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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 18, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
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Booty is a subjective word, depending on whether one has a chance to return the recovered gear to its original owner. I don't ever expect to see my gear again if I ever leave it behind.
That said, if you climbed the difficult right variations of Pitches 3 and 4 of Third Pillar of Dana this weekend (July 17/18) you would have encountered three cams that were left behind during Friday's 3-hour thunderstorm and an emergency escape.
If you recovered the gear and you would like to help it get back to the people who lost it please message me.
Three SLCD's placed near each other. I'll identify it. THANKS
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jul 18, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
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looks like someone had a very memorable epic! :)
Always wondered, does that light weight "Precip" stuff really keep you dry in a storm? Or is it really only fair weather storm gear. lol
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2010 - 09:05pm PT
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20% chance of "late afternoon" t-storms was the forecast for each of the last four days. We got an early start and would have finished before the rain if we didn't get so far off on the right. The rain started at 1pm.
Yeah, there were a few clouds floating overhead at 9am when we started climbing..but after hiking 3.5 hours and having looked forward to the climb, we decided to roll the dice. One would be tempted to say "never again" or "now we know better", but that is pretty stupid. Even though we epic'd, I don't think it was poor judgement to start the climb that day, given the facts available at that time.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 18, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
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"after hiking 3.5 hours and having looked forward to the climb, we decided to roll the dice. One would be tempted to say "never again" or "now we know better", but that is pretty stupid. Even though we epic'd, I don't think it was poor judgement to start the climb..."
Nicely put.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2010 - 10:39pm PT
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CM, You have a point with the weather forecast. I probably should have studied it more vigorously. I may have had my NOAA site calibrated for a location more to the west. It was calling for 20% chance in the afternoon; and my partner said he checked and found that it was 10% ( I have since concluded that he and I don't make the best team decisions together...I would rather go on my own analysis from now on).
It is an over-generalization to suggest that our thinking was dangerous. Any climber, after assessing the situation and taking inventory of his resources and confidence, will take certain risks. In fact, I believe that's one of the central elements of our sport. My partner and I each have 10+ years experience, and my partner has been guiding for 15 years. We believed that, should the weather turn (unlikely as it seemed, according to the weather info we had) we could still safely escape. And we eventually did find a situation that worked for us, the details of which are a different story. In the case of this climb, there was a confluence of many unlikely events-- and we paid the price by having a sh^tty time and losing some gear.
But thanks for your comment, I am stressed enough about it that I have been looking for constructive takeaways. Presented with the same situation, I think I would do it the same way next time--except I will double check that I have the right weather data!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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Cragman- And this, just after I decided to let the sleeping dog lie. Shame on you. You do like to stir up the hornet's nest with your fundamentalist Christian-styled black or white judgments.
Hey, I can't wait to see your family picture or pictures of the hominid dinosaur footprints, I'm sure they're going to set straight the scientists.
Your posts in this thread raise numerous arguments. For starters, I know you don't think you're the only Eastside climber yet it is as if you presume to speak for all of us.
Climbing is a "roll of the dice." An unroped solo of Third Pillar is a "roll of the dice." Do I really need to go on? C'mon.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 18, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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All locals here in the Eastern Sierra know that a forecast indicating 20%> Chance of TS's means shet is gonna fly, guaranteed. And means to stay home and enjoy the afternoon electrical light show.
Thanks Cragman, that is a valuable comment. And I did not know that. Quite seriously, I might like to take you up on the suggestion that I contact you for other regional information.
"The Chief"...[Edit, removal of abusive profanity] You have never met me, and despite my apparent misunderstanding of reconciling NOAA probabilities with Eastern Sierra reality, you don't need to classify everyone west of Hwy 49 as some n00b who is over his head. I have climbed all over North America and I take pride in making the right decisions in difficult situations. I always review for things to do better next time --including improving my understanding of your local weather. I don't think that's the profile of reckless climbers.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:28pm PT
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Oh my. Some weather rolled in on some climbers and now we got the East Side Nannies issuing the scolding.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:28pm PT
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3.5 hrs. of hiking- did one of you have a foot in a caste?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:29pm PT
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Bertrand- C'mon, don't cave to that arrogance who tends to see just about everything in black n white.
I'm also an East Sierran, pretty much a native. 20% means just that. And more. You could hear a warning for flash flood, too, and experience sun all day. Bottom line: it was a judgment call and you made it and these guys are playing monday morning quarterback.
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Scared Silly
Trad climber
UT
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:29pm PT
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Years ago I hiked into Clyde Minaret with a friend to do the south face. About 9am we saw clouds moving in. We watched and after talking to another group on the route we decided to continue with the idea that if it hit us we would all bail together. Near the top of the dihedral it cut lose - rain and lightning. But we were on the edge of the storm. It passed and with 20 minutes it quit raining. So we hung out for an hour to let things dry out and then decided to continued on. We topped out and then did the usual descent. When we got back to the base the other group was still trying to bail off, having one pitch left to go. Good fun in the Sierras.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:32pm PT
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About the 3.5 hours. That caught my eye, too. But that's not the gist of the thread.
Cragmans' (1) a local and (2) older. So this might mean he's free to choose optimal day, he's spoiled, he's softer, more mellow, more conservative than back in the day, all the above. All these factors could be taken into the thinking also.
Quote: "It passed and with 20 minutes it quit raining. So we hung out for an hour to let things dry out and then decided to continued on. We topped out and then did the usual descent."
This, too, is regular occurrence in the Sierra. (Unmentioned on the first page of this thread.) I've experienced this dozens of times.
Bertrand: You climbed. You lived. Now you have a story to tell the grandkids someday.
Suppose, Cragman, you related a story about how you climbed 3rd Pillar bitd solo unroped and on the 5th pitch got scared. And chose to share the story here at the Taco. Then some wiseacre posted saying that was reckless... that that action "could have gotten you killed," and "endangered the lives of SAR professionals." Would that be acceptable?
Get off it.
Save your talk of humility for the sheep. You love it: the infighting, the black and white judgement calls, the passive aggression.
Reminder: Can't wait for the footprints pictures. Looking forward to them!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:34pm PT
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In the mountains with uncertain weather time is a critical factor. That includes approach time and descent time.
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Mimi
climber
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:47pm PT
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Bert, as we say in my neck of the woods...tough titty said the little bitty kitty. Do you really expect some stranger to return those cams? It's booty now.
Sometimes a little gear is the price you pay for your fun and safety. Get used to the idea if you're going to be an alpine climber.
I bet Donini would love to have all those rap anchors back. Kor has almost no old hardwear because he left it all out there. That's what climbers do, successful or knott.
Oh, and by the way, learn to respect the weather reports. No excuse for missing a weather report these days.
Glad you're alive!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:51pm PT
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Alright, I'll tell you exactly what I would've done if I were anywhere 1st to 3rd pitch on Third Pillar. Under approaching thunder and lightning. I would've descended past the base over to the trees under the east facing ridge (to the west). That would've been a secure hangout either till the storm passed or until evening (worse case scenario) upon which Sierra summer storms abate nine times out of ten and then (a) climbed or (b) hiked out the descent approach. THAT from another local. So, Bertrand, that is an alternative data point for your reasoning to contrast with Cragman's.
BTW, Bertrand, around the time you climbed, I also checked the point forecast for the area (the Hulk, however) and remember seeing 20%. No way to prove it, tho, otherwise I'd be shoving it in Cragman's face. Oh, and 20% means just that, one in five.
Good luck next time. Take Cragman's beta as one data point, not as the Gospel. That's my beta.
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Mimi
climber
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:52pm PT
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To be clear, we're playing rugby ay what?
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 18, 2010 - 11:57pm PT
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The weather respects no man's ego. On a commiting climb, you should learn to read the aviation forecasts for the area. They are called "prognostics" and they are really accurate. Lightning is a very random killer and doesn't check your climbing resume.
Re: Booty. You leave it--don't expect to get it back. If I have to leave something to get my a$$ down from a dangerous situation, I consider it money well spent, and hope the finder will make good use of it as well. In a long climbing career, you'll find as much as you leave.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2010 - 12:01am PT
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I don't want my ego getting in the way of good advice from those who offer it.
You guys seem to know what you are talking about.
I might have received TC's first comment better if it had acknowledged that even smart and reasonably experienced climbers can make decisions that end up bad.
Here is the sky about 1 hr before the rain started. Would you guys have bailed at this moment? Right variation of P3. (incidentally the thin fingers above and left of the small roof 30' above me is where the gear was left, if anyone wants it.)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:03am PT
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"would have sped up that whole natural selection thing"
This argument wouldn't work on Cragman as he is a proud Creationist, perhaps like his brother, Brennan. (Brennan, correct me if I'm wrong.)
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Lissiehoya
climber
Saint Louis, MO
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:06am PT
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Wow. This is just... wow.
First, my thoughts on this whole thing is that a weather report that said 20% chance of thunderstorms would not stop me from climbing. Actually, it probably would stop me from climbing, but I can see how it wouldn't stop someone else from climbing. (My fiance, who y'all know as Dirka, would for sure be out there if the forecast only said 20%.) And it most definitely wouldn't stop me from doing something else outdoors. But, that said, the gear was sacrificed to your adventure and I think ultimately your request for it back is what caused this flame-fest.
Second, Chief, you should be ashamed for your PS comment about the 3.5 hour approach that merely piggybacks off of donini's comment, repeating what he said in a slightly different way. If you're going to criticize someone, at least be original about it instead of echoing what other posters are saying.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:06am PT
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OK. Bertrand’s party: had rainwear, survived the storm, and got off the mountain.
Let’s not rip on them, except for style points. They lost some points by whining for their bail-out gear back.
I’m proud of them for doing it and surviving, although I will sympathize with Cragman: since he has to fetch the people or bodies that don’t self-rescue.
I am a great believer in: “the first church of weather reports-----scared of lightning sect.”
On the other hand: Mr. Negativity-----High Fructose-----let’s see some climbing stories and first-hand photos. Your climbing BS is lacking credibility. Silos don’t count.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:08am PT
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Bert wrote-
"Here is the sky about 1 hr before the rain started. Would you guys have bailed at this moment?"
(1) Were you hearing any thunder in the background? (2) How much experience in that area did you already have under your belt? Comparable to a smart local's? emphasis on smart, (3) Were you packing necessary gear, headlamps, rainsuit, etc. to provide options to begin with?
Remind me, how did you exit and at what time?
EDIT
Cragman- You're just b.s. ing now. Careful, you're going to wind up in Klimmer's camp.
EDIT 9:10p "Except mine is augmented with opportunites to make someone's day if I am able to return their gear to them. I feel better about keeping gear if I have no means to find out who's it was or no way of getting it back to them."
Nicely put. My ethic, too. Think of it as a new and higher standard. I do. -Like not pissing all over El Cap if you want.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2010 - 12:08am PT
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BDC, I have almost the same Booty philosophy. Except mine is augmented with opportunites to make someone's day if I am able to return their gear to them. I feel better about keeping gear if I have no means to find out who's it was or no way of getting it back to them.
If somebody out there has my gear and wants to return it, I won't turn it down. That doesn't mean I am holding my breath for it.
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sempervirens
Trad climber
Trinity County
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:10am PT
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Bertrand, good on ya for posting and putting up with the lashings. We all learn. Lots of good advice, most of it we have all heard many times before. But that doesn't mean we always heed good advice.
Those admonishing you for being egotistical should see the mirror. THey're using your courage to tell the truth as an oppurtunity to pump themself. I don't think you need to be scolded when you're exposing the situation in the first place.
I say Cragman is giving good advice sincerely. The chief is wanking himself.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:13am PT
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Cragman- Since you started it, I'll finish it: You're a bloviating pinhead.
Fritz- Go fish.
And who is being "Mr. Negativity" here? Re-read. I would've climbed out. Sooner or later. I would've been there at 20%. Hey, did you hear me? Go fish. Pate could give you some pointers if you're nice.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:14am PT
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Blah blah blah... Who gives a sh#t. Good on ya for trying to return some gear. That climb looks sick. "prove your a climber fructose!". So lame cragman. So lame
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:21am PT
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My experience is evidenced, revealed, in my posts. Post up where you read bullshit or stop with the Republican-styled talking points. To those of us actually in the know, it reveals that you are weak, lame. You shallow-thinking ultra-conservatives...
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:22am PT
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bert-
let me save you some hard earned cash next time you bail.
if you have cash or cams growing on tree, disregard the following, but since you are here online begging for some charity, it seems neither is the case?
anyway-
3 solid pcs of gear in a fully equalized anchor is what you left there?
ok fine-
but fyi- that's an acceptable anchor for a scenario where the anchor could potentially take multiple dynamic loads, even be slammed in multiple directions. rapping is more or less a static load, so that's just wasteful, you are just too in the habit of needing 3 pcs to feel good i guess?
plus you had 2 parties of 2?
so 4 people bailing?
i guess one possibility is you all 4 simul-rapped to speed things up cause you were haired out by the juice in the air? if that's the case, maybe disregard this post.
if the 4 of you rapped in succession, her's what i'd have done in your place:
1) let the lightest climber w/ reasonable experience rap last
2) pick the very best placement you have available, and rap directly off the one pc in that spot
3) build a 2 pc back up anchor that hangs just barely lower than the point you are rapping from, so it's back up for safety but never gets weighted by anyone on rappel.
4) pay attention to the gear as the 1st 3 people weight, rap, and unweight the gear.
5) if it all looks good and nobody moves around during the 1st 3 raps, you can be pretty comfortable that the other 2 pcs are not necessary for the 4th
...
it's up to you, but-
6) often this is done even w/ a nut and sling- so the cams back up only, never weighted, the 1st people to rap help set the nut even better (hell, slam 'er home, you are leaving 'er there anyway, right?) and after seeing the nut perform you have a foundation for determining how you expect the nut to perform...
seriously, you guys bailed off 3 cams?
only if you don't trust any of them would i leave 3...
just my $.02
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2010 - 12:22am PT
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Ya 3.5 hrs...I don't really know. We started walking around 5, then I think it was 7ish at the end of the escarpment, then we took pictures and snacked and wood-poled our backpacks. Then the down scramble. I didn't check the time when we started climbing...I just assumed 3.5 ~I did lament not having my old climbing watch on my harness. My partner had the only time piece, and since I usually climb fast I never worried about our pace until it was too late.
HFCS, no audible thunder until after the rain started.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:31am PT
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Backed off two routes this week because I didn't feel I could safely get us through it by the time weather rolled in.
Promised my 57 year old mother I would take her on the west ridge of conness - camped at Young Lakes and by 7 am there were big puffy clouds moving FAST. Took her two friends and her to whitney to do the east butt, we took too much time, didn't feel I could safely get all of us up the thing in a summers day - sh!t happens. Left a chock and a sling up on E Buttress, whoever gets them gets the good luck of a 25 year old climber that wants to be a 75 year old climber.
Good days come and go, and even if you don't do what you thought you would, there are always extras. Turns out, backpacking in the sierras, even carrying an extra few pounds of rock gear, is fun in and of itself. There were no losers.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:32am PT
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Here are the trees I alluded to- from this winter's ski trip:
Fine cover for next time. So now you know.
Take heart, too. Cragman would've bailed also- not because he's not a local but because he's a FOOL when it comes to electricity. (As a fundamentalist Christian he believes devilry and demonic energies exist in them there thunderbolts.) So don't feel, bad, Bert. Kudos to you. Happy storytelling.
EDIT to ADD:
Excellent, first up on the new page- So everybody is sure read about Cragman.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2010 - 12:35am PT
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Hey Matt, great comments. I should have been more explicit earlier. The gear was not for rapping...it's a whole other story that I need not salt this thread with.
Basically, I concluded that the crack in the picture led to nowhere and I needed to come down and get back to the standard route which was way left...but not so far left that we couldn't rap down from above to retrieve the gear. I eventually did find the route and made it to the next belay during a light sprinkle. By the time my partner was up, it was full monsoon, and prudence dictated we skip the side project of retrieving our gear. Eventually we topped out, which is a different story.
Getting f'd up with the route finding is one of the multiple confounding events I referred to earlier. If that didn't happen, I think we would have been off before the rain. I think I will do better next time.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:35am PT
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I do want to mention; this has been a construcive thread except for
High Sugar corn syrup------ Mr. Negativity.
He is so quick with a comeback. Many consummate conmen are!
HFCS: Put up or shut up! Post some verified climbing stories, or go back to your stupid spewing in the religious and political threads.
Later edit! The tree photo in your last post is obviously taken in late spring or summer. Your winter trip story = more HFCS BS.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:38am PT
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Believe in Baby God Jesus, Fritz. C'mon, confess, you have a dog in this fight and it ain't climbing. You're the DENIER. Good company for Cragman.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2010 - 12:42am PT
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HFCS, thanks for coming to my defense earlier, and for the escape advice.
Others, I really appreciate your comments. I made some mistakes and this stuff helps the analysis. I am glad for the information.
Now it's time for Kum-BYe-Yahh
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:52am PT
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woah Jim, she sounds hard!
My mum wasn't out for a once-in-a-lifetime stroll. She probably has 200 days in the sierra back country, and was fresh off a trip over forester pass to Williamson and Tyndall. I'm the ropegun, she's the one that knows how to cook in the woods... except when we don't get to climbing, then I just get fed. Which isn't bad.
The day we opted out of conness she day hiked down to the meadows and back up to reserve a campsite, then grabbed her pack and shouldered it down one more time... down up and down for 21 miles. yikes.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:52am PT
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"Topos are good but no topo is sublime"
amen.
I love the supertopoes as much as the next guy, but the best memories seem to be when I leave it at home and figure it out on my own. Though it seems half the time I dont figure it out...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 19, 2010 - 12:54am PT
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Before leaving us, Bert, tell us how you made it out. Thanks.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 19, 2010 - 01:01am PT
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Hahaha what a flame war ...
Anyways .... lightning scares the sh'it out me.
I got knock out by it on the Prow.
On Tiisack it was all around me & Kauk and on the Tower in Borneo during a typhoon me and Hoover thought for sure we were gonna get fried .....
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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Jul 19, 2010 - 01:08am PT
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High Fructose: I am an atheist and a liberal.
Unlike you: I do not live to argue-----but your negativity is a detriment to this forum.
Post some climbing credibility, or crawl back to your “spew threads.”
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 19, 2010 - 01:11am PT
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Yeah I think Bertrand was just asking if someone came upon their gear and if they'd like to return it.
I think that's all it was .... ?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 19, 2010 - 01:13am PT
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Yeah, that's all it was. -Till the pinhead fool started up with the monday morning quarterbacking like it was gospel, a for-sure consensus in black and white, that needed to be heeded, do it my way or else. (First page.)
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2010 - 05:29am PT
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TC, this is where we started...directly across from my buddy, and then up the blocky ramp to the squarish ledge. I think that is the normal start.
Yes we brought photocopies of the topo from the ST book. I didn't lead the first pitch, so both my focus at the time and my recollection of it were limited.
Later in the climb, I came up to the ledge in the earlier photo from the right side...coming up through a steep right facing corner (hands), which followed a thigh sized right diagonalling ow that mercifully had an inside corner for hands and a jagged right lip for the occasional right foot.
I don't know if it is the variation you named, but aside from being lost-and then getting a little over my head on the sustained steep fingers above the rooflet, the climbing was quite enjoyable.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jul 19, 2010 - 09:53am PT
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Bertrand;
I should have said this earlier: "Glad you made it down safely!"
Regarding the "ownership" of gear left bailing off a climb, I believe that The Mountain has ownership. Whenever I've left gear there, it's strictly "finders-keepers." Occasionally a close friend may retrieve gear that he knew you left will make a special effort to retrieve it and return it.
In July 1966, S-T member Patrick Oliver and I were descending the N. Chimney on Longs Peak after completing the 4th ascent of the Diagonal (V,5.9,A3) and were both pretty wiped out. We were rapping, cause we were too exhausted to attempt the downclimb with all the aid gear and other crap. We hung my 165' goldline, and we simply said "phuck it," we were in no shape to attempt to retrieve said rope. A few days later a close friend, Roger V, came into the Rocky Mtn Rescue office and handed me my rope, but I tried to refuse it, saying that it was his. He insisted that I take it, so I did. I never again used the rope, but kept it as a memento of a great climb.
Rodger
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 19, 2010 - 10:01am PT
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Posting on a Calicentric site I have to endure Dana Pillar mania several times a year. Never has a quaint little 5 pitch climb received more press. Anything else to climb out that way?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 19, 2010 - 10:13am PT
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Maybe the proper line needs to be color coded like the routes they climb in their local gyms.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 19, 2010 - 10:21am PT
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Bertrand- Just noticed you authored that other thread. What's up with that?! It is a climbers' forum, man, and, FYI, it is considered bad form to nuke a thread.
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Jul 19, 2010 - 10:29am PT
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FYI, it is considered bad form to nuke a thread.
^...unless it gets hijacked to the point of ridiculousness.
Bertrand, glad you survived both storms.
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Fuzzywuzzy
climber
suspendedhappynation
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Jul 19, 2010 - 11:39am PT
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Werner -
I remember that storm. Luke was up there with you, right?
A lot of folks had a scary time that evening.
What a storm.
TC
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2010 - 12:37pm PT
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I didn't mind doing a bit of a variation, once realizing we were probably off the "obvious" route; I had read there were many ways to go and felt confident enough to keep going up regardless of my level of certainty of where I was. Perhaps that was a mistake on this particular day.. Good one, Donini. I know this route isn't supposed to be a big deal.
HFCS, I didn't nuke the other thread! In fact the comments on both these discussions have affected my opinion on each matter.
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rhyang
climber
SJC
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Jul 19, 2010 - 02:08pm PT
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Promised my 57 year old mother I would take her on the west ridge of conness - camped at Young Lakes and by 7 am there were big puffy clouds moving FAST.
Sounds like good times :) How did the approach look snow-wise ? Anyone been on the approach from Saddlebag Lake lately ?
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The Wedge
Boulder climber
Santa Rosa & Bishop, CA
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Jul 19, 2010 - 02:28pm PT
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It is called a plateau! Wake up. YOu can only see in one direction. The way off is up, not down. And then you are still not safe considering the 3.5 hour hike out on the Plateau. You are hanging you ass out in the wind. Doing that rt with clouds, or a chance of a thunderstorm, is just wrong. You can only see in wrong direction of which a majority of the storms come from (nice photo).
But you got off safe and learned a thing or two. 3 cams are cheap in comparison to your health or calling out SAR.
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deschamps
Trad climber
Out and about
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Jul 19, 2010 - 02:33pm PT
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Wow, this has become quite the analysis / flaming / "this is what to do next time" in reaction to a simple bail due to weather. Weather happens, people bail. No big deal.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 19, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
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Bertrand: Some random thoughts
Glad you guys survived without significant hardship.
Disclaimer: I've never climbed 3d Pillar. Have scoped out the approach a couple of times.
Speed in the mountains is safety as we all know. I'd say 3.5 hours car to ropeup on 3d Pillar isn't too bad. I can only guess how long the climb itself takes.
We all "roll the dice" every time we rope up. Often on the approach or descent.
Weather is one of the calculations.
Summer in the Sierras I always assume at least 20% chance of showers in the afternoon. More in July. Clouds by 10:00 AM and I start to get twitchy about the weather.
If we walked back to the car without roping up as soon as we saw clouds we'd hardly get any long routes done.
Plenty of high country routes obscure the likely approach direction of thunderstorms and they can appear suddenly. Extra vigilance on those routes: south east side of Cathedral Peak, Stately Pleasure Dome, most of the east side routes in the High Sierra.
That being said, the first pic you posted: I'd most likely have turned back at that point.
At post #40 you have another pic and ask Here is the sky about 1 hr before the rain started. That low on the route, with those clouds forming, I'd have bailed. The diffuse cloud at the right indicates wind and probably colder air. Plenty of times, I've bailed and then watched the clouds dissipate and cursed my decision.
No one's thought to mention you might have been safer where you sat out the storm on the side of the pillar than if you'd been caught on the wide open Dana Plateau.
It looks as if you were in the general area where Jeff Maurer fell last August
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/946005/Jeff-Maurer-Rest-in-Peace
By the way. I didn't interpret your original post as begging for your gear back. Three SLCDs is a meaningful fistful of cash for some of us (including me). You clearly said you didn't expect it to be returned.
I don't often hear of climbers in the Sierra or Yosemite getting hit by lightning. Top of Half Dome being the exception.
Good on ya for not taking the bait thrown at you on this forum.
I expect most of the bait throwers have been caught high in a thunderstorm, or worse. Obviously they've lived to tell about it. I have.
It's good we have this forum to learn from each others' mistakes.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Jul 19, 2010 - 04:07pm PT
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Reminds me of the time I asked Ferdinand, "what's the weather been doing?" He looked out from the kiosk into the sky as if he was channeling hidden energy and simply replied, "summer".
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Jerry Dodrill
climber
Sebastopol, CA
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Jul 19, 2010 - 04:52pm PT
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Clouds in the morning = afternoon pouring.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2010 - 05:04pm PT
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Ha, you guys are great! God bless ST.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 19, 2010 - 06:26pm PT
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Thanks Cragman, will do.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 19, 2010 - 06:28pm PT
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You have a great attitude Bertrand, keep pulling down.
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213
climber
Where the Froude number often >> 1
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Jul 19, 2010 - 09:50pm PT
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Don't they say the burned hand teaches best?
For those of you still icing the wounds, it never hurts to learn why the gasoline exploded.
First off, learn to forecast yourself. It is well worth the time taken to learn a little bit about the atmosphere and how to interpret data to be able to understand the NOAA forecasts (if you think they are always wrong, maybe you should learn a lil somethin bout it and see WHY) and alter the large scale forecasts for your particular area of interest.
You hear the word monsoon?
Check out the water vapor imagery from that afternoon. Nice plume evident. Thats what soaked Bertrand and friends.
Have a look at Reno's 5am sounding.
Key features?
GREEN: A negative lifted index (LI is difference between the environmental temperature at 500mb and an air parcels temperature at 500mb if it is lifted dry adiabatically from 1000mb to 500mb); negative values indicate instability because this parcel would be warmer than the surrounding atmosphere and thus want to be lifted further to reduce its temperature (everything wants equilibrium). As a result, air parcels will be positively buoyant and in the presence of a lifting mechanism, in this case, strong surface heating, and moisture (thanks monsoon!) strong convection and thunderstorms can easily occur.
PURPLE: Speaking of moisture, note the PWAT field is not 0, meaning moisture is present in the atmosphere.
BLUE: Add in the fact that there is some CAPE, or convective available potential energy (found in essence by integrating the area where the parcels temp is warmer than the environmental temp) in a place where most often we have none, and you have a recipe for fun times on rock climbs.
Not gonna go into LFC/LCL etc in this rant.
RED: Futhermore, look at the wind barbs to the right of the graph. This shows wind direction at each level in the atmosphere at this point. They fly like arrows from the breaths of Aeolus. In this case, the southerly flow is bringing the monsoonal moisture northward. Zeus will speak today.
Just some fun stuff you can now take with you to the hills.
Long story short, learn a little bout the winds, go pull up free wifi before your climb, and get the goods!
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jul 20, 2010 - 01:51am PT
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donini-
good stuff man
=)
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Menlo Park
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Jul 20, 2010 - 03:30am PT
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Hi Bertrand I found your cams on the route today.
Do you still want them?
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2010 - 02:28pm PT
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Dan, Your act of kindness has made my day. I know the booty rules, and I never felt entitled to my gear once we left it behind.
That said, For the last year and a half I have been running a non-profit company that I am passionate about, and I make essentially zero money. When I lose gear these days I simply cannot afford to replace it. If you would like to give the gear back, I will accept it with happiness.
I know some out there think the honorable thing to do would be to categorically say no. I can understand that, but I don't agree with it. This is now between you and me, and I am grateful to you. I'll message you offline to discuss further. THANKS.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Jul 20, 2010 - 02:50pm PT
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Betrand,
Since I haven't seen you in a while, and since both Dan and I live in Menlo,
I'll offer host and photograph the cam/beer exchange at my place!
kev
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splitclimber
climber
Sonoma County
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Jul 20, 2010 - 02:54pm PT
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yeah, a happy ending.
can't wait for my first thunderstorm bail. looks fun. ;)
and 213 - I dig the meterological schooling. what's the latest granjero adventure?
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2010 - 03:21pm PT
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Sounds great Kev. It'll be at least a 12er for Dan. D, what kind do you like?
Ahh why not.... invite the others on this thread and I'll sponsor up a pony keg, or more if I can afford it.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 20, 2010 - 03:51pm PT
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Just got thunder stormed off of a sport crag in Ouray. Too bad I can't be there to help with the pony keg.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Jul 20, 2010 - 04:02pm PT
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donini
As much as we'd love to have your help with the beers,
I believe we can step up!
Betrand,
Sounds like a plan.
Dan,
You in?
kev
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10b4me
Boulder climber
The End Is Near Retirement Home
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Jul 20, 2010 - 04:17pm PT
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I experienced a t-storm on a peak near BCS this past saturday. Had to sit it out for about an hour. We started off at 7 in the morning with just a few clouds. I've climbed in the Sierra for over thirty years, and am well aware of the t-storm probablity in July/August. As someone upstream said, if we waited for good weather, we would never pull out the rope.
After driving for five hours, you have to take the gamble.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2010 - 05:46pm PT
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I agree with CM. I let the sunk costs factor into my judgement as well, but when there is danger involved (remoteness, uncertain routefinding) I think sometimes it's okay to err on the side of prudence.
Man, it's hard though... it would have sucked to turn back and roll that wheel-less wheelchair of mine all the way back to the road!
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jul 20, 2010 - 06:34pm PT
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I think it's safe to say that we've all been mid-route in the backcountry when sparks start flying at least once.
Glad to hear you made it out OK, check those forecasts man! It would suck to have a rescue on your conscience.
Here's to beautiful Sierra granite.
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Menlo Park
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Jul 20, 2010 - 06:46pm PT
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Hey guys my name is Vincent and I'm a school teacher here in Menlo Park , Dapper Dan is a product from my favorite movie 'O Brother Where Art Thou' .
I saw those cams on the route and I figured someone must have left them in duress . I'm glad I am able to get them back to you . But I am traveling around a lot with my girlfriend and am not in Menlo much until the school year begins.
A lot of people were quick to slander and sling arrows at Bertrand for getting caught up in a storm and then looking to get his gear back. I say give him a break. If you climb in the mountains enough you get caught in some weather. Glad you're ok Bertrand, way to get down safely on your own.
Vince from Menlo Park
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Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Jul 20, 2010 - 07:01pm PT
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very nice Vince!!!
I like to climb under rain too, but I do not like to leave gear
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2010 - 07:13pm PT
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I agree with you Cragman.
I am going to spend a couple weeks on the east side in late August with a friend visiting from NY. She hasn't been climbing much this year, so I think we'll try to keep things easy. It would be pretty cool if I could hit you up later for some recommendations.
Vincent, we'll have that party whenever you are back and settled!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 20, 2010 - 07:36pm PT
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Nice outcome. It's nice, too, having climbers like Dapper Dan out there in the Sierra and elsewhere- climbing and living and assisting to a new and higher standard.
As an aside-
Yeah, I gathered something from this thread, too. I've learned not be so reactive regarding Cragman, I know he means well, but with statements like "Seems mighty irresponsible" and "Rolling the dice on that day with that forecast not only could have gotten you killed, but endangered the lives of SAR professionals." in a sport featuring conditions with so much slippery slope, gray area judgment calls, innate risks, artfulness, different skill levels, vagaries of all sort, it kinda irked. So in the future I'll do my best and I'll try to remember this thread and do better regarding urges to respond to his calls. As long as he's no juror on a jury deciding a climber's irresponsibility under gray area conditions, what's it matter, no worries.
All's well that ends well.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jul 20, 2010 - 07:48pm PT
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As long as he's no juror on a jury deciding a climber's irresponsibility under gray area conditions, no worries.
Sorry man, just jumping into this now, hope you don't mind.
We're all jurors of our peers. Climbing is for the most part unregulated and it's discourse that helps us progress safety, knowledge, and technical skills. I like the idea of this thread, let's keep it civil and we all can learn a thing or two and hopefully save lives.
I've been in a similar situation a couple of times and retreated safely. Let's use this as a case to examine and learn from.
I especially liked the breakdown of wind charts, something really cool I never knew about...
Safe climbing all,
Senor' Ricardo Cabeza-
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Gene
Social climber
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Jul 20, 2010 - 09:15pm PT
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Group hug!
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jul 20, 2010 - 09:38pm PT
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AAAWWWWW!!!!!!
Realistically, though. We all disagree on lots of topics, but climbing is what brought us here.
Can we have some kind of treaty when it comes to things that are on topic?
Cragman, I totally appreciate your SAR knowledge and would like to benefit from it. It just seems like dumbass partisanship ruins what could be a great wealth of information all too often.
I'm as much at fault as you, or anyone else for that matter. However, it seems like we have an amazing group collective, as far as knowledge goes, and we should all put it aside and create a safety thread.
It could be used for questions, constructive critisim(sp), and general insight as far as safe climbing goes.
I'll start it off. I actually have nothing specific I wish to speak about right now, but lets make this thread the full-on safe climbing thread.
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Barbarian
Trad climber
The great white north, eh?
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:38am PT
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You're a good man Dapper Dan! Volunteering to return bootied gear earns extra karma points. Personally, I use karma points to ward off thunderstorms - works pretty well (except for that one time...and that other time)!
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:42am PT
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I've climbed with Dapper Dan,
he IS a good man. A good man, a
good climber.
Good on ya, Dapper Dan! :)
I like that, too. Use of karma points
to ward off mountain thunderbolts.
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Fuzzywuzzy
climber
suspendedhappynation
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Jul 21, 2010 - 11:43am PT
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Timid - great memory of the standard response from Ferd!!
Classic.
Remember him looking up at the scattered clouds, "Clouds, one day, two days, rain".
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
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dude just wanted his cams back, and everyone blows up! Good to know it's illegal on ST to climb in threatening weather. i read in the alpinist about some guys that climbed in a storm in the Ruth Gorge. what a$$holes, huh? climbing in a storm like that. they got lucky and lived, but they should be tossed in jail. who do they think they are, mountaineers?
Cragman's right. if yer climbing with 20% chance of rain, then F#ck you. yer endangering hypothetical rescuers. Also true if you elect to climb above gear, climb on snow, go above 6,000 feet, or climb 5th class rock at all for that matter. but honnold is cool, since he doesn't fall.
Cragman, what's yer take on Copp and Dash? big jerks for standing under an avalanche, huh? endangered rescuers and everything. Why don't you call them out? call out everybody who ever accepted some risk.
Well, I'm here to admit that I too have bailed off gear in a sudden thunderstorm. So, take me to task please. i probably deserved to die up there, just for climbing under clouds, i know...
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
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that's what i told my professors anyway.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:47pm PT
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213
great stuff, very informative, etc.
Even though I've sailed 3 of the seven seas and tramped/climbed in the mountains of three continents and the arctic I don't know all that stuff.
And that data isn't available to us mortals at 8 PM when we're planning tomorrow's climb.
When I go to the mountains all I can count on is whatever brief professional forecast I can glean from local sources. In Tuolumne, it's scrawled in chalk at the entrance station or at the campground office. But not at 5 AM when I'm crawling out of the sack and trying to get breakfast mess put away in the bear box. It's YESTERDAY's forecast for today.
Sorry, I'm not going to take my laptop and a satellite antenna to get the latest met. raw data nor even dig out my iPhone to look at the NOAA satellite pics (assuming I can get a connection).
So I'm on my own to observe conditions in the sky over my head, see how much dew or frost is on the grass from last night, does this morning feel different than yesterday morning, consider my route, contemplate how the local topography might affect what I see.
Go for it, pay attention on route and live with the consequences, tell the tales;
or not.
There are a myriad of variables beyond our control in climbing. Most of them are constantly changing, especially the weather. How we interpret them and act on our judgement is what it's all about. That's a great deal of the adventure. Otherwise we could stay in the gym or the local sport crags.
Bertrand and partners played the game at 11000 feet. They got the available data before they left. They carried on with their plan and got caught. Stuck out the storm, got themselves back down the route and out to the car in fine shape. No one hurt. No call for SAR. No one else at risk. That's mountaineering. That's being self sufficient.
I'd say they had a successful day.
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Rankin
climber
North Carolina
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
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Old crusty climbers are the meanest people on Earth, so you have to take any criticism from this crowd with a healthy lump of salt. They mean well (edit: acutally they don't), but venom is all they spray. You can't take them too seriously. They're all big teddy bears underneath it all. Hilarious argument, really, from climbers that have been hanging it out there for 30-40 years.
Supertopo should have a poll for who is the crustiest and the mustiest at the taco stand. Hard to say how that would turn out, but if were to guess I'd say that donini would win, no...Cragsman, no...WBraun. Boy, that's quite a can of worms (edit: old, crusty, mean worms). : )
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:56pm PT
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from climbers that have been hanging it out there for 30-40 years
Well, they appear to be doing it right, ya gotta hand 'em that! Might even be wise to heed their words...
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Rankin
climber
North Carolina
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
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You got that right bluering. Some bad-ass old dudes lurk here.
Seriously, though, the lesson to be learned from this is that locals know the weather patterns better than NOAA. Cragsman is a valuable resource and should be used as such.
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:08pm PT
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Cragman as resource...
Climbing with 20% chance of rain is Wrong. So, no don't climb at Squamish, or Patagonia, or England, or in the mountains, or in the spring, summer, or winter. and never in the backcountry.
Also don't climb if there is 20% chance of leader fall. Or 20% chance of car accident. or 20% chance of bee sting. or 20% chance of getting off route. Or 20% chance of having to rescue some dumbass like me. Becasue when you sum up all those percentages, it is almost impossible to avoid some sort of danger on a climb.
Just DON"T CLIMB! I honestly don't know how Cragman can justify even going up stairs. People have gotten really hurt on stairs.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:14pm PT
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Snorky, you're pretty funny but shouldn't we let this dog take a nap now?
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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HFCS
yer so right. But I dislocated my elbow and have little else to do. Guess I should be looking at NOAA forecasts instead. Thanks for slapping me straight.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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I like Snorky.
Solution; Do what I do, don't bring a phone with you. That way you can't call in a rescue and no innocents put themselves in danger.
You reap what you sow...or... it separates the wheat from the chaff.
Take care of yourselves and if you perish, well, it's your own fault.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:21pm PT
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locals know the weather patterns much better than NOAA. Cragsman is a valuable resource and should be used as such. Cragman, please post your phone number and email address!! Better yet, start your own East Side Weather website http://whatthef_kistheweathergoingtodotoday/3dPillar
and run a WiFi access point in Tuolumne Meadows.
Seriously. Cragman and others have great input for the general situations that can happen. NOAA hasn't yet got a point forecast for 3d Pillar of Mt Dana.
There's no internet kiosk in Tuolumne Mdws for us to look at the various weather sites at 5 AM. Write your Congressman.
It's the difference between mountaineering and cragging, even if it's only a medium length 10a climb and only a couple of hours from the car.
Fergawdssake. Backpackers spend 30 days on the JMT. Hiking over exposed 12000 foot passes often nowhere near shelter, weather forecasts, internet or cellular service. Thunderstorms in the afternoon, sometimes all night. No Big Deal.
Learn how to watch out for and take care of yourself in all kinds of potential s&*t, cut the apron strings, get out there.
Bertrand and partners did and they didn't bitch about the results.
Do It.
<<end of rant>>
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:27pm PT
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I want to know if Cragman owns a jacket. If he truly has a divine weather feed, and he is truly a local weather prophet, then a jacket would not only be superfluous, but a symbol of his lack of confidence in god.
edit: merely musing here.
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Fuzzywuzzy
climber
suspendedhappynation
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
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Glad everyone is okay.
I was there and the signs were written in the sky the day before and in the early AM.
If it was going to storm anywhere it was on the crest.
The Fairview parking lot was an indicator of how concerned about T&L folks were that day. 2 cars.
Have alternatives, enjoy life.
Plenty of risk out there for everyone.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
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Yes, whatever else, Bertrand seems to be quite a good sport. Hopefully he can come to the FaceLift and meet many of us in person.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2010 - 02:34pm PT
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MH, I would love to take part in that. I also have this nutty idea of hosting a bluegrass themed beer hour for this crew near some crag in the Sierras. Timid TR has some location ideas.
p.s. before friday the last time I was rained off something was 2 months ago, on a short layback pitch above jabberwocky at smoke bluffs. (white rabbit?) Cool place...I can't wait to go back and try for a full day!
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jul 21, 2010 - 02:56pm PT
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cragman, that's better.
seems like when you chided the OP for being "irresponsible," you were really chiding yourself for getting into all those terrible thunderstorms you mentioned. what, you're allowed to climb in bad weather in the past, but other people shouldn't do so in the present? how can we get old and crusty if we don't face risks and hazards?
i think your focus on rescues and mishaps has distorted your view of adventure altogether. perhaps that is a price to pay for taking on such valorous yet perilous work. you are so focused on fatality. what of the vitality to be gained from entering uncertain terrain and conditions, and surviving.
as we age, maybe we get more conservative, and come to disdain the haphazard freedom of youth, when we were oblivious to risk and regret. and we become envious of those who still dare to throw caution to the wind. and that is the crustiness.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 21, 2010 - 03:10pm PT
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OT, I bootied three pieces left on the Great Pumpkin on Fairview on sunday. ID and I'll get them back to the owner
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The Alpine
Big Wall climber
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Jul 21, 2010 - 04:23pm PT
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Bertrand - you still owe us beers and dinner for hauling you guys off the climb. You gonna tell these guys what really happened up there?
Glad we didn't fry.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jul 21, 2010 - 04:40pm PT
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so this is the sort of thread i missed while i was in the alps.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2010 - 04:42pm PT
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HAHA, what's up man!
I have been checking myself through this thread for the ethics of not having given you guys props yet! The consideration was that the story already had enough twist to it. And I didn't need to add more to it just yet. But maybe now is a good time.
So here goes! give me five minutes to write it....no other remarks please until I post it up!
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Jul 21, 2010 - 05:16pm PT
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high traverse mentioned a few pages back that you might have been in the same area where jeff maurer fell. i don't think it was, but if you find my two cams out there, i would take them back (bd .4 and .75). (our favorite east sider in nurses pants returned the first piece.
you have handled both storms (the one on 3rd pillar and the one on st) well. glad to hear the gear is getting back to you.
peace
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2010 - 05:50pm PT
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Our means of egress:
So we have established that I am, at this point, right of the normal route. We had come up from an even further right course below. We had an early start to the day, and despite the signals of having made a mistake with the weather, we felt confident we could finish quickly.
Though we couldn't match up our location with the topo, we knew there were multiple variations. Despite the inherent risks, I enjoy the adventure of not being sure where I am, and I was happy to climb up from here. Up to the rooflet it seemed low 10's finger crack. And really enjoyable climbing. From this position I saw two guys coming down the 3rd class toward the start of the climb.
Beyond the rooflet it went from fingers to tips and got a little steep. furthermore, the gear size was blue aliens, and, between the anchor and the pro I used getting to that point, I was running low of that size. I set a marginal stopper above the rooflet (backed up with bomber blue alien below the rooflet) and tried to fire through the steep finger tips. I fell, stopper blew. I think it ended up being a 30' foot clean whipper. At that point we decided we might have better luck with the lie-back flake just beyond the arete to our right. About 10' off from the gear that remained under the rooflet. This is what turned the tide of the day. I miscalculated, the climbing got very hard before I got a chance for any gear, and, exhausted, I fell w/ penji back to the original line, spinning backward and hitting the backs of my shoulders and head in the wall. YES, I know this sounds like complete amateur hour. I cannot really explain it. The first of the falls was the first time I have fallen on gear in over a year. I have never taken two big falls in a row like that. I detest the sport climbing style of trying and falling over and over.
Anyway, my partner made it clear it was up to me to somehow finish the climb for us. I was pretty disturbed about my climbing and my falling, but didn't see any choice but to continue. (perhaps we should have retreated here given the fatigue/psyche factor). I got back down to the ledge, downclimbed low and left and found the regular route mid P3. I went up through the squeeze and past the standard end-of-P3-belay and up toward the jagged ledge below the 10b face move / RP. It was raining by then, and the 10a corner moves became strenuous liebacking since I did not trust the friction in the rain. As I slung the horns the first round of lightning/heavy rain started. We waited 20 minutes, then brought up my partner. I felt like vomiting.
Next pitch (halfway through P4 on the ST map): Due to the weather we decide to forego the side project of rapping down and right for the gear we left. We just wanted to be off, and to finish safely. I am standing there with the RP slotted contemplating two different ways to do the move...and still rattled from my falls. THEN, the guys we saw earlier come up right behind us to the end-of-P3 belay. It seemed perfectly clear what to do. I was feeling both sick and scared. These guys were climbing very fast through the rain, and they knew the route. I told them we were in distress, and asked if they wouldn't mind passing us and trailing our rope up behind them. Josh and Chris were very cool about the whole thing. And in my opinion, they are VERY strong climbers. I was happy to be done with the sharp end.
Last pitch: This is the kind of climbing I would love to have done if I was feeling better, and if it was dry. But the situation was far different. After Chris got us up to the standard P5 belay, Josh moved up methodically on the wet rock, under rain, in the lightning. It was heroic. The rain and thunder was HEAVY by now, so Josh could not safely hang around to belay at the top. He wisely sought cover after fixing our lines. The other three of us ascended/climbed with tri-block & prussik. This went pretty fast for Chris, but not for us. I think altogether, I was huddled on the ledge for 2 hours, soaking wet, keeping my head down, and hoping lightning didn't strike any of us. I thought it was ironic that it probably hit 100 in Oakdale that day and yet I had never felt colder in my life. Worst epic of my life (including the time I was benighted w/o bivvy gear).
I am pretty crappy with the tri-block...but between climbing and sliding up the rope I eventually topped out, just as the weather was getting nice again.
What can I say... I am a fairly experienced climber; I am pretty astonished that I got myself into all these problems...but each issue represents something that for a variety of reasons I failed to account for. There was a lot of good discussion on this thread already. But the time was right to share all the details and give props where they are due...Thanks again to Josh and Chris & sorry I omitted your part of the story earlier.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 21, 2010 - 06:04pm PT
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Hey, your account is one of the reasons we love this adventure sport. Thanks for posting up.
P.S. That appears to be the standard descent to me. Or maybe it's off to the right... Still doable, tho. Pretty sure.
P.S.S. Cragman- That other post was a good one. Nicely put.
...............
EDIT
The Alpine- So it sounds like you were P3-P4 when it started lightning in the vincinity. Yet you decided to carry on. No judgment, HERE, just curious. At P4-P5 it was raining and lightning- thickly all about- as you pulled P5 and topped out?! If so, wow.
Okay, I got it: "It was heroic."
............
So Dapper Dan, did you intentionally climb this harder variation to happen across Bert's pieces or did you spot em from below and decide to retrieve them, or what? Curious minds want to know.
.............
Great story, Bertrand. Suspenseful. In parts. Like Hitchcock. Like the Mel Gibson tapes. Drip by drip. Thanks for saving the exit description to the end. If you recall, I was curious about it. A fine ending.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 21, 2010 - 06:10pm PT
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Slightly off topic:
Real mountain weather on the Grand Teton, right now.
Was perfectly clear this time yesterday.
I've got NO idea what the forecasts were yesterday.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 21, 2010 - 07:06pm PT
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I remember that memorable post from last year.
Having been nearly that close a couple of times myself and having a friend nearly killed when struck climbing I'm not minimizing the hazard of lightning.
Amazing how fast a thunderstorm can come up on you when you're on a steep east facing cliff anywhere at altitude on the East side of the Sierra.
Or any side of the Tetons or the Wasatch or the Presidentials or the Cuillins or ........
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 21, 2010 - 07:07pm PT
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so we dash down Ellery bowl GOOD idea. What's the best way to get into Ellery Bowl from the plateau?
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zeta
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jul 21, 2010 - 07:13pm PT
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all these tales of close calls with lightening reminds me of the crazy looks we give our partners when we know that things are BAD.
In 2006, we were descending off the Grand--the weather had been sunny and there were four of us leisurely eating lunch on top. We get to the mandatory rap ledge, there's a bunch of parties bottlenecked, waiting for their turn to rap down. Weather comes in fast, rain, thunder and lightening coming closer... I'm feeling super ancy to get the f*#k off the mountain. When it was *finally* my turn to rap, I lean back, having just double-checked everything and this HUGE deafening thunder cracks...I first look up b/c somehow I think that the loud noise might have dislodged boulders from above and then I do the fastest rap ever...belay device burning, I call 'off rappel' into the deluge and take off running down the slope...
i didn't pee in my pants but i was terrified and so damn grateful to get down safely.
Glad you're ok bertrand! and thanks for sharing the story
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 21, 2010 - 07:29pm PT
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Cragman
THAT's the stuff! Maybe Chris should put that into his next edition of Tuolumne Free or High Sierra Climbing.
zeta
yup. Been there, sun and games on top of the Grand with a clear sky all 'round. Fortunately I was down to the caves before the lightning caught up with me. How I avoided the rap ClusterFk is another story.
Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 21, 2010 - 07:43pm PT
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all these tales of close calls with lightening reminds me of the crazy looks we give our partners when we know that things are BAD.
I know that look! "Dude, hurry up, we gotta bail NOW!!!!"
2 pitches up Marmot Dome. Every time I go up there I get stormed off. Weird...Still haven't topped out on it.
A prior attempt we watched (on the bail) a lightning strike hit Lembert. I think I said, "Man, I hope nobody was up there"
Cragman, WOW!!! Glad you made it off o.k. on that day.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 21, 2010 - 08:06pm PT
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Bertrand filled in more details and pics on the previous page. Holy Shit!!!
That was an epic and you're fortunate to be assisted by angels like the ones who 'floated' up to you. Wow!
As Cragman keeps saying, we need to learn from epics likes this!!!!
Also, Bertrand, it takes a man to relay a humbling story like that. Thanks! Hope to run into you again. Climb on and climb safe!
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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Jul 21, 2010 - 08:41pm PT
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Bertrand & Cragman : Thank you for posting up the “embarrassing details” of your epics.
It takes me about 20 years after an epic event, to be willing to tell “the rest of the story.”
However, it is good when I confess, and finally quit hiding the embarrassment in my subconscious.
I have worked real hard at avoiding lightning, and have been lucky enough to never have a strike closer than about 1/10th mile away (you see the flash and hear the bang, before you can start counting to judge distance).
Too damn close: at lightning speed of 186,000 miles a second.
Cragman: if lightning blew up the start of my rappel, likely there would have been more than pee in my pants.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 21, 2010 - 08:46pm PT
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Cragman: if lightning blew up the start of my rappel, likely there would have been more than pee in my pants.
I thought the same thing.
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Sir Donald
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Jul 21, 2010 - 09:23pm PT
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My own lightning story from the City of Rocks in Idaho - 1988 - eatin' and drinking on top of the Breadloves - watched a low pass from an Airforce fighter group - they had to be no more than 200 feet above us - we were paying no attention to the clouds creeping over the saddle from Burley, ID. All of a sudden - my partner Kamet's wild ass hair stands on end - and the rack starts buzzing. Holy shiznit - we left all the gear and ran down the 4th class descent - no rain - just strike after strike - we almost got hit several times. Weirdest lightning storm I've ever been in, it all came at once, dry as a bone, and maybe 15 ground - or close to ground strikes all over the saddle area. Several summers later there was a tragedy on Steeple peak just 24 hours after we climbed it - guy and girlfriend survive one strike with injuries - only to get hit again 30 minutes later and he was killed. Scary stuff ole' sparky - to many close calls to count. Be safe.
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jul 22, 2010 - 12:07pm PT
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funny how this thread began with cragman ripping the OP for climbing into a storm, but now it has become a celebration of cragman surviving similar events. furthermore, the climbers who rescued the OP, while obvious badasses, have escaped the same criticism despite climbing into the same storm, but with an even later start. so, the OP is a clown who randomly survived despite himself, but the other climbers are heroes because they excelled in terrifying conditions. and cragman's a hero because he got wet and almost got hit by lightning. interesting double standard.
cragman scolds the OP for not asking a local about the weather, yet has himself been overwhelmed in similar situations in tuolumne, despite being that knowledgeable local. cragman wrote: "I knew this could go either way; get dumped on or miss us and dump somewhere else. With two pitches left, we decided to go for the summit." how is this much different than the OP's situation?
furthermore, in the OP's pics, looks like plenty of blue sky overhead, not the ominous thunderhead, 100% precip conditions that many have said prevailed in the area that day. that sky would certainly tempt me upwards.
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jul 22, 2010 - 12:17pm PT
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fattrad,
sorry, i don't understand. what did you mean by "different 20%?"
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 22, 2010 - 12:18pm PT
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So my old partner and mate were climbing the exit chimneys of the NE Face of the Piz Badile
when they got slammed by one of the big thunderstorms
that roll up from Italy unseen by the north facers. Alan was leading and
reached for a hold when the lightning struck his hand! His paralyzed arm
dropped to his side. They climbed the remaining 600' and made it down to
the hut. His arm came back to life after a couple of hours.
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jul 22, 2010 - 01:20pm PT
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I totally get it now, thanks cragman. i didn't realize fattrad was making an explanation, even after reading slowly. turns out whenever it rains, there was ultimately a 100% chance of rain that day.
while i'm here, is it ok if i go climbing Friday on the eastside? NOAA says there's a 10% chance of tstorms. can you tell me if it's the normal 10% or the different 10%? do you issue the permits or is there a website? Will I be fined if I get wet or scared? how many forecasts am i required to check? What if they are wrong? what would you do? is 10% in CA diferent than the 10% we use in CO? at least you can't say i didn't check with the weather master.
in my community, we are allowed to climb in any weather without facing a tribunal or expecting sympathy or rescue. Different rules in sunny CA? (off-route, raining?...call Cragman for a spanking).
even if there's a 100% chance of tstorms and avalanches and earthquakes, WHY DO YOU CARE if I go climbing in it? You are not involved. Am I not allowed to risk my own personal safety? I am pro-choice, you are pro-life. climbing is silly anyway.
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jul 22, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
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There was a time when climbers had to have balls/bravery.
They would trek for weeks into unknown, unmapped terrain. They would climb with no umbrella of weather data or rescue personnel. They would go beyond retreat and commit to an uncertain fate. And they did it all without the glory of spraying about it on ST.
I am not one of these people either. Collectively, what has happened to us?
Certainty neuters adventure. Absolute safety is a myth.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Jul 22, 2010 - 01:51pm PT
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As the banter continues, I can't help but think in amusement of Winston Churchill's profound words; "There is nothing more exhilarating than being shot at and missed". If it were any other way would we really care to do it? You're all great, Berg Heil.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2010 - 02:13pm PT
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Hi Snorky, I think I was in a pretty bad situation last Friday. And though I have been climbing all kinds of stuff for over ten years, my ability to climb full time has been limited by injury, career, and other projects. You guys are at it all the time, you live in the mountains, and I would be an idiot to not respect the wealth of insights available in this community. To make up for my weekend-warrior limitations, I work hard to draw every lesson out of every experience , I really do like to think about what could have been done better....it actually makes me climb more confidently.
I don't see this as a tribunal. Well, if it is a tribunal, it serves a good purpose. When describing the events I noticed how ego, sunk time costs, expectations of team speed, and weather assessment all played into the decision to climb despite the clouds above. When I started the thread I didn't think I had made any wrong decisions, given the facts available to me at the time. Yet in the honest remarks from Cragman, The Chief, HFCS, and others, I have some different perspectives on how to weight the risk factors. Of course there are always going to be times where we weigh the risks and go for it anyway, but the way I go about it is now a little better. [Edit] And don;t forget the kick-ass meteorologic tools we got on page 2.
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jul 22, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
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cragman, does that mean climbing is ok on Friday?
bertrand, of course you're smarter now. Sounds like a crappy time. But do you regret having the learning experience at all?
Experience comes from bad judgment...or something like that.
Glad you're alive. But seriously your optimism and civility have no place in an online forum. Try to be more polarizing please....
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jul 22, 2010 - 02:21pm PT
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Cragman, was that so hard? That's all i wanted to hear.
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Jul 22, 2010 - 02:25pm PT
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You've got a great spirit and attitude Bertrand, learning is a two way street. We should all be wiser now than last Friday.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jul 22, 2010 - 02:27pm PT
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cragman,
you really are a jackass.
your brawn here in this safe forum environment does nothing to cover up your obvious insecurities and ill ways.
in my outspoken opinion, this was a better place before you arrived.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 22, 2010 - 02:28pm PT
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Glad you're alive. But seriously your optimism and civility have no place in an online forum. Try to be more polarizing please....
Haha..I usually agree, but I just got gear back and great advice by being nice. I am polarizing on my other threads.
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jul 22, 2010 - 02:33pm PT
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Cragman, that's sad. Maybe YOUR life is like a sewer.
If my life was like a sewer, I would merely be concerned with getting out of it, regardless of what I put in.
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jul 22, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
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It became a "weenie measuring match" when Cragman pulled out his thunderstorm story to compare to the OP's. He made it all about him. FIGJAM!
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jul 22, 2010 - 02:49pm PT
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If it looks at all crappy, don't go up high on long routes. Do something 1-pitch near the road. At least you'll get something done.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 22, 2010 - 02:51pm PT
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cragman,
you really are a jackass.
your brawn here in this safe forum environment does nothing to cover up your obvious insecurities and ill ways.
What???
lame....
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Gene
Social climber
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Jul 22, 2010 - 02:59pm PT
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Let's put this thread to bed folks. It has outlived its usefullness.
Thanks,
g
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jul 22, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
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If you have to explain it, then it's a crappy axiom.
again, I get nothing out of the sewer.
If you get out what you put in, then Life is more like a refrigerator.
See, that makes sense.
All I learned here was that there are some chatty characters around. I already knew that thunderstorms were frightening.
lastly: what gene said.
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The Alpine
Big Wall climber
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Jul 22, 2010 - 08:25pm PT
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Live via a droid cell phone: currently sitting atop the dana plateau after sumiting via a suspcted new route on the formation nnw of the pillar. As seen from the tioga road it is the giant right facing corner on the long ridge/wall to the right of the third pillar. Anybody know of existing routes on this formation? Time to go cook some ramen wih columbine salad.
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Gene
Social climber
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Jul 22, 2010 - 08:30pm PT
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The Alpine,
Kewl! Got pics of the route. Email 'em to my ST addy and I'll put 'em up.
How's the weather? :)
g
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Jul 22, 2010 - 09:02pm PT
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for a minute there i thought i was in the 911 thread!
there are really some crotchety MFer's around here.
i guess when one is backpacking in the Winds lets say, they ought to use their Sat Phone to check the weather b4 climbing? right....
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jul 23, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
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Okay Eastside Boyz + Local Wise Men...
I'm looking at the weather forecast for this weekend, and it's giving me some willies. Stay OFF the high peaks in Northern Yosemite this weekend? Or only Sunday? Are we regulated to cragging (or hiking)?
Here's what the Dweebs are saying in Mammoth:
SATURDAY:
MOISTURE AT 700MB WILL INCREASE THROUGH SATURDAY AND PWS ARE FORECASTED TO INCREASE TO .5 IN. WITH MAIN FOCUSING STILL EXPECTED WITHIN THE MONO CO. CONVERGENCE AREA. SATURDAY'S STORMS WILL STILL BE RELATIVELY DRY AND SO DRY LIGHTNING WILL BE THE MAIN ISSUE IN THE HIGH COUNTY SATURDAY PM.
SUNDAY:
BY SATURDAY AFTERNOON....THE UPPER JET OF 50-KNOTS ASSOCIATED WITH THE UPPER CUT OFF:
1. BEGINS TO PULL THE CUT-OFF TOWARD THE COAST, AGAIN CHANNELING MORE MOISTURE INTO THE AREA FOR SUNDAY.
2. THE NOSE OF THE UPPER JET IS NEAR THE CENTRAL COAST SATURDAY AND INLAND OVER N/CENTRAL CA SUNDAY. THIS WILL ADD THE POSSIBILITY OF STORMS AFTER MID NIGHT SATURDAY NIGHT, ESPECIALLY FOR THE NORTHERN SIERRA WITH GOOD STORM DEVELOPMENT FOR THE CENTRAL SIERRA SUNDAY.
SUNDAY LOOKS TO BE THE BEST DAY FOR SCATTERED THUNDERSTORMS OVER MAMMOTH LAKES
AS PRECIPITABLE WATER INCREASES TO 0.75 INCH COMBINED WITH WITH STRONG DYNAMICAL FORCING.....AS THE UPPER JET PULLS IN COOLER AIR ALOFT WHICH ADDS TO FURTHER INSTABILITY.
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The Alpine
Big Wall climber
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Oct 24, 2010 - 09:47pm PT
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...............
EDIT
The Alpine- So it sounds like you were P3-P4 when it started lightning in the vincinity. Yet you decided to carry on. No judgment, HERE, just curious. At P4-P5 it was raining and lightning- thickly all about- as you pulled P5 and topped out?! If so, wow.
Okay, I got it: "It was heroic."
............
That pretty much sums it up. We knew we were hosed, just weren't sure of the BEST thing to do. Apparently hiding under the large boulder on top was the LAST thing we should've done. Was a great learning experience, and a good lesson to learn.
The next time my helmet and gear starts buzzing.... I'll probably just do the same damn thing.
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