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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 11, 2010 - 09:26pm PT
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Lately I’ve been on a quest for information about the early days of climbing at The Needles, the California ones that is. I’m looking for anything I can find which predates the well documented ascents of Sidewalk Magic by Dan McHale and Joe Brown in 1969, the South Face of The Hermit by McHale and Becky the same year and the South Face of The Warlock by McHale, Becky and Heath in 1970.
So the other day I was hanging out at The Ponderosa Lodge chatting with retired Tulare Sherriff Dale Doty. Sherriff Doty told me that he had climbed some in “The Needlerock” around 1965, and that a fellow named Chris St. Croix was climbing there then and giving climbing classes. Sherriff Doty went on to say “there were no more than 15 routes out there then.” That sounds like a lot to me.
(I have also been told that spec ops forces came up from China Lake to train there before then...)
He also said that Mr. St. Croix had a sporting goods and gear shop in Visalia at the time. So my question for the forum is does anyone know or know of Mr. St. Croix? If you have some info you don’t want to put on the public forum, please be so kind as to email me via my profile here.
Thanks one and all,
Kris Solem
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2010 - 12:48am PT
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Bump with eye candy....
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ec
climber
ca
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Nov 12, 2010 - 12:56am PT
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'met Chis once. I think he is the same guy who reportedly got bedsores belaying Porter on Tangerine Trip. I think David Hickey (D H) may know how to contact him. David posts here on occasion.
 ec
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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Nov 12, 2010 - 01:49am PT
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Chris used to own an outdoor store in Visalia called "The Rucksack" some years back....80's. His brother joined him in the store later. JP was on the first ascent of Tangerine Trip with Charlie Porter. I bought some of Chris's climbing gear way back and it was vintage then. He told of climbing out at the Castle Rocks, doing the first ascent of the North Face of the Fin and tales from the Needles. Don't know what happened to him since the early ninties. His brother JP moved to Virginia Beach in the late nineties.
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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Nov 12, 2010 - 02:06am PT
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Bump
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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Thanks everyone!
I've followed up on all your leads plus some I got via email...
I'm going to sleuth this one out for sure.
Here's a view I had to work for:
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ec
climber
ca
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Nov 12, 2010 - 03:06pm PT
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Nice! The first time I climbed the Magician we did it from the true bottom of the thing. I recall the view.
ec
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Nov 12, 2010 - 05:34pm PT
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Sigh...summer is very far away.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2010 - 06:28pm PT
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Sigh...summer is very far away.
NWS for Ponderosa, CA.
11-13 / 11-18-2010
Perfect weather for those Dome Rock testpiece face climbs. It doesn' get any better than this. Just sayin'...
Saturday: Sunny, with a high near 51. Northeast wind 5 to 8 mph becoming west southwest.
Saturday Night: Clear, with a low around 28. Northeast wind between 5 and 8 mph.
Sunday: Sunny, with a high near 53. Northeast wind 7 to 9 mph becoming west southwest.
Sunday Night: Mostly clear, with a low around 31. Calm wind becoming east northeast between 6 and 9 mph.
Monday: Sunny, with a high near 57.
Monday Night: Clear, with a low around 32.
Tuesday: Sunny, with a high near 54.
Tuesday Night: Clear, with a low around 32.
Wednesday: Sunny, with a high near 54.
Wednesday Night: Mostly clear, with a low around 31.
Thursday: Sunny, with a high near 51.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 12, 2010 - 11:04pm PT
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bump with a new photo.
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ec
climber
ca
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Nov 14, 2010 - 11:34am PT
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Yeah!
That just made a great desktop pic @ work...
Now I recall meeting Chris and JP at different times, decades apart.
ec
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Nov 14, 2010 - 11:53am PT
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Ks,
RR and I went up there about January/February of 1971. The Needles were supposed to be a “secret area” maybe of Chouinard. The trip was part of a week-long tour mostly all about avoiding weather that nonetheless was chasing us all the way down to Idyllwild and JT and then all the way past the Needles to Calaveras Dome. I remember mostly hiking to the base of the Open Book (Tahquitz) with a foot of snow on the trail, only the first 75 feet visible of the much-fabled cliff. We only escaped the storms when we went out wandering past Kelso, Kelbaker Road and that area trying to find what RR thought was yet another YC secret area, Granite Mountain etc. It was also about RR sorting stuff out in his head back then.
Anyway, at that time, Royal thought that YC had been up there to the Needles a little recently but that Beckey had been there in the sixties. We didn’t even get out of the van; although totally impressed with the possibilities, it was raining and I had flu. We never went back.
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Rockin' Gal
Trad climber
Boulder
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Nov 15, 2010 - 02:30pm PT
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Kris,
When's that new guidebook coming out? People keep asking me!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
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Peter - Thanks. I'm going to attempt to email you via the site here with a question...
The first documented ascent, for which I have seen contemporaneous notes and photographs was in 1969 when Dan McHale (then of LA, now making his fabulous McHale packs in Seattle) and "The American" Joe Brown (also of LA)Climbed the spine of the formation with the lookout. This had been called "The Whale's Back" but McHale called The Magician and that stuck. They called their route Sidewalk Magic. Then in November 69 McHale and Becky did the classic South Face of Hermit Spire, visible from the Needles trail to the north on Fish Creek Ridge. In 1970 Beckey, Mchale and Mike Heath did the South Face of The Warlock. According to McHale it was Becky and Heath who came up with most of the formation’s names, Witch, Sorcerer, Warlock etc…
I’ve heard many interesting tales, mostly over beers at The Ponderosa, about earlier activities there including winter training exercises for spec ops forces for work in high mountain ranges.
Rockin Gal.. We’re working on it hard. Quality on this project is job one, so it is taking some time so don’t hold yer breath but it'll get out before long. A big part of the picture, which adds tremendously to the scope of the project, is anchor and bolt replacement. Many of the great classics there – routes which should be on any good climber's list – are really not safe anymore and I cannot recommend them without first restoring them.
EC, If you liked that pic try this one. Too bad I wasn’t recording sound…
(I’ve posted it before but if you like Needles flyby’s have at it.)
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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Nov 17, 2010 - 12:57pm PT
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Bump for more info to appear somehow.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
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You're working on a new guide? I guess that's pretty inevitable.
I know a few new things have been put up since the Moser guide, but is there that much new content, or just updating the older stuff?
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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Nov 17, 2010 - 03:25pm PT
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Fatty - Many new routes have been done at the Needles since the Vernon/ Moser/ Paul guide was published. Routes such as: Tradewinds, Red Dog & Salsa, Goosebumps, Cookies On Sunday, Groovalistic & more have been done. Besides the old book has many errors. Ankles Away was rated 5.12b but it is only 5.11c.
The bolt replacement Kris speaks of is really needed. When I did Liquid Sky, on the Magician, the bolts were horrifying to just look at. One of the belays are two 1/4" bolts 10 or 12 feet apart from each other on a ramp. Terrorvision has a bolt so loose you can pull it out of its hole by hand. Dulldrills has at least two bolts that were only drilled for half their length and stick out far from the rock. Replacing these 25+ year old bolts is very much needes before somebody has an epic up there.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Nov 17, 2010 - 03:32pm PT
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Wow, that last photo is way rad! Thanks for posting that!
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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Nov 17, 2010 - 03:35pm PT
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Hoping to climb here next summer ! Love the stories too.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 03:40pm PT
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Levy,
I totally agree about the old bolts. I remember Andre (Nabolsi) telling me how bad the bolts on the Duldrills were when they were first put in. I can't imagine how bad they must be now. As for the new stuff, if there's anybody who would less about that than me, I don't know who it would be. I saw Vaino Kodas dinking around about a dozen years ago, maybe longer, but little else. Just curious is all.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
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I suppose this means the cat is officially out of the bag, not that I’ve been trying to keep it a secret with the amount of time I’ve spent there the last two summers and the number of people I’ve talked to.
The Sally Moser, Greg Vernon and Patrick Paul book was published in 1992, so yes there has been a significant amount of route development since then. Off the top of my head I can think of 12 great new lines just on The Charlatan and Sorcerer. Most of the new lines are excellent quality, high standard climbs which will appeal to the caliber of climbers who visit The Needles from around the world these days.
Also, anyone who has looked through the copy of the Moser guide which was kept at The Ponderosa and annotated over the years by climbers will have seen the large number of corrections which needed to be made in that book. I do not fault the authors in any way; The Needles is a very difficult area to document. But over the years since that book was done the corrections have been catalogued. I have a barely readable photocopy of that Ponderosa guide (the original has disappeared,) a copy of the book Margee keeps at the lookout (a goldmine) and copies of books and notes kept by Needles regulars who have been kind and generous in their support.
Of course there are online sources for some route info. These sources are of value to climbers and it is typical these days to see climbers in camp poring over printouts of Clint Cummins well done topos. Of course these sites do not include many of the newer lines, and more importantly do not serve as an historical record. Also many of the glitches from the old book live on via these sites.
Getting a current and accurate Needles guide done has proved to be something of a minefield. Over the last few years at least two teams who could have done a fine job threw in the towel for various reasons. I gave the idea some thought, and made a few discreet inquiries. When Kevin Daniels heard I was interested he called me and offered to work with me, and also to publish the book. I have known Kevin a long time, between us we probably have 45 years climbing in The Needles, and the books he is publishing are very high quality (his most recent is Bob D’Antonio’s Shelf Road book.)
Another aspect of the project is bolt and anchor replacement. Literally dozens of the best routes, many of which were first done in the late 70’s and early 80’s are still equipped with the original ¼” x 1” buttonhead bolts and so are not really safe to climb anymore. I can say with certainty that many of the bolts I have removed over the last two summers would not have held the fall they would potentially be subjected to. We want to call attention to many of these routes, The Force and Magnum force, Liquid Sky, West Side Story, Double Trouble and Duty Now For The Future are a few which come to mind, but these are bold routes and the 25 – 30 year old bolts are no longer up to snuff.
I think I can speak for Kevin as well, that our purpose in doing this guide book is twofold. One is to create an accurate historical record. I am gathering all sorts of new information in this regard and there will be some interesting surprises in this book. The other is to reveal to climbers the many fantastic climbs which are unknown or unclimbed for the most part. There is a lot of adventure to be had in The Needles, but today most climbers head for the same dozen or so routes. Yeah, we’ll sell a few copies too. But we’re not going to make any best seller lists, and the amount of time, money, sweat and even blood which I have put into this thing will never be remade in $.
Finally, this will be a guidebook, not a beta book. There will be good route descriptions, lots of color photos, some topos where needed, descent info etc. Please don’t expect exact gear lists for every pitch. The Needles is a heads up area which requires self-sufficient climbers who can size up a route and take it on safely. Of course we’ll give some suggestions here and there when called for.
To those who are concerned that a new book will result in a large increase in traffic, we have thought about this and don’t think it will other than perhaps a bump at first (a lot of climbers go there once, never to return, and I suppose there will be some of that.) I have spent a total of at least 4 months camped there over the past two summers and have a very clear picture of who comes there. These climbers, a cross section of regulars mostly from CA, and many top climbers from the US, Canada, UK and Europe are not deterred by the lack of a guide. They gather their info any way they can and show up. The new book will only improve their experience, instill a sense of the rich history of the place, and show the way to an array of climbs they likely would have not seen otherwise.
Sorry for the wordy post. I just started typing and…
edit: Dulldrills and Lumpy The Fish are new as of summer 09. Thanks to ASCA for the materials.
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curt wohlgemuth
Social climber
Bay Area, California
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Nov 17, 2010 - 06:21pm PT
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A new guidebook, with good accurate photos, would be awesome. (I *love* the photos in Jerry Handren's Red Rocks guide; they're pretty *and* they really help find routes!)
But I'll always have a soft place in my heart for the quirky Moser et al. guide, even as frustrating as it is sometimes. "Please pick up any trash you may find; leave the area cleaner than you found it!"
And big thanks for any rebolting you do there too!
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Nov 17, 2010 - 06:50pm PT
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Ksolem,
Mind if I ask a few questions?
What is the route to the right of Wicked West of the Witch? I tried that, thinking I was on WWotW and holy sh#t was that scary! Is it a completed route? I almost got blown off by a gust of wind which would have resulted in a 60+' fall. I finally downclimbed outta there and lowered off a medium old bolt. The line had two bolts, one a crappy old 1/4" bolt and above one of those old aluminum hanger looking things which hadn't rusted yet. (By the way, I'm no bolt expert so I could be wrong).
How are the last two pitches of Nautilus? I've heard of a broken bolt(s?) and that it's really dangerous. I tried the first pitch, which was both amazing and amazingly hard, and then just rappeled due to rumors I had heard. Are they total death pitches? I've never met someone who has climbed that route. I thought the first pitch felt as hard as Pyromania, but I sent Pyro when I was strong and tried Nautilus when I was weak. Still, the old guide says mid 5.12 and I think I'd disagree and give that a plus...
I found a GPS sitting out there YEARS ago, and found the owner I think through Supertopo. I returned the GPS to the owner. He mentioned he was working on a guide book. His initials were PP. Are you by any chance working with him? Just curiosity...
Josh
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2010 - 06:52pm PT
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Handren's RR guide is beautifully produced. He raised the bar with that one!
Regarding bolt replacement we all owe a debt of gratitude to the ASCA and Greg Barnes. I sent Greg a list of the routes in The Needles which need work, and the number of bolts, anchors etc. it would take. I was hoping maybe he could provide some portion of the materials. What I recieved, express mail since I was leaving to get started in a few days, was every bolt I listed, all the nice Fixe ring anchors I would need, a supply of 3/8" and 1/2" sds bits to wear out and a tube of instacrete to patch holes!
This organization deserves our support.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2010 - 07:00pm PT
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Hi Josh,
Sounds like you were actually on Wicked West - it goes way right of where the green book shows, and it is easy to miss the third bolt. There is nothing I know of between WW and Terrorvision.
Kevin Daniels did Nautilus and fixed the bolts. I think he said he left one old one but there is gear to back that one up. Should be good to go now.
PP = Patrick Paul. Patrick is an old friend and prolific climber. He is no longer working on a book and has been very supportive and helpful in Kevin's and my effort.
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Nov 17, 2010 - 07:58pm PT
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Ksolem,
Thanks for the reply. I'm stoked on Nautilus then! It's a goal for next season. I'll have to train hard though. It's a wicked cool line.
There was most definitely a line between WWotW and Terrorvision. I did TV that day, the first pitch of Nautilus, then started up WWotW and clipped the first bolt. I didn't see bolts above so I (incorrectly) unclipped the first bolt on WWotW and moved to another line out right that had two bolts. It was definitely NOT WWotW as shown in the old printed guide since that's one of the few routes in the guide that has a good photograph of that section and I was way out right (I looked it up later). The runout above the last bolt was about 20' on easy territory, then the holds thinned over a short bulge that I couldn't safely get past. Anyways, just a heads up on another route (or partial route?) out there!
PP told me he'd give me a copy of his new guide when he completed it for returning his GPS. Oh well... I'm still glad he got the GPS back!
Josh
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:01pm PT
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I agree that a new guide probably won't make that much of a different over the long run. The area is kind of like the Cookie or Arch Rock in that you need a certain skill set that keeps many away from most of the routes. I look forward to checking out the guide when it comes out.
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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Nov 17, 2010 - 08:05pm PT
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Josh- the old book incorrectly shows Wicked West Of the Witch. It is to the right of where the Vernon book shows it going. Kris is correct, I think you got on W W O T W but it goes way up & left after the third bolt. I recall the belay anchors were hard to find. Nice job doing Terrorvision, how were the bolts?
Regarding the Nautilus - Dale Bard visited with Bob Harrington some years back & they got on it. Dale told me it was the hardest thing he's ever tried. I know it recieved a repeat ascent from Tom Gilje & Mike Lechlinski back in the day. They said it was hard as well. There are some bolts to bypass a loose flake dubbed the "sea serpent" in the middle. I think the last 35' are really tough too. There was some kind of shennagins on that last bit.
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Rockin' Gal
Trad climber
Boulder
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Nov 18, 2010 - 04:43pm PT
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Kris,
I'm glad you're giving the Needles an update. BITD people said the same thing about the increased traffic. It really won't happen due to the location and approach hikes. Still an adventure area and will be.
Twenty years ago, there was a dearth of information available on the area. Greg accumulated everything he could find, took the pictures and handed it to me. I compiled and edited it, literally drawing topos from napkins and paper bags.
My goal was to give people enough information so they could find the climb and not get in trouble. If two topos of the same route differed on the number of bolts, I used the lesser number. I figured a climber would be better off to find an extra bolt than to not find one at all. I had a discussion with George Meyers about this same issue. In his case, people would omit a pitch on an El Cap topo.
I sent around copies to the climbers-that-be and I think one person responded. So, you do the best you can with what you've got. And, you definitely don't write guidebooks for the money.
Sally
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Nov 18, 2010 - 04:57pm PT
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Kris, let me know if you need any help with it. Great task ahead of you! Go man go! Are you doing the design work? You helped me, so I'll return the favor any way I can.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 18, 2010 - 05:40pm PT
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Sally, Thanks for your comments! I have your trio of books on the table in front of me. They are well worn and treasured.
The Needles, Seqouia and Kings Canyon, Domelands. A lot of wild times in high places!
Tom, I'll email you with some questions along the way. Thanks!
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Josh Higgins
Trad climber
San Diego
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Nov 18, 2010 - 06:27pm PT
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Levy,
Thanks for the clarification. The bolts on Terrorvision were fine. That's a spectacular route, to say the least!
Josh
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Impaler
Gym climber
Vancouver
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Nov 18, 2010 - 07:32pm PT
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Kris,
Thanks a lot for doing that! Needles really need a new guidebook. I started climbing there well after the old guidebook was out of print, so I was one of those peoples with Clint's topo printouts from the internets. Needles have some of the best granite on the planet and it would be awesome to have more information about newer routes as well as some of the less-traveled lines!
Another huge thanks for replacing old bolts!
Vlad
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 19, 2010 - 11:45am PT
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Does the original guide have a history section that somebody would be willing to scan and post? I don't have this guidebook in the library.
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ec
climber
ca
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Nov 19, 2010 - 11:53am PT
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Steve,
No, the original guide did not address the historical issues.
ec
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 19, 2010 - 11:55am PT
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Thanks- I am glad that this upcoming guide/history is going to. No time like the present...
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Murf
climber
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Nov 19, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
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I think there's a pretty good description (at least, I think its good) of WWotW on mp.com http://mountainproject.com/v/california/the_needles__kern_river/the_needles/106831091.
Like Levy mentions, I think Josh was on-route. I've heard another story of a local (Carson?) going up just after it was put up who also continued straight up after the third bolt. Obviously there wasn't a belay and they just stanced it and brought their partner up (fourth-hand from Levy or Lechlinski)?
Looking forward to the guide Kris, thanks for the hard work!
Murf
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ec
climber
ca
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Nov 24, 2010 - 01:59pm PT
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Here's an anecdote of Needles' History that I have had posted on my website vertical20.com for some time:
"The Guide Says It's Only 5.9?"
Reprinted from the Western Mountaineering Newsletter, circa 1986
by Todd Vogel
I was completely tangled in a climber trap of manzanita and mountain laurel with some other strange scrub thrown in. It was an Alpine Jungle, rating at least T-3+ on the bushwhack rating scale. The bushwhack rating scale parallels the aid climbing scale; T-1 is the easiest and T-5 the hardest. T-3, by definition, means all hands and feet are off the ground, but chances of a fall are minimal. We were on our third hour of a "45 minute" approach. I could hear my partner's curses, but could not see him as he avoided a short cliff by the only possible method: down climbing a tree. I reminded myself that we were here to climb rocks, not trees. Finally, we met at the base of the route. We both suggested simultaneously that there might have been an easier approach.
Climbing at the Needles is strange. First, you crank out the 2.5-mile pre-approach, and then you do the approach. The first hike allows plenty of time for "karma-ponderation." "Oh, no! Did you see that dead mouse? Let's go bouldering instead! Or fishing..." Inevitably we ended up at the base of some radical looking route. I have yet to figure out if the climbs in the Needles are under rated or if the approach just takes one grades worth of ability out of the prospective rock lemming. Whatever it is, "The guide says it's only 5.9!" was the 2nd most common sentence of our trip. The first was, "Waah!"
The rudimentary guide contributes to the uniqueness of Needles climbing. The book helps one find the start of the climb, but if more info is desired, it is found on the route. There is little or no info as to what sort of rack to carry, the nature of the climbing (crack, face, or?), where the crux is, or where the belays are. A typical description may be, "The 'S' Crack, 5.9, 9 pitches." A simple sketch showing the start relative to the main features is also included.
We saw "The 'S' Crack" in the book and immediately decided it was the route to do. Saying, "It is only 5.9, we'll flash it!" was our first mistake; the second was starting at noon. I was thinking about that dead mouse on the trail. The approach must have made me exceptionally tired because four hard pitches up I decided 5.9 at the Needles only means there probably won't be much 5.11+ on the route. The fifth pitch was mine and it made me wonder where the crux was or was going to be. Strange is the life of the rock lemming. I was doing all this wondering because I couldn't move. I was in a 5.9+ doublewaahsqueezechimney. One of those chimneys where you can't move your head and falling isn't the problem, suffocation is. The wind carried up a yell from my partner, "The guide says it's only 5.9!" "Waaaaah," I grunted back; it cost me three inches of movement too.
With one pitch left, it looked like rain, but it felt like snow. Because of anticipated rate of ascent, we hadn't worn enough clothes and for most of the climb we'd been swapping a windbreaker at the belays. Now we just wanted off (OFFOFFOFF!). Rather than summiting, we traversed to the rappel/descent route. The epic was over---all we had to do was hike three miles back to Shangri-la, bean burritos and a tent, alas! No beer!
Back at camp, safe and stomach full, we decided that it had been one of our best days of climbing in a long time. If the guide had a complete route description or if it had hinted about that chimney, I doubt we'd have done the climb. But our experience was all the better because of the sparse information. I hope that any subsequent Needles' guides show the way to the base as "well" as the present book, maintaining the tradition of being able to climb as if the route was being done for the first time. Besides, as old Ellsworth Kolb has noted, ..."too much information would spoil the romance of such an adventure."
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2010 - 03:04pm PT
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..."too much information would spoil the romance of such an adventure."
Yes.
Great story!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 24, 2010 - 04:36pm PT
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It's great that you are working on this Kris.
It will be good to get some of the old errors corrected that have been transmitted forward.
Alexander and I climbed a few routes and corrected a few things (Sorcerer's Apprentice, The Entity, bolt locations on Wicked, The Lifeboat, Shadows in the Rain), but there are so many more routes that we never got to check out (plus I can't do much on 5.12s).
I also want to clarify that although a search on "Needles rock climbing" will bring up my page, the best topos were made by Alexander Cooper, so they are not really "Clint's". :-) Hopefully our stuff has been useful in the long gap between good guidebooks.
I look forward to updates and publication of the guidebook!
Plus I hope to get down there to help a little with the rebolting next summer.
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steve yates
Mountain climber
nc
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Apr 16, 2011 - 01:04pm PT
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I climbed there a couple of times in early and middle 70's with Chris (his last name is De St Croix). I can't help much with the history or routes. I was just along to belay and roll the hooter. I just though it might be helpful in locating him to know his full last name. I did a lot of backpacking and climbing in the high Sierra with him during that time. The last I heard he was living on a boat in SF. Please forward me an email or address if you would happen to find one.
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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Apr 16, 2011 - 01:56pm PT
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Hey Kris, I'm glad you are doing the guide! Its good to have a local who has been around for a long time do this for sure! Somebody who actually has climbed lots of the routes and rebolted. I have a question for you and anybody else who wants to put in. The Southern Sierra Climbers Association is disbanding. Years ago I personally, along with a few others, placed the stokes litter out there for first responder purposes. I have gone out there twice and replaced the first aid needs in the kit that is with the litter. I haven't been involved in awhile now and I don't think anyone has gone to check on the litter or the first responder kit with it. THe question is.....Do you all want this out there?? I think its a good thing to have, we placed it after the climber fatality out there. But, nobody has attended to it and as far as I know it might have been thrown over the side. If you all are in favor, I'll personally go out and replace the stuff with some things I'll donate. What do you all think??
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2011 - 03:34pm PT
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It was out there in the main notch last summer along with a kit box. I didn't inspect the contents but will this summer. It definitely should be maintained and I will be happy to participate in that.
Sorry to hear about the demise of SSCA. I've never been much for clubs, and so did not participate but I always tried to attend the slide shows and thought that was a great bunch of people.
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ec
climber
ca
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Apr 16, 2011 - 05:12pm PT
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Facts:
The SSCA was never a club.
It was a non-profit organization formed of and by climbers to serve the climbing community. Think of the Access Fund...
Since many rather have treated it like a club instead of a service organization, well you can see what has happened.
Two cents from a founding member...
ec
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 16, 2011 - 06:28pm PT
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North Face of the Fin
I would like to hear more about that if that info is available.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2011 - 06:38pm PT
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EC, I am sorry for my misrepresentation of SSCA as a "club." A poor choice of wording, and I am truly sorry to see the organization fold.
"North Face of The Fin..."
I stood at the base looking up. I think a Ron Carson route? Way old bolts for sure. Much steeper than Silver lining.
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ec
climber
ca
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Apr 16, 2011 - 07:32pm PT
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North Face of the Fin's most recent route was done by Kevin Daniels and Leversee, if I can recall correctly.
- ec
Kris, I took no offense at you for your choice of words. I was merely speaking my mind to what I had perceived in the last years of the SSCA's path. That 'term' even shows up in the member blog as well as years of observation. Few really did the work (service), while the rest when along for the ride; which is O.K. to a point...apologies to those who could only support financially...
ec
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mooch
Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
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Apr 17, 2011 - 01:14am PT
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Ok Boys....sharpen your memories.
Anyone done the 'Strange Brew' link up with Magic Dragon? Deb and I did this last year. I had a printed topo from EC's site but now the link seems to be broken???
ANYWAY....I started up the 2nd pitch (step off the tree branch and up onto the slab). The topo shows one lone "knob" low on the pitch, then 2 (as memory serves) bolts before reaching a big ledge. After slinging that marginal knob, I went up past large wavy dishes.....scanning for bolts as I went along. Left, right, up, down, diagonal.....NOTHING! Must've searched for several minutes before abandoning the effort. At this point, I'm 40' above the knob and 60' above the belay. Yep!....deck city. Trying not to think about this fact, I managed to run it out to the ledge. The climbing was probably 5.7+/5.8-. I had Debbi look for the bolts on her way up......NADA! It definitely made for the "X" factor. I used Kris's picture to ID the runout 2nd pitch (in purple) of Strange Brew.
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ec
climber
ca
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Apr 17, 2011 - 01:38am PT
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Checked it. Topo link works @ vertical20.com. Two dicey knob tie offs and One bolt only. Sorry for the despair.
ec
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Apr 17, 2011 - 02:13am PT
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killer thread!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Apr 17, 2011 - 02:16am PT
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bummer about the SSCA
thx for the N. Face replies.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Apr 17, 2011 - 02:39am PT
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I can not wait to climb there!
Looking forward to the new guide.
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T R
climber
Ca.
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Apr 17, 2011 - 11:33am PT
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Yep, this used to be a magical and mysterious place. Little was known; adventure was high. Then the Great Book was published; with it came the people, fees, and rules. Things changed, yet no one seemed to see it coming...
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2011 - 02:37pm PT
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You are not the first to raise this point, and it is something which Kevin Daniels and I have discussed at length ourselves and with many others.
Today The Needles is a world famous climbing destination. In 2000 President Clinton designated the entire surrounding area as the Giant Sequoia National Monument, so if fees and increased regulation come to pass you might look to that as part of the cause. The ramp up to National Monument status has been gradual but it is happening.
I spent much of the last two summers at The Needles. It was crowded on holiday weekends, and not just with climbers. We were outnumbered by hikers heading out to the lookout whose vehicles filled the trailhead lot and were backed up on the road as well.
The rest of the time I was often alone for days at a time, or there would be a couple of other parties there, usually from faraway places. Everyone had lots of information from online sources about the trade routes and the well-known test pieces like The Warrior, Pyromaniac and Atlantis. Occasionally someone would produce a copy of the treasured out of print guidebook by Greg Vernon, Pat Paul and Sally Moser. I especially enjoyed showing my mint copy of the old EC Joe / Richard Leversee “Stonemashers” guide from 1983. Everyone I talked to was hungry for information about the history of the place and also about the less well known climbs.
I really do not think anyone is deterred from visiting the Needles due to the lack of a guidebook. It is not a secret area. Even when I first went there nearly 30 years ago it was an international destination and climbing films like Moving Over Stone were being made there.
The “Great Book” as you call it will set the historical record straight (something which internet sources do not do well,) and show visiting climbers more options among the many fantastic routes there. The book will show the location of the climbs, the approach and descent options, any significant or interesting history, and in a few cases some info on gear if it is unusual. My goal is not to provide detailed specific beta for every route as that is contrary to the nature of the place and often subject to each climber’s individual techniques and preferences.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Apr 17, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
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This thread needs more pics!!!
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2011 - 03:41pm PT
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"Starting with Imaginary Voyage..."
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mooch
Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
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Apr 18, 2011 - 01:41am PT
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Might wanna change that topo EC...er, Kris. Spent a fair amount of time on that pitch looking for ANY pro I could get my gear in/on/around/though.....just that marginal knob down low. And, yes, we were on route by what the topo showed.
Here's a shot looking down from the ledge onto Pitch #2 of 'Strange Brew'. As you can see to the left of the climber, there's is a large branch in the shadows below. The topo shows to climb a tree and step out onto a ledge (actually, its a large watermelon sized knob....useless to protect since its right at the belay). The next bit of pro was the marginal knob (right where the climber in the photo would be standing on). After that.....nothing. you can see its dishy and decent sloping stances are present. But there ain't no more knobs to sling or a bolt near the last 10'.
"I don't see anything you could even consider a knob out here. Check yer shorts yet?" - the Lovely Deb Castro
Looking above the ledge......pitch #3 heading to the Football Field. Nice pitch!
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pleasantOs
Trad climber
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Apr 18, 2011 - 09:44am PT
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Chris de St. Croix (my uncle) was perhaps putting up a route or two. The only FA of his I know of is on the back side of the fire lookout up there off HWY 180 in Sequoia near Little Baldy and Chimney Rock Spire north of the "Y" on the way to Kings Canyon, and maybe another one an obscure granite escarpment on the left side of the windy road up to Mineral King. I'm not familiar with any FAs of his at the Needles, but there may be one. I'm fairly certain his living up near Sugarbowl ski area near Donner Summit.
J.P. de St. Croix (my dad) belayed Porter in a hammock for 9-10 days in April of '74 while ice sheets fell from the rim. Guess he had the bedsores while Porter was placing a "white cream" on his other sores. Can you imagine leading those rivet ladder pitches onsight with the cat-scratch fever??? I think this was back when climbing was dangerous and sex was supposedly safe. No headlamps back then. Luckily a lightning flash allowed my dad to remove his beard from his six-carabiner brake system at one point on one of the descents before the final push.
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ec
climber
ca
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Apr 18, 2011 - 10:15am PT
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Mooch,
By the pic, you are on route, however there used to be a bolt right around there. I know that at one time there was one, as I drilled it and probably guided the thing over a dozen times. It was (I thought at the time) a real good .25 Rawl Drive. I suppose I'll need to go and REplace it. without it, I'm sure it's sorta scary, eh?
ec
I've seen bolts disappear before. Usually, those damn Rawl Drives too. 'Almost like it was never there...
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mooch
Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
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Apr 18, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
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Thanks EC! Yeah, a bit nervy but managable. Thought I'd stumble upon it though. Someone had mentioned it to me previous to the trip that they noticed the bolt was looking "rough" and was a spinner.
BTW, where was there an opportunity for "tie-offs"? Everything in the photo is a bump, not even a marginal knob.
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Apr 18, 2011 - 05:24pm PT
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PleasantOs wrote:
and maybe another one an obscure granite escarpment on the left side of the windy road up to Mineral King.
Is this the nice looking face immediately above the road? Have you climbed there? It has a really good looking mini-pinnacle, like an arrow? Always wondered about this one.
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ec
climber
ca
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Apr 22, 2011 - 09:58am PT
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Mooch,
The terrain just above the climber is not to bad, just the last moves to the ledge are dicey. The marginal dbl knob tieoffs are below the spot where the climber is. They take 1/2" wide slings on the pair and magic x'd between the two.
-ec
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mooch
Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
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Apr 22, 2011 - 05:18pm PT
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Gotcha! Yea, I recall the final moves after leaving those "bumps". Commiting. If you were to come off at that point, those ties off (although I only found ONE) are pretty low and it wouldn't be a happy ending, even with a magic "x" tie off. If I had been the FAist, I would've gone with a bolt as the route heads up into the bumps. JMO.
Going out on a limb (with current state of that pitch).....
R/X!
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ec
climber
ca
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Apr 22, 2011 - 08:26pm PT
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Mooch,
I may go and fix the prob soon...at the time, it seemed like no big deal.
Rx = prescription drugs required? LOL
ec
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 22, 2011 - 10:41pm PT
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Question for the locals;
Back in the early to mid 90's Egor was on my hit list.
Now both Ed and I are long time Tahquitz locals so with Egor's reputation as an uber classic it seemed to me that the line was the elegant finger crack just to the right, rather than the first pitch dihedral, that looked like about any other Tahquitz dihedral.
The crack is about 5.7-5.8 and stays perfectly the same 3/4"-1" width until it ends and requires solving a bit puzzling sequence of face moves to get back left on the main crack.
Lock Pick Variation 5.9+ / 5.10-?
Had this been done before? Don't remember it documented in the annotated Stone Mashers guide that hung at the first booth.
Once I pull out some old photos I can pin the date down.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2011 - 06:19pm PT
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The left facing corner left of center throwing a shadow is Igor Unchained. The next corner, right of center is Shazam. The thin seam in the center of the slab is Ron Carsons old project / route Vanishing Point.
I find no record of an "FA" of the crack just right of Igor which joins it. Keep in mind that there has been a lot of undocumented climbing done in the Needles over the years.
I will make some inquiries about that variation and see what comes up. Please email me the details including date of your ascent.
Nice job.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 23, 2011 - 07:35pm PT
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kris,
It just hit me!
That was the same day you fixed your buddy's car with the 9mm pistol.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 23, 2011 - 09:22pm PT
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That's funny! The pistol was a Mauser .380, 9mm kurz in German. It's not a powerful round, but it is the ideal choice when the task at hand is punching some holes in a melted down plugged catalytic converter without the bullet coming out the other side and ripping through a fuel or brake line or some such thing. Worked like a charm.
That was quite a day.
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cultureshock
Trad climber
Mountain View
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Bump for the Needles Guide.
Kris, any idea on a publication date?
Would be amazing to have it before next season!
Luke
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2012 - 05:13pm PT
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Working feverishly to have it out for next season...
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Keith Leaman
Trad climber
Seattle
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Kris, PleasantOs,
This is the first time I've seen this thread. Nothing to add except that I worked with Chris and JP de St Croix in the early '70s at Alpenlite in Claremont. One day about six of us were at Chris' getting ready to head out to Rubidoux when he looked around the room and exclaimed: "Damn! I'm surrounded by redheads!!" (which was true).
Always wondered what happened to those two. If you hear from them please give my regards. The last time I saw JP was just after his exploits with Porter in '74 (I remember his beard event). Only climbed at the Needles once, but it is one of the most memorable places I've been. Best of luck with the book.
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