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Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 28, 2010 - 04:05pm PT
No, all diplomats spy on each other, and the countries they're posted to. No news there. The disclosures simply prove it, and prevent them from pretending that they don't spy on each other, and advise their governments as to the meaning and use of the information that is obtained.

As the old saying goes, diplomats (and countries) have only interests, not principles. Probably said by some cynical Frenchman, but true nonetheless.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Nov 28, 2010 - 04:14pm PT
Is it a surprise to the World that Israel is a close ally of the US?

No.


Is it a surprise to the World that we do want to try and stabilize the ME?

No.



Is it a surprise to the World that we are all worried about Iran and them getting the capability of Nuclear bombs?

No.



Is it a surprise to the World that the US has been involved in regime change?

No. We have a long, long history of doing so through the CIA and other means.



Should we just come clean and let the World know what we want and why?

Yes, we should. No reason to keep these desires secret.

We want the ME stable. We want Iran not to see the US as an enemy and to stop sponsoring terrorism if they are doing so. We don't want them to get the bomb, because we don't trust radical Islamic factions. Radical Islamic factions are really not true Islam or Muslims, just like war-mongering Neocons are not true Christians.
corniss chopper

Mountain climber
san jose, ca
Nov 28, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
Where has Susan Rice, our UN ambassador, been the last 2 years?

http://biggovernment.com/rgrenell/2010/01/22/where-has-susan-rice-our-un-ambassador-been-this-past-year/


..she has nevertheless been absent at many crucial Security Council meetings in New York during some of the world body’s most turbulent times. Rice was even missing from this week’s Security Council debate and vote to add new Peacekeepers to a beleaguered UN operation in Haiti. According to several UN veteran reporters and some US Mission staff, Rice has been missing from crucial negotiations on Iran too. They say that when Rice does attend UN negotiations, she is all too willing to avoid confrontation.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Nov 28, 2010 - 04:30pm PT
State's Secrets: A cache of diplomatic cables provide a chronicle of the United States' relations with the world.

About the Documents
A mammoth cache of a quarter-million confidential American diplomatic cables, most of them from the last three years, provides an unprecedented look at bargaining by embassies, candid views of foreign leaders and assessments of threats. The material was obtained by WikiLeaks and made available to a number of news organizations in advance.


http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/world/statessecrets.html
tom woods

Gym climber
Bishop, CA
Nov 28, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
So is Iran, Fatty. Intentionally or not, Iran and the US are now partners in Iraq, the middle east and Afghanistan.

That's what's so fun about the Wikileaks, they show what some important people actually think, beyond the press releases, and public information officers.

Foreign policy is domestic policy, fatty.



Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 28, 2010 - 07:13pm PT
This is not good. This causes damage to our country.

Think of it like this:

you are going in to a car lot, to buy a car. However, before you set foot on the lot, the salesman knows:

1. you don't come in unless you REALLY want a particular car.
2. that you always offer 25% less than you are really willing to pay.
3. that you are impatient to do a deal, and the longer that things drag out, the more you are willing to give.

Guess what is going to happen when you negotiate?

Diplomacy is the all about negotiating. Think about playing poker, when the other guy knows your hand.

This reveals methods. This reveals specifics.

How much ammo do we typically supply with an army base? How do we typically guard it? How do we guard our diplomats against kidnapping?

This is not good. You cannot be in favor of this stuff leaking, unless you don't mind damage to the country.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Nov 28, 2010 - 07:46pm PT
^^^^^^^^The above is bunk.^^^^^^^^^


I'm re-posting this . . .



A Note to Readers: The Decision to Publish Diplomatic Documents
Published: November 28, 2010
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/29/world/29editornote.html?_r=1

The articles published today and in coming days are based on thousands of United States embassy cables, the daily reports from the field intended for the eyes of senior policy makers in Washington. The New York Times and a number of publications in Europe were given access to the material several weeks ago and agreed to begin publication of articles based on the cables Sunday online. The Times believes that the documents serve an important public interest, illuminating the goals, successes, compromises and frustrations of American diplomacy in a way that other accounts cannot match.






White House condemns latest WikiLeaks release (updated)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x535249





I'm in agreement with the NY Times.

Sorry, White House. Truth and openness are great disinfectants. It is time our government does the will of the people. Out the corruption and lies.





It's about honesty. You don't negotiate by lying.
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Nov 28, 2010 - 07:56pm PT
And Klimmer has never bought a car! All the NY Times said is that this is interesting stuff.

I am guessing that you are in favor of the US Military posting online its plans for the upcoming day, so we Americans can see that they are making the right decisions. And NFL teams should publish their play books before the game so that the commentators will be well informed—these should also be put onto the big screen in real time so that all the player and audience can see what will happen next, to better evaluate the coaches' decisions.

For sure you are the sort of person who cannot wait to embarrass a friend in public by repeating something told to you in confidence. It is so refreshing and good for communication. Openness! By the way, this was the method that Mao used during the Cultural Revolution. Of course, we cannot tell how effective this policy was since the range of the deaths it caused is so wide: 2m to 7m.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Nov 28, 2010 - 08:25pm PT
Once again . . .

It's about honesty. You don't negotiate by lying.


You OK with the US lying to or about our allies? Or making crap up? Or treating other countries like slime?


So far we have Bush lying about Germany's willingness to be involved in Iraq. They were not. They called us on it. We dragged them into it and then lied about it.

So far we know that Hillary Clinton asked our Ambassadors to the UN to spy on everyone and do other illegal acts. Is that what we do at the UN, spy, steal credit card numbers etc. from the other Nation members now? Wow, that is acting in good faith. (sarcasm)

Is that right?


Show me specific damage. Show me how this will hurt America.

It certainly will be embarrassing. Truth happens to work that way. It actually might start making us act like a First World Nation rather than a World bully, and to be honest, and to do the right thing. We should start treating other countries as we like to be treated. The Golden Rule. They would probably reciprocate.

But it is gonna take a long time. We haven't been acting in good faith for a very long time. We are going to have to earn back their trust. We are going to have to make changes for the better.
Mimi

climber
Nov 28, 2010 - 08:41pm PT
I wonder what group will be reviewing those '90,000 incidents' and then declare what's wrong with the war and end it. If the coalition abandons Afghanistan, then what? Will the just and tolerant Taliban take over again and bring peace to the region?

The 'owner' of Leaks is not exactly an honest broker. I doubt his stated motives in the interview posted.
Mimi

climber
Nov 28, 2010 - 08:53pm PT
I didn't say it was about the money or that he simply hates the US government. Do your own homework and don't engage me on here, mmkay?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Nov 28, 2010 - 08:58pm PT
US embassy cables: The job of the media is not to protect the powerful from embarrassment
It is for governments – not journalists – to guard public secrets, and there is no national jeopardy in WikiLeaks' revelations

Simon Jenkins guardian.co.uk, Sunday 28 November 2010 18.30 GMT

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/28/us-embassy-cables-wikileaks?intcmp=239


Is it justified? Should a newspaper disclose virtually all a nation's secret diplomatic communication, illegally downloaded by one of its citizens? The reporting in the Guardian of the first of a selection of 250,000 US state department cables marks a recasting of modern diplomacy. Clearly, there is no longer such a thing as a safe electronic archive, whatever computing's snake-oil salesmen claim. No organisation can treat digitised communication as confidential. An electronic secret is a contradiction in terms.

Anything said or done in the name of a democracy is, prima facie, of public interest. When that democracy purports to be "world policeman" – an assumption that runs ghostlike through these cables – that interest is global. Nonetheless, the Guardian had to consider two things in abetting disclosure, irrespective of what is anyway published by WikiLeaks. It could not be party to putting the lives of individuals or sources at risk, nor reveal material that might compromise ongoing military operations or the location of special forces.

In this light, two backup checks were applied. The US government was told in advance the areas or themes covered, and "representations" were invited in return. These were considered. Details of "redactions" were then shared with the other four media recipients of the material and sent to WikiLeaks itself, to establish, albeit voluntarily, some common standard.

The state department knew of the leak several months ago and had ample time to alert staff in sensitive locations. Its pre-emptive scaremongering over the weekend stupidly contrived to hint at material not in fact being published. Nor is the material classified top secret, being at a level that more than 3 million US government employees are cleared to see, and available on the defence department's internal Siprnet. Such dissemination of "secrets" might be thought reckless, suggesting a diplomatic outreach that makes the British empire seem minuscule.

The revelations do not have the startling, coldblooded immediacy of the WikiLeaks war logs from Iraq and Afghanistan, with their astonishing insight into the minds of fighting men seemingly detached from the ethics of war. The's disclosures are largely of analysis and high-grade gossip. Insofar as they are sensational, it is in showing the corruption and mendacity of those in power, and the mismatch between what they claim and what they do.


more . . .

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 28, 2010 - 09:03pm PT
Was there anything in today's rerlease related to Julian Assange's rape and child molestation allegations?

Or are Assange's secrets off-limits?
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Nov 28, 2010 - 09:08pm PT
Chaz,

Prove it.

Seems the allegations are made-up.

Consensual sex between adults and then the condom broke. I posted a link to this already.

Why are the charges brought up and then quickly dismissed or dropped?

This has happened several times now.

Seems like they are fishing.
Roger Breedlove

climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Nov 28, 2010 - 09:12pm PT
Here are some interesting bits Klimmer of revealed backroom dealing that when revealed in public makes for a better life for all.

In light of our new resolve to only have honest and public discussions, we are going to embarrass as many other governments as we can. If honesty is the best policy for America, it is the best policy for everyone else. And as Americans we own to the rest of the world that they do as we do. The important thing is that our elected leaders and their appointed cabinet heads are not allowed to distill or place judgment on any ideas or comments made by their staff. It is just not right that anyone is in charge!

A summary of a meeting on April 20, 2008, between U.S. officials and Saudi King Abdullah noted the king's frequent exhortations to the U.S. to attack Iran and put an end to its nuclear weapons program.

According to Der Spiegel, a cable characterized Afghan President Hamid Karzai with having a "weak personality" who was "driven by paranoia" and "conspiracy theories."

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev was termed "pale, hesitant," while German Chancellor Angela Merkel "avoids risk, not very creative." Another referred to Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin as an "alpha dog."

US diplomats in Rome reported in 2009 that Putin has an extraordinarily close relationship with Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi that included "lavish gifts" and energy contracts. They further said that Berlusconi was increasingly becoming the "mouthpiece of Putin" in Europe. I just love it when the State Department takes on the color of an English newspaper.

Of course this is all true so we don’t have to worry about reporting it: it came from the State Department. And we all just know, in our hearts that Berlusconi is a crook and has somehow managed to corrupt Putin.

God knows how we are going to sort this one out, since our President made a very public statement about Putin. “I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straight forward and trustworthy…” was Bush’s assessment when he met him for the first time. "I was able to get a sense of his soul," Bush said, revealing his method and sources. But I am not worried: I vote for Klimmer to tell us which of these two conflicting stories we should believe.

Someone in the State Department described German Chancellor Angela Merkel as a weak leader: "risk averse and rarely creative" “The Americans argue that the chancellor views international diplomacy above all from the perspective of how she can profit from it domestically," the Die Spiegel wrote.

This will certainly be helpful to her political opponents in Germany. Of course, as Americans we have every right to interfere in the politics of our allies. And I am not worried one bit becuase what is good for America is good for Germany.




This is a good, quick summary from the NYTImes. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/29/world/29cables.html?pagewanted=all
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Nov 28, 2010 - 09:22pm PT
I vote for Klimmer to tell us which of these two conflicting stories we should believe.


Roger,

Try not to make this about me or anyone else here on ST.

This is about what Wikileaks has done. I agree with it. You don't.

. . . it is in showing the corruption and mendacity of those in power, and the mismatch between what they claim and what they do.


I think it can be a very good thing. Honesty. Stop the lies etc.

You obviously don't agree. That is your opinion. You are entitled to it.

Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Nov 28, 2010 - 09:38pm PT
Official Washington Worries WikiLeak Will Reveal Inconsistent Approach to Terror
John Nichols
November 26, 2010
http://www.thenation.com/blog/156684/official-washington-worries-wikileak-will-reveal-inconsistent-approach-terror


WikiLeaks is tweeting that officials in Washington are "hyperventilating again over fears of being held to account."

That's not hype. They really are worried this time.

Why so? Because this release of documents could pull back the curtain on how the United States practices international diplomacy.

To understand why this matters, consider two related realities:

1. Many, if not all, of the US officials who deal on the international stage tend to like secrecy, as it allows them to play by different rules when dealing with countries that are deemed "allies" or "rogues." In other words, despite the blunt official talk about how the "war of terror" is a universal endeavor, the United States sometimes casts a blind eye toward—or even works with—groups that are identified as practicing terrorism.

2. These powerful players often feel threatened by transparency, as it reveals when they are allow allied states to act like rogue states. This gets especially messy when "friendly" governments are allowed to get away with actions that the U.S. otherwise identifies as being so serious that might justify economic sanctions or even a military response.

Understand these facts and you will understand why official Washington is worried by this particular WikiLeak.

Reportedly, the next leak—which could come this weekend—will include "hundreds of thousands of classified State cables that detail private diplomatic discussions with other governments, potentially compromising discussions with dissidents, and even, reportedly, corruption allegations against foreign governments."

Among other things, international press accounts suggest, the new WikiLeak will include a military report revealing that the US officials were aware that the Turkish government allowed its citizens to aid Al Qaeda in Iraq. An additional document will, according to London's Al-Hayat newspaper, reveal that the U.S. aided Kurdish separatist rebels whose group, the PKK, is listed by the State Department as a foreign terrorist organization.

Turkey is a complex country located at a critical crossroads for the United States. It is no secret that U.S. officials have always applied different sets of rules when dealing with it.

The problem is that the public revelation of the differences between US treatment of Turkey and, say, Iran, could be more than embarrassing. It could call into question whether US officials are consistent in their condemnation of terrorism and of countries that condone terrorism.

Of course, that's not what State Department officials are saying publicly.

They're talking about protecting diplomatic secrecy.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
Nov 28, 2010 - 09:40pm PT
Hahaha, I knew it- that eventually this thread would attract a certain "voluminous" personality.
Mimi

climber
Nov 28, 2010 - 09:52pm PT
Having diplomatic laundry blown to the winds is a good thing for any government? Exposing private communications between diplomats is a good thing?

Let's see all emails and scanned writings of everyone. That will help the world be a better place.

I remain skeptical of any honorable motive for this particular outing. And will wait to see what positive gains come of it. This is beyond tabloid.
bluering

Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
Nov 28, 2010 - 10:04pm PT
You read the WND?

You don't? I thought it was mainstrean now. They ARE in the White House Press Corpse (spelling intentional).

But I tend to agree with Mimi's POV on this issue.
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