the reactor were destroyed, meaning that the metal container encasing the reactor did not explode,"


And, AGAIN, a meltdown is next to impossible unless the reactor is critical, and with all rods in, it is not. 'All rods in' has been verified to be the case.



rrradam,

You aren't argueing with me. This is from The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) as reported by the Japanese, Nikkei, in Tokyo.

This was reported Saturday afternoon in Japan. This is more current info.

They are comparing an earlier report to what they know now.

Even with rods all the way in, without the primary cooling, and the redundant back-ups for energy to continue the cooling process, it continues to heat-up. You must know that.

I think I'll listen to NISA, rather than you, thank you.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 12, 2011 - 06:43pm PT
I don't think there's any geological record of major Tsunami events in the LA basin like there is in the North West. Any big seismic event here is probably going to be shore based.

That being said, there is a big low plain from the harbor area to about the century freeway.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 12, 2011 - 07:02pm PT
Japan on the Eastern edge of the Eurasian plate, and with the Pacific plate subducting beneath, they clearly experience many more Earthquakes and as a result are far more prepared than we are, even here in SoCal.


They have a highly advanced warning system as demonstrated here . . .


Early Warning System and the Japan Earthquake
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x562442

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQVPfQu50yY


Amazing.

We should too. We have a lot to learn from them.


All the relief effort that we are doing with our military, this is a great and noble use. This is what it should be used for. It's great to see all the ships headed their way to help. This is a great use of our tax dollars. This is what we have a military for, to help people, and our defense, not to kill them.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 12, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
Once again, you can not seperate what is happening in Japan after the earthquake, and what is now happening with the Nuclear Power plants. They are now one and the same . . .

PhD Michio Kaku gets it . . .

Physicist Dr. Michio Kaku Discussing the Japanese Nuclear Plant Dangers after the Earthquake
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x562463

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfJQzxK4nU
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 12, 2011 - 07:18pm PT
Brandon-

I'm not here to discuss or defend nuclear energy... What is happening over there, earthquake, tsunami, and especially at the nuke is really fvcking bad!

I'm merely here to try to clear up a lot of misconceptions and misinformation that is out there, and being spread around the net and in the news.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 12, 2011 - 07:27pm PT
Core of quake-damaged reactor partially melts - 170,000 being evacuated from area

Source: MSNBC

Core of quake-damaged reactor partially melts
Seawater being poured into reactor to cool it; 170,000 being evacuated from area

The core of a nuclear reactor damaged by Friday’s massive earthquake has partially melted, Japan’s nuclear safety agency said Saturday, and the company that runs the plant is pouring seawater into the reactor in an attempt to cool it and prevent it from going critical.

Early Sunday, Japan's nuclear safety agency reported an emergency at a second reactor in the same complex.

The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said that the cooling system malfunctioned at Unit 3 of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant No. 1. The agency said it was informed of the emergency by Tokyo Electric Co., or TEPCO, the utility that runs the plant.

No further details of the troubles at Unit 3 were immediately available.

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42044156/ns/world_news-asia-pacific/?GT1=43001



Pull your head out of the sand rrrADAM.

Nice edit on your part.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 12, 2011 - 07:34pm PT
This certainly is an economic catastrophe for Tokyo Power, but other than perhaps a few Luis Slotins at the plant it will have no effect on human, plant or animal life outside the fence.


Go find us some extraterrestrials Klimmer.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 12, 2011 - 07:38pm PT
This certainly is an economic catastrophe for Tokyo Power, but other than perhaps a few Luis Slotins at the plant it will have no effect on human, plant or animal life outside the fence.


Go find us some extraterrestrials Klimmer.


Nuclear radioactive fallout and contamination doesn't stop at fences.

You seem to think this is winding down and there is no more danger of anything happening worse.

May I suggest you watch the video with PhD Michio Kaku, regarding the Nuclear Power plants.


I'm not going to quote scripture, but I would repeat: prepare, pray, and please help others as much as we can.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 12, 2011 - 07:41pm PT
...it will have no effect on human, plant or animal life outside the fence.

I wouldn't go that far... If they don't get it under control, it can get a lot worse, and they can release quite abit... Not globally, or even regionally, but they could 'crap up' a 10 mile or so radius for some time.

It isn't getting better, it is getting worse.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 12, 2011 - 07:49pm PT
That being said, there is a big low plain from the harbor area to about the century freeway.

That is what I mean. L.A. could suffer very similar consequeces, dude. Thet Ghey Area has a buffer zone that protects us, you guys would get rocked!!!
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 12, 2011 - 07:57pm PT
Klimmer, you were on the grassy knoll, weren't you?



Cragman,

Must I suffer such ad hominem attacks from you? Really?


If you must know, it was GOPer George Bush Senior's CIA buds.

They hated JFK because he was a good hearted honest Catholic man who loved his country, and who wanted to do great things for the nation, and bring an end to the Vietnam war.

He was everything they aren't.




But that is a whole other topic . . .
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 12, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
hey there say, anastasia, thanks so much for sharing the positive strength... i would have posted a thank-you-hug, but i was falling asleep by then.... *we keep meeting up, on "support" type threads, :))


also, say!!!!

i GOT A PHONE CALL, while i was still near asleep:

my OTHER TWO FRIENDS have connacted us by email--the gal on the phone told me... i am so very very grateful, they are still alive to be a blessing to their families and/or loved ones... though, sadly, i know that thousands are not, we must accept joy, always, in finding life!! :) >:D<


next:
dear jan, oh yes, i see that.... my friends email, (have not seen the others' two, yet) but her heart was tender, sad, and commasionate, she was heavy laden for you country and countrymen, and not only for her self... a very calmer mourning, than some folks we have seen in other episodes of life... very humbled, she was...


lastly, to the newer folks, you are so kind to worry about tread drift, but supertopo is a "shifting current" as there are so many different hearts and spirits that flow about the river, here, so perhaps this will help:

say, all you supertopo folks, you know what, dear folks:conversation, as to mourning and sadness, always will shift to the "where, whys, and what to do's", it is a very human thing... it really is, and it is good to understand this... :)

those of us that know this, we purely and sweetly understand that any tread-drift here is not meant to disrespect those that died (as to tech stuff that you all share here)... feelings here, still encommpasses the pain and sorrow for those that have died (many here have faced the death of loved ones, and some, in very tragic ways--though they may hide this fact, to the newer folks)...
they all know, it could have been our loved ones--as we all know, as we are all fragile... :( we really DO need each other...

it is the just that the fact that the tech-words stay here "so powerful", and "bleak looking" or "textboook seemeing" that they seen to push-aside emotions as to humans, that is why it affects some folks so harshly, is all... *but we can still come in and share this, as well, (all for one, and one for all, like the ol' innocent childhood threemusketeer motto) :))


having worked with folks in conversation: thoughts and feelings always take rabbit trails... it leads to trying to help solve problems, and even let out "hidden feelings" to bring relief-of-burden, as to the subject of those that died...
and in the midst of it, there is always someone THERE to keep a reminder to the ones in pain, that may have to back out of the "word flow" for a bit... and we all draw them back in....

you have are doing what is a very human thing, dear folks:
now, the harder human thing, is:
sharing peace, in the midst of all of it...
(some climbers are more animated than others, right?) :)
climbing styles in life, vary, though the basics need followed...


the ol' supertopo is getting better and better at it,
and understanding this, and i commend you all....

now, to end my "mommy's heart", to you all:
you all care, caring just pops up in different ways, when folks are
suddenly faced with powerful things beyond our control....

god bless to you all!!!
and carry on in climber unity...

me, i got to run and see my two friends, how they are doing, i had to sleep all day, after keeping watch, and i will have joy
now, upon seeing that they have a chance at more life...

though, we must really pray about this nuclear stuff...

stuff so dangerous that i DO NOT understand (and would not ever try to learn about, unless you had graciously all shared it here, where it seemed to fit in, as the "time is happening" now,

happening sadly, to folks in japan, folks that need our love and prayers)...


hugs to jan, and all those in japan...
keep letting us know how you are...


*sorry for the MOMMY PREACHING HERE.... ;)
BUT i been doing it all my life, as i like to see folks run on a smooth
keel and help each other as a family... :)
QITNL

climber
Mar 12, 2011 - 08:01pm PT
I'd like to show my respect for the men and women putting their lives on the line to control the radiation leak. They are full aware that their bravery may result in a painful death.

As many of us live within the potential fallout zone, we owe them our sincere thanks.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 12, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
Neebee, Liz, we apprcieate your prayers, we really do.

Thank you. And may God bless those Japanese folk. They need some help!

We're in God's hands. May he have mercy upon us,,,,,


I'm sad.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 12, 2011 - 08:11pm PT
I'd like to show my respect for the men and women putting their lives on the line to control the radiation leak. They are full aware that their bravery may result in a painful death.

The point of the Luis Slotin reference.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 12, 2011 - 08:15pm PT


Japanese authorities rush to save lives, avert nuclear crisis
By the CNN Wire Staff
March 12, 2011 7:34 p.m. EST
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/12/japan.quake/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

Shirakawa, Japan (CNN) -- A meltdown may be occurring at one of the reactors at a damaged nuclear power plant in northeast Japan, a government official said Sunday morning, sparking fears of a widespread release of radioactive material at a time when rescuers are frantically scrambling to find survivors from the country's strongest-ever earthquake.

Toshihiro Bannai, an official with Japan's nuclear and industrial safety agency, said officials have injected sea water and boron into the reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi facility in an effort to cool its nuclear fuel. He expressed confidence that efforts to contain the crisis would be successful.




Edit:
This seems to be from earlier today. Seems the most current news is worse.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4767922



I hope so (in reference to containing the crisis).
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 12, 2011 - 08:37pm PT
Dr. F,

I doubt you would watch it but it is worth the watch just to find out the answer to your very question . . .


DVD: The Case for Faith, by Lee Strobel.


It answers the question why GOD would allow evil and bad things to happen and why doesn't he always intercede to save mankind. He does, but not the way we think he should. It isn't an easy thing to answer. It is a very deep theological question that gives many a very hard time to come to grips with. You have to learn who Lucifer is and why he hates GOD so. But rest assured Lucifer's days are numbered.


Now back to what is happening in Japan and what we can do to help . . .
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Mar 12, 2011 - 08:38pm PT
re: demonization of nature
re: angelization of God

When cultures angelize God (He saved us!) and demonize nature (for sending us earthquakes, etc) is it all THAT surprising when these same cultures trash nature (e.g., abuse our National Parks or cut funding to protect them)?
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 12, 2011 - 08:42pm PT
Dr. F, you are a FAIL...

try to keep your crap contained. You are not helping here. You should go!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Mar 12, 2011 - 08:47pm PT
re: learning from this tragedy

In the future, people who live on coasts in earthquake tsunami country should have robust "body capsules" made of metal or kevlar to climb into. Similar to a safe room or basement for those areas which suffer hurricanes or tornadoes.

Of course, (1) they would float, (2) they would be opened from the inside; (3) they would be mountable in 30 seconds.

What a glaring oversight in hindsight. Kinda like not having a basement to turn to in the Midwest. Or not having raingear in your pigs on el cap in November.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 12, 2011 - 08:49pm PT
BASE104, I noticed that too!.. And I sit in the belly of the beast.

This is why I tell people to prepare. We're next!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 12, 2011 - 08:51pm PT
In the future, people who live on coasts in earthquake tsunami country should have robust "body capsules" made of metal or kevlar to climb into.

Made in chiner or here?
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 12, 2011 - 08:58pm PT
Well the production will involve plastic resin and odors. CARB and EPA certainly won't let you manufacture them here.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 12, 2011 - 09:05pm PT
An important article with very interesting videos at the bottom of the article . . . 3 reactors have lost the ability to cool the video says.


Radiation risk from nuclear plant seen as worrisome, not critical . . .
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42047458/ns/world_news-asiapacific/




Core of quake-damaged reactor partially melts
Seawater poured in to cool reactor; 170,000 evacuated; venting starts at second reactor
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42044156/ns/world_news-asiapacific/
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 12, 2011 - 09:24pm PT
Klimmer - We can only imagine the heroic efforts the Fukoshima workers
are going through. Dosimeter badge's showing big exposures. Knowing
that the job MUST get done because Japan and the world are counting on them.
Its a nightmare.

QITNL

climber
Mar 12, 2011 - 09:39pm PT
Some of you men should stick your dicks back in your pants. Or find another room for your circle jerk.

It doesn't belong here. It's gross. Knock it off.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 12, 2011 - 09:46pm PT
We can only imagine the heroic efforts the Fukoshima workers
are going through. Dosimeter badge's showing big exposures. Knowing
that the job MUST get done because Japan and the world are counting on them.
Its a nightmare.


Sooo true.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 12, 2011 - 11:23pm PT

CNN

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/12/japan-earthquake-live-blog-death-toll-rises-amid-widespread-destruction/

[9:54 p.m. ET, 11:54 a.m. Tokyo] A meltdown may have occurred at at least one nuclear power reactor in Japan, the country's chief cabinet secretary, Yukio Edano, said Sunday.

He also said that authorities are concerned over the possibility of another meltdown at a second reactor.

"We do believe that there is a possibility that meltdown has occurred. It is inside the reactor. We can't see. However, we are assuming that a meltdown has occurred," he said of the No. 1 reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear facility. "And with reactor No. 3, we are also assuming that the possibility of a meltdown as we carry out measures."

Edano's comments confirm an earlier report from an official with Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, who said, "we see the possibility of a meltdown."

A meltdown is a catastrophic failure of the reactor core, with a potential for widespread radiation release. However, Toshihiro Bannai, director of the agency's international affairs office, expressed confidence that efforts to control the crisis would be successful.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 12, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
North Hemisphere Jetstream Map:
http://squall.sfsu.edu/gif/jetstream_norhem_00.gif


Japanese WW2 Fire Balloons and how they got to the USA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_balloon



Something to think about. Massive radiative cloud release (if things get a lot worse) into the jetstream could come our way. It is a possibility.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 12, 2011 - 11:42pm PT
The worst case has probably already happened.

Tokyo Electric ends up with the worlds largest concrete filled billion dollar paperweights and a few employees die in heroic efforts.

Best case,

Klimmer gets so hysterical he breaks his keyboard and goes silent.


Forgotten in all this are the potentially tens of thousands that have perished from acute dihydrogen monoxide toxicity.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 13, 2011 - 01:09am PT
today in santa cruz harbor, continuing tsunami surges, 31 known sunk boats, unknown location for most, some probably swept out to sea, some still surging back and forth in the channel, many docks and boats just gone

another busy day tomorrow


Credit: TomCochrane

Credit: TomCochrane

Credit: TomCochrane

Credit: TomCochrane

Credit: TomCochrane

Credit: TomCochrane

Credit: TomCochrane
LuckyPink

climber
the last bivy
Mar 13, 2011 - 01:13am PT
I just saw on CNN that the quake appears to have moved the entire island of Japan 8 ft and has shifted the axis of the earth.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 13, 2011 - 01:26am PT
hey there say, lucky pink thanks for sharing this... i dont have tv news...

also, say, tom, lighter news, i know, but:
thanks for the santa cruz picks... i needed to know about my brother walt's boat, too, but i think someone already found out for him...

thanks again..
:)
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 13, 2011 - 01:29am PT
hey there say, tom... i must have missed something? do you work there at the harbor... ?

do you have a picture from dock "m"...

thanks for any share you have...
:)


TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 13, 2011 - 01:37am PT
the USCG has stepped in and taken over from harbor mgmt and hired a big san francisco contractor who is shouldering aside local contractors

they have locked down the harbor and won't let anyone sail in or out or even go see their boat

they are planning to stack up the sunk boats and take them to a land fill and charge each owner $10,000 for not hiring a private contractor to take care of the salvage operation

if the boat owner manages to hire a local contractor before 8:00 tomorrow morning, the cost will be a fraction of that

i do have some access as a friend of a local salvage company, so if you tell me a slip number or boat name or CF number, i'll try to check it out

Edit: the surge swept up the channel and literally tossed the boats up in the air and then dropped them. some boats were left laying on their sides in the mud, and then the surge came back in and swamped them. a lot of boats are still there, but damaged. Some of the docks are just not there any more and pieces of docks are rushing around on the tsunami swells that just keep going all day. the divers keep having to jump out of the water as the swells become too strong

Edit: I did walk along M dock this afternoon, and it and the boats seemed pretty much ok. There is one sunk boat on the end tie for P dock. The worst damage seemed to be in the upper harbor where the energy of the tsunami ran our of room. I talked to one boat owner who watched as his boat was swept from the upper harbor all the way to the harbor entrance and back again, and survived with very little damage,.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 13, 2011 - 01:44am PT
The Fukoshima #1 BWR reactor type is fairly common around the world. Here's
a story by some reporters who got a rare tour inside the Vermont Yankee Nuclear Power Plant -( similar to Fukoshima)

Water used in this reactor -365,000 gallons per minute. Says something about the power of the atom.

http://www.consumerenergyreport.com/2010/07/01/a-tour-inside-vermont-yankee-nuclear-power-plant/






neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 13, 2011 - 01:50am PT
hey there say, tom... i am calling my brother walt, now... say, who shall i say you are, as to "harbor info" etc...

do you work there, usually, then...?
thanks...
:)
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 13, 2011 - 01:52am PT
One obvious question that has occurred to me in retrospect, is why the nuclear reactors were built on the Pacific side of Japan where the tectonic plates meet and the major earthquakes and tsunamis happen?

I can only think that it was for economy and convenience as the main north south highway goes there along with the bullet train. In retrospect this was a false saving.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 13, 2011 - 01:55am PT
i'm a boat owner and friend of the Vessel Assist people

is 'Walt' aka 'Ice Man' the master diver? if so we are already friends
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 13, 2011 - 01:55am PT
hey there say, jan... oh my... i kind of had wondered that a bit, too, but then since i dont live there like you do, i just let it slide as to my "personal curiosty as to such things"...

thanks for the share...
i wonder even more, now, what perhaps the reasons were, as the japanese have been so very careful to prepare in other respects...

could it be that some other kind of storm, or bad weather come in from the west, that are yearly, or wintery, persistant??? i have no clue, as to their weather, etc...

thanks again...
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 13, 2011 - 01:56am PT
hey there tom... .neat... thanks so very much...
>:D<

i am calling him...
:)
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 13, 2011 - 01:57am PT
hey there say, .... awww, and i know you are a supertopo climber poster, too....

:))


say, i sure hope YOUR boat was okay...
forgive me for not even thinking to ask you yet...
you seemed to sound okay, so i just assumed you were... :(
very sorry for being so rude... :)

god blesss...
:)
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 13, 2011 - 01:58am PT
The reactor in trouble was built in 1970 just when their economy and need for electricity really heated up, so my guess is that they went for the fastest cheapest solution to more electrical power.

I've always been disappointed that the Japanese did not pioneer in using ocean power. Of all countries they have the most to benefit from harnessing the waves and tides.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 13, 2011 - 03:02am PT
And now even worse news from the New York Times.


TOKYO — Japanese officials struggled on Sunday to contain a widening nuclear crisis in the aftermath of a devastating earthquake and tsunami, saying they presumed that partial meltdowns had occurred at two crippled reactors and that they were facing serious cooling problems at three more.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 13, 2011 - 03:05am PT
my boat is fine

i cruised out to sea early friday morning and spent the night out there listening to all the crazy radio traffic in the harbor, and then went back to dock in moss landing this morning

Edit:

http://enews.earthlink.net/article/us?guid=20110312/6722075d-4307-4818-8b33-ba0030c1a641

Tsunami surge deals blow to struggling Calif. town
JEFF BARNARD
From Associated Press
March 12, 2011 8:49 PM EST

CRESCENT CITY, Calif. (AP) — Fishermen who had escaped to sea before the tsunami hit this struggling coastal town landed small loads of crab on Saturday, while crews surveyed damage and a family combed the beach for any sign of a man who was swept away a day ago as he photographed the waves.

"This harbor is the lifeblood of our community and the soul of our community," said Del Norte County Sheriff Dean Wilson as he looked across what was left of the Crescent City boat basin, which last year saw landings of crab and fish worth $12.5 million. "The fishing industry is the identity and soul of this community, besides tourism."

The region has never recovered from the loss of the timber industry in the 1980s and 1990s, and downturns in salmon fishing, said Wilson, who fished on his father's boats as a young man.

"It's going to be hard to recover here," he said.

A series of powerful surges generated by the devastating earthquake in Japan arrived about 7:30 a.m. Friday and pounded the harbor through the day and night. Eight boats were believed sunk and dozens of others damaged; an unmanned sailboat sucked out of the harbor ran aground on the coast.

About 20 miles south, the family of a 25-year-old Oregon man combed the beach looking for signs of him. Authorities say Dustin Weber was swept away as he and two friends photographed the waves.

"He just didn't respect the ocean and didn't understand the tsunami," his father, Jon Weber, said. "The (first surge) hit about 7:30. It was the second wave that hit at 9:30 that got him."

Back north in Crescent City, crews geared up for the enormous task of assessing and fixing the damage to the port, where a sheen of oil floated in the basin. Seagulls feasted on mussels exposed by upended docks. About 80 percent of the docks that once sheltered 140 boats were gone.

"Our port is struggling," said Kevin Wilson, manager of Nor-Cal Seafood Inc. "Since the last tsunami in '06, they secured the funds to fix it, and this took away all the stuff they were gonna build off."

Crab fisherman Lee Wilson returned to find his boat, the Gold Coast, mostly unscathed. It has survived its second tsunami — the first, a 1964 swarm that killed 11 in the city, had pushed it up on the rocks of the break wall.

Despite the severity of the damage that has drawn curious onlookers to survey the port even in the rain, Kevin Wilson has returned to business. He bought crab from fishermen who decided to work after leaving in the early Friday darkness to escape the waves.

"We've been down here in hurricane-force winds before, and we'll keep working," he said.

For the crews tasked with repairs, it would be a longer wait. Divers could not go into the water and workboats could not maneuver until the tsunami surges end, said Alexia Retallack, a spokeswoman for the California Department of Fish and Game. Local officials were keeping a close eye on Japan through the weekend, in case aftershocks cause another tidal surge.

About 350 miles south in Santa Cruz, the only other California harbor hard-hit by the waves, the commercial fishing industry was minimally affected. Most of the 850 boats were pleasure boats, including 60 that are lived in full-time.

Cranes hauled up sunken boats — some possibly salvageable, others snapped into pieces — while crews in life jackets and rubber boots waded near the shore, yanking chunks of broken docks, floating hunks of foam and other trash from the water.

Port Director Lisa Ekers said the tsunami caused at least $17.1 million in damage to the harbor, and another $4 million to private boats. Gov. Jerry Brown issued an emergency declaration for the harbor, which can expedite funding for repairs.

One dock, with close to 40 boats, was ripped out during the surges. So far, they found 18 vessels "sitting on the bottom," creating an environmental risk from leaking fuel, Ekers said.

A dock-load of high-end rowing boats and kayaks also was washed away, and dozens more boats that smashed into each other or were hit by debris, would need major repairs.

Across the ocean in Hawaii, the waves damaged at least 60 homes, sank up to 15 boats, and battered hundreds of vessels. But authorities said they were thankful there was no loss of life or injuries reported; residents had hours to prepare or evacuate as the tsunami rushed from Japan at 500 mph.

Santa Cruz Deputy Police Chief Steve Clark said that in addition to evacuating residents in low-lying areas, his officers had to do crowd control as townspeople gathered to watch the swells.

"A tsunami watch doesn't mean go watch the tsunami," he said.

On a boat ride through the harbor, Assistant Harbormaster Larry White pointed to buckled piers, snapped masts and hulls of flipped boats bobbing in the brown, pungent water, which rose and fell in usually strong swells generated in Japan.

He shook his head, remembering the moment when the tsunami first sucked the water out of the harbor out to sea — a sudden 9-foot drop.

"It was like the earth opening up," he said. "It was incredible."
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Mar 13, 2011 - 03:45am PT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Sendai_earthquake_and_tsunami

The 2011 Sendai earthquake and tsunami (東北地方太平洋沖地震, Tōhoku Chihō Taiheiyō-oki Jishin[6]?, literally "Tōhoku region Pacific Ocean offshore earthquake") was a 9.0MW[7][2] megathrust earthquake off the coast of Japan that occurred at 05:46 UTC (14:46 local time) on 11 March 2011.[8][9] The epicenter was reported to be 130 kilometers (81 mi) off the east coast of the Oshika Peninsula, Tōhoku, with the hypocenter at a depth of 24.4 kilometers (15.2 mi).[10][11]

The earthquake triggered tsunami warnings and evacuations from Japan's Pacific coast and at least 20 countries, including the entire Pacific coast of North America and South America.[12][13][14] The earthquake created tsunami waves of up to 10 meters (33 ft) that struck Japan, with smaller waves in many other countries.[9] In Japan, the waves are reported to have travelled up to 10 kilometers (6 mi) inland.[15]

There have been more than 637 reported deaths and at least 10,000[3][4] people reported missing in six prefectures.[16] The earthquake caused extensive damage in Japan, including heavy damage to roads and railways as well as fires in many areas, and a dam collapse. Around 4.4 million households in northeastern Japan were left without electricity and 1.4 million without water.[17] Many electrical generators were taken down, and at least two nuclear reactors partially[18] melted down,[19][18] which prompted evacuations of the affected areas,[20] and a state of emergency was established. The Fukushima I Nuclear Power Plant experienced an explosion almost 24 hours after the initial earthquake; however, while the blast caused the collapse of the concrete outer containment building, it was reported that the integrity of the inner core-containment vessel was not compromised.[21][22][17] Residents within a 20-kilometer (12 mi) radius of the Fukushima I Nuclear Power Plant and a 10-kilometer (6.2 mi) radius of the Fukushima II Nuclear Power Plant were evacuated.

The estimates of the Sendai earthquake's magnitude made it the most powerful earthquake to hit Japan and one of the five most powerful earthquakes in the world overall since modern record-keeping began.[23][24][25] It is thought to have been the largest earthquake within the boundaries of the North American and Pacific tectonic plates in 1,200 years.[26]
sempervirens

climber
Mar 13, 2011 - 03:49am PT
Tom,
Why is it that going out to sea is safe while the tsunami is approaching? That is interesting.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 13, 2011 - 03:52am PT

The Japanese police have now estimated at least 10,000 dead in Miyagi prefecture alone.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 13, 2011 - 05:14am PT
hey there say, tom... nope, walt is not him, however, walter is a bit "famous" hee hee... :)

he is walter chapman of "CHAPMAN DESIGN" los altos...

he has done many homes in those areas...

*and he is brother to ol' chappy (from yosemite climbing days), too, haha... :)
as i am .... :)


say, now that you reposted it, i DO remember you saying you were going to take your boat out before the tsunami hit...

glad to see it all worked out...
:)


*say, my brother's friend said that friday night the water seemed quiet and still in the harbor, so he is curious if there are swells suddenly, or if they just did not show up in the main harbor?

me, i didn't know what to say, so i am curious, too... :)
i told him, perhaps you meant the churning under the surface??
which was perhaps an ooops...


ALSO:
thank you all for posting that added info on the nuclear plants, as where they built and possibly, why...

ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Mar 13, 2011 - 05:19am PT
Aside from the overdone on-screen graphics, this is one of the best videos of it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3K1w7u04Zo
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 13, 2011 - 07:30am PT
One bit of good news.

A 60 year old man was found on the roof of his house where he had been for two days. The amazing aspect to the story is that his house and the roof he was sitting on were found bobbing up and down 9 miles out in the Pacific Ocean.

Another indication of the power of the tsunami.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 13, 2011 - 07:46am PT
hey there say, jan... this is very terrible... 10, 000?
so many families never to find their loved ones :(

yet, as to the older man... what a miracle for him... and that someone even dared to look THAT far out, for him...

i wish more miracles could be found in all this--i am so glad for my three friends... very precious, though such a tiny number in the huge thousands...

very hard to comprehend such things...

thank you for sharing, jan...
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 13, 2011 - 07:50am PT
And now for the reality of the situation for tens of thousands of others.

The New York Times has combined with Google Earth to show before and after photos of the main areas of devastation. You can move the bar back and forth yourself to show the transition from before to after.

Virtually every building which was not concrete has been washed away, thus accounting for the enormous amount of wooden stick like debris floating around.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 13, 2011 - 07:58am PT
hey there say, jan... when i think of all this, all i can do is remember the heartbroken letter (email) that my one of first friends, sent...

how she can face each day, after seeing all this, is breaking her heart... :(

folks sure need help in ways that are nearly impossible to give, right now...


god bless, thank you again for the share, as we pray for whatever can be done, all the more, after seeing and hearing all this...

*got to go sleep now...
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Mar 13, 2011 - 09:09am PT
Good link, Lolli.

Some U.S. news outlets want to describe the situation as "Chernobyl-like" and the attempts to cool the reactor core with sea water as an "act of desperation"....not the best choice of headlines for mitigating panic...but good for using the Japanese tragedy to take the public on a long ratings ride.

There is no graphite to burn as there was in the Chernobyl disaster...thus much less conduit for spreading airborne radioactive contamination.

The situation is manifestly desparate, but the Japanese are NOT reacting in an irrational manner. Under the circumstances...they are coping with the dilemma correctly-to prevent a complete meltdown.

The test reactor I worked at had just 1/80 the heat output...yet the cooling system was prodigious.

Cesium has been detected in the air which suggests the water did not cover the core entirely and portions of the zirconium cladding have broken down...but that's a long way from a complete meltdown... and penetration of the containment vessel.

As rrAdam posted, maintaining coolant flow in the coming days is crucial.

I don't qualify as an irrefutable expert..but I worked in the nuclear industry long enough to murmur "puh-leze!" yesterday... at orchestrated tv videos of Japanese reactors peppered with shocking scenes of floating corpses and widespread devastation.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 13, 2011 - 09:14am PT
TOKYO

Tokyo Electric Power says it will ration electricity with rolling blackouts in parts of Tokyo and other Japanese other cities.

The planned blackouts of about three hours each will start Monday. They are meant to help make up for a severe shortfall after key nuclear plants were left inoperable due to the earthquake and tsunami in northeastern Japan.

Trade Minister Banri Kaieda said Sunday that the power utility expects a 25 percent shortfall in capacity. Officials appealed to Japanese for their understanding and support, saying it was the worst crisis the nation has faced since World War II.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 13, 2011 - 10:36am PT
This quake is going to have a profound impact on global energy decisions for years to come. The nuclear energy industry had come a long way toward rehabilitating its safety reputation since 3-Mile and Chernobyl, but it now appears some or much of those gains in reputation were based on dimming memories and not true safety margins.

This will have a very profound influence in places like California or other geologically active locations. Japan is not some 3rd world country with a few foreign-trained technicians. These people knew and know what they are doing and believe in doing things right. If they can't keep an earthquake from destroying a reactor and spilling nuclear poison, WHO CAN?

DMT
Aya K

Trad climber
New York
Mar 13, 2011 - 11:59am PT
Sounds like most of my family is accounted for. They're mostly down in Tokyo and further south so there wasn't too much concern, but phone service has been spotty and a number of them are quite elderly so it's been difficult to get in touch. My mom- who grew up in Nagoya - said that the whole earthquake thing is so ingrained in them, that when she was leaving Tokyo a few days ago (she visits several times a year; last week it was a trip to look at potential nursing homes for her father, who currently lives in NYC) as she was on the plane on the runway, she said oh, thank god there wasn't an earthquake this time. Little did she know how right she was!!!
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 13, 2011 - 12:14pm PT
Here's a photo of the old man who was swept 10 miles out to sea on what was left of the roof of his house.

Credit: Associated Press
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 13, 2011 - 12:17pm PT
hang tough, Jan.

God bless ya'll over there!
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Mar 13, 2011 - 12:31pm PT
interactive before and afters of the areas hit.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/12/japan.before.after/index.html?hpt=C2
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Mar 13, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
OK Jan, that guy can out brag ANYBODY in the surfing community!
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 13, 2011 - 01:42pm PT
All the tragedies...
one mother says "my daughter and I were on the third floor, seeking shelter from the tsunami. She was swept away, I managed to remain. I hope she's alive out there somewhere."

Another young mother was searching a shelter, looking for her daughter, as they had no home now, so she didn't know where to look for/meet her. That mother was young, so the daughter must be a younger child...


That is so sad...God bless them.
BooDawg

Social climber
Butterfly Town
Mar 13, 2011 - 03:19pm PT
Aloha All,

I’ve had no word from Guido or Nancy since Nancy’s last posts on Facebook:

Friday, 11:26 a.m.: Yiiii-haaa! Exiting the harbor during a "lull" in the tsunami surges was what a watermelon seed must feel like when it's spit... back to the islands now.

Friday, 9:46 a.m.: Tide's going out, but water's rushing in...wild swirling currents and surges here—way too strong for us to leave the dock yet. Watching, waiting.

I've email those most like to have heard more. No responses yet. Anyone else hear any word since then? Curious people want to know!

Love to all, BooDawg


neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 13, 2011 - 03:40pm PT
hey there say, booDawg.... oh my... i sure hope their timeing was not off... i have heard of pros and cons, as to going out to sea... i think, from what i understood, it is all about timing, locations and a few? other factors? (type of boat-vessles, maybe)...


will be hopin and praying they are well, are found, or are heard from soon...


god bless, thanks for bringing this to our attention...




lolli, jennie, and others, as to new shows, this is what i wish we COULD avoid, very well said (by jennie?):

at orchestrated tv videos
very bad :(



thanks for all those sharing, that are trying to help us understand this
nuclear stuff...

*japan, admirble is doing their best, and i think it is because they really care about their families and homeland, as a unit, this kind of feeling is lacking in so many modern-day "scenarios"...

cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Mar 13, 2011 - 07:37pm PT
DMT - cool tsunami analysis way back!

I know nothing - *nothing* - about ocean currents and how tsunamis travel, but I think your hypothesis could be correct, or at least, on the right track.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1436585&msg=1437576#msg1437576
Brandon-

climber
Done With Tobacco
Mar 13, 2011 - 07:59pm PT
My apologies for the haterade yesterday. I was caught up in the complete tragedy and loss that these people face, and acted inappropriately.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
New York, NY
Mar 13, 2011 - 08:13pm PT
Having been out of connection with media the last few days, I had no idea of this tragedy. Reading the accounts, I am overcome with emotion for those struggling to survive, and those doing so on top of their grief at the loss for loved ones.
BooDawg

Social climber
Butterfly Town
Mar 13, 2011 - 08:29pm PT
I just got the following email from Guido:

Boo Man

All is well-exited the harbor and been out sailing. Took three attempts to get out with the tide changing every 15 min and only one min of lull. Had the boat pinned against the dock in half throttle and no action. Freaking scary I have to admit, can't imagine what it would be like in Indo or Japan or Krakatoa.

Hiking every day, kayaking and having some fine times.

Cool, you will be closer and we can raise more sh#t together.

Researching an earthquke of 9.1 in S Peru on Aug 5, 1868 that took out Greg's grandfathers 2200 hectare plantation on Hive Oa.

Mutha Nature is pissed.

Cheers

Guido of Urapukapuka
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Mar 13, 2011 - 09:20pm PT
Some very good info on this, bottom line is it ain't Haiti by a long shot.

http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/03/13/some-perspective-on-the-japan-earthquake/
WBraun

climber
Mar 13, 2011 - 09:25pm PT
You know how it is Riley.

You're in the business just as me.

We don't just say to the folks that just had something happen to their family stuff like ....

Ho man your kid is definitely toast, or he's all fuked up might as well get the pine box ready, and sh'it like that.

Same for this Nuke mess.

If they said we're fuked everyone run for your lives ....

There'd be full blown pandemonium and panic.

Instead, they just filter it down to a palatable method for people to swallow comfortably .....
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Mar 13, 2011 - 09:29pm PT
Haiti still hasn't recovered... and may never.
250,000+ -> 7% of those who experienced strong shaking died.

In Japan, >10 million experienced strong shaking... meaning Japanese Building Codes saved roughly >700,000 lives.


Haiti needs all the help it can get, even today.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 13, 2011 - 10:02pm PT
hey there say, thank you brandon-... i understand what happened... though not to worry... all is well... glad you are back...

all of us folks are upset... it is beyond us, and folks handle these things differently...

god bless...
just keep praying for japan and that the families can have food, shelter and stamina in heart, and spirit to continue on:

after all, what if this happens AGAIN in another year or two?
or sooner... :(

none of know... whether for there, or for here, or anywhere with these
plates...
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Mar 13, 2011 - 10:04pm PT
There's some good, continually updated, info from the Union of Concerned Scientists here:

http://allthingsnuclear.org/tagged/Japan_nuclear
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 13, 2011 - 11:18pm PT
hey there say, all... i just saw a report in on the yahoo news, 17 minutes agao.... they seem to be saying that a another tsumami is heading there???

a smaller one??, but that one is on the way...

has anyone else heard this, too?

Kyodo quoted authorities as saying the new tsunami could be up to a height of three meters and issued an alert for the country's Pacific coast, including Fukushima prefecture.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/ts_nm/us_japan_quake
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 13, 2011 - 11:42pm PT
hey there riley... say, it sounded like it :(

here now, there IS a new news page as to the ?possible? OTHER SOON TO COME,
tsumami... they are saying MONDAY:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110314/ap_on_bi_ge/as_japan_earthquake


*ooops, now, it seems from reading it more careful, that there is
"debate" over this:

Soldiers and officials along a stretch of Japan's northeastern coast warned residents that the area could be hit by another tsunami Monday and ordered them to higher ground. But the Meteorological Agency said there was no risk of another deadly wave


soooooo, is this just "nasty newspaper hype"
not very kind, if so...
:(


or, are they really wanting to help these folks be safe?
:(


i sure hope folks can help them move away, at any rate, from these danger zones... it sure would be for the best, the sooner the better...
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 14, 2011 - 12:37am PT
The explosion that happened today on the #3 reactor was completely different than the one that happened on the #1 reactor a couple of days ago. They could have very well blown up the pressure vessel on this one.

Not good!
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Mar 14, 2011 - 12:39am PT
http://gizmodo.com/#!5781566/this-is-the-scariest-first+person-video-of-the-japan-tsunami-yet
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 14, 2011 - 12:44am PT
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1365947/Hell-Earth-Ive-seen-20-wars-But-prepared-this.html
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 14, 2011 - 12:44am PT
I think the new tsunami rumors got started when the nuke plants blew up and the vibrations, which could be felt 30 miles away, set off the tsunami alarms again. However, there were no new tsunamis.

We did just get a notice from our office in Tokyo that the city will be without electricity from noon until 3:30 pm every day now taking the university's server and email with it.

It is very worrisome that U.S. Forces Japan found radiation 60 miles from the site.

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 14, 2011 - 12:45am PT
That is kinda outta lina, Lambone, but I respect dolphins too, man!

Haiti needs all the help it can get, even today.


What about all the money we sent them? What about Sean Penn crying for Haiti?

F*#king posers....I'm so sick of this crap.


corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 14, 2011 - 12:48am PT
Any fans of the Mythbusters may have seen them do the hydrogen exploding in canned potato chips which is a mini version of what happened to the Fukoshima reactors.

We can barely understand the deadly serious situation those workers face
or that their courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg1KdcUwOTI&playnext=1&list=PL50F72DD85012755E
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 14, 2011 - 01:05am PT
If any country has people ready to sacrifice their lives for the greater good, it is Japan.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 14, 2011 - 01:07am PT
And in answer to Dr. F's question.

It is not normal to have graphics on top of the tv screen.

Those particular graphics were telling people when the tsunami would arrive in their area at the same time they were showing what it did in Sendai. Definitely enough to make everyone take it seriously.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 14, 2011 - 02:07am PT
hey there say, jan...

i was wondering...

is it possible for folks from other areas of lower japan, etc, to send some kind of army trucks to move the hungry folks to other parts of the country, for food and shelter? there must someone that could do this... even if ships from navy??? etc, could bring in trucks??

other areas of japan still have roads that can at least get close, can't they?

i am just thinking, is all... surely someone there is thinking of similar things???

how is it, from your knowledge or viewpoint of all this?


would it be too huge to do... but then, trying to get food to every too, also, and water, is hard... is it better to think of bringing the people to the water, of towns, instead?


i will be praying, anyway, that something will open up to help...
i just wanted to understand a bit...

one of my friends she is pretty much okay so far, where she is, though her mom may be in a more precarious spot... not sure about the other one...

but--one had a trip planned to go see friends here in the usa, and she is leaving soon, to come here...
so there must be some roads open, to get to places...

hope you can share a bit of light on all this...
*course, too, when the folks arrive, if they do this, they would have to check for radiation, if they need help from this....


god bless...
Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
Mar 14, 2011 - 03:09am PT
So does anybody know how long it can take for this partially melted uranium to cool down? Is it not possible that radiation can be given off for months as they try to keep it cool with sea water?


The cooling time for any melted fuel will depend on how much there is and its proximity to intact fuel rods, Radical.

If all CONTROL rods are in place to preclude criticality, the intact FUEL rods will cool enough to prevent melting (of fuel and cladding) six days after the reactor was scrammed. But there will still be serious heat and radiation for weeks.

If there is a significant accumulation of melted fuel at the bottom of the reactor drum, a partial renewed criticality can occur increasing heat and melting through the drum into the containment vessel and possibly compromising it.

If they have been successful keeping cooling water flow, the melted fuel should be minimal...if not, there could be a large mass giving off immense heat and radiation for a long time, possibly melting through thick concrete and into the ground.

Conflicting new reports suggest they don't know how much fuel is intact...safety requires maintaining distance and shielding.

(The fuel won't detonate as a fission bomb. The reported explosions are from steam, ignited hydrogen, superheated air etc...)

Again, I'm not a nuclear calamity expert...I worked in a nuclear reactor two years. If rrAdam or Dr. Hartouni want to post more detailed or pertinent information on this...I'll abstain.
dfrost7

climber
Mar 14, 2011 - 03:21am PT
Seems like those shipping containers would be great emergency shelter.
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pic and missing my mama.
Mar 14, 2011 - 03:28am PT
I gave a donation to the Red Cross.
Good night folks, I am going to bed and I am hoping the news won't be so grim tomorrow.
AFS
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 14, 2011 - 03:31am PT
hey there say, anastasia... me tooo.... good night to you...
:)
QITNL

climber
Mar 14, 2011 - 04:23am PT
"The Japanese don't use our designs of reactors"

Wrong.

General Electric-designed reactors in Fukushima have 23 sisters in U.S.s

The General Electric-designed nuclear reactors involved in the Japanese emergency are very similar to 23 reactors in use in the United States, according to Nuclear Regulatory Commission records.

"The effects of losing Japan as a first nation manufacturing capacity will be hard... on the world ecomony"

Right.

But I would hope to account for the human impact, first.

There are a lot of Japanese climbers, right? Should we reach out to them, make sure they and their families are okay? Show some support in some way?
dirtbag

climber
Mar 14, 2011 - 04:29am PT
Rokjox, some info here:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110314/ap_on_re_us/world_markets
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Mar 14, 2011 - 04:43am PT
How do you manage to get everything wrong, yet ALWAYS have an opinion?
QITNL

climber
Mar 14, 2011 - 06:16am PT
Meanwhile on the other side of the world, rescue workers use chain saws and hand picks today to dig out bodies in Japan's devastated coastal towns, as Asia's richest nation faces a mounting humanitarian, nuclear and economic crisis in the aftermath of a massive earthquake and tsunami that likely killed thousands.

Millions of people spend a third night without water, food or heating in near-freezing temperatures along the devastated northeastern coast.

A third reactor at a nuclear power plant loses its cooling capacity, raising fears of a meltdown, while the stock market plunges over the likelihood of huge losses by Japanese industries including big names such as Toyota and Honda.

I'm glad you find ST fun.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 14, 2011 - 06:42am PT
hey there all, say.... :(
isn't there anyway they can start moving the people to a better location, somehow...

by bringing help up from other areas of japan, or anything...
:(


i'm sorry, i keep thinking if we hope it enough and pray, that maybe
something will turn into a solution for all these hurting folks...
i wish them to have somewhere to be, to recouperate... :(

rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 14, 2011 - 06:47am PT
For some more reliable info on the status of Fuku, as well as many details:
http://www.nei.org/newsandevents/information-on-the-japanese-earthquake-and-reactors-in-that-region/

I tried to explain much of this, including the difference between 'fuel damage' and 'meltdown', even the reaction between water and the zircalloy cladding on the fuel assembles/rods that creates hydrogen (which, when venter can explode), and causes the rapid degredation (trhough oxidation) of the cladding/tubes that hold the uranium pellets that make up the fuel rods, up to and including realeasing nasty radioisotopes (radioiodine, radionitrogen, cesium, etc), and can even leave the fuel pellets lying in the bottom of the reactor... But was shot down, mainly by 'klimmer' as 'a biased nuke worker'. Some want to live in and spread fear, telling everyone to get potassium iodiner pills here in the US... Or, pointing out where there is misunderstanding, misinformation, and/or misinterpretation (E.g., that Fuku 1 is a BWR of American design, by GE), yet even after that, people still overlook this, and state otherwise. Misunderstanding, misinformation, and/or misinterpretation, perpetuates incorrect speculation.

I inspect the nukes, that's my job. I enforce the Code of Federal Regulations (10 CFR 50, especially Appendix B), and ensure that any and all work done on safety systems is done IAW code and spec. I do this from a 3rd party perspective, as I report to nobody here at the nuke, not even the site VP. I am a federally protected employee (protected from HIRD [harassment, intimidation, retribution, demotion]), so I can do my job free from influence.

I also staff a position in my plant's Emergency Response Organization (ERO), in the Technical Support Center (TSC) that is staffed with Senior Reactor Operators, Nuclear Engineers, as well as engineers of various types... When everybody else is 'running away', those who staff the ERO are the ones running to the plant to respond. So, I have a very good idea what the people onsite are doing to manage the problem. And it is a big problem, don't get me wrong, but not as big or bad as many believe due to poor news, misinformation, and speculation.

There was a pretty good interview with a professor of nuclear engineering, from Georgia Tech on CNN... Try to watch that, as it was spot on. He even explains the zirconiumoxide reaction I was talking about. Bad thing is, they put him on hold to talk to 'Bill Nye the Science Guy' (WTF?!?!?).

This plant, is pretty close to the same as mine, and what you see behind the steel girders at the top of the reactor building is referred to as the 'refuel floor', and NOT really part of 'containment' (the picture shown is wrong in that respect)...
.

The 6"-12" thick stainless steel clad vessel is intact (primary containment), as is the drywell (surrounds the vessel, secondary containment), as is the reactor building itself (sourrounds the drywell, another containment). "When we take credit for something as a 'containment', it means containg 'pressure' as well as contamination', and the thin sheet metal that surrounds the refuel floor does not qualify as a 'containment' structure. So, there are multiple layers to keep the 'bad stuff' in... This is what Chernobyl was lacking.

Here's a pic of our refuel floor from just a few days ago, as we are in a refuel outage...
photo not found
Missing photo ID#194666

Another view, shows the 'spent fuel pool' right (you can see the tops of the fuel bundles), and the top of the reactor vessel cavity (center left, vessel itself cannot be seen):
photo not found
Missing photo ID#194677



Re: Fuku, and the initial series of events...
From what I gather, before the earthquake hit the plant, the P waves set off the alert system, and the reactor scrammed BEFORE the S waves hit, which knocked out offsite power. That caused the EDGs to start, and take over supplying power, so they DID start and work as intended. BUT, an hour later the water from the tsunami was sufficient to flood the rooms where they are, overwhelming the pumps in those rooms. This caused them to stop. Have to keep water circulating to remove the heat, just like in your car.

As the water heats, it increases pressure, needing to be vented... When it is vented, if the water is not replaced, part of the core can become uncovered, resulting in fuel damage, up to and including partial melting even though that is highly unlikely... When the zircalloy oxidizes (severely damaging the fuel, and causing the release of lots of nasty stuff), it releases hydrogen, and when that is later vented, it can explode, and apparently did, many say as the result of the electric motor of a pump... That blew the building apart.

Water is water, as far as its ability to transfer heat, so sea water is just as good as demin for that, BUT, it certainly spells the end of that reactor.


The containment structures are containing all the really nasty stuff, as they are designed to do, and will most likely continue to do so, as long as they can manage to keep the fuel cool. In all likelyhood, 2-3 months from now, we will see video of newsreporters at the fence of this plant, and the other units will be running.



I will try to write more today, if I get a chance... We are in a refueling outage here at my plant, so I am pretty busy.

If you are curious, here's a pic of our 'pot' (Reactor Vessel) after we shuffled in new fuel a few years ago at a previous outage...


What you are looking at is the tops of the fuel bundles, and as we only refuel about half of the reactor, only the shiney ones are new fuel.

For a sense of scale, that is about 25' in diamter, so if it were lying on its side, you could drive a bus through it.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 14, 2011 - 08:30am PT
This quake is going to have a profound impact on global energy decisions for years to come. The nuclear energy industry had come a long way toward rehabilitating its safety reputation since 3-Mile and Chernobyl, but it now appears some or much of those gains in reputation were based on dimming memories and not true safety margins.

This will have a very profound influence in places like California or other geologically active locations. Japan is not some 3rd world country with a few foreign-trained technicians. These people knew and know what they are doing and believe in doing things right. If they can't keep an earthquake from destroying a reactor and spilling nuclear poison, WHO CAN?

DMT

D... As it stands, everything bad has been contained within the facility. There have been no releases that pose a risk to public health. Everything else, is a "what if?"

Newer buildings and bridges in seismic areas are designed to withstand huge earthquakes, and not catastrophically fail. Sure, they may be damaged to the point that they are unusable, but they are designed to not straight up fail causing loss of life... They have some luck with this, and are learning as events happen. Nukes are different [for the most part], as they are WAY over-engineered to contain bad stuff, in the worst case scenerio (I.e., LOCA*), and from what I gather, they have not had a LOCA, as that would require a breach in that system.

So, here we have units that are 40 years old, being damaged beyond repair, BUT, they have not been compromised to the point that it has caused damage to public health or the environment. You gotta admit, that thus far, that is the case, everything else s a "what if?", and that is fear based. TMI, and what's happening in Japan have shown that it can be contained, in the worst possible scenarios.

I will agree that the FEAR of the "what ifs?" that comes out of this, is a whole 'nother story. But the fact is, the system is designed such that, when all else fails, it is contained... And what they will be left with is a billion dollar paperweight, that requires some continued care, but it is still contained... TMI is still up and running, save the unit that had the partial meltdown, and people live right next to it. That one unit, IS a billion dollar paperweight, that requires some care, but it is contained.


Not like so many other disasters, at chemical plants, refineries, oil platforms, Chernobyl, etc... That are/were not contained, and have had a much larger, and longer lasting, effect.


The effects of this will most likely be 'fear based', and thus political. But they are still very real affects that will have an impact.

Yes, there are things to learn... Like not building them where, or in a manner, that they are succeptable to tsunamis, but they are built to withstand seismic events.

There is a HUGE difference between western designed nukes, and those of the old Soviet Union, where the went cheap, and safety cost a lot of money... It's why they cost billions to build. If you think about it, they went the same way with their space program in the 60's, and it killed a lot of people. The reality is, even though this is a serious event, a 40 year old design has thus far kept the bad stuff in. Newer designs, are safer in order of magnitude.

A different perspective is, even though the some really bad stuff happened, sume that was even not planned for or within the plant design, it STILL has kept the bad stuff contained... Which shows that, when all else fails, the design works to keep the bad stuff** in, and the public safe.


* Loss of Coolant Accident

** Just because there has been a release does not mean that the public is at risk, as it depends on what and how much. A typical coal plant releases WAY more ratiation to the environment than does a nuke, as there is radon in most coal.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 14, 2011 - 10:20am PT
In answer to Neebee-

Japan is a mountainous country and the only major rail lines and highways run up the east coast which has a few more flat spaces. Roads in the rest of Japan are typically narrow with no shoulders.To evacuate hundreds of thousands of people on mountain roads would be hard enough but many of those roads are now blocked by landslides and the ones that aren't are reserved for emergency vehicles.

Right now they are just trying to get 100,000 soldiers and other rescue workers in to get people out of the rubble who might still be alive, and to pick up dead bodies. They have only two more days before the weather goes below freezing at night.

Japan is a very crowded country. It is not easy to find space for thousands more on short notice. Also, Japanese have a much stronger identification with place than Americans do. Their families have lived in that area for centuries and their ancestors are buried there. It's a different mentality.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Mar 14, 2011 - 11:20am PT
The island is now 13 feet closer to the US! I saw a new thread that said it even shortened the day by a fraction of a second due to the tilting of the earths axis...
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 14, 2011 - 11:33am PT
I have hear reports that the core of Fuku 2 was fully exposed for a time... This has yet to be verified, and if so, is a big deal, as significant fuel damage will happen quickly! They need to keep the fuel covered with water.

But, once the control rods are in as is the case, fission stops, so that source of heat is gone. However, decay heat still needs to be removed, and this is why it needs to have water circulating in the vessel.

As I said days ago, they need to get power to the pumps designed to do this... The RHR (Residual Heat Removel) system can pump 10's of thousands of gallons per minute, and there are two redundant systems for this. Core Spray and HPCI (High Pressure Core Injection) can both supply thousands of gallons per minute each, but they all need power.


They have to get power.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Mar 14, 2011 - 11:45am PT
Split wood , not atoms!
WBraun

climber
Mar 14, 2011 - 11:48am PT
rrrADAM

Thanks for all the nice informative posts.

Clearly helps explain what's going on to the layman.

The media should hire you .....
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Mar 14, 2011 - 11:48am PT
Kadena Air Base in Okinawa sent 50 Civil Engineers up north to help with getting the electrical power going again. After that, roads and bridges.

The U.S. Navy is helicoptering in food and water as well as providing transportation to the Japanese Self Defense Force rescuers.

We are also flying reconnaisance flights up and down the coast hoping to find more people clinging to debris floating in the ocean.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 14, 2011 - 11:56am PT
The island is now 13 feet closer to the US!

It's a plot to sneak up on Pearl Harbor!!!


Back to seriousness, rrrAdam's diagram and a little more research on BWRs. They could still have core containment on #3.

The explosion on #1 looked exactly like what you'd expect if there was a hydrogen explosion in that upper bay with the crane.

The second explosion starts with a sideways flash lower in the building and includes lots of big shrapnel. It could have been a hydrogen explosion in the turbine room. If it was a PWR there's not much in the containment building other than the core and the steam generators. That's what I though I was seeing flying. Could have been turbine and generator parts. A burning generator would explain all the black smoke as well.

Hope that's what happened, but the people who know have their hands full and almost all of what's on the media is uninformed speculation at best and down right misinformation (both ways) by those with agendas at worst.



rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 14, 2011 - 12:25pm PT
I have hear reports that the core of Fuku 2 was fully exposed for a time...

they have confirmed it was.

VERIFIED where? Source?

I have even heard this attributed to operators at the plant, but not verified.

That said, even if the fuel has been exposed, it is certainly sustained substantial damage, and even more when water was put on it through thermal shock alone. BUT, the vessels of all 3 units are still intact and not breached, as far as I know... If they are worried about, and are venting pressure, that means there is no breach in the vessel or the systems that directly go to it (E.g., feedwater, steam, emergency injections), as if it were breached, it would rapidly lose pressure.

Think of tyring to keep pressure in a tire that has a hole in it... It doesn't hold pressure.

All of them, to different degress, have suffered a loss of inventory (collant in the vessel), and this can happen in many different ways other than a breach in the system... Most likely, it flashes to steam and is vented to releave pressure (water expands ~1600 times in volume when it turns to steam, it's why they use steam to turn turbines), thus that inventory needs to be replaced, even if with sea water.


Normally, in a LOCA, after the demin water reserve is exausted, water is taken from the torus (see picture above) and pumped into the reactor. Even if there is a major breach of the vessel, it all goes down to the torus, where it is recirculated back in. If the vessel reaches a certain pressure, safety reliefs valves (11 of them at my plant) lift and vent to the torus just under the waterline... Like a big bong.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 14, 2011 - 12:28pm PT
None of the reactors at Fuku are PWRs, they are all BWRs.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 14, 2011 - 12:34pm PT
Official: Rods likely melting in Japanese reactors
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4769999
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/03/14/general-as-japan-earthquake-nuclear-crisis_8354983.html


Source: AP

TOKYO — Japanese officials say the nuclear fuel rods appear to be melting inside all three of the most troubled nuclear reactors.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said Monday: "Although we cannot directly check it, it's highly likely happening."

Some experts would consider that a partial meltdown of the reactor. Others, though, reserve that term for times when nuclear fuel melts through a reactor's innermost chamber but not through the outer containment shell.



It is much worse than we think.

On NPR this morning driving to work they talked about one of our Navy ships turning back due to radiation levels being too high 100 miles out at sea to the West of the reactor as it approached the Japanese coast.

Perhaps they will try to come in from a different direction.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 14, 2011 - 12:37pm PT
None of the reactors at Fuku are PWRs, they are all BWRs.

Yes, my comments back a few pages were based thinking that the construction was similar to a PWR. If that were the case there wouldn't be much other than the core or a steam generator that could produce a blast like happened at #3.

Understanding now how these things are built, the blast didn't necessarily come from the core.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 14, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
On NPR this morning driving to work they talked about one of our Navy ships turning back due to radiation levels being too high 100 miles out at sea to the West of the reactor as it approached the Japanese coast.
I would like to know the details of this, as people often confuse radiation (the energy) with contamination (radioactive stuff where we don't want it)... Point being, if radiation (the energy) is detected 100 miles from the plant, then the people at the plant would all be long dead by now. Think of it this way... Contamination is like dog-sh|t, and radiation is the smell coming from it. If the dog-poo is kept in a bag (contained), no biggie, right?


What is more likely, is what they detected was elevated levels above background due to radioisotopes released being blown that way. What MUST be understood (but often isn't) is that the sensitivity of some radiation detection instruments is so sensitive that it will pick up even the most minute change, even if it is FAR below anything that would be cause for concern.

BUT, people hear 'exposed to radiation' and flip out. For people like that, you may wish to get rid of your smoke detectors as they have amerisium in them, and are radioactive.
Silver

Big Wall climber
Nor Nev
Mar 14, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
I don't know sh#t about a nuclear reactor or a power plant. I know my gut feeling is this is bad, and were only getting half the story I am sure.

The looks on the faces of the people in these areas tells more than the news. I cry watching this I can't help it you see the desperation in the faces and the sadness knowing that their loved ones are gone. They are looking for 5,6, 7, 10 family members missing. They all have this look of desperation with a underlying look of reality as they pan out across the wasteland that was their city, town or village.

It is just overwhelming to think that not only are well over 10,000 souls lost here but they could be looking at a situation where given all the right circumstances a full on melt down of several reactors is possible if it has not already started. Please no!

When the Japanese come out and say that is by far the worse thing since WWII you know its bad.

My thoughts and prayers are with Japan and its people.
Please take a moment in your busy day to say a few words for our friends in the east and remind yourself how precious every moment with your family and friends really is.
Brandon-

climber
Done With Tobacco
Mar 14, 2011 - 01:09pm PT
AC, this is about a grievous event, let's keep politics out of it man.

If you want, post that to my Glen Beck thread.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 14, 2011 - 01:10pm PT
This in a company newsletter...
When Neighbors Ask: Progress Energy’s response to Fukushima emergency
3/14/2011

The earthquake and tsunami in Japan have created significant issues for some of that country’s nuclear plants. Media coverage has been significant, and there have been numerous reports about possible similarities between the Japanese plants and U.S. nuclear power plants. Customers, neighbors and others are likely to have questions about our plants’ safety.



The following points are intended to help employees in those conversations.



In Brief



Our thoughts and prayers are with the people of Japan. We are working with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission to provide technical assistance as the situation evolves. Due to differences in design and geological characteristics in our region, the issues in Japan raise no specific concerns for our nuclear plants. But we will continue to learn from the events and incorporate any lessons learned to make our plants even safer.



Key Points

-Our thoughts and prayers are with the people of Japan as they deal with the aftermath of this natural catastrophe of historic proportions. We encourage the aid and support to those relief agencies providing direct assistance.

-Our first priority has been to work with the U.S. nuclear industry to provide any immediate technical assistance to the evolving situation at the nuclear plants within Fukushima, Japan. The Institute of Nuclear Power Operations (INPO) in conjunction with the World Association of Nuclear Operators (WANO) has coordinated this support.

-The probability of a disaster of the magnitude and nature of what occurred Japan is highly unlikely in the areas Progress Energy serves due to the geology of the states in which we operate. We are monitoring the situation in Japan through international nuclear agencies. While we do expect to learn from the events, there is no information from the situation in Japan that raises concern for the continued safe operation of our nuclear plants.

-From what we know today, the complications at the nuclear plants in Fukushima center around the loss of all electrical power as a direct result of the powerful earthquake and devastating tsunami. Our plants’ emergency electrical supplies are designed and built to withstand the impacts of all historical natural disasters for our area, such as hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes and flooding (including storm surges at our coastal plants). Additionally, following the events of Sept. 11, 2001, we have incorporated significant additional emergency criteria into our planning. As a result, all our plants have procedures, training, and mobile emergency pumps with independent electrical generators for power.

-This provides the capability to deal with events that might go beyond the recorded history for our region.

-The explosions at Fukushima I-1 have been reported as a result of hydrogen being vented from the reactor vessel. All U.S. plants have vent systems to prevent such a hydrogen explosion.

-Sharing information and learning from all events and experiences around the world is a cornerstone of the U.S. nuclear industry. Under strict oversight from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, U.S. nuclear operators make continuous design, procedure and training changes to incorporate lessons learned from other plants.

-Although our plants have differences in the design and increased capability to deal with this type of disaster, we will be diligent to look for new lessons that will make us even safer in the future.


While watered down, it is factually correct.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 14, 2011 - 01:11pm PT
Radioactive contamination from the Cesium and Iodide from the leaking reactor can and will be carried by the wind. You can't control the direction of the wind. The ship motored into an area down wind of the reactors.

Having KI on hand in our emergency preparation kits at our homes is a very good thing. Do you disagree? Not because of this disaster so much, but it is a wake-up call. An absolutely vivid reminder. I ordered some to put into our Emergency Home Preparness kit for the family. Good thing to have. San Onofre isn't so far away, and San Diego must be on some terrorist hit list somewhere since we are the Pacific Fleet home for the Navy. I know for sure San Diego has a great number of nuke warheads stored and on the ready.

This natural disaster and now man-made disaster is not endearing Nuclear Fission Reactors to anyone. We can not control the possible unpredictable massive forces of Nature. This disaster/accident is screaming this loud and clear.

I for one hear it loud and clear. Do not use Nuclear Fission Reactors. Perhaps for research purposes, space-probes, etc. but it is just too dangerous for Earth based power generation, and the storage issue is a nightmare that does not go away. We need clean renewable energy resources. No one died from Solar, Wind, Geothermal, and other non-lethal energy production methods, and neither do these clean renewable energy resources have a half-life of 4.5 billion years that we have to worry about.

Sometimes in takes "Mother Nature" to wake us up.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 14, 2011 - 01:14pm PT
You just cannot admit that you were wrong, can you? That what you posted was misleading. But, what's worse, is that even when corrected, you continue to believe it, and spread it as fact.

Ever mess with a lantern mantle? If so, then you got contaminated, as most of them have strontium in them.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Mar 14, 2011 - 01:18pm PT
that just made me choke on my coffee^^^


meanwhile back in Japan, people are hurting lost and or dead.
Brandon-

climber
Done With Tobacco
Mar 14, 2011 - 01:20pm PT
Adam, I appreciate your information on the subject, it has been hugely helpful for us laypersons to understand what's happening.

My only question is this; Is chance not too great a variable to effectively quantify? It's the chance of a similar catastrophe, with different causes, that renders this technology inherently dangerous. The stacking of unlikely events in unpredictable sequence can render the best laid plans to waste.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 14, 2011 - 01:34pm PT
Some fairly up to date status info and a more detailed explanation of what's going on.

http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/news/2011/110314fukushima_event-status-1.pdf


http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/fukushima-simple-explanation/

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 14, 2011 - 01:35pm PT
Thanks rrrAdam for your perspective. I appreciate your clarifications and explanations.

You may want to remind your colleagues in the nuclear energy business to avoid building power plants on coastal flood plains though.

DMT

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 14, 2011 - 01:36pm PT
That's the 'simple' explanation, is it?

DMT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 14, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
rrradam,

I have many radioactive sources that I use for class, demos, and experiments, and to look at cloud chamber vapor trails from the radioactive emissions, ie the study of nuclear physics: Fiesta Ware, smokedectors, Coleman Lantern mantles, radioactive minerals, even Uranium ore from a mine in CO. We have a set of very good Civil Defense geigercounters for our physics staff.

The point is I store them safely, locked up, and away from students and staff when not in use. I never handle them directly but only through plastic so as not to get any residue on my hands. Even then I thoroughly wash my hands afterwards. No students ever handle them. And they are used at a distance. I don't breath it, eat it, or drink it. Nor do I put these sources under my pillow at night and sleep with them. They are stored locked away safely behind the walls of a storage room that no students are allowed in. Exposure is minimal. I'm not internalizing any of it and neither are students.

I have no fear of low-dose radioactive sources when they are handled properly.

When it is airborne in the atmosphere, you can not do any of the things I just mentioned as a safety precaution. Once it is inside your body, that is when the damage is done. That is the serious risk here and you know it. That is exactly why the US Navy ship moved out of the area when they encountered it. Outside the body exposure is one thing. Not a big deal for low doses. Inside the body exposure is a whole different dangerous matter.

Stop giving the industry BS. I know what I'm talking about and you know it. Why the heck did I take all those classes/PD with General Atomic over the years?
o-man

Trad climber
Paia,Maui,HI
Mar 14, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
This note is from a friend that is in Japan at the moment I thought I would pass it along.
"The hotel is empty. The only sound Japanese news broadcasters in hardhats waving diagrams of nuclear plants. No trains out of here. I'm in a very bad Twilight Zone episode."
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Mar 14, 2011 - 01:51pm PT
klimmer said,
I know what I'm talking about and you know it. Why the heck did I take all those classes/PD with General Atomic over the years?

this from the guy who believes that there is an alien mother ship on the moon....
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 14, 2011 - 02:30pm PT
klimmer said,

I know what I'm talking about and you know it. Why the heck did I take all those classes/PD with General Atomic over the years?

this from the guy who believes that there is an alien mother ship on the moon....


Hawkeye,

Why the ad hominem attack? Why change the subject?

You guys hate being wrong and it shows.

Many well known scientists, military officers, and those in government know the truth of the UFO/ET/Alien question. Those with a brain and have looked at the evidence also know. You've seen the official NASA stereopairs (3 at least) of the craft. Prove it isn't.

Back to Japan . . . try to stay on topic.
PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Mar 14, 2011 - 02:31pm PT
Don't believe all of the hype...

http://www.nei.org/newsandevents/information-on-the-japanese-earthquake-and-reactors-in-that-region/
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Mar 14, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
rrrAdam -

thanks for the info - very helpful.

The news is indeed reporting that the fuel rods were "twice completely exposed".
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Mar 14, 2011 - 02:38pm PT
klimmer, see the chicken little pic above....the fact that you are a science teacher is way scarier than the potential nuclear accident unfolding....
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 14, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
klimmer, see the chicken little pic above....the fact that you are a science teacher is way scarier than the potential nuclear accident unfolding....


Hawkeye,

Do you read what you write before you post? Do you ever ask the question should I really post this?

I'm just gonna let your own words hang you.

Yea, someone that you disagree with is scarier than the disastrous nuclear accident unfolding, and the people that will die as a result. Y-e-a, r-i-g-h-t.

Put down your personal copy of the "The Idiot's Guide to Ad Hominem Attacks" and think just a little on your own.
Gene

climber
Mar 14, 2011 - 02:52pm PT
This doesn't look good at all.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15nuclear.html?hp

The plant’s operator, Tokyo Electric Power, said late Monday that repeated efforts to inject seawater into the reactor [Fuku #2] had failed, causing water levels inside the reactor’s containment vessel to fall and exposing its fuel rods. After what at first appeared to be a successful bid to refill the vessel, water levels again dwindled, this time to critical levels, exposing the rods almost completely, company executives said.

Workers were having difficulty injecting seawater into the reactor because its vents — necessary to release pressure in the containment vessel by allowing radioactive steam to escape — had stopped working properly, they said.


“They’re basically in a full-scale panic” among Japanese power industry managers, said a senior nuclear industry executive late Monday night. The executive is not involved in managing the response to the reactors’ difficulties but has many contacts in Japan. “They’re in total disarray, they don’t know what to do.”
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Mar 14, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
Adam, thank you for the very informative posts. Having worked in a DOE underground disposal site for DOD rad waste, I have some experience with Alpha radiation, and rad worker training. The exposures we were dealing with were extremely low.

Paul, also thanks for the link - direct updates - good stuff.



Klimmer, I feel for the kids you teach... More little fear mongers to scare the world.
cintune

climber
Midvale School for the Gifted
Mar 14, 2011 - 02:59pm PT
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/03/nuke-fallout-risk


“Such a long time spent over water will mean that the vast majority of the radioactive particles will settle out of the atmosphere or get caught up in precipitation and rained out,” wrote Masters. “It is highly unlikely that any radiation capable of causing harm to people will be left in the atmosphere after seven days and 2000-plus miles of travel distance.”
Mike Bolte

Trad climber
Planet Earth
Mar 14, 2011 - 02:59pm PT
The bravenewclimate "simple" explanation is really excellent. Klimmer did you read it?

Thanks for all the contributions rrrADAMS
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Mar 14, 2011 - 02:59pm PT
I think maybe USA should think about seismic risks and nuclear plants:
...whether or not the risk they face is seismic (see Metsamor in Armenia, for instance, or Diablo Canyon in California).


siesmic events are factored into the design. i read somewhere where the magnitdue of this earthquake may have exceeded the "once in 1200 years" or so and therefore, may have exceeded what was deisgned into the structure. regardless, my understanding is that the Emergency Diesel Generators may have been overcome by the Tsunami. it is that power which would have kicked on and provided the energy for the cooling system.

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 14, 2011 - 03:13pm PT
siesmic events are factored into the design. i read somewhere where the magnitdue of this earthquake may have exceeded the "once in 1200 years" or so and therefore, may have exceeded what was deisgned into the structure. regardless, my understanding is that the Emergency Diesel Generators may have been overcome by the Tsunami

Take no comfort in these bullshit 'x number of years' assessments. They are all made up fairly land bullsh#t.

The key point is simple - here we have one of the most advanced nuclear energy countries in the world that has had 5 reactors knocked out or worse, because they built these reactors on flood plains and for all their design brilliance did not design a back up power system immune to flooding.

This isn't exceeding a once in x years engineering problem, this is a BAD DESIGN. I'm standing pat on my advice to the US nuclear industry - don't build reactors on flood plains. I think that is sound advice, I don't care how often the area floods.

DMT
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 14, 2011 - 03:18pm PT
I heard a news report that the power plant in question was built in 1970 and was due to be shut down very soon due to it's age. The report also stated that at that time safety standards in Japan for nuclear power reactors were for the "largest likely event," as opposed to the "largest possible event."

Can anyone here comment on the veracity of this information?
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Mar 14, 2011 - 03:24pm PT
Highest magnitude tested - at what distance? It makes a huge difference.

I'll say this again - the shaking in Japan was NOT as hard as you might think for an EQ this size because the EQ was FAR AWAY from Land.

The shaking was harder in Haiti (for a M7), way harder. My guess is that these power plants were indeed designed to withstand this level of shaking, and also, by and large, they withstood the seismic shaking quite well (as did most of Japan's infrastructure).

The problem is the flooding caused by the tsunami, NOT the shaking. And yes, this appears to be an engineering design flaw.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 14, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
Rescue helicopters returning to the USS Ronald Reagan battle group
are coming back radioactive. Obviously with radio nuclei outgassed
from the Fukushima reactors stuck to them.

Reports say the crews and equipment are fine after being rinsed with
soap and water.

Hopefully everyone is wearing respirators to keep the radioactive particles
out of their lungs when flying into the hot zone.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 14, 2011 - 03:38pm PT
klimmer...
I for one hear it loud and clear. Do not use Nuclear Fission Reactors. Perhaps for research purposes, space-probes, etc. but it is just too dangerous for Earth based power generation...
Once again, you show us that you have no idea what you are talking about. They do NOT use fission reactors, of any kind, in space probes.

What they do is use the heat from normal decay of some radioisotopes to create electrical energy. They have even used plutonium for this, and this IS a big concern, as if the rocket explodes, with the payload, it showers LOTS of nasty stuff into the atmosphere.

Now, quick reality check here... Have there been more nuke plant disasters, or rocket failures in which the payload was lost in that explosion?

Quick... Go google it, HOPING that I am wrong. But, please, at least have the stones to post up that you are wrong, and appreciate being corrected. You have yet to do this when corrected, and there is a large sample base of you being corrected, so it really does speak volumes concerning your critical thinking abilities.

If you like, I'll do it for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator




Your ignorance screams when you post at times. You say that you are a science teacher, and go over much of this in 'physics' and earth science, but rolling a ball down an inclined plane is 'physics' too, very different from nuclear physics, which you do not seem to grasp as well as you would like people to think.

And big deal concerning your radioactive sources... You must know that those can be gotten online, by anyone, right? And they can be handled, with your bare hands, which is why anyone can get them. The NRC considers materials like that to be the same as that in a smoke detector, and gives the manufacturers a 'general license' to sell it, to the general public.

And, getting a 'radioactive materials' kit, with a suggested lesson plan does not make you an expert in nuclear physics... However, you thinking you are, is dangerous. Hell, I work at a nuke, am familiar with the systems, and how it works... I am also a nuclear and theoretical physics hobbyist, and that doesn't make me an expert, and I don't claim to be.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 14, 2011 - 03:49pm PT
Lollie...
Oh, btw - almost ALL nuclear plants in the world are Japanese. That's a high tech country, and if anybody knows what they're doing, it's them... reassuring, huh?
Whait... What?

Where do you get that from? I believe the vast majority of the plants online today, and even currently under construction are of American or French design.


And if the events at Fuku had stopped the day it had happened, it would still be among the 3 worst accidents, as now there are 3 significant nuclear events. If it stopped that day, it may have been 3rd, now it is 2nd, and TMI is 3rd. But wording it like that makes it so much more 'dramatic'.
rrider

climber
Mckinleyville, Ca
Mar 14, 2011 - 03:53pm PT
Amy Goodman as usual has credible-sounding info. Not pretty. When you get to the site, scroll down about a foot to begin the article
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/3/14/japan_facing_biggest_catastrophe_since_dawn
Port

Trad climber
San Diego
Mar 14, 2011 - 03:56pm PT
which you do not seem to grasp as well as you would like people to think.

This needs to be said again.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 14, 2011 - 03:57pm PT
Hawkeye,
the Fukushima 1 plant was equipped with 13 diesel back-up generators to power the Emergency Core Cooling System (ECCS), but all of these failed. Battery back-ups are available, but these function only for a few hours.
This is misleading, as I believe the EDGs of the other units are up and running in the units that were already offline for refueling outages. The EDGs for the affected units apparently did start, and run as designed for about an hour, until they were swamped with water from the tsunami.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Mar 14, 2011 - 03:58pm PT
While I am no expert at Nuclear Power Plants (Adam seems to know his stuff) I do manage construction of two Category 3 Nuclear facilities for DOE at the Hanford site.

We performed an analysis utilizing our underlying geology to come up with what we call Site Specific Ground Motion for our Design Basis Event (Earthquake). Thankfully we are far enough inland so the "flooding" due to water will be more than a 1 in 1 million year event. Although I suppose I should review and see when the great floods came through here because of the failure of Lake Bonneville. Also, we look at Volcanic Events (primarily Ashfall) and design for those as well.

We are in the process of trying to buy two 5 MW EDG's to provide emergency power in the case of a Loss of Off Site Power. As taxpayers you do NOT want to know how much they cost. Please understand that I am not saying they are not required , they absolutely are. Prior to this job I worked at a plant that destroyed WMD's filled with Nerve Agent and we lost power. Our EDG's overheated because the Maintenance guy forgot to perform proper valve lineup and it was almost a very bad day so I have seen first hand how important these systems are.

As someone said, there were probably some battery backup's for the Reactor Coolant which would only provide power for a brief period.

Here are a couple simple links on the Reactors and what a melt down is.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/12/world/asia/the-explosion-at-the-japanese-reactor.html?ref=asia

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12726591
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Mar 14, 2011 - 04:09pm PT
FYI, according to Harvey Wasserman:

"Both Westinghouse and General Electric, the two major purveyors of nuclear plants in the United States, are now owned by Japanese companies."

That doesn't mean that US plants are designed by the Japanese although I don't think the distinction would matter except for people looking at this problem wearing blinders.

Dave

cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Mar 14, 2011 - 04:11pm PT
golson - yep, or they use a few Design Basis Events.

We performed an analysis utilizing our underlying geology to come up with what we call Site Specific Ground Motion for our Design Basis Event (Earthquake)


Site Specific Ground Motion for a, say, M7 right next to the power plant is way, way bigger than SSGM for the M8.9 in the subduction zone way offshore. Talking heads saying they "didn't design for that large an EQ" don't know what the hell they are talking about.


If you look at the ground motions on the USGS seismic hazard map (used for planning), and you look at the accelerations actually experienced during the EQ, you'll see that the accelerations match the expected hazard. And nuke plants, I promise you, are designed with much rarer events in mind (10% in 500 years, or something -> higher accelerations)

Expected accelerations ~ 0.32-0.4g (10% probability of exceedance in 50 yrs)


Actual accelerations from the M8.9 ~ 0.35g ?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 14, 2011 - 04:14pm PT
The backup generators flooded, apparently. So I am not willing to give a tip of my hat to the prescient powers of nuclear design engineers. "They design these things to withstand blah blah blah."

And are taken out by a flood.

Not good.

DMT
Daniel Eubank

Sport climber
Woodbridge, VA
Mar 14, 2011 - 04:16pm PT
My heart goes out to the people of Japan and their beautiful country.

The forcast is ominous with rain that will form around nuclear particles in the atmosphere and wind shifing towards high density areas.

Credit: Daniel Eubank

Credit: Daniel Eubank
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 14, 2011 - 04:17pm PT
They obviously did design for this large an earthquake because none of the sites had any significant earthquake damage.

The tsunami is what they hadn't adequately planed for.

the radiation level at the plant boundary yesterday was 20 microseverts.

From what I understand this is about the same as a two hour flight at 40,000 feet in the northern latitudes.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 14, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
The backup generators flooded, apparently. So I am not willing to give a tip of my hat to the prescient powers of nuclear design engineers. "They design these things to withstand blah blah blah."

And are taken out by a flood.

Not good.

DMT
Believe it or not, I agree... This should have been taken into account better in the design and location of those plants.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 14, 2011 - 04:22pm PT
Those interested in helping, rather than say engaging in what Werner would rightly call mental speculations about the situation, should see an article in the New York Times about non-profits that will be providing aid. Hopefully they won't mind some of the article being reproduced here - it includes links to each organization, and is at: http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/11/japan-earthquake-and-tsunami-how-to-help/

Aid and Charitable Organizations
Each of the following groups have set up fundraising sites specifically for the victims of Friday’s earthquake and tsunami.

AMERICAN RED CROSS
Red Cross officials say donors can text REDCROSS to 90999 and a $10 donation will automatically be charged to donor’s phone bill, or donations can be made directly on its Web site.

AMERICARES
Information is available on the organization’s Web site.

CARE
CARE is one of the world’s largest private international humanitarian organizations. Their offices in Asia are on high alert and have ensured that staff are informed of the tsunami warnings and other related developments.

DOCTORS WITHOUT BORDERS
Information is available on the organization’s Web site.

GLOBALGIVING.ORG
GlobalGiving is working with International Medical Corps, Save the Children, and other organizations on the ground to disburse funds to organizations providing relief and emergency services to victims of the earthquake and tsunami. Donors can text JAPAN to 50555 to give $10, and larger increments can be submitted on GlobalGiving’s Web site.

INTERNATIONAL MEDICAL CORPS
Information is available on the organization’s Web site.

LIONS CLUBS INTERNATIONAL
Information is available on the organization’s Web site.

THE SALVATION ARMY
The Salvation Army has been providing food and shelter to Tokyo commuters who were stranded when public transportation was interrupted by the earthquake. They are to send a team to Sendai, a city about 250 miles Tokyo, to assess the situation there. Text JAPAN or QUAKE to 80888 to make a $10 donation. (Make sure to respond “YES” to the Thank You message you receive.) Donations can also be made on the organization’s Web site or by calling 1-800-SAL-ARMY.

SAVE THE CHILDREN
To make a donation, visit Save the Children’s Web site, call 1-800-728-3843, or text JAPAN to 20222 to donate $10.

SHELTERBOX.ORG
Shelterbox.org is a disaster-relief organization that focuses on providing survival materials such as tents and cooking equipment to families displaced by disasters.

UJA-FEDERATION OF NEW YORK
Information is available on the organization’s Web site or by calling (212) 836-1486.
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Mar 14, 2011 - 04:24pm PT
Yea, me too - the flood is the problem and they didn't design well for it.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Mar 14, 2011 - 04:28pm PT
My heart goes out to all those folks. Terrible destruction.

While it is easy to sit on the internet and deduce that the designers screwed up, I guess I will wait to see just what the designers were thinking. The fact that the EDG's were flooded is not a good indication. But having managed the worlds largest Nuclear Waste Vitrification plant in the world for the last three years I am hesitant to throw the designers under the bus based upon the information that has come out. In other words it would be incorrect to assert that the Engineers were responsible for the first Space Shuttle accident. In other words, there is more to a bad design thatn bad designers.

For those against Nuclear Power i suppose there is cause for happiness:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/14/japan-quake-industry-idUSN1414498220110314

Now we can choke on the coal fired power plant emissions that supply 45% of our Electricity and kill more people per year than nukes ever have or ever will.

Brandon-

climber
Done With Tobacco
Mar 14, 2011 - 04:30pm PT
rrrAdam, I'm re-posting this because maybe you missed it and I'd like to hear your input. Seriously, I'm not trying to belittle you in any way. It's just my take on the whole fiasco.

Is chance not too great a variable to effectively quantify? It's the chance of a similar catastrophe, with different causes, that renders this technology inherently dangerous. The stacking of unlikely events in unpredictable sequence can render the best laid plans to waste.

Thanks, and thank you for all the info you've supplied us with throughout the last few days.

Best,
Brandon-
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Mar 14, 2011 - 04:35pm PT
There seems a dearth of reliable information about what actually happened and is happening, to draw many meaningful conclusions. Certainly there's a human need to want to know these things, but it will take time. Which is why the scenarios presented must all be preceded with a big if. And in any case, there's nothing at all we can do about the design of the reactors, their safety features, and so on. Whereas there is a very immediate need to help the survivors.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 14, 2011 - 04:36pm PT
Radiation is a non issue with that weather forecast.


Thousands of people are going to be spending tonight out in the rain in near freezing temperatures..
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 14, 2011 - 04:36pm PT
Lollie...

There is no power to any of the 6 units. Even though the other 3 units were down for refueling, the fuel in the pot if it's still there, and in the spent fuel pool still needs to be kept cool, and this is done with circulating water. If no power, then the source of power for this is the EDGs. Since we have heard nothing in the news about the other units, I am assuming that they are still up and running.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 14, 2011 - 04:40pm PT
Is chance not too great a variable to effectively quantify? It's the chance of a similar catastrophe, with different causes, that renders this technology inherently dangerous. The stacking of unlikely events in unpredictable sequence can render the best laid plans to waste.

IMO, no... As I'd said earlier, bridges and buildings are designed to not collapse in the event of a HUGE seismic event. That doesn;t mean they will not be damaged beyond repair, and cannot be used, but instead means that they will not collaps causing loss of life.

Same thing here... They are ultimately designed to "contain" the problem, if all else fails, and thus far, it has done this.
PAUL SOUZA

Trad climber
Clovis, CA
Mar 14, 2011 - 04:45pm PT
Whatever happens, that plant will be decommissioned. Injecting seawater into the primary system = BAD since primary chemistry is strictly controlled to prevent chlorides, which results in corrosion to the system.

P.S. I worked in a nuclear power plant for 5 years in the Navy.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 14, 2011 - 04:54pm PT
BTW, I was just able to verify that at least Fuku 1 is a GE Mark I design, which is the same design as both of the units at the nuke where I work.

That said, we do have some additional safety features that have been added throughout the years, including even additional redundancies or already redundant systems. And our EDGs are behind water tight doors, as well as being elevated a bit, as my site was designed for the storm surge associated with huricanes.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Mar 14, 2011 - 04:55pm PT
Brandon,

from what I have seen, chance or I think you mean Probability is used extensively in many fields when it pertains to human health and the environment. The probability of an "event" is one of those things where engineers must be careful and not fall into the trap of "garbage in -> gospel out".

Think about a skyscaper in LA. they would have to look at past events and underlying geology to try and figure out what they believe would be the worst case for a seismic event. I am no structural engineer, but these are usually codified so that the building design would then have to meet this criteria.

In the case of a Tsunami taking out the EDG's, I am particularly interested in what the Japanese equivalent to the NRC says on the issue. I know this is not much help, but this discussion on Probability of Natural Events can go on and on. We are currently at the hanford site working with the USGS on the amount of Ashfall that a Volcanic Event my release. Talk about what-if's. It depends upon the wind speed and direction, Volcanic Event, etc. The Nuke Power station up the road from me has designed for this event already. In their case they designed their EDG's to function despite all of the ash in the air. In other words they filter out the combustion air for the EDG's.
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Mar 14, 2011 - 05:03pm PT
Talk about what-if's

Thats the main problem with nuclear energy. If a bridge collapses because of some one in a trillion "what if", then the people on it die and we rebuild the bridge.

On the other hand, if a one in a trillion "what if" disaster occurs with a nuclear facility, then the damages can be a whole lot more severe for a whole lot more people.

Its virtually impossible to plan for every "what if".

Please don't think that I am against nuclear energy. I am just expressing the underlying problem. When a nuclear plant fails, that failure can be massive.

Brandon-

climber
Done With Tobacco
Mar 14, 2011 - 05:07pm PT
Precisely John, it's impossible to factor in every possible scenario. The potential sequence of negative events is infinite.

With such a volatile and possibly dangerous energy source, I find that disconcerting.

Gene

climber
Mar 14, 2011 - 05:10pm PT
Seems to my mind that the flaw was more in expectations than in the design.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Mar 14, 2011 - 05:10pm PT
The Japanese have bigger things to worry about right now.

Simple sh#t, like Cholera, has potential to kill more people in Japan than their nuclear reactors do.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Mar 14, 2011 - 05:10pm PT
I understand what you are saying John; however, what some folks do not understand is that the degree of conservatism and what-if analysis in the Nuke industry far exceeds what most people can comprehend. I do not say that lightly. I worked in a plant that destroyed Nerve Agent and while I believe that facility was safe, it was a Yugo compared to a Mercedes in terms of the Defense in Depth that goes on in the Nuke Industry.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Mar 14, 2011 - 05:13pm PT
hey there say, jan... thanks so very much... i had wondered about the mountain areas.... but i did not suspect about narrow roads, elsewhere... :(

also, oh yes, i did know this, as to my japanese friends:
Also, Japanese have a much stronger identification with place than Americans do. Their families have lived in that area for centuries and their ancestors are buried there. It's a different mentality.

it is just that i hoped for food, and shelter, that they'd be able to be helped somewhere, at places where they could get on their feet again...
a far-fetched hope, i know... :(


thanks jan, thanks so very much...
:)
John Moosie

climber
Beautiful California
Mar 14, 2011 - 05:18pm PT
I understand what you are saying John; however, what some folks do not understand is that the degree of conservatism and what-if analysis in the Nuke industry far exceeds what most people can comprehend.

And yet in a country prone to Tsunamis, one may very well cause a major disaster. I do understand that these were built 40 years ago, but why weren't they aware of the possibility of a Tsunami knocking out the generators and why didn't they plan for that?
cleo

Social climber
Berkeley, CA
Mar 14, 2011 - 05:28pm PT
That's my question, too.

Especially in a system that requires effort to prevent a disaster (vs. passive systems where you just shut them down and kick people out).
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 14, 2011 - 05:44pm PT
rrrADAM,

Oh, ye of little faith . . . I'm not wrong. Show me where I'm wrong. I am more than willing to admit I blow it sometimes. Not on this issue.

I'll just post this quick because I'm busy, more after school.


I said . . .
I for one hear it loud and clear. Do not use Nuclear Fission Reactors. Perhaps for research purposes, space-probes, etc. but it is just too dangerous for Earth based power generation...

You said . . .
Once again, you show us that you have no idea what you are talking about. They do NOT use fission reactors, of any kind, in space probes.

What they do is use the heat from normal decay of some radioisotopes to create electrical energy. They have even used plutonium for this, and this IS a big concern, as if the rocket explodes, with the payload, it showers LOTS of nasty stuff into the atmosphere.

Now, quick reality check here... Have there been more nuke plant disasters, or rocket failures in which the payload was lost in that explosion?

Quick... Go google it, HOPING that I am wrong. But, please, at least have the stones to post up that you are wrong, and appreciate being corrected. You have yet to do this when corrected, and there is a large sample base of you being corrected, so it really does speak volumes concerning your critical thinking abilities.


I am argueing against the use of nuclear fission on Earth, for obvious reasons, it isn't safe and the storage issues with current technology in use are a 4.5 billion year nightmare. We can't control nature. Case in point: 3 Mile Island, Chernoble, and now Japan. It is as bad as Chernoble now, and it isn't even contained yet. We are now talking 3 reactors where the rods are melting.

I'm talking about future use. On a planetary body that is tectonically inactive, and without weather events, then yes perhaps it can be used safely, and then send the spent fuel to the Sun.

If it is to be used, then off earth and in space, or on the Moon, or perhaps even on Mars to begin the process to make it habitable there and then switch to long-term clean renewable energy resources.

You are absolutely wrong about Fission Nuclear Reactors in space. We have done it, and the Russians have done it even more so. And we are planning on doing it even more . . .

Under The Hood With Duncan Williams - Nuclear Fission in Space
steveheiser Wed, Mar 31 2010 8:45 AM
http://nuclearstreet.com/nuclear_power_industry_news/b/nuclear_power_news/archive/2010/03/31/under-the-hood-with-duncan-williams-nuclear-fission-in-space-03312.aspx

Gee, it is even in a Nuclear Power Industry News publication on-line.



A Lunar Nuclear Reactor
Tests prove the feasibility of using nuclear reactors to provide electricity on the moon and Mars.
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/23247/


Yes, radioactive sources used in a more passive manner to generate small but continious sources of electricity are used also. We even use them in batteries! No arguement there.


I'll have to get back to the other things you mentioned later.
MisterE

Social climber
Cinderella Story, Outa Nowhere
Mar 14, 2011 - 05:46pm PT
Just wow...

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/multimedia/pov/A-Nations-Nightmare-117945704.html
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 14, 2011 - 05:56pm PT
Go back and read it... I even made it bold for you. If you really need another hint, it has to to with your statement that 'nuclear fission reactors' are only good for space probes, implying that they are used to power current probes. In fact, they do not, and never have.

See, that's the things with you... You have a little knowledge, but think you are an expert, and that is dangerous, especially given the fact that even when shown where you are wrong, you don't back up. You just keep plodding forward, reloading, and continuing to shoot yourself in the foot. Given your job, it makes you VERY dangerous, as kids can't pick our fact from your fiction.

For more examples of where you are wrong, have been corrected, yet failed to back up... Go back through this thread, and see where you are directly quoted and corrected, then see your replies... You can do this in the Ark on the Moon thread as well, and even in the 9/11 thread.
rrrADAM

Trad climber
LBMF
Mar 14, 2011 - 05:57pm PT
Pretty sure we have not ever built a fission reactor. It has been maybe achieved in microsecond bursts using a laser I think. Fusion is what we use.
Oh, bruther... You have it backwards, rock.
Anastasia

climber
hanging from an ice pic and missing my mama.
Mar 14, 2011 - 06:15pm PT
They are refusing U.S. medical assistance. I find this strange... I wonder if they are at least accepting Search and Rescue teams?

AFS
Brandon-

climber
Done With Tobacco
Mar 14, 2011 - 06:15pm PT
It's ironic, I posed this question on FB on 3/9;

'With our worlds growing need for fuel sources other than oil, what's your take on expanding current nuclear energy infrastructure? Go.'

One of the things I dragged up was this TED talk;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK8ccWSZkic&playnext=1&list=PL83B479824BE202A1

It is worth a watch.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1014202029

bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Mar 14, 2011 - 06:18pm PT
They are refusing U.S. medical assistance. I find this strange... I wonder if they are at least accepting Search and Rescue teams?

AFS


That IS weird. I know they are a proud culture, but c'mon!!
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Mar 14, 2011 - 06:20pm PT
We can't control nature. Case in point: 3 Mile Island...

TMI was not caused by a natural disaster.= in any way shape or form. That is, unless you could sticky valves and human error to be natural disasters.

It is as bad as Chernoble now...

So the reactor core has exploded and spread nuclear material across the whole area. I had not heard that. Worse than TMI for sure but no where near the Chernoble accident yet.

Klimmer, do a little research dude. Learn about how reactors are built and work then read up on TMI and Chernoble and then come back and try to post something.

Dave

P.S. Here's some help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_mile_island

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster



Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Mar 14, 2011 - 06:27pm PT
Chernobyl was not a natural disaster either...
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
Mar 14, 2011 - 06:33pm PT
TMI was not caused by a natural disaster.= in any way shape or form.

No nuclear accident in the history of man has been caused by nature. They are man made events start to finish. Sorry but nuclear engineers simply do not get to blame mother nature.

DMT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 14, 2011 - 06:52pm PT
Not implying 3 Mile Island, or Chernobyl were acts of nature. What I'm implying is that when these accidents happen, you can't control the outfall. You can't control where the wind goes. Yes, these are man-made disasters, but then Mother Nature has a way of making them even worse. The outfall is carried in the winds. It doesn't stay behind or within Nation boundaries etc.

With Japan, it is a natural disaster and then a man induced disaster on top of it, and the winds carry it where they will.



rrrADAM,

You really are not very well read and clue-less. What a rant. Total failure on your part. No you are wrong. We have used it, and the Russians use it, and yes in the future we could use it more. Once again in Space, off Earth, not on.

Sorry, you as an industry insider you can't get past your bias. Hey, I've had these arguments with my father for a loooooong time. Like I said, he has worked in the Nuclear Industry for 30 years. Even he said and confessed to me on Saturday on the phone , "This is bad. This isn't good PR." I agree. My dad is an honest man. I'm not an expert in nuclear physics. But I do have thorough knowledge and I know USDA 100% Bovine Dung when I read it. Unfortunately that is all you are handing out.


http://nuclearstreet.com/nuclear_power_industry_news/b/nuclear_power_news/archive/2010/03/31/under-the-hood-with-duncan-williams-nuclear-fission-in-space-03312.aspx

Although the United States conducted extensive research into the use of fission reactors in space between 1959 and 1973, we have only deployed a fission reactor in space once.

The satellite, known as the SNAP-10A, was launched in 1965 for a brief test flight of 43 days. Although the test flight was successful, the United States has not utilized any fission reactors in space since then. In contrast, Russia has successfully deployed over 30 fission reactor space systems, and plans on continuing its space fission program due to the many advantages fission offers over conventional power sources. Despite being outpaced by Russia’s program, the United States is once again researching the feasibility of fission reactor technology for next generation space systems.




Go back and read it... I even made it bold for you. If you really need another hint, it has to to with your statement that 'nuclear fission reactors' are only good for space probes, implying that they are used to power current probes. In fact, they do not, and never have.

See, that's the things with you... You have a little knowledge, but think you are an expert, and that is dangerous, especially given the fact that even when shown where you are wrong, you don't back up. You just keep plodding forward, reloading, and continuing to shoot yourself in the foot. Given your job, it makes you VERY dangerous, as kids can't pick our fact from your fiction.

For more examples of where you are wrong, have been corrected, yet failed to back up... Go back through this thread, and see where you are directly quoted and corrected, then see your replies... You can do this in the Ark on the Moon thread as well, and even in the 9/11 thread.



Try to stay on topic. No ad hominem attacks. How are those topics related at all to the topic at hand? They aren't.



And stop trying to candy coat it . . . it is very bad.


French nuclear agency rates Japan accident 5 or 6 (out of 7)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4770541
http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=212107

I'm pretty sure the French know what they are talking about since they are the most Nuclear energy producing country in the World.

And guess what? It isn't even contained yet. It is going to get much worse.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 14, 2011 - 07:02pm PT
I read an excellent article yesterday about why it is NOT useful for outsiders to go there. First, most outsiders cannot speak the language meaning they have to be babysat (for a lack of better terminology). Second, they have a lot of knowledgeable folks. Third, they have some difficulty finding housing, food, water, etc. for the folks there and adding outsiders compounds this.

So, a refusal for outside assistance does not necessarily have anything to do with being proud, or rejecting folks for some emotional/cultural reason. It may be because they simply do not need the help.

Remember, the USA turned down outside help during some of our crises. It's not necessarily a bad thing to do.

Just my thoughts...

p.s. What is there to loot in the hard hit areas? There isn't anything left.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Mar 14, 2011 - 07:04pm PT
Rox,

the word that I am receiving from the Nuclear Industry is that the fuel supply for the Emergency Power (typically Diesel Generators) was impacted from the Tsunami. DC power came on and supplied about 8 hours of power before that was gone. I do not know why it has taken so long to get the Diesel supply for the EDG's back into operation.

Here is an earlier version of what I got: (Sorry for the Format!)

American Nuclear Society Backgrounder:
Japanese Earthquake/Tsunami; Problems with Nuclear Reactors
3/12/2011 5:22 PM EST
To begin, a sense of perspective is needed… right now, the Japanese earthquake/tsunami is clearly a
catastrophe; the situation at impacted nuclear reactors is, in the words of IAEA, an "Accident with
Local Consequences."
The Japanese earthquake and tsunami are natural catastrophes of historic proportions. The death toll is
likely to be in the thousands. While the information is still not complete at this time, the tragic loss of
life and destruction caused by the earthquake and tsunami will likely dwarf the damage caused by the
problems associated with the impacted Japanese nuclear plants.
What happened?
Recognizing that information is still not complete due to the destruction of the communication
infrastructure, producing reports that are conflicting, here is our best understanding of the sequence of
events at the Fukushima I‐1 power station.
 The plant was immediately shut down (scrammed) when the earthquake first hit. The automatic
power system worked.
 All external power to the station was lost when the sea water swept away the power lines.
 Diesel generators started to provide backup electrical power to the plant’s backup cooling
system. The backup worked.
 The diesel generators ceased functioning after approximately one hour due to tsunami induced
damage, reportedly to their fuel supply.
 An Isolation condenser was used to remove the decay heat from the shutdown reactor.
 Apparently the plant then experienced a small loss of coolant from the reactor.
 Reactor Core Isolation Cooling (RCIC) pumps, which operate on steam from the reactor, were
used to replace reactor core water inventory, however, the battery‐supplied control valves lost
DC power after the prolonged use.
 DC power from batteries was consumed after approximately 8 hours.
 At that point, the plant experienced a complete blackout (no electric power at all).
 Hours passed as primary water inventory was lost and core degradation occurred (through some
combination of zirconium oxidation and clad failure).
 Portable diesel generators were delivered to the plant site.
 AC power was restored allowing for a different backup pumping system to replace inventory in
reactor pressure vessel (RPV).
 Pressure in the containment drywell rose as wetwell became hotter.
 The Drywell containment was vented to outside reactor building which surrounds the
containment.
 Hydrogen produced from zirconium oxidation was vented from the containment into the reactor
building.
 Hydrogen in reactor building exploded causing it to collapse around the containment.
 The containment around the reactor and RPV were reported to be intact.
 The decision was made to inject seawater into the RPV to continue to the cooling process,
another backup system that was designed into the plant from inception.
 Radioactivity releases from operator initiated venting appear to be decreasing.
Can it happen here in the US?
 While there are risks associated with operating nuclear plants and other industrial facilities, the
chances of an adverse event similar to what happened in Japan occurring in the US is small.
 Since September 11, 2001, additional safeguards and training have been put in place at US
nuclear reactors which allow plant operators to cool the reactor core during an extended power
outage and/or failure of backup generators – “blackout conditions.”
Is a nuclear reactor "meltdown" a catastrophic event?
 Not necessarily. Nuclear reactors are built with redundant safety systems. Even if the fuel in the
reactor melts, the reactor's containment systems are designed to prevent the spread of
radioactivity into the environment. Should an event like this occur, containing the radioactive
materials could actually be considered a "success" given the scale of this natural disaster that
had not been considered in the original design. The nuclear power industry will learn from this
event, and redesign our facilities as needed to make them safer in the future.

EDIT: It is important to note that this is from the Nuke Industry, so of course there is some degree of Motherhood and Applepie at the end.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 14, 2011 - 07:06pm PT
Here is the link I referred too. Interesting read:

http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/03/13/some-perspective-on-the-japan-earthquake/

It offers some insight as to why outside help is being declined. And also some insight as to why many more were not killed.
Gene

climber
Mar 14, 2011 - 07:26pm PT
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv

Watch this. Live from Japan. Potential faults in the Fuku 1 Reactor 2 containment unit. Possible explosion in pressure containment vessel. Plant being evacuated.

g

EDIT: Outside radiation levels 10,000 times normal. Possible "worse case" per news.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Mar 14, 2011 - 07:27pm PT
Nuclear rods melting inside three Fukushima reactors, Japan admits

Source: The Journal (IRE)

JAPAN’S NUCLEAR AUTHORITIES say they believe that three reactors at the stricken Fukushima nuclear power plant are now melting.

The country’s chief cabinet secretary, Yukio Edano, said that although staff at the nuclear facility – where two containment buildings have been destroyed by hydrogen explosions – were unable to check for certain, it was “highly likely” that the nuclear cores at reactors, 1 2 and 3 at Fukushima I nuclear station had begun to melt.

Reuters had earlier reported that the cooling mixture of seawater and boron in the number 2 reactor had totally evaporated, with the reactor’s nuclear rods therefore totally exposed for a significant period of time.

The plant operator TEPCO had earlier said it couldn’t rule out the possibility of a nuclear meltdown in the reactor – and had admitted that a partial meltdown could already be underway.

Read more: http://www.thejournal.ie/nuclear-rods-melting-inside-three-fukushima-reactors-japan-admits-2011-03

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4770692




This is very bad. I can only imagine that it will top 3 Mile Island and Chernobyl at this point.

We have to stop this as much as we can ASAP.
Skeptimistic

Mountain climber
La Mancha
Mar 14, 2011 - 07:32pm PT
Just upgraded to a 9.0.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Mar 14, 2011 - 07:34pm PT
Klimmer,

This is very bad. I can only imagine that it will top 3 Mile Island and Chernobyl at this point.

We have to stop this as much as we can ASAP.

I am sure now that you have made your recommendation the Japanese will take it to heart that they should put an end to this ASAP.

Highly improbable that it will be worse than Chernobyl.. It was already worse than TMI.....
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
New York, NY
Mar 14, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
Would those who might like to take a moment, upon reading this post, send thoughts of hope, strength and comfort to our fellow earthmates in Japan who are struggling to deal with this tragedy?






























































































































































































peace
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 14, 2011 - 07:45pm PT
Too, your earlier point Golsen, We've sold specialty pumps to both the WMD facility of which you speak and have a Nuke power plant as a regular customer.

Two completely different attitudes, and the Nuke plan is far more demanding.

The sound that was possibly mistaken for an explosion and a spike in radiation would be consistent with a PRV (pressure relief valve) popping. I've never been around one on a multi megawatt steam system but one a thousand times smaller is loud enough to scare the daylights out of you if you aren't expecting it.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Mar 14, 2011 - 07:50pm PT

No nuclear accident in the history of man has been caused by nature. They are man made events start to finish. Sorry but nuclear engineers simply do not get to blame mother nature.

DMT

I am just curious. If a climber gets hit by natural rockfall/landslide it must obviously be a man-made accident?

corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Mar 14, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
Come on, God, just a little help. It's all I'm asking.


:quote from the movie Armageddon -character Harry Stamper prays in a moment
of crises as he tries to save the Earth.

We can bet that the engineers at Fukushima have also been praying for a lucky break.




HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Mar 14, 2011 - 07:52pm PT
I do not know why it has taken so long to get the Diesel supply for the EDG's back into operation.
The emergency generators did run out of fuel due to tsunami damage to the above ground storage tanks.
How the heck would they get more diesel fuel into the plant within 8 or even 48 hours with all the destruction? They'd have to repair the fuel tank damage first anyway.

Failure Mode Effects and Criticality Analysis (FMECA) was in it's infancy when these plants were designed in the 60's. Design service life was 25 years. Reactor 1 was commissioned 40 years ago.
Reactor 1 was due to be shut down this month.
It's clear that regulatory oversight needs to be increased, especially for existing plants at the end of their design life. They're going to have to be retro fitted to meet modern safety requirements.
For those still considering new nuclear plants, they're going to have to re-visit their FMECAs and run the Return On Investment numbers again.

Why is information from Japan so hard to come by?
I can think of several reasons.
They've got a lot more important things to worry about than keeping NPR, the NYTimes and FOX news informed.
They appear to be keeping the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) informed. This is their legal obligation and also benefits all of us since IAEA is less likely to twist the facts.
They're very much running on educated guesses about what's really going on.

I just heard on PBS News Hour the question asked of a nuclear safety expert: Are they closer to the 3 Mile Island or the Chernobyl scenario?
Answer: They are worse than but closer to 3 mile island, a long way from Chernobyl. And due to the different fundamental reactor design, the Chernobyl scenario is very unlikely even in the worst case. Chernobyl was a fundamentally unsafe design.
He also said it will be 2 or 3 more days before the endpoint can be estimated. e.g. the next 2-3 days will be critical to the final outcome.
MisterE

Social climber
Cinderella Story, Outa Nowhere
Mar 14, 2011 - 08:11pm PT
A third explosion:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110314/ap_on_bi_ge/as_japan_earthquake_nuclear_crisis
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Mar 14, 2011 - 08:19pm PT



Someone will get a Pulitzer for this one, and wish they never had.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Mar 14, 2011 - 08:25pm PT
Agreed TGT.

I see people like her and wonder what she was doing and thinking last week. How could she even fathom where she'd be now.

Truly heartbreaking and she is only one of 1,000s and 1,000s.
golsen

Social climber
kennewick, wa
Mar 14, 2011 - 08:29pm PT
That is an amazing photo. The destruction in the background and the tragedy on her face. I hope that they are spared from a severe Nuclear Incident.