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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Dec 16, 2005 - 02:04pm PT
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Better sharpen your tools if you're going to chop all the bolts that have been added to aid routes to make them go free. Why single out WDD here?
From my perspective, it's a pretty lame argument. If the route had zero bolts to begin with, and a free-climber added bolts, then you'd have my sympathy. But a route that starts with a 200' bolt ladder? Come on, what game are you trying to play.
:- k
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Northern Mexico
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 16, 2005 - 02:15pm PT
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Can you provide a list of some of the routes that this practice has occurred on. I not interested in chopping, just the history.
Muir - the 2 pitches above grey?
WDD
Juanito
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Ed Bannister
Mountain climber
Victorville, CA
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Dec 16, 2005 - 02:48pm PT
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Royal later expressed regret for having chopped Harding's bolts.
Wouldn't true ethics police discuss chopping the bolter, not just the bolts?
As much as I don't like the guy, or wouldn't trust him, the bolts are there, if they are bad, wrong, stupid, unethical or named after each of Tookie's apprentices, let 'em be, they stand as witness to him who put them in, time will tell.
yes ethicspolice
No noegoinvested
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Dec 16, 2005 - 02:49pm PT
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Chopping bolts so that you can hammer in a copper head? Totally bold.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Dec 16, 2005 - 08:12pm PT
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Free climbing bolts added to existing aid routes? I'm no expert
here, but one obvious one is the Nose. Some new bolts recently
discussed here, and how about that traverse? Those bolts have
been there for a while and nobody's talking about wanting to chop
those. Another, Zodiac.
Variations on Salathe?
The hood orniment?
NA?
Like I said, I'm no expert, but I do know they exist.
People think they can get to Skinner by chopping his bolts.
To me it sounds like it's a personal war.
:- k
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Dec 16, 2005 - 08:48pm PT
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k-man, you're right on. It's some kind of stupid personal deal. I'd hate to see the cliff get all f'd up by people bolting/chopping/replacing/re-chopping bolts.
The whole thing is rather stupid - the route has an aid ladder leading up to it. Nobody is going to return to repeat the thing on free. The original route required hammering and the current route still sees hammering. And someone is chopping a route so that they can aid it (why not just not clip the bolts if they're so bold??)!
Eh, if they are going to chop it, I might as well go up and swipe the hangers before they do.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 16, 2005 - 09:24pm PT
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What makes you think no one will make a free repeat?
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Loom
climber
167 stinking feet above sea level : (
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Dec 16, 2005 - 09:40pm PT
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I don't care about Skinner. For me it is not about some personal grudge. Don't know him, don't care.
What it is about, is this: Some climbers seem to KNOW that their vision of higher forms and climbing's future permits them to add bolts to an existing route. They KNOW that it is a righteous act. They know it the way Jody KNOWS that everyone on SuperTopo, except him, is going burn in hell in a lake of fire for all eternity. Hewett and Skinner KNOW that they can climb that line better than it was originally done, problem is they don't have a time machine.
When an aid climber adds a bolt to a belay or places a chicken rivet, it is wrong. He probably knows it's wrong, and most of us, hopefully, know it is wrong. But the chicken bolts were put in for an entirely different reason than Todd and Jim's. The snail eyed aid climber put them in out of weakness, to his shame, and few will argue their eventual removal. While they continue to go unchopped they are not as much of a threat to the FA rule as Hewett and Skinner's bolts.
The "few bolts" that are added in the name of a "higher form" FFA are the foot in the door. If we say it is okay for Todd to do this, we are saying it is okay for anyone. We will also be saying not just that it is okay to add bolts for a FFA, but it is okay to "re-do" any FA, aid or free. Once this is more acceptable we'll see more recycled aid routes where as much as possible all vestiges of the original "lower form" aid route will be erased. In its place will be the perfected route--the "higher form" route, with plenty of bolts, epoxy reinforced holds, and properly situated belays. Next of course it will be the free climbs that someone just KNOWS he or she could FA much better.
Todd and Jim apparently view aid climbing as a dead language. A soon to be "historical curiosity." So they have no qualms about writing over the text in those old books. Maybe, eventually, you can just go out and erase all the words and write your own higher form. Erase the previous FAs from the backs of guide books, they never existed.
The FA rule is arbitrary, but it works. It saves us from legions of climbers, badass and gumbie alike, going out to "perfect" their favorite routes.
Don't let that happen. Maintain the routes. Replace old bolts. Don't add bolts. Chop and patch non-original bolts.
--Scott
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 16, 2005 - 09:42pm PT
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Everybody likes the smell of their own farts.
But having said that, the free climbers say it's a quality line. The Westie face variation has seen quite a few repeats already by relative mortals. I don't know how much harder WDD is but nobody expected the Salathe to see the traffic that it gets now. I'm sure somebody will repeat it. The guy who put up the 13r on the Falls wall already said he thought it would be "fun to try."
Now the question of boldness is interesting. Sure, some sport dclimbs dumb down boldness, but my understanding is that Todd was taking 30 foot whippers up there. Freeclimbing a route like that seems pretty bold to me.
Now that one bolt above Ahwahnee, the one that keeps you from cratering into the ledge. Does that bolt reduce the boldness? It sure does for the aid climbers who clip it. On the other hand, there are tons of aid climbers who would only go up there if they didn't think they were facing a death fall if somebody else's copperheads blew out on them. That's their limit of boldness. So if the route still has technical aid on it, they might push their boldness to do the route if that one nagging danger was lessened.
Which is kind of a BS danger to chop bolts and deny free climbers a fair shot at the route in order to maintain. All that trouble to keep a fall on fixed gear a potential death fall.
This ain't just talk either. Somebody else has already posted that the free bolt kept somebody from hitting Ahwahnee after a long fall. Personally, yeah, climbing is dangerous, but I wouldn't want somebody elses trip to the iron lung on my chopping conscious.
Peace
Karl
Edit:
Scott's version of the FA rule isn't the one that climbers have been going on for a long time.
Skinner consulted the FA party about the bolts, he got the OK. Scott might say the FA doesn't have the rights to OK more bolts, but the game has been played differently for a long time. First Ascenders have OKed bolts on plenty of climbs.
Also, Minerals added a couple bolts to WDD himself at a "better belay" He nobly fessed up to it here and the opinion was divided about whether the original belay should be chopped or Minerals "better" belay. It just ain't so black and white.
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mtwoodsonguide
Big Wall climber
San Diego
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Dec 16, 2005 - 10:40pm PT
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Why didn't you chop them before he sent, that would have been way better. How long have those bolts been there. 2 3 years.
What about the Dihedral Wall, I'm sure he didn't get input from the fa of that one. The bolt ladder around A3 slime make the crux A0. Been like 3 years at least.
What does would Jim Bridwell think. He's still the man in my opinion.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
boulder, co
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Dec 16, 2005 - 10:40pm PT
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This is really funny sh#t.
One only has to look at "The Shield" to see how aid climbing has done it's fair share of "damage" to El Cap.
I would bet that more "holes" have been put in on original routes (after the FA) on El Cap" by aid climbers than free climbers.
Any takers???
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dougs510
Trad climber
Nashville, TN.
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Dec 16, 2005 - 11:36pm PT
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Dude,
Todd is so far out of your league. If you want to chop, chop away.
HELL YES. Remove them. Then I'd like you to free LT......... BawwwwHawwwww. LT is a SOB is a bitch to aid, much less free.
Somehow, I think your a troll stirring the pot. So, I'm not politically correct and your goofy..... by the way, have you done LT before?
Live Big, talk little.
D.
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poop_tube
Trad climber
Irvine, CA
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Dec 17, 2005 - 12:24am PT
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I EAT BOLTS FOR BREAKFAST, AAAAAARGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH
I BURY DOZ KOCKAROACHES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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poop_tube
Trad climber
Irvine, CA
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Dec 17, 2005 - 12:26am PT
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I TONY MONTANAAAAAAAAA
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poop_tube
Trad climber
Irvine, CA
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Dec 17, 2005 - 12:27am PT
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WADDAA YOU KNOW
BUBBLE HEAD????
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 17, 2005 - 01:43am PT
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So, you're saying that you sent and chopped the bolts???
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poop_tube
Trad climber
Irvine, CA
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Dec 17, 2005 - 06:28am PT
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noooo
man
i havent been up there yet]]]
chppin or no chppin
peace\
kia
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poop_tube
Trad climber
Irvine, CA
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Dec 17, 2005 - 06:39am PT
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respect
including Todd
cuz dat sh#t must be hard
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poop_tube
Trad climber
Irvine, CA
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Dec 17, 2005 - 06:54am PT
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i dunno, if you dont want to clip them, then dont, much love to all ya all
lets just climb!
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Dec 19, 2005 - 03:26pm PT
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Re: why bother w/ second free ascent -
Seems like a bit of slog to get all the way to Awahnee ledge to then start free climbing. That's all. But if people say the climbing is all that, then perhaps I'm wrong...
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