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Hard Rock
Trad climber
Montana
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May 11, 2010 - 09:36am PT
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Wildlilfe-
The Forest Service researcher "Mr. Elk" until he retire wrote a short paper on dogs chasing wildlife wasn't a big deal on our open space (winter elk range). We have mountain lion close to town. I've seen 3 up close. The first year we had the open space closed down in winter for the elk we had a mountain lion sit on a dead elk 1/2 mile up a grass slope above a school.
I couldn't get the other get the other wildlife researcher done the hall to take a public position but the logic goes like this:
We have talked about a deer hunt here in town (other towns have had them. We have already paid for a elk hunt. So either you pay the dog owners (dog food cost money) to have their dogs chase deer - which will move the deer and the mountain lions back from the city or you are against CHILDREN and wILDLIFE. AND you are unAMERICAN.
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tooth
Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
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May 11, 2010 - 09:45am PT
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I used to live on the Duffey Lake road. A buddy and I spent 2 hours a day mtn biking and building trail during those years. Used to see bears almost every other day in the morning, doing whatever they do in the streams/ponds at 6am. I was riding fast on a bike, quiet, on the trail, would always scare the bears coming around a corner.
So we got a dog. As a pup, but over the next two years it got really good at running ahead of us and staying on the trail, but alerting the bears that we were coming. Never had any close brushes with bears again, they were at least looking at us when we appeared down the trail.
Another friend had a Jack Russell. Calmest, quietest terrier I had ever known. Took it on a week-long canoe circuit. Sat in our laps in the canoe all day, sometimes jumped from canoe-to-canoe. Sat around the fire and only ran off twice when bears came by - he chased them a long way off for us.
Now my buddy has a pit bull. This dog has the same calm attitude as the terrier, which is a reflection of my buddy's character. I'm convinced that if you get dogs as pups, they reflect the owner's personality a lot. Comparing the two dogs to the same breed I can't believe they were as calm as they are, never barking, never jumping on you, etc.
And he never leashes them, unless he happens to take them to populated areas where crazy people or dogs could do unexpected things or harass him for having a pit bull on the loose.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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May 11, 2010 - 10:13am PT
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 11, 2010 - 10:21am PT
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Sweet ;)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 11, 2010 - 10:38am PT
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Aya, what you seem to forget in your touchy feely description of how mama and papa wolf raise their cubs is that when the cubs get out of line they get bit. I don't watch the dog wisper guy and he may well be a jerk but it is a fact that animals use physical force to teach their kids and keep them in line.
I lived with a bengal cat for 9 years and I tried super hard to teach that little monster with kindness. One day I watched animal planet and saw that mama Lepord kicked little jimmys ass when he messed up. After that little educational TV session I found that biteing my jungle beasties ear when he was bad had a much higher success rate than saying, Be a good kitty now!
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Aya K
Trad climber
New York
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May 11, 2010 - 11:46am PT
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Tradman - don't get me wrong. I absolutely have no qualms about whacking my dogs when they're out of line, just like I have no problem with a parent whacking their kid if it's acting up, as long as it's appropriate.
I guess here is where an example would be appropriate - say I catch my dog with her head in the garbage. She's not supposed to eat garbage. She's not doing it out of fear, she's not doing it out of aggression, she's not doing it out of dominance, whatever - I tell her to "leave it" (a command I've taught her. Most dogs pick it up super quickly). If she does, awesome. I give her a cookie for leaving the garbage alone and she learns that she's not supposed to go in the garbage, and in fact she gets cookies for not going in the garbage. In the real world, though, garbage is sometimes too delicious to leave. So if she ignores me when I tell her leave it (which is what happens, of course, my dog ain't the brightest) I have no problem giving her a whack. A few good whacks and she's not going to do it again. In fact, she doesn't anymore. Of course, I could just keep the garbage in a place where she can't get to it, but that doesn't really solve the problem of what's going to happen when we go to someone else's house or something.
Now she knows that if she leaves the garbage alone, I'm happy and might (might being the operant word that keeps her doing this behavior in the future, the hope!) give her a treat, and if she absolutely can't resist and goes in there, I'm not going to be happy and she might get smacked (usually a big "how could you!" gasp is all my dogs need to quit what they're doing, not a real smack).
However, let's say I have a dog that barks at visitors every time they come to the door. Cesar Milan's suggestion is to yell at the dog, or physically reprimand it (this might range from a quick tug on the choke chain, to an "alpha roll" to hanging it by its choke collar, whatever gets the dog into a state of "calm submission") until it submits to you. According to him, all dogs that bark in this situation are exerting their dominance and you need to make them submissive. Unfortunately, he's just wrong. Most of the time, the dog's probably barking because it gets attention (it learned that if it barks at the door, mom or dad yells at me or hits me, which is attention, and positive reinforcement), or because it's scared (if I bark and the big scary person comes in, mom or dad let me hide behind them or they take me away from the scary person), OR, sure, they're saying this is my house, get the F out. Either way, the solution is NOT to frighten or beat the dog into shutting up. If it's barking because it gets attention, better to ignore it, or distract it by making it do something it knows how to do and rewarding it for that (teach the dog that if it sits and shuts up when it hears the bell, it gets cookies, yay!). If it's a scared or genuinely aggressive dog, the root emotion the dog is feeling is anxiety - rolling it on its back as if you're about to kill it (because remember, taht's what an alpha roll is), is only going to increase that anxiety. At some point it will either snap and bite you, or you'll push it into a state of elarned helplessness... and if your dog is going to be so afraid of you that it doesn't express any emotion, why have a dog?
Getting rebuked for acting out of line is fine in my mind, AS LONG AS you have explicitly TOLD and TRAINED the dog what the APPROPRIATE behavior in the situation is and it's just ignoring you. I absolutely do not believe that you can use Cesar Milan's method of using dominating by staring, choking, kicking, scruffing, rolling, etc as your first line training method to teach a dog how it is SUPPOSED to behave - I think his methods will only to teach a dog how it is NOT supposed to behave in the best of circumstances, and in the worst, is going to make their problems worse. Like I said, there are loads of people out there who have tried his methods because they've seen them on TV and have been bitten, or had to subsequently bring their dogs to veterinary behaviorists to ultimately be euthanized, because they (the dogs) were frightened and aggressive to the point of being unfixable.
In the case of the 7 month old dog at the crag - the owners have to work up to leaving it alone for extended periods of time. Work at home. Work on sit and stay. Work on staying while you go out of the room. Work on it until you can leave the puppy's sight for ten minutes and it is still there when you come back. Then maybe it will be ready for the crag. Sure, if you take it climbing and keep leaving it alone, it might eventually realize that you always come back, but it's scared out of its mind the whole time. Not cool.
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Aya K
Trad climber
New York
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May 11, 2010 - 11:48am PT
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Er, the concise version is - I have no qualms with giving your dog a smack in the appropriate situation, but if you try to learn what the appropriate situation is from Cesar Millan, you'll be wrong most of the time.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 11:51am PT
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Regarding dogs and wildlife impact. While there are situations where dogs are a huge problem for wildlife (e.g. ground-nesting birds) - SHEEP are not one of them. For sheep, the big problems are:
1 - Humans (development, hunting)
2 - Domestic sheep, cows, etc. (disease, competition for food)
3 - HORSES! (disease)
According to science, the scary presence of dogs are way behind on these impacts, and in most places where these bighorn sheep are threatened, we still ALLOW horses and domestic animals... which makes no sense.
From DEFENDERS of WILDLIFE on bighorn sheep:
http://www.defenders.org/wildlife_and_habitat/wildlife/bighorn_sheep.php#
Hunting, loss of food from livestock grazing and disease from domestic livestock have devastated bighorn sheep populations. While livestock is not as much of a threat as in the past, loss of habitat from development is an increasing threat. Normally, predators like mountain lions, wolves, bobcats, coyotes and golden eagles do not pose a threat to bighorn sheep. However, in areas where sheep populations are low, the death of a sheep from a natural predator can be a risk to the larger population.
Hmm, no mention of dog presence whatsoever.
Here's a recent pneumonia outbreak from domestic animals:
http://www.flatheadbeacon.com/articles/article/pneumonia_sweeps_through_western_montana_bighorn_sheep_herds/16476/
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 11, 2010 - 11:59am PT
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Cleo, I don't know if the wildlife biologists at Skaha are correct in the dogs impact on mountain sheep issue. However, they express significant concerns about it, and a climber/biologist (and dog owner!) who knows the area very well concurs. It's a bit like real and imagined impacts of climbers on falcons - when it comes to charismatic fauna, and hypothetical let alone actual impacts, the balance will always come down on the conservative side.
Unfortunately, it's the owners who need training more than the dogs. I don't blame the dogs for running free, overtly and subtly harassing the wildlife, and generally behaving in an anti-social manner. They may not know any better. Their owners do.
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apogee
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2010 - 12:19pm PT
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"According to science..."
No disrespect, but a single link from a DoW website does not qualify as conclusive scientific evidence to support your point. More sources, please.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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May 11, 2010 - 12:20pm PT
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coz: My dog was eaten by a mountain lion in Squamish
Rio?
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
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^^ Fair enough that a single link doesn't qualify, and I've looked briefly into this before (and talked to wildlife biologists), and this is consistent with other stuff I've seen. Also, DoW isn't exactly a dog-lobby.
I'm not making the argument that dogs have zero impact, just that in the grand scheme of things, we are terribly inconsistent, and that "No Dog" policies *often* cite wildlife issues (while allowing far more serious threats to the same wildlife in the same region, e.g. horses). Hence, I call bullshit on most of these reasons, when the real reason is "We don't like dogs here." I think we human predators hiking around are at least as stressful as dogs (<-- not supported by research, just by personal observations watching wildlife run as fast as they f*cking can away from me in areas where hunting is allowed.)
I'd love to engage in a spirited debate supported by mounds of research links... alas, I do not have the time or the energy. My only goal with that is to introduce a bit of skepticism to the masses - e.g. if wildlife is the reason for not allowing dogs, is this real, or just a convenient excuse that most people accept at face value? (sometimes, it IS real)
For the large ungulates, the lost of "corridor" habitat and wintering/birthing grounds poses a great threat. This is the cornerstone of the conflict between, for example, environmental groups and ski resorts, since resorts (and the gas stations and restaurants and condos) develop in those critical corridors and wintering grounds.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
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google bighorn sheep threats...
Start here. A ton of references at the bottom of the document. One could start reading all of those.
http://www.blm.gov/ca/pdfs/cdd_pdfs/Bighorn1.PDF
This is where I'd start chasing links, then go to an academic search engine.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 11, 2010 - 12:41pm PT
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Aya, Yea, you can bribe dogs. cats are either good or not and you can't do all that much to influence them. They know perfectly well what you want but simply choose to ignore it unless it suits them to to comply. Its all part of training the humans...
On a diferent note I have been exceptionaly non rednck latly. I have a pesky pokypine hanging arround wrecking stuff. BINTD a bullet and a shovel would have solved the problem.. Instead I have been trying to reason with him. He has really old eyes. I talk to him from a distance of about 3ft and try to connect on a telepathic as well as a verbal plane. When I told him he could not live in my woodshed last fall he moved out for the entire winter. Then this spring I had to tell him that he could not eat my sandbox (the plow truck) and he seems to have stopped. He did try to move back in the shed last week and we had to have annother conversation about not liveing in there.. so far that has worked for a week. I must be spending too much time alone....
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MeatBomb
Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
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May 11, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
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Now everybody will think I am a nut.
Yep.
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apogee
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
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cleo, I would agree that some land management policies have been established by using the rationale of influence on wildlife. I'm sure that some of the time, this rationale was simply the strongest legal or political basis by which a land manager could act on their intent to establish a new policy. There are certainly instances where a land manager holds a bias or agenda against a user group and then seeks to find whatever means to achieve their goal, to be sure.
I kinda doubt that this is the case in the majority of land management policy decisions, though. Speaking for myself (as an avid dog person & owner), I simply find that the sum total of all the negative impacts of dogs in the backcountry usually outweigh my personal desire to take my dog there. These impacts have been well-described in this thread, and include the potential impacts on wildlife. Ultimately, my greatest concern is the impacts that dogs have on my experience in the backcountry, and on the experiences of others. (Obviously, this includes the impacts on the environment itself.)
As someone stated upthread, these discussions are not going to sway everyone's opinion one direction or another, and some people are going to continue to bring their dogs to the crags. Perhaps, though, discussions like this will at least raise some people's awareness of the fact that not all people appreciate seeing your dog at the crags, and that they just might manage them a little bit better in the future.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 02:41pm PT
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apogee...
I think we agree more than disagree.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 11, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
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Known to chase wildlife and snatch salami sandwiches...
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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May 11, 2010 - 03:11pm PT
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Luckily most people don't even consider my dog a dog!!!
Funny story~
Back in the 90's I was climbing at Mt. Charleston. A "flavor of the month" 5.14 climber was at the crag with his cat. Well, along comes one of the developers\ locals, well known for his pitbulls. Those dogs treed that housecat in a massive pine, and the owners spent ages tring to coax it down, climbing the tree instead of their precious project.
My dog just chilled out in the cave watching the comedy.
I would have LOVED to see someone(especially a Canadian! ;~} ) try and tell this guy that his dogs didn't belong at the crag.
Everyone seems so entitled to have the outdoors JUST the way THEY want it.
This land is your land,
this land is my land...
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hossjulia
Social climber
Eastside
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May 11, 2010 - 07:11pm PT
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Aya, I find it interesting that 2 people can watch/hear the same thing and get 2 totally different takes on it. I've followed him for sometime, very skeptical at first, but have never seen the things you describe.
Cesar Milan does NOT yell at dogs, on the contrary, he advises owners to stop this stupid practice. It just makes you sound like you are barking. The quieter you are, the less words you use, the more they pay attention, and this is what he advocates. The only time I have seen him choke a dog was when it was being a danger to him or others. (And there is always a quick, complete release)I would too if I was about to get bit. He "bites" them in the neck with his fingers, and uses a shushing sound, not the obnoxious "EH" that I got in the habit of doing. Try it, you can "sush" with a smile on your face, you can not when you make the "EH" sound. The only other physical contact I have seen him make is a tap or bump, not a kick, with his foot to redirect their attention while on leash. I have never seen him roll, pin and yell at a dog, which is still a very common training method that I have proven myself does not work all that well. In fact, I heard him explain to an owner that asked about this why it does not work.
I have seen him roll small dogs and pin them so they can not bite him, but then he massages them and gets them to relax before he releases them, he does not yell at them or hurt them. I have used this method with great success too.
I have picked up some valuable stuff from his show, but am not really an avid fan. I have also seen him make mistakes, and caught the show where he showed his mistakes and explained them.
The best advice I got from his show, which I already mostly practiced, is to not let your dog be in front of you when walking, running, biking, skiing, hiking or at the door, etc. They might think they are the leader and will do what THEY think is best, not always what you want. Lots of good reasons for this, including their own safety, scaring wildlife and other people. Not everyone likes dogs and I respect this.
A sharp snap on the leash to get them back, followed by a COMPLETE release is what he does with strong dogs to get them to heel. So many people have no concept of this release, it is the reward that teaches your animal, not the correction. You may have to do it many, many times in quick succession, but there should always be a moment of complete slack after a correction.
If the dog is not walking at your side with a reasonably loose leash within a reasonable time, say 5 - 20 minutes, your timing is off and you are not getting it.
You keep tension on the leash all the time, so will they keep tension in the leash by pulling. (Ditto for horses mouths)How can they walk on a loose leash if they have never felt one? Those retractable leashes are trouble and should never be used.
I have never seen him use a pinch collar, infrequently a chain choke, mostly he uses those cheap one piece rope cinch leads. Since he mostly works with big dogs with bad habits, he needs the control that narrow cord provides.(A large link chain choke or wide flat collar are the least severe. The narrower the collar, the more severe it is, no matter the material.)
I have "worked" with large unruley dogs who would just as soon bite me, it's tough and scary. I've also worked with over 100 different breeding stallions and feel lucky to have survived some of them unscathed.
Frustration, anger, impatience, indifference and belittlement are all counterproductive when playing with animals. I hate to use the words training or work anymore, it just encourages negativity. Playing with your animal, being consistent by not changing the rules, and teaching it to be happy in our society is the goal.
Anything else creates an unstable animal that does not know what is expected of it. We all know how much THAT sucks.
Being able to visualize in your head what you want the animal to do works. They are non verbal communicators so talking without visualization is pretty much meaningless. Most have very sensitive hearing, yelling at them can make them tune out.
Edit: I never hit the button to post this, I got inturupted by a dog coming to visit for a couple of days so I closed the page.
I wasn't going to post it, too wordy, too nerdy, too what ever.
But here it is 2 hours later, surley read by a few.
Not meant to offend.
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