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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 15, 2011 - 12:21am PT
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every experienced climber I know hates it with a passion.
said recently about rapping
I couldn't agree more. Most times not so much, but other times yep, but at least it definitely is not my preferred form of fun. Things like awkward moves getting your rap weighted over a lip. Or grainy rock as you step out onto the rap?
what say you?
what about it skeeves you out? or is it NBD?
is it the fact it isn't your body doing the direct controlling, like you were climbing?
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Feb 15, 2011 - 12:32am PT
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What's not to hate?
Leading, you have to trust "the gear and pro"
for when-----when, and if: you fall.
Rappelling: You are testing "the gear and pro" every time you rappel.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Feb 15, 2011 - 12:33am PT
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Closest I've come to becoming a grease spot was rapping. Wish there was a better way off. I especially hate free hanging LONG raps with haul bags. Slowly spinning is space just is not what humans are meant to experience.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Feb 15, 2011 - 12:37am PT
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Yes. Having done so much of it in the last half century, it IS deadly. It is part of that "Easy Ground" thing that happens--where people die when they least expect it. They do the nasty-hard climb and then drop their guard, dying on easy ground-- rappelling, down climbing a couloir, doing some fourth class while too tired to keep the hard-ass shitdetector going.
Back in the day, it was very much a mantra, "hate rappelling". A few times I have actually seen extremely competent climbers set up their rappel such that they would die if it were not for intervention.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 15, 2011 - 12:39am PT
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every experienced climber I know hates it with a passion.
I love it.
There goes your "EVERY" theory as it flies off into the sunset .......
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 15, 2011 - 12:47am PT
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every experienced climber I know hates it with a passion.
^^^^^
Spoken by someone who doesn't know very many (any?) experienced climbers.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 15, 2011 - 12:52am PT
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Things like awkward moves getting your rap weighted over a lip. Or grainy rock as you step out onto the rap?
^^^^^
Common complaints of noobs. They should venture of the gym only under the mentorship of an experienced mentor who can coach them through rapping.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Feb 15, 2011 - 12:52am PT
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Today, no big deal but what's up with that Dulfersitz?!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 15, 2011 - 12:55am PT
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I don't hate it, or at least not very often. Sometimes I even love it. But that doesn't mean that somewhere in the back of my mind I'm not scared shitless.
Most of us have lost friends in rapelling accidents. Or jugging accidents (jugging is much more hateful/scary). But it can certainly be exhilarating.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 15, 2011 - 12:56am PT
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I vividly remember my first rappel, a body rappel at Lighthouse Park, using goldline ropes down a vertical wall. I've mostly been frightened of it ever since. Too much imagination, perhaps. But I was very happy when we figured out the carabiner brake.
This thread could easily segue into "my worst rappel" stories. One of my worst was 14 rappels in the Bugaboos, in wet weather. The one good thing was no rope jams. The bad things were single point anchors that we backed up for the first guy, who was to bounce around a bit, but not for the second. Plus toward the bottom we were running out of stuff, and were doing things like pulling the 5 mm and 6 mm slings out of nuts, then tying two or three together for an anchor.
Who here has done the most consecutive rappels, more or less of standard length, but not including rescues?
gf, please do tell us about your repeat rappel reversal. And JB's nearby incident on Exasperator.
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D.Eubanks
climber
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Feb 15, 2011 - 12:56am PT
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A rap with three ropes tied together suspended in air....is quite the RUSH.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Feb 15, 2011 - 01:03am PT
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Never tallied number of individual rappels but there was this one over 3k. We had a mile of rope.
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Willoughby
Social climber
Truckee, CA
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Feb 15, 2011 - 01:07am PT
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I don't hate it, but I did manage to blow up my talus during a rappel. Whoops. Definitely an "experience" I don't care to repeat.
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Feb 15, 2011 - 01:50am PT
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Rapping is just something which has to be done to get back down. Neither fun nor fear. Sometimes it can be a bit scarey, but it is now a lot safer since someone figured out that we should tie a knot in the ends of the ropes, although sometimes we still don't. Duh on both counts!
Once in a while it can be great fun, like the long free rap out of the mouth on Monkey Face at Smith. But mostly it's not.
H.
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em kn0t
Trad climber
isle of wyde
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Feb 15, 2011 - 02:02am PT
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A rap with three ropes tied together suspended in air....is quite the RUSH.
rapping alone into Lost Arrow notch to meet friends aid-climbing up the outside face, not knowing if they were on schedule (BITD before radios or cell phones)...my most spooky rap
then there was rapping off the Japanese Route on Mt. Alberta after sunset & getting the rope stuck on last pull (shifting shale, unplanned bivy number 95...)
Brutus always said raps were his least favorite part of climbing...FWIW we always backed up our raps (& I still do) with a prussik, for Justin: our friend, Justin Case
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Feb 15, 2011 - 02:48am PT
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Prussiks, I have a bunch of em. Like an addiction now.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Feb 15, 2011 - 03:41am PT
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Remember the scene in the excellent Yosemite climbing documentary "Vertical Frontier" where Wayne Merry recounts hiking back to the top of El Capitan with Warren Harding a few months after the first ascent to shoot some photos of the last pitch (Harding drilled the bolt ladder at night on the FA).
As Wayne tells it they threw the ropes over the edge and he started to go down, looked over his shoulder and decided not to do it. Warren then decided to give it a try, looked over the edge and decided not to do it, either!
Bruce
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Roxy
Trad climber
CA Central Coast
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:24am PT
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bump to hear Weld_it spray about rapping
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:30am PT
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I only rap when I have to, which is often. It's a 0 sum game like soloing, you only get to f*#k up once. It's most demanding when you are retreating from a major alpine peak in a storm, tired and cold, buffeted by the wind and knowing that you need to place single anchors in ice filled cracks- type 2 fun at best.
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Roxy
Trad climber
CA Central Coast
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:35am PT
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and knowing that you need to place single anchors in ice filled cracks...
and cut to commercial announcement for the blue camalot
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:41am PT
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In those conditions, I'll take a 1 inch angle anytime-ping ping, love that sound.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:47am PT
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Been scared plenty of times. I really hate when you bail off of something big and have to leave gear. Not only do you feel like a litterer, but you invariably weigh going as cheap as you can against safety. Do I leave that bomber number green cam or that less than bomber tricam?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:54am PT
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Yes, that knotty decision about what to leave. An English climber once told that he left his shoelaces behind to keep from losing a runner. An avalanche in the Himalaya's got him first.
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FinnMaCoul
Trad climber
Green Mountains, Vermont
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:57am PT
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It is what it is; necessary. But after a couple hairy scenes in the early days when the rope got stuck 3/4 of the way through pulling it and midway through multiple rappels with no back up rope... I've always been wary (and usually better prepared).
It's the nature of the beast that when rappelling you're usually at that point where you're depleted; exhausted, dehydrated and hungry. And unlike leading pitches there's rarely that adrenaline acuity. I find that I have to force myself to be much more circumspect when preparing to rappel; it's where my slight touch of OCD comes in handy.
I'm sure for many new climbers it's that 100% faith in the equipment and anchors that causes apprehension. But I suspect that it's that self-knowledge that we might be in a questionable state-of-mind that causes uncertainty and anxiety in some more experienced climbers. I know that I'm always a little wary when I know my reserves are depleted and I may not be operating at 100%.
All that said there are times I absolutely love rappelling. I've learned to let my OCD have free-reign when setting a rappel.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:05am PT
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Less scary than being lowered.
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east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:26am PT
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Had to rescue my partner off the Kor roof on th SFWC, he got all frustrated on the traversing pitch(he was cleaning), He had on a chest harness, prusicked to the rope. I was below , And told him I would finish cleaning the pitch, and to just come down. He set up his rapple.and started to lower,but forgot the prusick on his chest harness. He lowered to the point where he was being constricted by the harness, then He began to panic ,flailing wildly in space. I jumped on the rope and jugged up to him as fast as I could. When I reached him he was in shock, and his hands were useless due to lack of blood flow. I tried to get him to stand on one of my adiers but he was pretty out of it. So I clipped into his rappel took out my swiss army and cut the prusick, pretty scary breaking out the knife with the heavily tensioned rope. We rapped together, down to dinner ledge, and I got a nasty burn from the over heated rap device. we treated him for shock and then lowered him to the ground. Pretty hairball
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:43am PT
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Agree with OP. It's not bad. Just the least favorite part.
NOT looking forward to the day I have to rap off a snow bollard!
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:48am PT
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Snow bollards! I've know a couple of people killed on rap. One of them could have been me on two occasions. Too much can go wrong.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Feb 15, 2011 - 11:00am PT
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giusto gervasutti's famous last words were swearwords at the fact he had grabbed just one strand of rope instead of two.
tom patey, the spice of life to the climbing scene of his day, also died rappeling.
when in doubt, when particularly tired, back it up.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Feb 15, 2011 - 11:10am PT
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I agree with Jim's "0 sum game" comment, it is a necessary evil. I always look at it like the equipment is there to save me if "I" f*#k up. When I'm trusting soley my equipment, I don't like it as much.
Besides, some of my best memories are from the casual friendly walk-off the back of the crag after flailing up the steep side (if this is possible).
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Feb 15, 2011 - 11:46am PT
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preuss was right:
rappelling is aid.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Feb 15, 2011 - 11:56am PT
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I like to rappel, but it does scare me more than climbing.
Munge got called a noob, that's funny. How is that the number one insult around here? You oldb's are funny and I guarantee a noob wouldn't have a name like mungeclimber.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Feb 15, 2011 - 11:59am PT
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A couple years ago my wife and I went to red rocks. We were trying to find Olive Oil or something, but ended up on a climb we found out later was called black widow's hollow. First pitch was exactly like the description for the climb we were seeking. Second pitch, not so much. A 5.9 squeeze chimney with no pro for 30 feet. I finally pull out of the chimney with a sketch tri cam in a pocket for pro and find flaky, dirty climbing. I knew it was beyond my wife's ability and I had no idea what we were on at the time. Rapped off a nut and a hex behind a sandstone flake. Scariest climbing moment yet for me. I was about 75 percent sure the flake would hold, 25 percent sure I was done for. There was just nothing better to rap from that I could find.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Feb 15, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
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Simulrapping, now that's fun
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utahman912
Social climber
SLC, UT
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Feb 15, 2011 - 12:01pm PT
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Less scary than being lowered
:-) That's funny because it is so true
I have a bro-in-law who is a rappeller. Wants me to go rappelling with him while we are in Moab this Fall. I said: "sure... can we climb up something first? Then rappel?" He answered no, that he is afraid of climbing. I don't see any reason to do one without the other.
Having said that, when someone has a hard time as a beginning climber due to an inordinate fear of heights, I think it can be helpful to do a little rappelling to get to know how to trust the equipment and various anchors. I've done this with my kids.
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east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Feb 15, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
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Did a FA up on the wheeler crest, after topping out we workrd our way down a gully. It choked down into a chimney. we ended up on a loose chockstone, Strassman rapped off first while I stood on the chockstone. then i had the pleasure of rapping second - Oh mon! it was freaky. On another FA adventure with Murry , we did a route looker's right of the butttress on Mt. Goode, a pillar that ended up detached from the main ridge. We decided to rap the route. My roommate was with us ,and he was not too experinced . We made a few raps and ended up on a tiny stance, three of us. He was freaking when we pulled the rope to make the final rap - off a horn and a small stopper. Good times!
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Feb 15, 2011 - 12:11pm PT
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Closest I've come to becoming a grease spot was rapping. ^^^Most Succinct Summary Award
"trivial" rap. top of 2nd pitch of something very steep at Cathedral Ledge (NH). My partner had made it to the lower rap station and tied off. I double checked the anchor, leaned back and whaddyaknow? I hadn't threaded my ATC. 300 feet would definitely have been the end of me.
I always take rapping VERY seriously. Even on warm sunny easy days when Life is Good and my alarm sensors are half asleep.
There are times however: like when I downclimbed the Owens-Spaulding solo instead of taking the rap route. That was REALLY STOOPID but I'm still here to tell the tale.
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scuffy b
climber
Three feet higher
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Feb 15, 2011 - 12:17pm PT
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Just the other day I saw two experienced climbers (OK, they didn't have
100 years experience between them, don't quibble) set up a rappel to
avoid the walk down from the top of 5 & Dime cliff.
I guess there's passion and passion...
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Port
Trad climber
San Diego
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Feb 15, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
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I think this thread was started by my words on the local climber killed while rappelling.
I can't stand rappelling. There is nothing worse, in my opinion, than retreating from a long route. Donini put it well.
"It's a 0 sum game like soloing, you only get to f*#k up once."
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NigelSSI
Trad climber
BC
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Feb 15, 2011 - 12:46pm PT
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It gets me a bit neurotic, though I enjoy it once I'm over the lip.
-build anchor
-check anchor
-knot ends of rope
-attach device
-think you'd better not weight the rope just yet
-worry about anchor
-check anchor
-check device
-check anchor
-pull on the rope some
-check anchor
-check device
-weight the rope
-start moving a bit
-check anchor
-check device
-slowly move towards the lip while staring at the anchor without blinking
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 15, 2011 - 01:01pm PT
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sometimes I gotta post like a noob to trick the smart kids into posting stories.
T3? what are the standards again?
:)
seriously though, rapping always makes me think about it. good I suppose. It's like the fear of falling where Peter Croft says that "if you didn't have some fear, then you really would be a lunatic" (slight paraphrase there possibly. thx to Doug R's interview in Moving Over Stone)
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east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Feb 15, 2011 - 01:11pm PT
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" It's forty degrees outside!" famous line ( by me) to Doug and Murry while they sat shivering in a ice cold back room in the "stabbin" cabin editing Moving Over Stone.
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Josh Nash
Social climber
riverbank ca
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Feb 15, 2011 - 01:21pm PT
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you know what's scarier than rappelling? Fast roping. I have no idea why a Marine artillery battery trained for fast roping so much. It gripped me everytime. It's just leather gloves and a thick rope 40 feet off the deck.
Also tying your swiss seat and then rapping off it would seem scary but the DI yelling at you to get down off his wall was way more intimidating....
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OR
Trad climber
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Feb 15, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
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Seems like most experienced climbers rap when necessary. Its just part of the deal. I would rather walk off anything within reason than rap. One thing that was interesting at the Gunks was the amount of people rapping off climbs. Almost all the high trafic routs were an easy walk off but people would be rapping off left and right ( sometimes on top of people on other routes). It did not take long to see a pattern. Most people rapping were often newer climbers with large packs and large racks of new gear and the novelty of it had not worn off yet. Most of the experienced people had small racks and walked off almost everything. Just an observation.
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okay,whatever
Trad climber
Charlottesville, VA
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Feb 15, 2011 - 01:34pm PT
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I fell 50 feet in 1970, when my rappel anchor turned out to be inadequate (totally pilot error... I was 16 and a beginner). Fortunately, there was a pretty optimal soft dirt sloped landing, and all I did was break my right wrist.
However, although I did some climbing in the interim, it was only in 1972 that I managed to force myself over the edge on rappel... and I was sure I was going to die. Since then, it hasn't bothered me much, but I'm the first to agree that being VERY careful is important, and that there are raps that are difficult and/or dangerous for a variety of reasons.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 15, 2011 - 01:53pm PT
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Granite Climber-with due respect sir, wtf.
Most old bucks like yours truly, mr brawn excepted, don't seem to think so much of rapping -in any form. Youngsters too often seem less than thrilled with all the fun it entails-lets check in with messers kruk and geisler on their return to this part of the world how much fun they had last week on CT.
Plus I've rapped off my rope TWICE and in the same place (details already on another ST thread)
Why would anyone "think so much of rapping." It doesn't take much (I won't say any) skill, and, if you know what you are doing, isn't at all thrilling. But it shouldn't be terrifying either. Unless you are a noob. Or a TOTAL F*#KING IDIOT who can't help making obvious mistakes and raps of the end of the rope REPEATEDLY. Anyone would think that you would have learned something from the first one, but no, in your case they would be wrong! WTF, indeed! What The F*#k? (All with due respect of course.) In that case, it's better to avoid climbing altogether.
Do you know how to put in a bomber anchor?
Do you know how to tie a knot in the end of the rope?
Do you know how to use an autoblock?
Do you know how to tie a backup knot below your device?
Do you know how to get started over lips?
Learn some basic skills--and you can rap safely and without fear.
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msiddens
Trad climber
Mountain View
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Feb 15, 2011 - 01:54pm PT
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Yes, funny to read this but I could not agree more. Hate it, necessary evil but I avoid it if at all possible. Auto-block for back-up is a new addition after stopping using one for a ten year period. I came back to it after deciding there are just too many things that can go wrong. If ya must do it then do it as safely as possible.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Feb 15, 2011 - 02:23pm PT
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I never really minded it that much. I was always way careful, double and triple checking everything. Worst raps were always multi pitch ones like coming down off free blast where you had to pass the knots on a blank wall.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Feb 15, 2011 - 02:33pm PT
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I've read enough Accidents in North America and online accidents over the past 10 years to implant some serious paranoia over rappelling. I use a back-up and triple check everything.
I agree- getting lowered by someone else actually freaks me out WAY more than rappelling. I TOTALLY hate it. At least with a rappel- my life is in my hands and (short of an anchor failing completely)- I can tell what is going on.
I was almost killed on my first rappel. I've had to simul-rap off a totally rounded dome out in Wonderland one time- praying the damn rope didn't just roll off the top and kill us. People who rappel "for fun" or as a "sport" totally baffle me. There's nothing fun about it if you know the stats. It's the #1 killer of climbers with over 20 years experience BTW...
I keep telling Mr. E he is doomed. The 20 year clock-of-doom is ticking.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Feb 15, 2011 - 02:52pm PT
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Earlier I wrote that I knew two people who'd died rapping. Make that three.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41564115
...and forget all the stupid trick rappels.
Amen, brother.
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Gene
climber
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Feb 15, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
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These could ruin your day in a hurry, especially when tired and not paying full attention.
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murcy
climber
sanfrancisco
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Feb 15, 2011 - 03:00pm PT
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People who rappel "for fun" or as a "sport" totally baffle me.
Yes, it's like going drinking so that you can enjoy the wacky drive home.
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Inner City
Trad climber
East Bay
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Feb 15, 2011 - 03:01pm PT
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It is always a little scary, but so necessary.
One climb that would show who really hates rappelling and who doesn't:
Royal Arches.
If you want to rap you can, if you hate rapping you can do the gully.
I have always walked off
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Feb 15, 2011 - 03:01pm PT
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There's a time and place.
Over the holidays I must have seen an army of card-carrying gumbies tackling the Solar Slab raps in groups of a hundred. (OK, I exaggerate.) They were simul-rapping and linking raps that barely lunk so that they could have the pleasure of pulling 450 feet of rope over 5.4 knobby chimney slab. Good times. But that's how we all learn. After their zillionth recovery mission they may have caught on that their scheme wasn't really that speedy.
Sometimes I'm willing to risk getting my ropes stuck and sitting out all night vs. hiking b/c I really can be just that lazy.
I cried last summer at the final belay on the Muir b/c it was dark and I needed to plop my butt into the void for a free hanging rap back to the bags. All of the sudden I felt like a threatened feral beast, and I just couldn't do it. But that was irrational fear, not actual worry that the system was going to fail.
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Anastasia
climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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Feb 15, 2011 - 03:20pm PT
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I'm scared of rappelling... It's a good kind of scared that makes me check what I am doing, put the knot at the end of the rope even when a partner hates it... "It's my life."
AFS
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Captain...or Skully
climber
The Seas of Stone.
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Feb 15, 2011 - 03:24pm PT
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"Lunk"? Hehehe. That's imaginative.
Not a sport rapper. Or a gansta rapper. Or really any kinda rapper.
I rap when the walk off doesn't exist or can't be faced. That is all.
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Roxy
Trad climber
CA Central Coast
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Feb 15, 2011 - 04:43pm PT
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+1 for the NDG vs. rapping
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Feb 15, 2011 - 04:44pm PT
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No hate here. More like indifferent. It's what I need to do to get down sometimes. It's part of the experience. Climb with a good partner and your whole time on the wall is FUN, including rappelling.
Josh
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 15, 2011 - 04:55pm PT
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That mantra of always tying knots at the end of the ropes when rappelling is so not true.
There's so many times you need to rappel off the end of the rope when it doesn't reach and down climb to your rappel destination.
Sometimes you need to rap off the end of the rope while holding on to the pull end and jumping to the rappel destination.
Sometimes you need to rappel off the end upside down with daisy chain ready to clip the destination anchor all while grabbing the pull end and letting go.
Rappelling is sooo much fun .....
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 15, 2011 - 05:07pm PT
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Learn some basic skills--and you can rap safely and without fear.
Yeah, gf, what do you think you're doing here? This forum is for experienced climbers, not clueless noobs like you. I bet you learned in a gym last year and have only done about three climbs outdoors (and those were probably 40-foot clip-ups). Ha Ha. No wonder you almost died rapelling.
But maybe if you supplicate respectfully, and pay a bunch of money, Graniteclimber will take you out and give you some lessons.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Feb 15, 2011 - 05:12pm PT
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Piece of cake, 2” bong tied to the bottom works the best since it adds a little weight so rope will drop easy.
Can go down single or double. If you go down single make sure other one is secured, sliding inside attached carabiner so you can retrieve to pull. [Wind likes to take it a different direction].
Also locking biner attached to body gear above what ever device using for additional back up.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Feb 15, 2011 - 05:59pm PT
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The thing about "sport rappelers" is that they want the thrill of exposure but are too inept or cowardly to pay their dues and acquire the requisite skills.
The ones I talk to seem to think being able to slide down a rope makes them hot shlt masters of the universe.
Bunch of fools.
Rappeling is a necessary evil for me.
My scariest was normally a pretty tame single rope 23m rap down a dead vertical wall to a stance with bolts.
I had done it a half dozen times before.
But never in much of a wind.
Reaching the stance required tip toeing left about 2-3m.
I had forgotten about that, or I would have taken a second rope when I went up there on a windy day.
Actually "windy" was an understatement.
It had been gusting hard when I began that morning and by the time I did the fourth pitch (aid) it was blowing so hard that it was not even possible to stand up.
The wind was actually screaming it was blowing so hard.
I knew I couldn't throw the rappel rope. It would just go sideways left to right.
I piled it into a bag that I hung from my harness. I tied one end to me after threading the rap link and proceeded to lower myself the 23m.
I locked off and tried to do the tiptoe but the wind had actually blown me farther away.
A hundred tries and the better part of an hour later, with light running out I knew what I had to do.
Prussiking and bivying was NOT an option.
I WAS GOING TO HAVE TO RAPPEL OFF THE END OF MY ROPE AND TRY TO DROP ONTO ANOTHER LEDGE 3M BELOW THE ENDS!!
I almost bounced off the ledge.
So endeth my scariest rappel.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Feb 15, 2011 - 06:30pm PT
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I love rappelling! Sometimes as much as climbing. Rapping an overhanging face back to the anchors, way off the deck, dangling in space 30 feet from the wall (thinking the 8th rapping to the 7th on Zodiac), is just flat out fun!
Prod.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Feb 15, 2011 - 06:33pm PT
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That rap off the back of the Headstone is a perfect example of a heinous and scary rap. Going over the lip (potential knuckle scraper) and free hanging all the way down.
Granted it is not too long, but an example I think Munge was mentioning. Especially since there IS NO WALKOFF.
Normally I don't mind rapping. Can be fun, but other times...not so much.
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Feb 15, 2011 - 06:54pm PT
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So far noone has mentioned 'conduit'!
Rapping off snow and ice bollards is not bad as long as you don't mind sacrificing a long sling to the cause. Rapping off conduit was total terror. For our southern friends, conduit was a piece of steel pipe which you inserted in the ice at a downward angle, added a short tie-off, and rapped off. We always placed two, of course but that did little for the nerves. Thank god for 'Abalakovs'. Apparently this method was in use in the USSR for at least 30 years before Western climbers became aware of it. An obscure consequence of the iron curtain, cold war etc.
H.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 15, 2011 - 07:09pm PT
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Thank god for 'Abalakovs'.
Ablakovs rule. Not quite as good as a stout tree off to the side, but pretty bomber in decent ice. I never rapped from conduit -- even the thought of it was frightening.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Feb 15, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
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Of course you old folks don't like rapping. You're into classic rock and oldies.
I like rapping. But that's because I learned the secret to enjoying it: you have to chant "hut, hut, hut" like the cops in the Blues Brothers.
Seriously I do usually like rapping. It's just another aspect of climbing that I enjoy. I use an autoblock backup and keep an eye on the rope ends below me.
Jugging a rope over an edge is WAY more stressful to me than rapping a rope over an edge.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:33pm PT
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In my opinion, the statistics need to be respected. As was posted up thread, the majority of climbing related accidents/deaths occur while rappelling.
This is a common claim, but whenever I look at actual statistics they show that far and away the majority of climbing related accidents/deaths are due to LEAD CLIMBING. If you disagree, prove me wrong.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:36pm PT
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I used a six biner brake for the first ten years of my climbing career. Also never ever tied a knot because what werner says, it screwed you up. Anyone use a seven biner brake much, three brake jobbers? Did all the time on swammies with no leg loops on free raps. Rookies in this place...
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:40pm PT
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Cragman, it is true that the ANAM data are not comprehensive and there is surely a sample bias. But their numbers show that less than 10% of accidents are due to rappel error or failure. Are there really that many more rappel accidents that are never reported to ANAM to skew the results by such a large factor?
Just about every set of statistics you will find will back up the ANAM data. Look at Yosemite. Look at Europe.
What you see here is fear based on emotion, not fact.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:45pm PT
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I would suspect that rap accidents end in ways that make them more likely to get reported to ANAM than, say, lead falls.
The control freak in me can deal with rapping. It's lowering that I hate the most.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:51pm PT
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Yes, it took me a long time to get used to being lowered, and I always double check the belayer, and sometimes even keep a hand on the rope, at least at the start. It's possible to lower yourself hand over hand, if necessary. Not necessarily a good idea, but can be done.
The 2 x 2 x 3 carabiner brake was good on steep or dicey rock, wet rope, etc. Although most modern carabiners don't make a very good brake - ovals are much the best.
I've never been keen on figure 8s or munters, as they tend to twist ropes. The carabiner brake undoubtedly keeps the two strands separate, and running linearly.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 15, 2011 - 09:57pm PT
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I was talking to Jim Nelson a year or so ago about belay/rappel devices, and although he owns a gear store, and sells such things, he said he personally just stuck with a munter. When I said something like "Well, yeah, it works, but it sure twists the rope," he responded with something like "Well, yeah, if you do it wrong."
He doesn't post here, and most of you probably don't know him, but he's about as badass as it gets, so I guess I believe him.
Anybody here have any comment on ways to use a munter that won't kink the ropes?
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:05pm PT
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Double grapevine, all I ever used. The way you have it tied in the photo was prone to getting stuck IMHO. I always tied it flat if that makes any sense. Don't think I ever rapped on anything else.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:06pm PT
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Now that you have set me straight, pray enlighten me on the path to how i can engage on these activities without fear. Meanwhile I will be sure to practice all the points you have noted with the hope that someday I will be worthy.
Many thanks for your kind and helpful words.
Since you are asking nicely, I'll see if I can help you. Let's try to see what the problem is.
And while we are on the topic of fessing up to accident reports....
At the base of said grand wall that BM just mentioned, there is a certain rappel station about 55M above the deck which I've done countless times including twice when i rapped off the ends of my ropes!
Time one: 1992-i was nearing the end while sporting a pair of NON lycra stretch cotton capri pants that i'd bought on a recent climbing trip to thailand; they were the ticket for wrestling steep limestone and busting out the odd knee bar. Now capris are pretty standard fare today but back then, well lets just say there was a fair bit of heckling as i completed said rappel; i guess i was more wrapped up in a snappy retort than how much rope remained, at least until i felt the end of the rope go through my brake hand -and since my lead hand was gesticulating there was no hope. A little beaten up and ego bruised but that was that.
Fast forward to 1999: same rap, rushing to get home and didn't bother to reset the cords so the skinny one was on the correct side of the anchor-this time it was a sailer-10M up! landed amidst some rocks and this time a saw angels-damm lucky!
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1174342&msg=1176826#msg1176826
So both times you rapped of your rope it was on the same rap? Most people have never rapped of the end of the rope once.
But climbers often do not take rappelling seriously. It is just an afterthought - a mindless interval between sending the route and the beer waiting for them at the bottom. Rather then even pretending to pay attention, you were laughing it up over your capris.
Imagine if someone said this: Driving is really dangerous, I hate it with a passion and avoid it whenever I can. I know this because I was driving last week and because I was eating a donut while simultaneously texting my buddy and watching a movie on my iphone, and I almost ran of the road!
What happened is that you took something that should be safe and boring and routine - rapping at a sport crag-- and made it dangerous through your carelessness and inattention. You did not take ANY of the safety precautions you could have - not one. But now instead of saying "I was stupid and almost killed myself" you blame the activity and say "rappelling is so dangerous - it almost killed me."
Actually I am thinking I should take a leading course at the gym, do you think they will extend this to rappelling instruction?
I know you are trolling but will respond anyway. You already know how to lead, but I would not discourage you from getting rappelling instruction. You could probably use it. You may not learn any new skills, but it may make you more aware of the skills that you have but are not using. (When is the last time you used an autoblock and knotted the ends of your rope?)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:08pm PT
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Greg should tell the story of the rappel off the backside of Serra V.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:16pm PT
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That's what happens when we climb in isolation for years and years. Grew up in Modesto and had the same partner for a long time. We were climbing hard 11 in the mid seventies on the weekends only. I always called it a grapevine
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:16pm PT
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I think the point gf, coz and others were trying to make is that sh#t can happen to anyone under all kinds of conditions.
That is not the point you should be walking away with. Unlike with lead falls (which account for most accidents) typical rap accidents are usually avoidable by following a few simple safety procedures. For example, Coz described exactly how his first incident could be avoided.
There are accidents that are unavoidable where you are rapping from a bad anchor and there is no alternative, or raps under bad conditions such as at night in a storm, but most rap accidents happen on bomber anchors in good conditions and usually close to the ground. Pure complacency and lack of attention.
If people took half as much care in rapping as they did in belaying, you'd see the number of belay accidents go down by 90%.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:18pm PT
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I actually like rappelling.
Having someone lower me is not my fave.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:22pm PT
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That's it. If we were using different sized ropes I would always triple up the knot on the smaller rope.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:24pm PT
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People who are nervous about rapping, make me nervous.
If they can't trust themselves to safely hold and lower their own body when their own life is at stake, I have difficulty trusting them to belay and/or lower mine, when my life is at stake.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:26pm PT
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I'm with Marty, always use a double fishermans. Never had an issue with it even in Red Rocks. You just gotta pay attention,,,,, and get a little lucky.
What do you use AC?
Prod.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:28pm PT
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I don't hate rappeling just hate all of the problems that can come with it.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:40pm PT
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I just have this empirical evidence, I climbed pretty hard for around 25 years and lived to tell about it. I alway employed a very simple rule re safety and that was to do the same thing every time, then check it over and over. Thats why as silly as it sounds I always and never wavered, tied in with a bowline. The snake comes out of the hole, goes around the tree and goes back in the hole...
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 15, 2011 - 10:41pm PT
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Seems like you have a problem there...
Why would there be any problem? There is no shortage of people who can competently belay and rappel.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 15, 2011 - 11:02pm PT
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There is no shortage of people who can competently belay and rappel.
Sure, but obviously gf isn't one of them. I think you should offer to teach him. I mean it's easy to sit back in front of your computer and be mean to noobs, but I've heard that gf, even though he doesn't have much climbing experience, is an okay guy, and I'm sure he'd really appreciate a few lessons from you.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 15, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
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but I've heard that gf, even though he doesn't have much climbing experience, is an okay guy, and I'm sure he'd really appreciate a few lessons from you.
You haven't been keeping up. gf has tons of experience. He's been rapping of the ends of his ropes for years, starting from before I was even born maybe. I heard he's starting a class on rapping.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 15, 2011 - 11:43pm PT
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You haven't been keeping up. gf has tons of experience. He's been rapping of the ends of his ropes for years, starting from before I was even born maybe.
Where'd you get that idea. "gf" is no more a middle-aged climber with an all-over-the-globe resume of first ascents than I am the Emporer of the Kingdom of Heaven. "gf" is just like "jstan". An internet avatar used by a group of Japanese schoolgirls for a project in their English class.
Here's the real "gf"
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Captain...or Skully
climber
The Seas of Stone.
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Feb 15, 2011 - 11:46pm PT
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Wow, looks like she don't like rappin' either.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Feb 15, 2011 - 11:53pm PT
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Why would anyone "think so much of rapping." It doesn't take much (I won't say any) skill, and, if you know what you are doing, isn't at all thrilling. But it shouldn't be terrifying either. Unless you are a noob. Or a TOTAL F*#KING IDIOT who can't help making obvious mistakes and raps of the end of the rope REPEATEDLY. Anyone would think that you would have learned something from the first one, but no, in your case they would be wrong! WTF, indeed! What The F*#k? (All with due respect of course.) In that case, it's better to avoid climbing altogether.
hahahah!
nice drive-by.
rc represent!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 16, 2011 - 12:15am PT
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. Walk (or rap) a few miles in these pumps baby and then we'll talk
Most climbers can go their entire life without rapping off the end of their rope once. You've managed this TWICE and on the SAME rap and in good conditions with not exigent circumstances without any starlight or storm.
And most astoundingly you appear to have managed to learn NOTHING worthwhile along the way. It's usual to have screw-ups along the way, but what's not usual is making the same screw-up repeatedly and in the same place.
You can't argue with that experience. You can't teach that experience. You should (at all costs) AVOID that experience.
Those pumps of yours, baby, aren't pumps I'd care to rap in. Wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 16, 2011 - 12:43am PT
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granite - when you're in a hole. Stop digging.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 16, 2011 - 01:01am PT
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Hole, the only hole I see on this thread is the one with Jim Brennan's foot sticking out of it... Or the crater at the base of gf's climbs. Any pictures of that?
But this thread is going downslope fast. Maybe someone else can weigh in that has experience in NOT repeatedly falling of his rope?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 16, 2011 - 01:57am PT
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You have admit that the match on the glasses was uncanny.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Feb 16, 2011 - 02:21am PT
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rappelling can be enjoyable
it's all about awareness and risk management
it's safe and fun if you manage the risk properly
be willing to spend gear to make safe anchors
skimpy anchors are an incredibly foolish economy
you can worry about replacing gear once you get down safely
not paying attention is even worse
you can relax your attention once you are sitting down at home
check all the rigging so that you can trust it
then pay attention to everything so you can trust yourself and enjoy it
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 16, 2011 - 02:48am PT
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i think grapevine as a name came from boyscouts. It was in their handbook.
used to be my standard after having an 8 snag too many times
then I went to EDK
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Feb 16, 2011 - 02:59am PT
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Just stumbled across this thread...
I LOVE RAPPELLING!!!
I am surprised to see how many of you don't!
I pretty much love all aspects of the sport...
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 16, 2011 - 03:56am PT
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RURPS, I'm GoiNG to dIE!!!!
Seriously, maybe I'm too harsh, but if I rap off my rope, I will be the first to admit that I am a f*#king idiot. And if I do it twice, and survive, I will have that tatooed on my forehead. I didn't know who gf was when he responded to my post here and not sure why he responded the way he did. While I do not have first ascents of big mountains with celebrity climbers and climbing mag cover shots to my credit, I am able to, so far, safely make routine raps.
Most rap accidents are not because the rapping was dangerous, but because the rapper was rapping dangerously. I've noticed that the more experienced the climber, the more they feel it to be their duty to not pay attention. Maybe it's just my perception but rapping may be the only aspect of climbing in which danger increases in proportion to experience, with the exception of brand-new noobs. The incidents and near-incidents that I've seen are usually noobs with no experience, or very experienced climbers--there is very little middle ground.
Of course, once you rap of the end of that rope, gravity won't care how many first ascents you've put up or how many climbing mag cover shots you have, it'll treat you the same as any free-falling object...
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426
climber
☬
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Feb 16, 2011 - 08:05am PT
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Gaston Rebuffat: (approximation) "All the best climbers die on rappel..."
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 16, 2011 - 09:07am PT
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I didn't know who gf was when he responded to my post
Yes, he's not that cute little Japanese schoolgirl. I wish he was, cuz as things actually are, this is the image of him that I'm stuck carrying around in my mind...
Gotta say, I find the schoolgirl much cuter, but what can you do?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 16, 2011 - 10:57am PT
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I'd guess that there was no walk off?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 16, 2011 - 11:01am PT
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My biggest fear (with reason) when rapping off of a big route in bad conditions is getting the rope hung up. Retrieving the rope during bad weather can be, and often is, a nightmare. Getting hung up happens sometimes even when great care and experience are put into play.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Feb 16, 2011 - 11:08am PT
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I beg your pardon DMT, there is NOT always a walkoff- not where I climb.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 16, 2011 - 11:09am PT
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I beg your pardon DMT, there is NOT always a walkoff- not where I climb.
Sure there is. It's just that the last step on it may in fact be your last step.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Feb 16, 2011 - 11:13am PT
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I didn't know who gf was when he responded to my post here and not sure why he responded the way he did.
hahaha! we couldn't have guessed!
nor could we have guessed what yr climbing "experience" mostly consisted of.
the Illuminati avatar is a nice touch, though.
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martygarrison
Trad climber
Washington DC
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Feb 16, 2011 - 01:39pm PT
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DMT, not always a walk off....think of the mace or a number of other free standing routes
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Feb 16, 2011 - 02:07pm PT
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Sometimes you need to rappel off the end upside down with daisy chain ready to clip the destination anchor all while grabbing the pull end and letting go.
That is one I want to see!
Back to the OP... While I consider myself to be fairly confident, calm and collected on the lead/follow, a rap can easily turn me into a schoolgirl. I have lost two friends to rap stupidity so I tend to check everything x^n ({x,n}=Z, x>2, n>x) times and then proceed with great caution. Come on folks, it's 100% gear at this point. One tiny screw-up can ruin your day.
Nope, not a lover of raps (except when Jay-Z or Dre does them.)
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Feb 16, 2011 - 03:21pm PT
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DMT
Have you done Higher Spire?
or Phantom Pinnacle?
or etc etc etc.....?
H.
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murcy
climber
sanfrancisco
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Feb 16, 2011 - 03:33pm PT
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You can walk off anything. Sometimes, though, your feet then scrabble in mid-air, and then you fall. You end up with plusses in your eyes and stars and little birds fly around your head. I have seen this many times.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Feb 16, 2011 - 05:56pm PT
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but most rap accidents happen on bomber anchors in good conditions and usually close to the ground. Pure complacency and lack of attention.
Sure, this perfectly describes my near miss (if you call 300 feet nearly vertical "close to the ground"). I was no noob and had been climbing a lot that year. That's precisely the point. Anyone can f@#k up a rap for any of about 25 reasons.
Generally you don't live to explain to Jed Williamson what you did wrong. That's the other point.
DMT
I've had more than a couple of rap adventures when there was no reasonable option for "walking" down. Think through all the options, then take the safest one.
I suppose down climbing from Lost Arrow Tip could be considered an option.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Feb 16, 2011 - 05:59pm PT
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No, DMT wouldn't know about any of those places. Doesn't it just piss you off? Doesn't it?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Feb 16, 2011 - 09:13pm PT
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Bob Kamps and I used to go down the rope hand-over-hand sometimes in the Needles. Never really enjoyed the false security of the rappel.
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steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
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Feb 16, 2011 - 10:26pm PT
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I saved a guys bacon a few years ago at a local cliff. It was really bizarre.
I was walking up the trail to the cliff base, and looked up to see this guy rapping off, but something didn't look right.
He was up about 80 feet, hanging upside down, on this overhanging face. Plus he had a pack on. What immediately struck me was that he only had 2 FEET OF ROPE LEFT and NO knot in the end. He was motionless and terrified. I also observed his 2 buddies down below watching- who had NO idea he was in trouble.
Well, my adrenaline kicked in REAL fast. I yelled up to this guy to hang on and we would be up top pronto. He only replied "hurry".
The guy, for no obvious reason, had taken his trail rope, and run it back up thru his anchors, leaving him about 80 feet short of the ground-out of rope.
In hind-sight, he could of pulled the rope thru the anchor, letting it drop to the ground, but I didn't really see this from below, and who knows if this would of succeeded.
I told his friends that we had to get up there fast. As we ran up the trail at full speed, ( the fastest I've ever done it in), I explained what we were going to do.
I set up 2 belay stations, one to lower me and the other to lower the guy.
In the back of my mind, I was wondering if I could trust these guys to not drop me. When I reached the guy, who was really terrified by this time, I clipped into his harness, with a locking beener, using the trail rope. We were both hanging off this overhanging face.
This guy was no lightweight and he also had a big pack on. I yelled up to the guy on top to get ready, then I told the guy he could let go.
He went shooting down as if he wasn't even on belay. I instinctively reached over and grabbed his rope which gave me one hell of a rope burn. I really wasn't sure if the guy up top really had him.
He quickly came to a stop soon after, as the belay up top came into full effect. He then got lowered, as did I.
The guy wasn't hurt, but mentally pretty shaken up. I told him that I bet he wouldn't do that again. He never said a word.
Funny thing is that as we were lowering him, I saw this rescue guy arriving with a stretcher. I assumed that someone had called and thought that was a pretty fast response.
It turned out that they were coming for another climber who had broken an ankle. They never did learn about the close call, which would of resulted in a body recovery. Ya, it can turn ugly pretty fast.
After driving over an hour to get there, I decided to do a few laps anyway, but my hand felt like it was on fire. It took weeks for the rope burn to heal.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Feb 16, 2011 - 10:37pm PT
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Bob Kamps and I used to go down the rope hand-over-hand sometimes in the Needles.
Not so much fun with the teflon-coated floss i use now.
heh
haven't used the arm wrap method since i left the pnw.
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Feb 17, 2011 - 02:20am PT
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Brings to mind a story. Me and a buddy decided to climb the N. face of Mt San Jacinto via the snow creek route, but in summer. We followed thr running water onto the face, unwittingly ending up on the west fork of snow creek. After 3 days of desperate climbing, including a 200 foot unprotected vertical 5.7 section that we climbed in mountain boots and with 45 lb packs, we made it to the summit. We were starving, torn up and exhausted, but proud to have pulled it off. I had our little 100ft 9mm rope on the outside of my pack, and as we walked down toward the tram station we passed some people, one of whom said "hey, looks like somebody has been rappelling".
Hell yeah i hate rappelling and dont care much for those who do it as sport either.
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end of a long day, forgetting whether to pull blue or red after a monotonous series of raps where they all blend together
Let us know!