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WBraun
climber
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Feb 15, 2011 - 04:55pm PT
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That mantra of always tying knots at the end of the ropes when rappelling is so not true.
There's so many times you need to rappel off the end of the rope when it doesn't reach and down climb to your rappel destination.
Sometimes you need to rap off the end of the rope while holding on to the pull end and jumping to the rappel destination.
Sometimes you need to rappel off the end upside down with daisy chain ready to clip the destination anchor all while grabbing the pull end and letting go.
Rappelling is sooo much fun .....
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 15, 2011 - 05:07pm PT
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Learn some basic skills--and you can rap safely and without fear.
Yeah, gf, what do you think you're doing here? This forum is for experienced climbers, not clueless noobs like you. I bet you learned in a gym last year and have only done about three climbs outdoors (and those were probably 40-foot clip-ups). Ha Ha. No wonder you almost died rapelling.
But maybe if you supplicate respectfully, and pay a bunch of money, Graniteclimber will take you out and give you some lessons.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Feb 15, 2011 - 05:12pm PT
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Piece of cake, 2” bong tied to the bottom works the best since it adds a little weight so rope will drop easy.
Can go down single or double. If you go down single make sure other one is secured, sliding inside attached carabiner so you can retrieve to pull. [Wind likes to take it a different direction].
Also locking biner attached to body gear above what ever device using for additional back up.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 15, 2011 - 05:59pm PT
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The thing about "sport rappelers" is that they want the thrill of exposure but are too inept or cowardly to pay their dues and acquire the requisite skills.
The ones I talk to seem to think being able to slide down a rope makes them hot shlt masters of the universe.
Bunch of fools.
Rappeling is a necessary evil for me.
My scariest was normally a pretty tame single rope 23m rap down a dead vertical wall to a stance with bolts.
I had done it a half dozen times before.
But never in much of a wind.
Reaching the stance required tip toeing left about 2-3m.
I had forgotten about that, or I would have taken a second rope when I went up there on a windy day.
Actually "windy" was an understatement.
It had been gusting hard when I began that morning and by the time I did the fourth pitch (aid) it was blowing so hard that it was not even possible to stand up.
The wind was actually screaming it was blowing so hard.
I knew I couldn't throw the rappel rope. It would just go sideways left to right.
I piled it into a bag that I hung from my harness. I tied one end to me after threading the rap link and proceeded to lower myself the 23m.
I locked off and tried to do the tiptoe but the wind had actually blown me farther away.
A hundred tries and the better part of an hour later, with light running out I knew what I had to do.
Prussiking and bivying was NOT an option.
I WAS GOING TO HAVE TO RAPPEL OFF THE END OF MY ROPE AND TRY TO DROP ONTO ANOTHER LEDGE 3M BELOW THE ENDS!!
I almost bounced off the ledge.
So endeth my scariest rappel.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Feb 15, 2011 - 06:30pm PT
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I love rappelling! Sometimes as much as climbing. Rapping an overhanging face back to the anchors, way off the deck, dangling in space 30 feet from the wall (thinking the 8th rapping to the 7th on Zodiac), is just flat out fun!
Prod.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 15, 2011 - 06:33pm PT
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That rap off the back of the Headstone is a perfect example of a heinous and scary rap. Going over the lip (potential knuckle scraper) and free hanging all the way down.
Granted it is not too long, but an example I think Munge was mentioning. Especially since there IS NO WALKOFF.
Normally I don't mind rapping. Can be fun, but other times...not so much.
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Feb 15, 2011 - 06:54pm PT
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So far noone has mentioned 'conduit'!
Rapping off snow and ice bollards is not bad as long as you don't mind sacrificing a long sling to the cause. Rapping off conduit was total terror. For our southern friends, conduit was a piece of steel pipe which you inserted in the ice at a downward angle, added a short tie-off, and rapped off. We always placed two, of course but that did little for the nerves. Thank god for 'Abalakovs'. Apparently this method was in use in the USSR for at least 30 years before Western climbers became aware of it. An obscure consequence of the iron curtain, cold war etc.
H.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 15, 2011 - 07:09pm PT
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Thank god for 'Abalakovs'.
Ablakovs rule. Not quite as good as a stout tree off to the side, but pretty bomber in decent ice. I never rapped from conduit -- even the thought of it was frightening.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 15, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
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Of course you old folks don't like rapping. You're into classic rock and oldies.
I like rapping. But that's because I learned the secret to enjoying it: you have to chant "hut, hut, hut" like the cops in the Blues Brothers.
Seriously I do usually like rapping. It's just another aspect of climbing that I enjoy. I use an autoblock backup and keep an eye on the rope ends below me.
Jugging a rope over an edge is WAY more stressful to me than rapping a rope over an edge.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:33pm PT
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In my opinion, the statistics need to be respected. As was posted up thread, the majority of climbing related accidents/deaths occur while rappelling.
This is a common claim, but whenever I look at actual statistics they show that far and away the majority of climbing related accidents/deaths are due to LEAD CLIMBING. If you disagree, prove me wrong.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:36pm PT
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I used a six biner brake for the first ten years of my climbing career. Also never ever tied a knot because what werner says, it screwed you up. Anyone use a seven biner brake much, three brake jobbers? Did all the time on swammies with no leg loops on free raps. Rookies in this place...
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:40pm PT
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Cragman, it is true that the ANAM data are not comprehensive and there is surely a sample bias. But their numbers show that less than 10% of accidents are due to rappel error or failure. Are there really that many more rappel accidents that are never reported to ANAM to skew the results by such a large factor?
Just about every set of statistics you will find will back up the ANAM data. Look at Yosemite. Look at Europe.
What you see here is fear based on emotion, not fact.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:45pm PT
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I would suspect that rap accidents end in ways that make them more likely to get reported to ANAM than, say, lead falls.
The control freak in me can deal with rapping. It's lowering that I hate the most.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:51pm PT
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Yes, it took me a long time to get used to being lowered, and I always double check the belayer, and sometimes even keep a hand on the rope, at least at the start. It's possible to lower yourself hand over hand, if necessary. Not necessarily a good idea, but can be done.
The 2 x 2 x 3 carabiner brake was good on steep or dicey rock, wet rope, etc. Although most modern carabiners don't make a very good brake - ovals are much the best.
I've never been keen on figure 8s or munters, as they tend to twist ropes. The carabiner brake undoubtedly keeps the two strands separate, and running linearly.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:57pm PT
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I was talking to Jim Nelson a year or so ago about belay/rappel devices, and although he owns a gear store, and sells such things, he said he personally just stuck with a munter. When I said something like "Well, yeah, it works, but it sure twists the rope," he responded with something like "Well, yeah, if you do it wrong."
He doesn't post here, and most of you probably don't know him, but he's about as badass as it gets, so I guess I believe him.
Anybody here have any comment on ways to use a munter that won't kink the ropes?
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:05pm PT
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Double grapevine, all I ever used. The way you have it tied in the photo was prone to getting stuck IMHO. I always tied it flat if that makes any sense. Don't think I ever rapped on anything else.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:06pm PT
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Now that you have set me straight, pray enlighten me on the path to how i can engage on these activities without fear. Meanwhile I will be sure to practice all the points you have noted with the hope that someday I will be worthy.
Many thanks for your kind and helpful words.
Since you are asking nicely, I'll see if I can help you. Let's try to see what the problem is.
And while we are on the topic of fessing up to accident reports....
At the base of said grand wall that BM just mentioned, there is a certain rappel station about 55M above the deck which I've done countless times including twice when i rapped off the ends of my ropes!
Time one: 1992-i was nearing the end while sporting a pair of NON lycra stretch cotton capri pants that i'd bought on a recent climbing trip to thailand; they were the ticket for wrestling steep limestone and busting out the odd knee bar. Now capris are pretty standard fare today but back then, well lets just say there was a fair bit of heckling as i completed said rappel; i guess i was more wrapped up in a snappy retort than how much rope remained, at least until i felt the end of the rope go through my brake hand -and since my lead hand was gesticulating there was no hope. A little beaten up and ego bruised but that was that.
Fast forward to 1999: same rap, rushing to get home and didn't bother to reset the cords so the skinny one was on the correct side of the anchor-this time it was a sailer-10M up! landed amidst some rocks and this time a saw angels-damm lucky!
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1174342&msg=1176826#msg1176826
So both times you rapped of your rope it was on the same rap? Most people have never rapped of the end of the rope once.
But climbers often do not take rappelling seriously. It is just an afterthought - a mindless interval between sending the route and the beer waiting for them at the bottom. Rather then even pretending to pay attention, you were laughing it up over your capris.
Imagine if someone said this: Driving is really dangerous, I hate it with a passion and avoid it whenever I can. I know this because I was driving last week and because I was eating a donut while simultaneously texting my buddy and watching a movie on my iphone, and I almost ran of the road!
What happened is that you took something that should be safe and boring and routine - rapping at a sport crag-- and made it dangerous through your carelessness and inattention. You did not take ANY of the safety precautions you could have - not one. But now instead of saying "I was stupid and almost killed myself" you blame the activity and say "rappelling is so dangerous - it almost killed me."
Actually I am thinking I should take a leading course at the gym, do you think they will extend this to rappelling instruction?
I know you are trolling but will respond anyway. You already know how to lead, but I would not discourage you from getting rappelling instruction. You could probably use it. You may not learn any new skills, but it may make you more aware of the skills that you have but are not using. (When is the last time you used an autoblock and knotted the ends of your rope?)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:08pm PT
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Greg should tell the story of the rappel off the backside of Serra V.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:16pm PT
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That's what happens when we climb in isolation for years and years. Grew up in Modesto and had the same partner for a long time. We were climbing hard 11 in the mid seventies on the weekends only. I always called it a grapevine
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:16pm PT
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I think the point gf, coz and others were trying to make is that sh#t can happen to anyone under all kinds of conditions.
That is not the point you should be walking away with. Unlike with lead falls (which account for most accidents) typical rap accidents are usually avoidable by following a few simple safety procedures. For example, Coz described exactly how his first incident could be avoided.
There are accidents that are unavoidable where you are rapping from a bad anchor and there is no alternative, or raps under bad conditions such as at night in a storm, but most rap accidents happen on bomber anchors in good conditions and usually close to the ground. Pure complacency and lack of attention.
If people took half as much care in rapping as they did in belaying, you'd see the number of belay accidents go down by 90%.
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