CA Needles History - Chris St Croix

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Fat Dad

Trad climber

Los Angeles, CA

Nov 17, 2010 - 03:40pm PT

Levy,

I totally agree about the old bolts. I remember Andre (Nabolsi) telling me how bad the bolts on the Duldrills were when they were first put in. I can't imagine how bad they must be now. As for the new stuff, if there's anybody who would less about that than me, I don't know who it would be. I saw Vaino Kodas dinking around about a dozen years ago, maybe longer, but little else. Just curious is all.

Ksolem

Trad climber

Monrovia, California

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2010 - 04:50pm PT

I suppose this means the cat is officially out of the bag, not that I’ve been trying to keep it a secret with the amount of time I’ve spent there the last two summers and the number of people I’ve talked to.

The Sally Moser, Greg Vernon and Patrick Paul book was published in 1992, so yes there has been a significant amount of route development since then. Off the top of my head I can think of 12 great new lines just on The Charlatan and Sorcerer. Most of the new lines are excellent quality, high standard climbs which will appeal to the caliber of climbers who visit The Needles from around the world these days.

Also, anyone who has looked through the copy of the Moser guide which was kept at The Ponderosa and annotated over the years by climbers will have seen the large number of corrections which needed to be made in that book. I do not fault the authors in any way; The Needles is a very difficult area to document. But over the years since that book was done the corrections have been catalogued. I have a barely readable photocopy of that Ponderosa guide (the original has disappeared,) a copy of the book Margee keeps at the lookout (a goldmine) and copies of books and notes kept by Needles regulars who have been kind and generous in their support.

Of course there are online sources for some route info. These sources are of value to climbers and it is typical these days to see climbers in camp poring over printouts of Clint Cummins well done topos. Of course these sites do not include many of the newer lines, and more importantly do not serve as an historical record. Also many of the glitches from the old book live on via these sites.

Getting a current and accurate Needles guide done has proved to be something of a minefield. Over the last few years at least two teams who could have done a fine job threw in the towel for various reasons. I gave the idea some thought, and made a few discreet inquiries. When Kevin Daniels heard I was interested he called me and offered to work with me, and also to publish the book. I have known Kevin a long time, between us we probably have 45 years climbing in The Needles, and the books he is publishing are very high quality (his most recent is Bob D’Antonio’s Shelf Road book.)

Another aspect of the project is bolt and anchor replacement. Literally dozens of the best routes, many of which were first done in the late 70’s and early 80’s are still equipped with the original ¼” x 1” buttonhead bolts and so are not really safe to climb anymore. I can say with certainty that many of the bolts I have removed over the last two summers would not have held the fall they would potentially be subjected to. We want to call attention to many of these routes, The Force and Magnum force, Liquid Sky, West Side Story, Double Trouble and Duty Now For The Future are a few which come to mind, but these are bold routes and the 25 – 30 year old bolts are no longer up to snuff.

I think I can speak for Kevin as well, that our purpose in doing this guide book is twofold. One is to create an accurate historical record. I am gathering all sorts of new information in this regard and there will be some interesting surprises in this book. The other is to reveal to climbers the many fantastic climbs which are unknown or unclimbed for the most part. There is a lot of adventure to be had in The Needles, but today most climbers head for the same dozen or so routes. Yeah, we’ll sell a few copies too. But we’re not going to make any best seller lists, and the amount of time, money, sweat and even blood which I have put into this thing will never be remade in $.

Finally, this will be a guidebook, not a beta book. There will be good route descriptions, lots of color photos, some topos where needed, descent info etc. Please don’t expect exact gear lists for every pitch. The Needles is a heads up area which requires self-sufficient climbers who can size up a route and take it on safely. Of course we’ll give some suggestions here and there when called for.

To those who are concerned that a new book will result in a large increase in traffic, we have thought about this and don’t think it will other than perhaps a bump at first (a lot of climbers go there once, never to return, and I suppose there will be some of that.) I have spent a total of at least 4 months camped there over the past two summers and have a very clear picture of who comes there. These climbers, a cross section of regulars mostly from CA, and many top climbers from the US, Canada, UK and Europe are not deterred by the lack of a guide. They gather their info any way they can and show up. The new book will only improve their experience, instill a sense of the rich history of the place, and show the way to an array of climbs they likely would have not seen otherwise.
Sorry for the wordy post. I just started typing and…

edit: Dulldrills and Lumpy The Fish are new as of summer 09. Thanks to ASCA for the materials.

curt wohlgemuth

Social climber

Bay Area, California

Nov 17, 2010 - 06:21pm PT

A new guidebook, with good accurate photos, would be awesome. (I *love* the photos in Jerry Handren's Red Rocks guide; they're pretty *and* they really help find routes!)

But I'll always have a soft place in my heart for the quirky Moser et al. guide, even as frustrating as it is sometimes. "Please pick up any trash you may find; leave the area cleaner than you found it!"

And big thanks for any rebolting you do there too!

Josh Higgins

Trad climber

San Diego

Nov 17, 2010 - 06:50pm PT

Ksolem,

Mind if I ask a few questions?

What is the route to the right of Wicked West of the Witch? I tried that, thinking I was on WWotW and holy sh#t was that scary! Is it a completed route? I almost got blown off by a gust of wind which would have resulted in a 60+' fall. I finally downclimbed outta there and lowered off a medium old bolt. The line had two bolts, one a crappy old 1/4" bolt and above one of those old aluminum hanger looking things which hadn't rusted yet. (By the way, I'm no bolt expert so I could be wrong).

How are the last two pitches of Nautilus? I've heard of a broken bolt(s?) and that it's really dangerous. I tried the first pitch, which was both amazing and amazingly hard, and then just rappeled due to rumors I had heard. Are they total death pitches? I've never met someone who has climbed that route. I thought the first pitch felt as hard as Pyromania, but I sent Pyro when I was strong and tried Nautilus when I was weak. Still, the old guide says mid 5.12 and I think I'd disagree and give that a plus...

I found a GPS sitting out there YEARS ago, and found the owner I think through Supertopo. I returned the GPS to the owner. He mentioned he was working on a guide book. His initials were PP. Are you by any chance working with him? Just curiosity...

Josh

Ksolem

Trad climber

Monrovia, California

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2010 - 06:52pm PT

Handren's RR guide is beautifully produced. He raised the bar with that one!

Regarding bolt replacement we all owe a debt of gratitude to the ASCA and Greg Barnes. I sent Greg a list of the routes in The Needles which need work, and the number of bolts, anchors etc. it would take. I was hoping maybe he could provide some portion of the materials. What I recieved, express mail since I was leaving to get started in a few days, was every bolt I listed, all the nice Fixe ring anchors I would need, a supply of 3/8" and 1/2" sds bits to wear out and a tube of instacrete to patch holes!

This organization deserves our support.

Ksolem

Trad climber

Monrovia, California

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2010 - 07:00pm PT

Hi Josh,

Sounds like you were actually on Wicked West - it goes way right of where the green book shows, and it is easy to miss the third bolt. There is nothing I know of between WW and Terrorvision.

Kevin Daniels did Nautilus and fixed the bolts. I think he said he left one old one but there is gear to back that one up. Should be good to go now.

PP = Patrick Paul. Patrick is an old friend and prolific climber. He is no longer working on a book and has been very supportive and helpful in Kevin's and my effort.

Josh Higgins

Trad climber

San Diego

Nov 17, 2010 - 07:58pm PT

Ksolem,

Thanks for the reply. I'm stoked on Nautilus then! It's a goal for next season. I'll have to train hard though. It's a wicked cool line.

There was most definitely a line between WWotW and Terrorvision. I did TV that day, the first pitch of Nautilus, then started up WWotW and clipped the first bolt. I didn't see bolts above so I (incorrectly) unclipped the first bolt on WWotW and moved to another line out right that had two bolts. It was definitely NOT WWotW as shown in the old printed guide since that's one of the few routes in the guide that has a good photograph of that section and I was way out right (I looked it up later). The runout above the last bolt was about 20' on easy territory, then the holds thinned over a short bulge that I couldn't safely get past. Anyways, just a heads up on another route (or partial route?) out there!

PP told me he'd give me a copy of his new guide when he completed it for returning his GPS. Oh well... I'm still glad he got the GPS back!

Josh

Fat Dad

Trad climber

Los Angeles, CA

Nov 17, 2010 - 08:01pm PT

I agree that a new guide probably won't make that much of a different over the long run. The area is kind of like the Cookie or Arch Rock in that you need a certain skill set that keeps many away from most of the routes. I look forward to checking out the guide when it comes out.

Levy

Big Wall climber

So Cal

Nov 17, 2010 - 08:05pm PT

Josh- the old book incorrectly shows Wicked West Of the Witch. It is to the right of where the Vernon book shows it going. Kris is correct, I think you got on W W O T W but it goes way up & left after the third bolt. I recall the belay anchors were hard to find. Nice job doing Terrorvision, how were the bolts?

Regarding the Nautilus - Dale Bard visited with Bob Harrington some years back & they got on it. Dale told me it was the hardest thing he's ever tried. I know it recieved a repeat ascent from Tom Gilje & Mike Lechlinski back in the day. They said it was hard as well. There are some bolts to bypass a loose flake dubbed the "sea serpent" in the middle. I think the last 35' are really tough too. There was some kind of shennagins on that last bit.

Rockin' Gal

Trad climber

Boulder

Nov 18, 2010 - 04:43pm PT

Kris,
I'm glad you're giving the Needles an update. BITD people said the same thing about the increased traffic. It really won't happen due to the location and approach hikes. Still an adventure area and will be.
Twenty years ago, there was a dearth of information available on the area. Greg accumulated everything he could find, took the pictures and handed it to me. I compiled and edited it, literally drawing topos from napkins and paper bags.
My goal was to give people enough information so they could find the climb and not get in trouble. If two topos of the same route differed on the number of bolts, I used the lesser number. I figured a climber would be better off to find an extra bolt than to not find one at all. I had a discussion with George Meyers about this same issue. In his case, people would omit a pitch on an El Cap topo.
I sent around copies to the climbers-that-be and I think one person responded. So, you do the best you can with what you've got. And, you definitely don't write guidebooks for the money.
Sally

Slater

Trad climber

Central Coast

Nov 18, 2010 - 04:57pm PT

Kris, let me know if you need any help with it. Great task ahead of you! Go man go! Are you doing the design work? You helped me, so I'll return the favor any way I can.

Ksolem

Trad climber

Monrovia, California

Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2010 - 05:40pm PT

Sally, Thanks for your comments! I have your trio of books on the table in front of me. They are well worn and treasured.

The Needles, Seqouia and Kings Canyon, Domelands. A lot of wild times in high places!

Tom, I'll email you with some questions along the way. Thanks!

Josh Higgins

Trad climber

San Diego

Nov 18, 2010 - 06:27pm PT

Levy,

Thanks for the clarification. The bolts on Terrorvision were fine. That's a spectacular route, to say the least!

Josh

Impaler

Gym climber

Vancouver

Nov 18, 2010 - 07:32pm PT

Kris,

Thanks a lot for doing that! Needles really need a new guidebook. I started climbing there well after the old guidebook was out of print, so I was one of those peoples with Clint's topo printouts from the internets. Needles have some of the best granite on the planet and it would be awesome to have more information about newer routes as well as some of the less-traveled lines!

Another huge thanks for replacing old bolts!

Vlad

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Nov 19, 2010 - 11:45am PT

Does the original guide have a history section that somebody would be willing to scan and post? I don't have this guidebook in the library.

climber

Nov 19, 2010 - 11:53am PT

Steve,
No, the original guide did not address the historical issues.

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Nov 19, 2010 - 11:55am PT

Thanks- I am glad that this upcoming guide/history is going to. No time like the present...

Murf

climber

Nov 19, 2010 - 12:03pm PT

I think there's a pretty good description (at least, I think its good) of WWotW on mp.com http://mountainproject.com/v/california/the_needles__kern_river/the_needles/106831091.

Like Levy mentions, I think Josh was on-route. I've heard another story of a local (Carson?) going up just after it was put up who also continued straight up after the third bolt. Obviously there wasn't a belay and they just stanced it and brought their partner up (fourth-hand from Levy or Lechlinski)?

Looking forward to the guide Kris, thanks for the hard work!

Murf

climber

Nov 24, 2010 - 01:59pm PT

Here's an anecdote of Needles' History that I have had posted on my website vertical20.com for some time:

"The Guide Says It's Only 5.9?"
Reprinted from the Western Mountaineering Newsletter, circa 1986
by Todd Vogel

I was completely tangled in a climber trap of manzanita and mountain laurel with some other strange scrub thrown in. It was an Alpine Jungle, rating at least T-3+ on the bushwhack rating scale. The bushwhack rating scale parallels the aid climbing scale; T-1 is the easiest and T-5 the hardest. T-3, by definition, means all hands and feet are off the ground, but chances of a fall are minimal. We were on our third hour of a "45 minute" approach. I could hear my partner's curses, but could not see him as he avoided a short cliff by the only possible method: down climbing a tree. I reminded myself that we were here to climb rocks, not trees. Finally, we met at the base of the route. We both suggested simultaneously that there might have been an easier approach.

Climbing at the Needles is strange. First, you crank out the 2.5-mile pre-approach, and then you do the approach. The first hike allows plenty of time for "karma-ponderation." "Oh, no! Did you see that dead mouse? Let's go bouldering instead! Or fishing..." Inevitably we ended up at the base of some radical looking route. I have yet to figure out if the climbs in the Needles are under rated or if the approach just takes one grades worth of ability out of the prospective rock lemming. Whatever it is, "The guide says it's only 5.9!" was the 2nd most common sentence of our trip. The first was, "Waah!"

The rudimentary guide contributes to the uniqueness of Needles climbing. The book helps one find the start of the climb, but if more info is desired, it is found on the route. There is little or no info as to what sort of rack to carry, the nature of the climbing (crack, face, or?), where the crux is, or where the belays are. A typical description may be, "The 'S' Crack, 5.9, 9 pitches." A simple sketch showing the start relative to the main features is also included.

We saw "The 'S' Crack" in the book and immediately decided it was the route to do. Saying, "It is only 5.9, we'll flash it!" was our first mistake; the second was starting at noon. I was thinking about that dead mouse on the trail. The approach must have made me exceptionally tired because four hard pitches up I decided 5.9 at the Needles only means there probably won't be much 5.11+ on the route. The fifth pitch was mine and it made me wonder where the crux was or was going to be. Strange is the life of the rock lemming. I was doing all this wondering because I couldn't move. I was in a 5.9+ doublewaahsqueezechimney. One of those chimneys where you can't move your head and falling isn't the problem, suffocation is. The wind carried up a yell from my partner, "The guide says it's only 5.9!" "Waaaaah," I grunted back; it cost me three inches of movement too.

With one pitch left, it looked like rain, but it felt like snow. Because of anticipated rate of ascent, we hadn't worn enough clothes and for most of the climb we'd been swapping a windbreaker at the belays. Now we just wanted off (OFFOFFOFF!). Rather than summiting, we traversed to the rappel/descent route. The epic was over---all we had to do was hike three miles back to Shangri-la, bean burritos and a tent, alas! No beer!

Back at camp, safe and stomach full, we decided that it had been one of our best days of climbing in a long time. If the guide had a complete route description or if it had hinted about that chimney, I doubt we'd have done the climb. But our experience was all the better because of the sparse information. I hope that any subsequent Needles' guides show the way to the base as "well" as the present book, maintaining the tradition of being able to climb as if the route was being done for the first time. Besides, as old Ellsworth Kolb has noted, ..."too much information would spoil the romance of such an adventure."