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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
wussing off the topout on Roadside Attraction
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Oct 23, 2010 - 03:26pm PT
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Oh yeah.
Try tatooing these words on the inside of your eyelids, where they will come to life once your head is resting on the wall in contemplation of defeat:
I'M NOT F*#KIN BAILING.
Routes that lean, overhang, traverse, and take a lot of sweat-investment to reach are good too. It's easy to tell yourself that it's OK to go down if you can see your car the whole time.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 23, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
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Also tough if you can see the river and it's hot weather.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
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Critter,
1. Good point on the screamer. Will do.
2. Most likely will use Mark's suggestion of Kleimheist knots.
3. I started climbing with my aiders free on Fish's recommendation. It really helps with freeing up the cluster. My thought is that I am currently running 2 pair of easy aiders. If I drop i pair I could split up my other set up and then clip them into my daises.
Hey Locker,
I think that might have been me who recommended the Bastille to you??? Sorry.
Hark,
Thanks for the link on the Gri Gri, currently my unit is modified. I'll look into getting another unmodified one. But for now this'll do.
Peter,
You started with "The two Rock Exotica units are awesome by the way.". Do you mean Holly's system of using 2 rock ushibas and dynamic cord in lieu of daises?
Great write up. A lot of why you say that I may not want to solo a wall is exactly why I think I might want to do one, or at least try.
Adam,
"by the time you figure most of it out.. you'll be on top ;)"
That is pretty much how I got to the top of Zodiac.
Rhodo,
Dean used 3 ladders when we climbed Zodiac, I am planning on buying some and practicing this system. Do you use 1 per daisy and put both feet on the rung you are working off of? Or is this where you bring the 3rd into play. Meaning climb ladder to 2nd or top step then clip the 3rd in to work on the next placement?
Any clue on what your solo TR was called?
"Also tough if you can see the river and it's hot weather."
Did Zodiac in August when it was 104 on the floor. Ugly stinky pee, other than that I loved every second of it.
Everyone else,
Thanks you for the advice of practice practice practice.
Cheers
Prod.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 23, 2010 - 06:33pm PT
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Peter Haan's post is very helpful, very accurate. There's all kinds of ways to set things up, but you really have to WANT to climb the route--it's a lot of work. You've backed off once already!
My first solo aid was Sundevil Chimney on Titan. At the time, I knew no more than you now. After driving three hundred miles from the Front Range, and lugging three loads of gear out to the base, and also knowing that the aid would be kinda hard but not super hard (this was maybe 1993) the result was never really in doubt.
Good technical advice above. Keeping things as simple as possible is a huge priority, or else you will wear yourself down. My own system is to use knots, no grigri, or any other mechanical devices. That helps.
Yes, place a directional above your initial anchor, so as to keep the anchor oriented in the direction (usually upward) you expect any pull. If you can cinch this fairly tight, with a bungee or similar, (even a shoelace!) that's a bonus. If the anchor is loose, and you are pulling the rope and repeatedly dropping it again, biners will rotate, cams may walk from where you placed them, and nuts may wiggle loose--not good!
A screamer on the belay is a great idea for really dicey leads.
Since there will no one watching it, the anchor has to be super, super bomber. I use all lockers for the belays, and in addition usually double up biners (they can, very rarely, break over an edge, and in the event of a solo fall, it's hard to know exactly where they will end up. The DMM Belaymaster biners are my favorites, as they will prevent cross-loading. Once I've left that anchor, I don't want to have to give it a single thought again.
What else? I'm with Fish, don't tie the aiders into anything, as this creates extra tangles. Learn to not drop things--there's a way of moving on a wall, fluid, methodical, deliberate, that will become automatic.
I use two aiders. Drop one on a one-day climb, you can improvise some shoulder length slings. For El Cap, pack an extra pair in the haulbag.
Now get out there and have fun!
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Prod
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 23, 2010 - 07:12pm PT
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Hey Crunch,
Thanks that is some good Beta. Did you research me or just remember bailing on Lost Arrow Spire in 07? I'll credit that more to my now wife than me, and I get your point. Where are you in Colorado? I'd be glad to buy you a beer or 10 if you wanted to come out and evaluate my systems some time.
With regard to wanting to solo a wall, it is pretty much all I have thought about since I did Zodiac in August of 08. Life, work, getting moved to Colorado from Michigan, etc have gotten in the way a bit. I get pissed when I realize that another season passes me or is getting underway and I have no way to pull it off. So yes I might bail, I sort of doubt it, and I gotta try.
Cheers,
Prod.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 23, 2010 - 07:28pm PT
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Hey Guy, remember what I said about soloing;
Three times the work
Five times the challenge
But yields ten times the reward.
Its a heavy shot. In fact, after I succeeded in putting up some walls solo when I then put up walls with other partners there was almost always a tiny kernel of accomplishment that was missing. I mean, doing a FA with a good friend is a deeply rewarding experience, but it also felt a bit like cheating because, for example, if my psych started to flag then my partner would buck me up.
People get overly ambitious though (and also a bit unwilling to pay their dues).
Before trying to solo a big wall a person should solo dozens of pitches. Then he should solo some Grade IIIs. Etc. etc.
Work the kinks out.
Ah yes, I remember the good old days of teaching myself soloing on the crack to the right of Huston, and the Practice Wall, and Country Club, and other Boulder Canyon routes.
What fun!
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Oct 23, 2010 - 07:31pm PT
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I will second the UN-modified Gri for aid.
For free, works great.
So, You hav never soloed a wall.....
Sounds like another great trip report :)
good luck!
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
wussing off the topout on Roadside Attraction
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Oct 23, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
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Um, I don't even own ladders, I just steal my partners' for the leads. Because they are better.
The floater comes out when I can't stand on one leg long enough to fire the next piece in. I also do a fair bit of edging, jamming 'fraid stuff because I am essentially a free climber at heart, and it helps me to get up higher faster. This may not be everyone's style, and I abandon it freely depending on the terrain.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 23, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
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"Did you research me or just remember bailing on Lost Arrow Spire in 07"
Funny, I knew nothing of that. Actually I was referring to the Practice Crack you posted the photos from. The reason for bailing there being, I would guess, that you had nothing invested in success.
For me, I have to be soloing something that really inspires me, to have any chance of success. I'd bail from something in Boulder Canyon, too.
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Cpt0bvi0u5
Trad climber
Merced CA
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Oct 23, 2010 - 08:59pm PT
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I'd double up on the lockers connecting the rope to the anchor.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 23, 2010 - 09:13pm PT
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Oh yeah, stop thinking like a two man team. You can beef up the belay from anchors mid pitch. You can belay from the lip of a roof (since you won't be standing there while you lead). You can short pitch a section just to ease hauling and leave your bag mid-pitch.
Don't think out of the box.
Think; there is no box.
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MisterE
Social climber
Bouncy Tiggerville
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Oct 23, 2010 - 09:14pm PT
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Just wanted to post to this important climbing thread:
Dood, yer gonna get flamed!
;-)
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Oct 23, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
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Of course in all things, “Keep it simple, make it fun” (k.i.s.m.if) as Crunch notes just above! You won’t make it otherwise if you are all the time trying to figure out the square root of minus one, placement after placement. It has to be easy, quick, mostly problem-free and unburdensome for the most part.
Back in the day, I used a jumar and a 7mm perlon loop prussik---properly roughed up for friction--- and triple rather than double wrapped. I did actually fall on the rig and it worked fine. However now 40 years later, I would use as I mentioned (and you then queried me just above) Rock Exotica belay devices. I am quite surprised you don’t know about these...most climbers do.
These are great devices: one for more freeclimbing type of soloing (Silent Partner) and another intended for aid climbing (Solo Aid). They available and much detail here. The need--- at least as I see it--- for inventing your own device or system has been over for many years:
http://www.rockexotica.com/products/belay_devices/all_solo_belay.html
I have both devices and would recommend them. However this solo device subject has been threaded a bunch here on Supertopo and it would be worth your time searching for those threads.
Yeah P-Ron. I agree. After soloing a bunch, climbing with humans seems like cheating a tiny bit, it really does, until you re-socialize! Phony feeling almost. You have the thought, “some of that rock down there I did NOT lead, damnit, and maybe I should come back again sometime and do those pitches”. I guess the alternative is the old, get a newbie and have him belay, jumar and haul the whole time.
Big solos are really the province of experienced, expert climbers, Prod. Make sure that is what you are before you tie into one. Climbs don't always go as planned...
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Oct 23, 2010 - 10:47pm PT
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Prod, I haven't read all these responses but I have 3 points:
1. Your anchor looks to be a big loose block....lol
2. Use two biners at the powerpoint, and incorporate a screamer there. I like to use a weighted pig as a counterweight.
3. DON'T tie off your pieces with clove hitches.
I recomend soloing the Prow or WFLT, not on a weekend, then Zodiac.
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Paulina
Trad climber
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Oct 23, 2010 - 11:47pm PT
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Oh yeah, stop thinking like a two man team.
Ron, this is really good advice. I think. I don't know. I'll try to remember if/when I solo aid. Thank you!
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Prod
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2010 - 10:31am PT
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Hey Crunch,
I didn't bail on the Practice Crack, I just stopped taking pictures. I did make it to the top. The Crux was right about where my past picture was taken and consisted of a shallow #00 TCU, then a #3 BD Micro, then a medium cam hoom, bomber sky hook, to solid #3 TCU.
Ron,
I'll pay my dues with practice. Right now I am looking for system advice/ input. From there I'll tweek it to be my own.
Peter,
I do know about the rock exotic products, just didn't put 2 and 2 together as I usually hear soloist, solo aid, and silent partner. Thanks for the advice.
Prod.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Oct 24, 2010 - 10:37am PT
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Prod, I misunderstood what you said about it getting dark, you had dinner plans. You stopped taking pics, that's all. Sorry.
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Slakkey
Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
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Oct 24, 2010 - 12:16pm PT
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I also advocate the use of two aiders over 4. I abandoned the 4 aider system some time ago. I know there are those that still swear by it. However when using just 2 aid ladders it really can help clean up some of the cluster fuk. Having a 3rd floater is a good idea and does not have to be a ladder type aider it can be a more traditional aider that just hangs on your harness and is a little less bulky. How much and when you use it just depends on what route you are doing and your ability as well. I still say try attaching your aiders to your dasies. I agree with Crutch that learning not to drop things is good practice but even the best drop things at times. Last season there was a solo on the Zodiac and he dropped some gear thus not able to finish the route and he had to bail. maybe a rookie mistake maybe not but it finished his chances of continuing.
I think there is a lot of good input on this thread and dont see Peters or Rons comments as discouraging but more about the time, experience and commitment it takes to achieve something like this. Tom Evans and I were talking just a few weeks ago how there seems to be a slight decline in big wall climbing. A number of factors no doubt might be contributing to that . The economy, many younger climbers have not reached that level etc. but also the fact that not as many people may have 2 weeks or a month to spend time climbing let alone the time it takes to practice, work out various systems etc. As you already know Aid climbing is very much a mental / technical process which can take up a lot of time.
What is interesting is that there seems to be a few more solo efforts lately on El cap than in the past. It is those persons that i would try and seek as much advice as possible not only from a technical standpoint on system set ups etc but try and gain some insight into the metal process as well.
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SoloBolo
Boulder climber
Midas, NV
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Oct 24, 2010 - 12:16pm PT
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use the continous loop system
attach your aiders to daisies and keep them clipped to your chest harness. letting them hang really adds to the cluster
soloing is a cluster f#ck... unless your going for speed (i.e. no ledge and either a small pig or backpack)...bottom line.
-the grigri works just fine i've taken all types of imaginable falls on one while soloing and it can be used for SO MUCH on a wall (leading, rapping, hauling)
-i dont have a ton of experience soloing (only 3 el cap routes and prodigal son in 10 hours)but what i did was talk to a few people who knew their stuff and walked up to the captain a few days later and after a 7 day epic with blood, sh#t, Piss, swollen hands and raw hips i topped out. just think about all your systems and answer one question: will this kill me? if the answer is no, continue. if the answer is yes, change something until the answer is no.
 there are many ways to accomplish the same thing when rock climbing do what works best for you.
the only reason i have created mid anchors on a pitch is to keep the rope off of edges over roofs or something. other than that, when your 1000 feet off the deck, a few feet of slack isnt going to make a difference.
just another opinion
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Prod
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 24, 2010 - 01:39pm PT
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just think about all your systems and answer one question: will this kill me? if the answer is no, continue. if the answer is yes, change something until the answer is no.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Great advice solobolo thanks.
Hey Slakkey,
Thanks for the inpup I'm planning on trying the 2 ladder system this week. I'm also chatting with Mark Hudson a bit on his systems.
Cheers
Prod.
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