Question for the Bird/rumors about Pinnacles

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billygoat

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 10, 2005 - 12:02pm PT
So, the rumor mill has been spinning a bit about Brad Young's upcoming Pinns guide: The dude (I can't believe I just called a lawyer a dude) has done more routes than the total listed in the current Rubine guide. The dude doesn't push himself past 11c, so clearly he's done a bunch of obscure stuff on his own.

Question (not for Jim): is Young attempting a hostile takeover of Pinnacles supremacy by publishing a new guidebook which will largely stroke his own ego and display a bunch of contrived lines nobody will ever do?

If any of you have done some of Bird's old routes there, you know he picked a bunch of classics. He also picked some shitty ass rock. A while back I went up an aide line called Bridwell bolts only to find that an old rivet ladder with a cool pinn and hook section had been totally retrobolted with five piece rawls. Even the hook move was gone. The character of the line had been destroyed, and the most recent offender was Brad Young! The dude had spent much time replacing the majority of the bad bolts with bomber ones on one of the chossiest, otherwise untouched, faces at the pinns. What the f*#k?

Wondering what Bridwell would think about this? I know he used to be a big proponent of less than solid bolt/riviet ladders--in order to keep the masses at bay. So I've got a pretty good idea. But if there's any way to get his current opinion, that would be sweet.
dodangler

Trad climber
truckee
Nov 10, 2005 - 12:28pm PT
I am curious about the Pinnacles, not being from the bay and only having spent one weekend climbing there and for the life of me I can't remember one climb. This is coming from a guy that remembers every piece needed and move on a climb. Is it not all sort of contrived there? I remember the rock being somewhat like Smith but of way lesser quality. I am sure it must have some quality routes, and its a great option if you live in the bay and you can't get to a real crag, but come on.... wouldn't it be more interesting to talk about Crimpies rack!
billygoat

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2005 - 01:16pm PT
Compared to Sierra Granite, the rock sucks. Compared to Fisher Towers, it's Sierra Granite. Rock quality, in actuality, is highly variable. When's the last time you desired the Black Kaweah? There's bad rock wherever you go, trick in climbing is to keep off it when possible and not break it when impossible. The common Pinns addage is "pull down, not out." This usually works quite well. Still, for new comers, the experience can be a bit unsettling.

I wonder what side you went to when you were there? West side tends of have pretty bad rock. East side is usually better.

PS--don't forget: rumor has it that the next ST guide is gonna be to the Pinns!
salad

climber
San Diego
Nov 10, 2005 - 01:37pm PT
this should be good.
mynameismud

climber
backseat
Nov 10, 2005 - 02:13pm PT
I will start with my background at the Pins. I have climbed there for about 20 years. The only person to have climbed more individual routes at the Pins is Brad. I have done about 100 fewer routes than he has. The hardest route I have redpointed at the pins is 12b or c. I've done all but 2 11's. Put up as many routes as anybody. My hardest fa around 11b, although to be honest I think I proabably have only put up 2 decent routes. I have probably climbed more pitches at the Pins than anyone. When I say pitches that includes countless repeats of so called classics. There I now feel better with that strokefest. Ahhhhhhhh. Dam that felt good.
Brad is not doing a hostile take over. He talked with Rubine. He has also talked with most everyone who has any history with the place. Is he doing it to stroke his "ego". Probably. I mean WTF, why else. Community service... Bah Humbug.
I will say Brad has done almost every route that he is putting in the new guide. Not just walked by the base. So the topo's and approach info is correct. With most the 100 or so routes outside his range he is talking to people that have done the routes. The history section is very complete. It should be a decent guide. Is Brad a nice guy. Oh hell no. We all hate him. That is why we occasionally climb with him.
Am I a nice guy. No. I hate you. If you don't love the Pins you don't count. Go away, go sport climbin in yer fancy pink lycra. Yer pimp hairdoo is outa place. DIE.
The end.
mynameismud

climber
backseat
Nov 10, 2005 - 02:19pm PT
As far as the Bridwell bolt ladder. I think he was trying to upgrade the thing. It was not a rivet ladder. They were the bolts of the day. 1/4".
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 10, 2005 - 02:26pm PT
"Question (not for Jim): is Young attempting a hostile takeover of Pinnacles supremacy by publishing a new guidebook which will largely stroke his own ego and display a bunch of contrived lines nobody will ever do?

Umm, WTF is "Pinnacles supremacy" and why would Brad give a rat's arse to hold that?? Does researching and publishing a guide always mean the author does it to stroke his ego?

With the Sanora guide, Brad published about an area to which he had a lot of info. With the Pinns guide, Brad is working with a few others, but here he has a lot of info nobody else can touch. I for one am looking forward to it because like Brad, I like to do obscure old lines.

As for Bridwell Bolts, it would be interesting to see if Jim cares at all about that old choss pile.

ION, I talked to Rubine. They want him to update his book, but can't because he's now out of state. It'll be interesting to see how the new publishers handle that one...

:- k
mynameismud

climber
backseat
Nov 10, 2005 - 02:56pm PT
There is also a new Pinnacles Forum if you would like to cross post there. I am sure you will get a very warm welcome.

:)

http://www.mudncrud.com/mastersofmud/
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
Nov 10, 2005 - 03:17pm PT
so much drama, so much innuendo

I'm going to have to go with mynameismud on this one:

DIE

LOL!!
lazide

Big Wall climber
Bay Area, CA
Nov 10, 2005 - 03:37pm PT
re: Bridwell Bolts

There is still quite a few of the old bolts there (crappy 1/4" generic dryvin's with hangers) - I pulled a couple of pointless ugly ones with a few of light funks last weekend, but there are still plenty left for everyone's amusement. (Buddy of mine did it for aid practice while I dodged falling dirt clods).

re: missing pin and hooks moves - while possible someone added bolts to bypass, it seems unlikely from looking at the route. Most likely they just busted off (huge chunks of the route have obvious fallen/been ripped off relatively recently). A buddy of mine had a bomber looking grappling hook blow on him (after he was 3/4 of the way up his aiders!) when the whole small 'shelf' he was hooking blew apart.

mtnyoung

Trad climber
Sonora, California
Nov 10, 2005 - 04:40pm PT
Way too much to respond to. You see I'm too important to take time for the little people. (I hope the original post was also meant in fun.) As to Bridwell Bolts I replaced existing bolts on a one for one basis and left much of the choss. For a very full discussion on this subject, see letters on the Friends of Pinnacles web page. My biggest fear about Pinns is that people will actually start adding bolts to existing lines in the name of "safety", making it all just another crag. This is precisely what I didn't do (although so many bolts of so many types had been put on this route over the years it is easy to see how confusion has arisen). Don't accuse me of adding bolts (as opposed to replacing them) unless you know the facts. And watch your language about me "not pushing myself past 11c." That's a pretty dumb misuse of English. The word is "can't" not "doesn't." I've led harder, but haven't been able to yet at Pinns. I guess we can't all be superheros. Lastly, if by "done a bunch of obscure stuff on his own" you mean first ascents, then no not really. I've only done a few FAs at Pinns, maybe a dozen or fifteen? And none of any partular quality. Instead, I decided 20 years ago to climb everything at Pinns easier than 5.12. Why? Because I love the place. It is beautiful and climbing there still has a big element of adventure (now there's something that I think Bridwell himself would agree with!). I have climbed many, many obscure lines there, but that's none of your business. I do it for myself and out of a love of climbing there. As far as putting obscure stuff in a guidebook, I want it to be a complete reflection of all that's been done there, which is why the history chapter is very long (the chapter is also very positive and complimentary of climbers who have come before us). Will people climb long, older stuff there? Some will, many won't. Is it a criteria now for a guidebook to include only stuff that many people will do? Maybe. I note that Marty Lewis in his 10th edition to the ORG guide included climbs that are now flooded, so maybe not. Here's a novel idea: if you don't like it, don't buy it when it comes out and don't ask for a freebie. Instead, write your own book on what you want covered. And for God's sake don't go out into the Pinnacles outback, you might actually have fun on something that isn't a trade route.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
Nov 10, 2005 - 04:47pm PT
Despite all this reasonableness...

I'm still backing my "DIE" endorsement.


;)
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Sonora, California
Nov 10, 2005 - 04:49pm PT
It's not a rumor Jody. It's a photo of you doing a Tyrolean across Bear Gulch (cute little Converse All Stars). I put it in to illustrate a point in the history section that Pinns has often been seen as a training ground for "bigger and better things." (And thanks again for forwarding the photo.) And by the way, if anyone reading this has decent quality photos of climbing at Pinns that they're willing to let me look at for inclusion please forward them in digital format (with information about who's climbing on what and who took it). Thanks. And by the way, don't worry Billygoat about calling "a lawyer a dude." As far as you need to know, I'm a human being and a climber. I am a lawyer for a living but that's not relevant to me as a climber AND it sure the hell doesn't make me better or deserving of more respect than anyone else.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
Nov 10, 2005 - 04:54pm PT
don't be mistaken though, he'll still try and bargain all the leads he can get.

:)
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Sonora, California
Nov 10, 2005 - 04:57pm PT
Oh yeah Munge, that's a given. If you're not leading you're not climbing. Hand over the rope NOW.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
Nov 10, 2005 - 04:57pm PT
Do people on the East Coast say "Dude"?
Mr_T

Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
Nov 10, 2005 - 05:05pm PT
If this dude put up the FA of "Cuidado", then he's a bad a** for putting up the best route there. If not, then nevermind.

I welcome the new guide. If, he's not chipping or stuff like that one fellow was accused of 10 years ago, then whatever... Unless you live in the Gilroy/Salinas/Monterey area, why get worked up on the Pinns anyway? It's funky/obscure area w/ rock as solid as Lee Vining Ice. Gotta love pulling brittle 5.11 edges over a crap bolt that flexes under your own weight in 100 degree heat!

For Bay Area folk it's the same drive to places w/ better rock: Table Mtn, Donner, the Leap, Big Chief... And for a whole hour more, you get Yos.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Sonora, California
Nov 10, 2005 - 05:15pm PT
One more "by the way." Don't expect it soon. I'm serious about giving the place careful and thorough treatment (what it deserves in my opinion). This takes incredible amounts of time (unbelievable amounts!). Earliest release date I'm looking at is Autumn of '07 (ie at least 22 more months).
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
Nov 10, 2005 - 05:16pm PT
I like this Mr_T guy.

He'll be able to scare all the noobs from ever going there.

Sweet, more darkened waterstreak jug hauls over 3/8" x 4" well placed and camouflaged bolts for me.



billygoat

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2005 - 05:20pm PT
I hope people on the beast coast say dude, it would do them some good.

Dude, Hostile=Retrobolting. No matter who did it. Yes, I know Brad insists it wasn't him, but there sure as hell isn't a hook move at the lip. So what is Bridwell's opinion of any of his old lines being destroyed in character (regardless of who did it).

And, on that note, should a quarter inch bolt really be replace by a five piece rawl? Especially in shitty ass pinns rock? I think the ASCA took a very interesting stand on this issue when they asked Sloan for all their gear back.

There's definitely a shady area in bolt replacement where the line between retrobolting and rebolting is not firmly established. I would love to know Bridwell's opinion. I mean, if it were my route and I'd done it forty years ago (this is all totally theoretical), I'd at least want somebody to ask permission before they went up and changed anything. Look at, for instance, Klaus' recent posts on the Jesus Built My Hotrod page.

Brad, I will say, it sounds like a cool guidebook. It'll be interesting to compare the history section to that of the Rubine guide. I would have said you couldn't climb harder than 11c, but that seemed a little rude. Don't you think you probably could if you tried? Especially if you did in the past. Also, too bad you don't identify with your career more. Sucks when we can't get paid to do what we love. As I recall, Marx had something interesting to say about the evolution of the alienated worker and their devotion to hobbie...what was that...
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