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| Messages 1 - 73 of total 73 in this topic |
apogee
climber
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$250 opening bid????
Hang on a second, lemmee look at my rack....
I'm a millionaire!!!!!!!111111
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utahman912
Social climber
SLC, UT
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I have one from way back that has the "Chouinard" on the gate. Not sure when it was made.
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Larry
Trad climber
Bisbee
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Verified by an email. Now that's authenticity!
I once found one of these lying on the rock in the Buttermilks. I have a pretty near collection of all Diamond C carabiners up to about Y2K, I think.
No wait, mine says "Alcoa" on it. Is that good, value-wise?
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Yeah, my portfolio...er, rack, just shot up too!
"Hand Forged" is stretching it a bit, though. The carabiner bodies arrived from Alcoa and had the gates assembled at the tin shed. But they were mass-forged elsewhere -- certainly not Ventura -- and I doubt it was hand work.
Wish I still had one of the even older generation of forgings. Then I could retire.
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Ropeboy
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Over priced. I have a bunch of those I got in 68. I still climb with them and enjoy them but don't consider them collectible.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Does any one have Chouinard biners with the following markings
Chouinard 1700 kG USA
Chouinard USA 2100 Kg
Chouinard Alcoa 7075
and knows the dates of manufacture? I gave them all to Ken Yager.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Here's the original Chouinard Biner, we use to call them crabs.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Now that's a carabiner!
Completely simple, clean lines, smooth gate with no flanges.
Its simplicity makes it that much more obvious that any large force will run mostly along the back not the gate, which was the breakthrough idea of a pear shape.
I like the clean lines of some of the new wire-gate biners, too.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Here's a shot with a scale for reference;
Interestingly enough I just noticed the "S" stamped on it, must of been my buddy Steves' from BITD.
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ec
climber
ca
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DR, I agree 'hand forged' is a stretch.
By the photos it is clearly a machine forge. And the gate was most likely made from bar stock milled on the '4-station' gate machine in Ventura. Starting bid should be .99!!
 ec
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Somewhere I have a 'biner that only has "Alcoa" on it and no other markings. Found it on a ledge on the Captain many, many years ago. Where is that sucka?
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Rob Roy Ramey
Trad climber
Colorado
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I use one as my chalk bag carabiner and therefore use it every time I go climbing or bouldering. It is pressed into more serious service when my rack runs low on carabiners. Yes, it is an antique, but it adds a touch of class.
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WBraun
climber
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250 bucks for a carabiner?
See how much you can detach yourself from your worldly ways >>> Throw it into the dumpster.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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The seller is smoking crack. Getting some one to sucker up $25 would be styling. More like $10 would be the norm. Especially as those came 10 years after the original Alcoas. I have 3 of the original Alcoas not to mention 3 Bedyans which I think are far more collectable.
Funny story, last summer I was up at a crag hat some sport climbers bolted up real good. While scoping out a trad line I spied a pin with a biner on it. I climbed the route, which was not bad, pulled the pin and bagged a Bedyan that had probably been sitting there for 40 years. And the sport climbers thought they discovered the crag.
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ec
climber
ca
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BTW, anything that was hand forged was most likely stamped with a mark, i.e., "diamond c," Not 'Chouinard.'
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Larry
Trad climber
Bisbee
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Too bad that hollow job broke when clipped to bolt hangers.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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I've a few of those too. I think many of us do.
I don't think that's a '68 'biner. Didn't the gates shut flush until the mid '70s?
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ec
climber
ca
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The seller 'George' responded via email that Jeff Maudlin @ BD told him that he was unsure of the vintage, but also told him that they were hand forged by Henneck and Yvon; "the real deal." Where's Henneck, he posts here, eh? I still don't buy it.
ec
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Well, I might have been interested, but eBay says it's "used." Heh.
Curt
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Yeah the hollow ones...Even Salewa made 'em as well, were reputed to cut on bolt hangars...Yowza...
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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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I thought the first one had a little hand print on it? Does the alcoa have the hand?
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Here are a few pages from the 1968 Chouinard catalog. This is when they introduced their new DROP-FORGED 'biner. If I have a moment I will call Frost to get his opinion on how the original 1957-onward 'biners were made.
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utahman912
Social climber
SLC, UT
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This is a late-60s, early 70s vintage... I think
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Larry's post of the Chouinard biners makes it easy to identify.
I have what looks like #2 and #3.
The oldest model I have has 4,000 lbs stamped on it and the spine is flat on 2 sides.
Oh and the initials are "RV"
Edit: Now I see I have the mid seventies "Standard model"
Damn.
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scuffy b
climber
Eastern Salinia
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The Utahman biner looks more like early 80s
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altieboo
Boulder climber
Livermore, Ca
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I have a Chouinard-USA 2100.
Is this model actually worth a bit of money? I feel like the $250 on that Ebay listing is way absurd.
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utahman912
Social climber
SLC, UT
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I'm thinking mine was a bit before this improved 2200 Kg 1975 model... cuz I got some straight spined 2800 Kg P.Allains in 75 instead of the Chouinards.
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scuffy b
climber
Eastern Salinia
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No, it's later. Your 1975 is the next one after the Chouinard/Salewa,
and before any ovals.
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bluering
Trad climber
CA
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I got one like Utahman's. Found it on the ground at Phantom Spires, near a roadside boulder problem on Wright's Road.
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utahman912
Social climber
SLC, UT
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before any ovals
That makes sense
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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Might be worth if it had free shipping?
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Utahman's first photo is of an early 80's Chouinard biner. His second photo is of a mid-70's Chouinard biner.
Bruce
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utahman912
Social climber
SLC, UT
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only question is... what box are my old ones in? :-)
oh, and what's the market for 1975 Brevettes? ;-)
jb
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Not aware that any of Yvon's carabiners were "hand forged" ... especially circa 1968.
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Don Lauria
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
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Sorry Doug, I jumped in without paging down.
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Thorgon
Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
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I have 18 of the 'Hollows', they were always scary when accidently weighted while they were open! Then you couldn't close the gate, eeekkk and I only weighed 165 back then, Ha.....
I know......yer gonna die.......
Thor
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SGropp
Mountain climber
Eastsound, Wa
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I really doubt any aluminum carabiners were hand forged, at least for commercial purposes.
A lot of highly stressed and critical parts are both hot and cold forged by industry out of specific aluminum alloys, but only under tightly controlled conditions and with heavy closed die presses or hammers. The temperature range that aluminum can be hot forged at is quite narrow, working it much above or below that range can cause all kinds of problems.
The relatively primitive equipment and set up used at Chouinard Equipment in the early years [ at least according to their published origin myth ] simply wouldn't be up to hand forging a reliable aluminum carabiner IMHO.
It is possible prototypes were forged by hand . If there were, they would be actually worth something, just for historical value.
I do know that when the first Chouinard carabiners came on the market , they were head and shoulders above anything else available.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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250 bucks? That's ridiculous, I got 5 of the same biners some guy threw in the mix for free when I bought 3 MOAC nuts and a bunch of 1st generation stoppers off him for 25 bucks on Ebay.
Tell ya what, I'll sell one of mine for $125 bucks. That's 50% off suggested retail price. Sale ends August 30, place your orders now.
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Mimi
climber
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If you ever get the opportunity to witness a drop forge in action, don't miss out. When visiting the Clog factory in Wales a long time ago, we were treated to a demonstration of a figure eight being slammed into shape starting with a short fat rod of aluminum taken from an oven. The biners were made the same way with a different mold of course and another piece of extruded stock. The edges would be snipped off and then they were tossed into a tumbler for polishing. The gates were then put on. I still have my souvey figure eight which is stamped 'Second' because of some invisible blem.
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Acer
Big Wall climber
AZ
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 7, 2010 - 01:38pm PT
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Nice insight.
The Ebay Biner looks really FAT on the curve of the major axis.
I would like to have a full set of biners.
I have them starting from the late 70s.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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knock knock Hennek-you there?
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Dennis Hennek
climber
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The earliest carabiners were drop forged from aluminum stock then trimmed by Alcoa. The finishing, milling of the gate and body, and the final assembly were done at the Skunk Works in Burbank and later in Ventura. The Lost Arrows were drop forged and trimmed in LA to produce what we called blanks that were then hand forged and ground into the various sizes of finished pitons. The hammers were also drop forged and trimmed in LA. Yvon then used the rock hammer heads which he hand forged into the earliest ice hammers. The so called "forged carabiner" on e-bay shouldn't be confused with the hand forging done by Chouinard, Salathe, Long, Cook, and others. The first lost arrows that Yvon forged were made from flat bar stock, anvil, hammer, and coal forge.
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ec
climber
ca
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Thx Dennis!!
ec
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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I haven't had time till now, to post some earlier information that showed up on Steve's Chouinard 1968 thread. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=382806
First: posted by Brian in SLC is a great photo of the two earliest types of Chouinard carabiner. He believes the Alcoa predated the D on the right, that only is marked Chouinard.
My timeline for the earlier D's is taken from Chouinard catalog histories.
Carabiners: from their product history in the catalogs, Chouinard made his own Carabiners (in Ventura) from 1957 to 1968.
I am sure there were different runs of these. I own some that only say Chouinard, but one was marked Chouinard on one side, and 820 Alcoa 7075 on the other.
1968-1972 they went to a new style that Salewa made. It says Chouinard/Salewa on one-side and 2200 KP on the other. Initially these were not tested for strength, but later ones were tested and stamped that on the gate.
1974 carabiner production went back to US and I think----stayed here.
Those D's are marked: Chouinard USA on one side and 4000 LBS on the other.
By the late 70's the carabiner styles increased to ovals, hollow ovals, and a new D.
Value??? What a collector will pay----but not anywhere close to $250.00.
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TrundleBum
Trad climber
Las Vegas
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$250.00 LMAO
Maybe I do have a retirement fund !
(I have a half dozen)
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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The nose and the lettering keep growing steadily...
When Yvon first made a carabiner that he would call his own, was it a "modified D" configuration?
Anyone know the duration of production of each generation starting in 1957? Seems like five or six with the 68 version being the fourth generation.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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The 1975 GPIW catalog lays out the carabiner succession all the way until 1974 when the fifth generation became a cold formed product pictured below.
The previous four designs were drop forged bodies. The adjective hand forged is a misnomer. The carabiners were finished by hand as Dennis Henneck described until they were made in Germany.
From 1972 to 1974 Salewa made the Chouinard carabiner. The X's are my gear stamp.
Yvon initially went to Alcoa and worked with their engineers to design the first Chouinard carabiner that ironically didn't say Chouinard.
Once Tom came aboard to design and engineer the dies that would allow mass production of Chouinard hardware, he reworked the initial design into the "modified D." This body shape minimized carabiner shift while aiding and key areas were thickened to yield a better gate open strength. This version said both Chouinard and Chouinard/Alcoa as best I can determine and may be considered as two versions.
I asked Tom about the succession of designs and he mentioned that every several years the dies would wear out and that he would tweak the design a little to improve it before making the next batch. The 1968 to 1972 version wasn't very different than the one above to my eye but I think it rounds out the five generations shown in this thread.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 13, 2010 - 11:38am PT
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Could anyone post a shot of the version that is stamped both Chouinard and Alcoa 7075? I think that would be the last of them...
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Aug 13, 2010 - 12:00pm PT
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Steve, the photo of mine that Fritz reposted above has "Alcoa" on one side, and, "Chouinard" on the other of both carabiners on the left.
My bet is biners just marked as "Alcoa" without "Chouinard" are pretty darn hard to find...(never seen or heard of such).
Cheers!
-Brian in SLC
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 13, 2010 - 03:06pm PT
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I am trying to sort out whether or not two different carabiners carried the ALCOA stamp, one with 7075, one without.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Aug 13, 2010 - 04:31pm PT
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hey..what's this interesting climbing thread doing here?
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Aug 13, 2010 - 05:09pm PT
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I am trying to sort out whether or not two different carabiners carried the ALCOA stamp, one with 7075, one without.
Might just be random. These biners were just made from chopped up rod stock from Alcoa? My bet is some didn't have the material designation on the rod, and, that wouldn't really account for a difference per se?
Are you thinking there were early Chouinard carabiners made from Alcoa stock that was a different material, or, just marked without "7075"?
Cheers, Steve!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 15, 2010 - 01:08pm PT
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This singularly celebrated carabiner has gone through 8-10 distinct die changes to go along with the five distinct designs. It should be possible to show them all on this thread as lots of people have biners to show.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 28, 2010 - 08:54pm PT
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So here is the Dolthut ad for the third Alcoa design release from Summit May 1960. One side shown only.
You guys that have Alcoas could you see if yours have the same markings.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Aug 28, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
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Gentleman just added this to his $250 e-bay listing.
"JUST ADDED
YOU ARE NOW NOT ONLY BIDDING ON THIS HISTORIC PIECE, BUT A FAMOUS PIECE THAT HAS BROUGHT SO MUCH CONTROVERSY IN THE CLIMBING COMMUNITY, THAT IT HAS ITS OWN BLOG. $250 IS NOW A STEAL FOR SUCH A FAMOUS PIECE. I AM ADDING THE LINK TO THE BLOG SITE SO YOU CAN CHECK IT OUT FOR YOURSELF!
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1235390 "
LOL!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 29, 2010 - 11:22am PT
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I had some dealings with that seller and he is clueless as to actual value. Great thread anyhow!
Nobody is going to even reach $100 since those biners didn't belong to any climber of record.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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Nov 21, 2010 - 06:13pm PT
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With the onset of winter weather (snowy & cold as Hades in S. Idaho) and a little extra time: I’ve been doing research.
My reference sources are: information on Super Topo, some great help by Clint Cummins, my own memory of carabiners I’ve acquired since 1970, and my collection of Chouinard and Great Pacific Iron Works catalogs.
My catalog set is: 1968, winter 70, 1972, 75-76, 78, 80, 83-85, and 88-89. Chouinard Equipment was purchased by Black Diamond in 1989.
What I have tried to achieve is a “timeline” of when various models of Chouinard carabiners were sold. The great help here is: Until 1984 Chouinard catalogs all had: A History of Chouinard Firsts. The history showed when each significant new piece of gear was introduced.
Unfortunately I own no Chouinard carabiners that predate the 1968 catalog. From previous postings and the Chouinard catalog timeline, we know Chouinard carabiner production started in 1957. It appears there were three-models produced prior to 1968, but all were marked Alcoa.
Here is a link to a thread on ST that has much good information on pre-1968 Chouinard carabiners. http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1235390/Chouinard-Carabiner-Hand-Forged-in-Ventura-Circa-1968
Here is the last Chouinard catalog timeline I could find. It is from the 1983 catalog. Later catalogs do not show the timeline, perhaps to reduce liability for older products failing.
In my photos of carabiners, I note information embossed or stamped on the carabiners in Bold, model of carabiner, dates of production, and weight of carabiner from my digital postal scale.
Carabiner page from Chouinard 1968 catalog.
In what is usually known as the Chouinard 1972 catalog, the 1968 model carabiner is noted as having production moved to the Salewa factory, which was in West Germany.
In June 1972 Chouinard issued a recall on the Chouinard/Salewa carabiners. All recalled carabiners were tested and the gates were stamped tested. All subsequent production of the Chouinard/Salewa carabiner had the gate stamped tested.
Advertisement in Off Belay Magazine, June 1972.
Chiloe posted a photo of one of the very first Tested Chouinard/Salewa carabiner in the Eiger carabiner thread and has kindly allowed me to show it here as well.
From Chiloe: Others, however (I think in the first round of testing), were stamped with a much less distinct "T" before the 2200kp label. You can see the "T" right before the "2" on this one.
After the initial batch of Tested Chouinard/Salewa carabiners were stamped T, later tested carabiners were stamped tested on the gates.
The above carabiners were purchased in 1972, returned to Chouinard for testing, and received back with the tested stamp on the gates.
I have acquired some other Chouinard/Salewa carabiners that have W. Germany stamped on the opposite side of the gate. I am guessing these are from later production and give these a production date of 1973.
The Chouinard timeline notes a new carabiner style in 1974. It is described in the 1975 Great Pacific Iron Works catalog.
(In 1972 Chouinard named the climbing hardware branch of his business: Great Pacific Iron Works).
The real 1974 carabiner.
At this point I get into carabiners that don’t show up in any of my catalogs. Clint Cummins has shared information on two models that are transitional from the 1974 D carabiner to a new model D that debuted in 1978.
The first transitional model looks just like the 1974 D, except the 4000 lbs is replaced with 2100KG.
I do not own an example of the second transitional 2100 KG D, but it looks just like the carabiner that was introduced in 1978.
In the 1978 Great Pacific Iron Works catalog, a new model D is introduced. Clint Cummins caught the fact that the catalog photo was however of the earlier, large nose D.
Note how the nose of the 1978 D is lower in profile than the carabiner shown in the 1978 catalog. The catalog copy notes “the gate latch width has now been made narrower---------.”
In the 1978 Great Pacific Iron Works catalog two entirely new carabiners are also introduced: The Oval and the Featherweight.
The Chouinard timeline shows the Featherweight date of origin as 1977. It is made of hollow aluminum tubing and is very similar to hollow carabiners that Salewa came out with at about the same date.
Salewa also produced the hollow carabiners for Robbins, but it appears the Chouinard Featherweights were produced in the U.S.
The 1980 Great Pacific Iron Works catalog asserts the Featherweights are made from aluminum tubing produced for Boeing.
The Chouinard Oval shows up in 1978.
Ok! I will post more timeline on Chouinard biners produced after 1980 in the near future.
Anyone that wants to trade pre-1968 Chouinard Alcoa carabiners for any two of those I've posted------or maybe for unused pre-1975 Chouinard Lost Arrows: please contact me. I have a decent number of most of these biners. I would also be interested in trading for the carabiner that Clint Cummins shows in his photo.
This information and more on 1980's Chouinard carabiners is now in a "Stand Alone" Thread.
Chouinard carabiner Timeline & Identification Guide- 1968-89
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1327553&tn=0#msg1327553
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 21, 2010 - 06:23pm PT
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Sweet Chouinard progression!
I wonder where the Featherweights were made?
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Nov 21, 2010 - 08:18pm PT
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Very nice work in putting this together - thanks for sharing.
Especially with your good photos and biner collection in excellent condition.
I have an extra of that 2100KG transitional to trade, but it is not in as nice condition as your other biners, so hopefully you can find one that is not as scratched.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Nov 22, 2010 - 09:55am PT
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Steve & Clint: Glad you both like my Chouinard biner timeline.
I deeply appreciate the amount of old gear information you each know and share on this forum.
Steve: Re. I wonder where the Featherweights were made?
For now I'll believe Ventura, CA.
Clint: I'm going to take a "rain check" on your 2100KG biner for now.
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Farley
Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 17, 2016 - 07:41pm PT
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Chouinard carabiner circa 1957-1958. Found on a Valley climb, well-used, belonging to the maker.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 17, 2016 - 07:49pm PT
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Somebody mentioned recently that Steve Roper "acquired" a bunch of carabiners from Yvon Chouinard and I believe that we have the missing snap link right here.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Dec 19, 2016 - 09:11am PT
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Farley? Re the carabiner you post a photo of, with YC on it??
Does it have markings on its opposite side & can you share a photo of that too?
Also, I'd like your permission to repost your photo on the Chouinard Carabiner Timeline & Identification thread Clint mentions? I think it deserves to be in the first post of that thread.
Thanks,
Fritz
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 19, 2016 - 09:20am PT
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How much does it weigh?
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Dec 19, 2016 - 09:38am PT
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I have one Chouinard carabiner that is apparently from the 1957-1968 run. It does say "Chouinard" on the other side however, so I guess it's probably from sometime later on in that series.
Curt
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couchmaster
climber
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Dec 19, 2016 - 09:51am PT
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Was pawing through my gear yesterday and pulled out both a Chouinard/Salewa and a Robbins/Salewa (the hollow biner) mixed in with a bunch of old stuff in a box of old climbing gear. Found some Peck Crackers down in there too!
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Dec 19, 2016 - 11:21am PT
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I don't care if Jesus Christ used it when he put up a 5.16.
I would rather spend $250 on an antique Persian or Afghani tribal rug
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Dec 20, 2016 - 06:21am PT
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I don't care if Jesus Christ used it when he put up a 5.16.
He didn't make it. He ended up stuck on the crux.
Curt
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