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BASE1361

climber
F*#k the LEO's
Sep 1, 2010 - 02:51pm PT
Fet...
The victim of BASE jumps in the eyes of the NPS are the thousands of other people whose experience is degraded by base jumping. They are there to view the natural beauty and take photos of it. Most don't want colorful chutes in front of the famous cliffs. Impacting thousands of people's experience so a handfull of people can do their sport isn't a trade off the park service is willing to make.

IF this your point then climbing needs to be banned. Cliffs are littered with climbers and portaledges ect...

I'm curious as to how many of you have personally talked with Ammon to address these questions.

Because I have the answers as to him landing, and if the LEO's identified themselves prior to the taser event, how far he was initially from them,

Granite... it's not hurting his "case" discussing this. I think the opposite. People need to be educated (my self included)

Jstan ... I know Jan Davis's husband. Done a few skydives with him over the years. I also have talked with him and his current wife (who is also a BASE jumper). So your point is???

So the argument we have is
1. Its too dangerous, I don't want my child to see a BASE jumper die?
2. the parachutes are too colorful and it upsets my view?
3. We trample the meadow?
.... what else ??

All of those points that have been expressed are a joke. Each one can be applied to any other activity.

If they shot Ammon with their gun would all of you have the same reaction?

A taser is considered "deadly force".

IN the event that there was a struggle with a Police Officer and the assailant took the Officers taser, the Officer is now justified in shooting and killing the assailant. Why? He is matching deadly force with deadly force.

In the other thread look at the continuum of force
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Sep 1, 2010 - 02:56pm PT
A taser is considered "deadly force" you say?


Can you show where you know this?

I was under the impression a taser was NOT considered deadly force.


I could well be wrong, just asking you to provide the source you know this from.


Thanks in advance
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 1, 2010 - 02:57pm PT
IF this your point then climbing needs to be banned. Cliffs are littered with climbers and portaledges ect...

Not my point, the NPS point. But anyway you need binocs to see climbers on El Cap. You don't see climbers in photos unless you have a huge lens and are looking for them.

NPS makes the rules.

Climbing was grandfathered in and almost not allowed on El Cap.

A few bonehead BASE jumpers trashed the top of El Cap and drove a truck out there so the NPS shut it down. Those are the people you should be pissed at. Then someone dies at a protest. Sad, but set the cause back.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 1, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
"IF this your point then climbing needs to be banned. Cliffs are littered with climbers and portaledges ect..."

Please don't give them any new ideas or encourage them in things that they are already willing to do. Somewhere, someone is reading this and saying, "He make's a good point, we need to restrict climbing more."
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Sep 1, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
I was under the impression a taser was NOT considered deadly force.

It seems part of the problem is Tasers aren't really designated as anything. They are often referred to as less-lethal. That is probably the most accurate moniker.

The definition of firearm is that is uses gunpowder. Companies that make Tasers don't really tell of the risks they have and have been sued because of it.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 1, 2010 - 03:05pm PT
I hadn't heard about the BASE jumpers driving a truck to the top of El Cap. I googled it and found this.

http://www.terragalleria.com/mountain/info/yosemite/base.html

Back to El Cap, in 1980 the park experimented with allowing skydiving. Some people who wanted to legalize and promote jumping off of EL Cap convinced the USPA to establish legal jumping with the NPS. Reasonable guidlines were set up like permits, liscense requirements, time of jumping, probably similar to what is happening now with hanggliding. This lasted about 2 or 3 months. There were a lot of problems such as people leaving trash and damaging the environment and not following the requirments.In general many people were not behaving responsibly. There were a few rescues and minor landing injuries but no fatalities of major injuries. While all this was happening 'the as#@&%es' decided that they didn't want to hike all the way to El Cap so they drove there truck up an old logging road as far as they could. This must have been from Big Oak Flat. The Park may have arrested or cited them, but the USPA thought It would help our image if they took action against them and expelled the people involved. Then these people sued the USPA claiming they had no business regualating base jumping. The USPA decided to drop the whole thing. The NPS outlawed base jumping in national parks. Skydivers and base jumpers did not make a very good impression with the NPS and base jumpers alienated the USPA. Now back to the present. In 1993 a base jumping organization tried to convince the park to allow base jumping and was not succesful. I think that it would take an organization such as the USPA to convince the NPS to allow base jumping. There is little chance of this happening because of the past incident in yosemite and the liability it would place on the USPA.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 1, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
BASE1361, you seem to be conflating several questions, that may be better considered separately.
1. Is basejumping illegal from El Cap, in YNP, or in national parks generally?
2. Should it be illegal? If not, how should it be managed/regulated, consistent with park values?
3. What exactly did Ammon do?
4. Was Ammon, in the legal sense, resisting arrest, and was it legally justifiable use of force to taser him?
5. Is it ever reasonable/justifiable use of force to taser someone for resisting arrest for basejumping - assuming that's what happened - and if so, when?
6. Do climbers and basejumpers have any common or overlapping interests in these matters? The fact that a few climbers also basejump, and that some basejumpers also climb, doesn't necessarily prove that - even if we sometimes use the same "recreational facilities".
7. Do some police, some of the time, abuse their authority?
8. What legal remedies do basejumpers generally and Ammon specifically have, either to change the law and its application, or to defend themselves?
9. Should the SuperTopo community, insofar as it is a community, and individuals therein, be supportive of Ammon, of basejumping in the park, or both, and if so, how? Moral support? Writing letters, although to whom and for what purpose is unclear? Contributing to a legal defence fund? Working toward legal and administrative reforms? Exposing alleged misbehaviour by some members of the police?
10. Is the USA generally, and national parks particularly, becoming over-regulated?

There may be other questions. But staying focused may help.

It seems to me that the challenge for basejumpers generally is working toward change in the law, and how it is enforced. That, and building credibility, will take time, resources, and allies.
canyoncat

Social climber
SoCal
Sep 1, 2010 - 03:20pm PT
Call him you say? Sure I'll get right on that...

*convo*
"Hello, is this Ammon? You don't know me but you see there's this BASE buddy of yours who's been spraying your personal bidnezz all over the net who told a few hundred of us to look you up to get your side of the story. Who the hell is he? Hey, I don't know him either, he wants to remain anonymous. Anyhoo, he's acting all cool-like saying he has the inside story and told us to call you. So could you explain yourself pretty please because I want to be a cool kid too."

"WTF? #%**3@!!!" Click
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Sep 1, 2010 - 03:24pm PT
Graniteclimber... thank you so much for posting that link about base jumping in yosemite and related incidents. We all should stop and read it in full... it is very informative and gives background that is very helpful in understanding what has happened in the past and how that is influencing the present. It gives me new insight into how difficult it is going to be to change the NPS policy and that if it is to be changed then very cool minds and reasoned thought are going to be needed to arrive at a solution. I hope the Base community can find some people to repesent them who are far more rational and measured than the ones posting here. Very informative.

Good distillation MH... but I fear, as is often the case on this forum, that some people are not actually interested in "working the problem" but more so in venting various frustrations of their own and trying to show how rebellious they are. Nice try though!
simply theresa

climber
Yosemite
Sep 1, 2010 - 04:05pm PT
Hey, graniteclimber, thanks for that reference. So, that is the answer to why hang gliding is permitted, but base jumping is not. Matches what I heard anecdotally from the guy who was the Judge during that period of time.

He told me recently that as a former paratrooper, he initially supported allowing BASE jumping in the park, but recognized that in order to manage that use along with all the others there would have to be certain rules put in place. They set up a trial period, and the BASE jumpers 'blew it'. Those were his words, and he shook his head with frustration (maybe disgust?) when he said it. The BASE community managed to alienate a powerful supporter right off the bat. Now, he said, he doesn't care. Something about 'getting what they deserve.'

What I thought was interesting from the OP's first 'rant' was this:

"When BASE was legal in the park the sport was not ready for it. Now we are ready for it ..."

What does that mean - being 'ready for it'?

As an outsider, it does seem like the sport has matured. At some point, I could see someone working WITH NPS might be able to bridge the topic of 'giving the sport another try', and re-opening the possibility of legal BASE in the park. Unfortunately, every "F*@# the Rangers" comment or post takes one giant step back from that option.

After seeing what fostering a sense of cooperation and community can do every single year at the Facelift, I just don't get the "hate on NPS" strategy as a way to accomplish the goal of getting BASE allowed in the Park.
AndyG

climber
San Diego, CA
Sep 1, 2010 - 04:25pm PT


...police officers that mix it up sometimes wind up on temp or permanent disability, very costly to the tax payers.

Understatement of the year. almost every time you read an article describing the police doing something there is a line or two to the effect that "one officer suffered minor injuries...", which actually means "After breaking his fingernail, officer f*t***d went on temp disability for two weeks of paid vacation at The River with his powerboat."

Andy
wbw

climber
'cross the great divide
Sep 1, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
Pretty lame for any CLIMBER to suggest that if you don't like how much of a hassle it is to jump from El Cap, go somewhere else. I've always thought it was totally worth the hassle, as a CLIMBER, and I bet a base guy would think likewise.

The view must be even wilder at 32 ft./(sec.)(sec.) .
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 1, 2010 - 04:43pm PT
As an outsider, it does seem like the sport has matured. At some point, I could see someone working WITH NPS might be able to bridge the topic of 'giving the sport another try', and re-opening the possibility of legal BASE in the park. Unfortunately, every "F*@# the Rangers" comment or post takes one giant step back from that option.

Word. And for any ranger reading this thread, those are going to be the posts which stick out and are remembered the best.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
Nowhere
Sep 1, 2010 - 04:49pm PT
Matches what I heard anecdotally from the guy who was the Judge during that period of time.

He told me recently that as a former paratrooper, he initially supported allowing BASE jumping in the park, but recognized that in order to manage that use along with all the others there would have to be certain rules put in place. They set up a trial period, and the BASE jumpers 'blew it'. Those were his words, and he shook his head with frustration (maybe disgust?) when he said it. The BASE community managed to alienate a powerful supporter right off the bat. Now, he said, he doesn't care. Something about 'getting what they deserve.'

Theresa, thanks for sharing that. It ties into this post on the other thread.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1252206&msg=1255037#msg1255037

Eventually, his father agreed to represent him, and his father proved to the prosecutor that they couldn't charge him with "illegal hang-gliding" because the base rig had no frame. The park service then changed the charges to "illegal Parachuting".
David's father then discovered that the parachuting law (at the time) stated that it was illegal "to parachute into a national park from a place originating outside of the national park" - that presumably being an airplane. David's father was sure they could get the case dismissed, since he had jumped from inside the park.
Shortly thereafter, two other base-jumpers were arrested, so they made the case against all three on the same day. The judge threw the case out of court because all three jumpers had made the jump from inside the park, thus the law, as stated, was not applicable (at that time).

As they were getting ready to leave, the judge asked to see the 3 base-jumpers in his quarters. They thought for sure they were going to get an a$$-chewing, but when they got inside, they got a surprise.

The judge was an ex-smokejumper, and told them he approved of what they were doing! They all shook hands, and left the judges quarters.
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Sep 1, 2010 - 04:54pm PT
One of the guys who did the original 1966 El Cap. BASE jump was killed doing the same thing in the New River Gorge. Statistically, it is 5-8 times more dangerous than skydiving, for two reasons. One, the jumps are from a much lower altitude, and one generally has only 5-10 seconds to open the shute. Two, the jumper is too close what he is jumping off of.

Ordinary skydiving shutes are designed to open and deploy with a higher velocity than what is ordinarily attained by BASE jumping. A typical skydiving place would never permit jumps under such conditions, as they would be subject to law suits.

True, the NPS overreacted against Ammon, but they have limited resources, and if BASE jumping were more widely done, they would have to deal with more injuries and fatalities. All it takes is one 18 yr old to "cream in" (skydiving lingo for hitting the ground with an unopened shute) and some distraught parent suing the NPS.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 1, 2010 - 04:56pm PT
Perhaps the saving grace of climbing is that it imparts skills that are useful for rescuing unskilled park users.

Still, climbing should be viewed as a privilege not a right, as we DO alter the environment.
elcap-pics

Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
Sep 1, 2010 - 05:43pm PT
Yo... those of you who are hoping to promote Base in the park need to try to be making alliances here and not enemies.

All the bravado and bragadossia and insults are not the way to do it. You need every bit of support you can garner and as others have so rationally pointed out, you are not making any supporters here or in the NPS by all this FU stuff. It may sound cool or hard core but it actually works against your cause and makes you sound something less the credible.

I remember DF calling out from the crowd to the Supt. at the C4 dedication a few of years ago .... the Supt. was surprised but said "come to my office and we will discuss it". I hear DF never showed up! Imagine if you, Base 1361, or you Riley, were the one to get the call to go talk to the NPS about legalizing Base in the park and associated matters. Would you show up wearing your "Fcuk the LEO's" Tshirt? Is that the way you would impress them? If you want them to listen to, and respect your opinions, or change policies, then you need to show them some respect in return! I can think of no worse way to get support than the way you are doing it here.
BASE1361

climber
F*#k the LEO's
Sep 1, 2010 - 07:17pm PT
Norton: Ask any police officer and they will tell you if a suspect takes their taser they have the right to shoot the suspect using deadly force. The officer is mearly matching the suspects deadly for with equal deadly force.

Fet: I know 100% you cannot see my canopy once it opens.

Fattrad: Where is the necessary force needed to subdue someone who has no weapon, shows no deadly force against the arresting officer?

Graniteclimber: Giving them Ideas? they already now make it a permitted activity to hike the cables to 1/2 dome. How much longer til they realize climbers are costing them $$$ on El Cap rescues that it's now a permitted activity to climb El Cap?

Who's park is it? the NPS or ours? the public

Graniteclimber.... good research on the topic. I know that you could never "drive a pickup truck" to the exit. Glad you looked into this.

MH: I don't have time to address all your individual questions but you make some very solid points of view.

Canyoncat: no comment

Simply Thresa: The advances in gear over the years is night and day of what they were jumping back in the 60's. And today there are more organizations then prior. There is the ABP (American Backcountry Parachutist Association, CJAA (Cliff Jumpers of America Association) I did mention to one member of the community talking with the Access Fund, not sure what all came of that.

Aspendougy: no comment. You have no idea what your talking about with delays, gear and the two different sports. What you use in BASE is different from eliptical parachutes. You think El Cap is a 5-10 second delay? Think again.

Elcap pics: Tom..... It's not just about BASE jumping. I would go to any meeting and help out in any way I could. It's about personal freedoms. I pay my park service fee like everyone else. Even b4 I got into BASE when I was climbing full time in the park.

I'm pissed off at the constant abuse from park rangers treatment of not just BASE jumpers but climbers too. Lets forget about BASE jumping for one second... Ammon was a climber long before BASE. He and others have been maced, thrown in jail, harassed way to long. The LEo's are not allowed on the pizza deck anymore due to a rugby fight that broke out and the LEO's started macing people on the pizza deck. innocent familys got maced due to over zealous LEO's. So unfortunately the bad LEO's give the attitude of F*#K the LEO's. There are good rangers out there that do a respectable job.

This treatment of the people who really own the park.... the public has gone on for to long. Something needs to change in the treatment of not just BASE jumpers, but climbers and the general public.

I respect the LEO's and rangers who do a respectful job and respect the public. But just because you wear a uniform with a badge does not mean I give you blind respect because of your badge. It is a two way streak here Tom.
BASE1361

climber
Yosemite Valley National Park
Sep 1, 2010 - 07:24pm PT
http://www.latalkradio.com/...ardknocks-082810.mp3

Interview with Ammon.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Sep 1, 2010 - 07:50pm PT
Last night in Utah a homeowner held a burglar at bay with a barbecue fork until the police arrived.



They tased him.



Wonder if they said;
"Stick the fork in him. He's done."
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