donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 18, 2010 - 08:34pm PT
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In the mountains with uncertain weather time is a critical factor. That includes approach time and descent time.
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The Chief
Trad climber
from the Land where Free Mongols still roam!
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Jul 18, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
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"Anywhere in the Sierra, if one hears the roar of distance thunder, it is most advisable that they descend immediately to safer and protected ground or face the wrath of Mighty Zues.
Norman Clyde
PS... 3.5 hour approach?? WTF? Were you attempting it in a wheel chair without wheels?
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Ron Anderson
Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
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Jul 18, 2010 - 08:40pm PT
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I guess they could have all kept quiet,,, would have sped up that whole natural selection thing.....
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Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
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Jul 18, 2010 - 08:45pm PT
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Hey Corn Starch,
It's OK to be theoretical but even fiction novelists stop short of being what they write.
Cragly is a hard nut but has delivered. Like the man says, let's see some acumen in the field. [the non "virtual" field]
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Mimi
climber
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Jul 18, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
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Bert, as we say in my neck of the woods...tough titty said the little bitty kitty. Do you really expect some stranger to return those cams? It's booty now.
Sometimes a little gear is the price you pay for your fun and safety. Get used to the idea if you're going to be an alpine climber.
I bet Donini would love to have all those rap anchors back. Kor has almost no old hardwear because he left it all out there. That's what climbers do, successful or knott.
Oh, and by the way, learn to respect the weather reports. No excuse for missing a weather report these days.
Glad you're alive!
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Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
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Jul 18, 2010 - 08:51pm PT
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Mimi takes the ball ! ! !
Outcome unsure but the home team is on the offensive !
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 18, 2010 - 08:51pm PT
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Alright, I'll tell you exactly what I would've done if I were anywhere 1st to 3rd pitch on Third Pillar. Under approaching thunder and lightning. I would've descended past the base over to the trees under the east facing ridge (to the west). That would've been a secure hangout either till the storm passed or until evening (worse case scenario) upon which Sierra summer storms abate nine times out of ten and then (a) climbed or (b) hiked out the descent approach. THAT from another local. So, Bertrand, that is an alternative data point for your reasoning to contrast with Cragman's.
BTW, Bertrand, around the time you climbed, I also checked the point forecast for the area (the Hulk, however) and remember seeing 20%. No way to prove it, tho, otherwise I'd be shoving it in Cragman's face. Oh, and 20% means just that, one in five.
Good luck next time. Take Cragman's beta as one data point, not as the Gospel. That's my beta.
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Mimi
climber
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Jul 18, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
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To be clear, we're playing rugby ay what?
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locker
Social climber
COLORADO
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Jul 18, 2010 - 08:53pm PT
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LOL!!!...
SECOND, "LINE of the DAY"...
"WTF? Were you attempting it in a wheel chair without wheels?"...
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Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
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Jul 18, 2010 - 08:55pm PT
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Google Earth is the last refuge of scoundrels. Show some pictures Syrup.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 18, 2010 - 08:57pm PT
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The weather respects no man's ego. On a commiting climb, you should learn to read the aviation forecasts for the area. They are called "prognostics" and they are really accurate. Lightning is a very random killer and doesn't check your climbing resume.
Re: Booty. You leave it--don't expect to get it back. If I have to leave something to get my a$$ down from a dangerous situation, I consider it money well spent, and hope the finder will make good use of it as well. In a long climbing career, you'll find as much as you leave.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2010 - 09:01pm PT
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I don't want my ego getting in the way of good advice from those who offer it.
You guys seem to know what you are talking about.
I might have received TC's first comment better if it had acknowledged that even smart and reasonably experienced climbers can make decisions that end up bad.
Here is the sky about 1 hr before the rain started. Would you guys have bailed at this moment? Right variation of P3. (incidentally the thin fingers above and left of the small roof 30' above me is where the gear was left, if anyone wants it.)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 18, 2010 - 09:03pm PT
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"would have sped up that whole natural selection thing"
This argument wouldn't work on Cragman as he is a proud Creationist, perhaps like his brother, Brennan. (Brennan, correct me if I'm wrong.)
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Lissiehoya
climber
Saint Louis, MO
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Jul 18, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
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Wow. This is just... wow.
First, my thoughts on this whole thing is that a weather report that said 20% chance of thunderstorms would not stop me from climbing. Actually, it probably would stop me from climbing, but I can see how it wouldn't stop someone else from climbing. (My fiance, who y'all know as Dirka, would for sure be out there if the forecast only said 20%.) And it most definitely wouldn't stop me from doing something else outdoors. But, that said, the gear was sacrificed to your adventure and I think ultimately your request for it back is what caused this flame-fest.
Second, Chief, you should be ashamed for your PS comment about the 3.5 hour approach that merely piggybacks off of donini's comment, repeating what he said in a slightly different way. If you're going to criticize someone, at least be original about it instead of echoing what other posters are saying.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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Jul 18, 2010 - 09:06pm PT
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OK. Bertrand’s party: had rainwear, survived the storm, and got off the mountain.
Let’s not rip on them, except for style points. They lost some points by whining for their bail-out gear back.
I’m proud of them for doing it and surviving, although I will sympathize with Cragman: since he has to fetch the people or bodies that don’t self-rescue.
I am a great believer in: “the first church of weather reports-----scared of lightning sect.”
On the other hand: Mr. Negativity-----High Fructose-----let’s see some climbing stories and first-hand photos. Your climbing BS is lacking credibility. Silos don’t count.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 18, 2010 - 09:08pm PT
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Bert wrote-
"Here is the sky about 1 hr before the rain started. Would you guys have bailed at this moment?"
(1) Were you hearing any thunder in the background? (2) How much experience in that area did you already have under your belt? Comparable to a smart local's? emphasis on smart, (3) Were you packing necessary gear, headlamps, rainsuit, etc. to provide options to begin with?
Remind me, how did you exit and at what time?
EDIT
Cragman- You're just b.s. ing now. Careful, you're going to wind up in Klimmer's camp.
EDIT 9:10p "Except mine is augmented with opportunites to make someone's day if I am able to return their gear to them. I feel better about keeping gear if I have no means to find out who's it was or no way of getting it back to them."
Nicely put. My ethic, too. Think of it as a new and higher standard. I do. -Like not pissing all over El Cap if you want.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2010 - 09:08pm PT
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BDC, I have almost the same Booty philosophy. Except mine is augmented with opportunites to make someone's day if I am able to return their gear to them. I feel better about keeping gear if I have no means to find out who's it was or no way of getting it back to them.
If somebody out there has my gear and wants to return it, I won't turn it down. That doesn't mean I am holding my breath for it.
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locker
Social climber
COLORADO
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Jul 18, 2010 - 09:08pm PT
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"I don't want my ego getting in the way of good advice from those who offer it.
You guys seem to know what you are talking about."...
Showing RESPECT...
What more can you ask???...
Seems like a "Fine young chap" to me...
He fuked up a LITTLE and LIVED to tell about it...
Then he caught some SH!T on SuperTopo and LIVED TO TELL ABOUT IT...
LOL!!!...
Hasn't he been SPANKED enough???...
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Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
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Jul 18, 2010 - 09:09pm PT
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Jeez man,
Looks like you were having fun and things went South.
If I believed the weather forecast every time, instead of following my nose and past experience, half of what got done wouldn't have been done. Go out and get in and get out.
The mighty prognosticators didn't fall out of a tree knowing it all. Many laughs lie in wait for after during an epic.
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sempervirens
Trad climber
Trinity County
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Jul 18, 2010 - 09:10pm PT
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Bertrand, good on ya for posting and putting up with the lashings. We all learn. Lots of good advice, most of it we have all heard many times before. But that doesn't mean we always heed good advice.
Those admonishing you for being egotistical should see the mirror. THey're using your courage to tell the truth as an oppurtunity to pump themself. I don't think you need to be scolded when you're exposing the situation in the first place.
I say Cragman is giving good advice sincerely. The chief is wanking himself.
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