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apogee
climber
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 10, 2010 - 02:01am PT
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Yeah, I know this is a well-trodden subject. Anyway....
I was at Tahquitz yesterday, and on our way to our chosen route, my partner & I happened upon a puppy (~7 months) secured with a leash to a tree at the base of a route. There was one of those dog water/bowl deals nearby, but the bowl/tray was empty. The owners had just started up a classic, very easy Tahquitz route, and were working on the first pitch (a jungly pitch that goes at about Cl. 4.d). Noting that the dog's bowl was dry, I asked if this was their dog, which they confirmed- I then let them know the dog had no water. They said not to worry, that the dog had had lots to drink already- not satisfied, I offered to pour more water from the bottle lying next to the bowl. They said fine....unfortunately, the bottle was empty. So, I poured the pup some water from my own pack, and informed the owners that I had done so. They said thank you, and continued on their route.
Since our arrival, and for hours afterward, the pup barked and leaned anxiously towards the crags. The dog shook nervously, and was obviously quite afraid of everything around it. Our route was adjacent to theirs, and I watched them climb it...very, very, very slowly. The dog continued to bark periodically, and we could hear it all afternoon. We topped out, and returned to our packs to find the dog still there, barking, and the owners nowhere in sight. Still terrified, and had soiled it's water dish, which we rinsed and replaced. My partner was especially disturbed by this, since he has recently acquired a pup of a similar age. The pup had a shock-collar on, which was exceptionally tight- the contacts were placed on each side of it's throat. Not sure where the remote control was. Eventually, we moved on.
That really sucked.
As we walked off, we talked about things we would have liked to have done- had we a pen and paper, we talked about penning a respectful note describing the concern, and offering that they might consider alternatives for the future. We also discussed more drastic measures, like taking the dog with us, and leaving a note on the owner's car as to how to contact us and retrieve their dog.
I know a lot of people really like having their dogs with them at the crags, and in many cases the dogs do just fine, and are quite enjoyable. (I've been known to do the same with my pup.) Too many times, though, bad shite like this happens, and it really sucks. I don't know any of the circumstances behind the type of dog owners these folks are- they very well may be good people, and at worst, simply ignorant (in a non-pejorative sense). What I do know is that an innocent animal had a really sucky day at the crags for reasons it has no understanding of, and there were lots of other people around that heard all about it.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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May 10, 2010 - 02:07am PT
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Nice post!
Erik
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Sherri
Trad climber
WA
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May 10, 2010 - 02:38am PT
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Well stated, Apogee. So sorry for the pup's bad day, not to mention the unfair burden its owners placed on any compassionate climbers within sight/earshot of it. :(
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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May 10, 2010 - 02:48am PT
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Tie the owners to the tree with a shock collar (tight!), with an empty dish and leave 'em for (let's see 1 human year equals 7 dog years...so one human day equals...) that long. Let them whine all day and ignore them.
No excuse as far as I can see.
Cruel.
You are to be commended for your self control.
That dog will remember to bark whenever it goes to the crags, and will probably associate rocks with depression, fright, and frustration...
Cheers,
DD
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W. S.
Sport climber
Montana/France
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May 10, 2010 - 03:16am PT
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A dog once dug into my pack and ate my sandwich while I was belaying. That was irritating, but I think the dog was pretty happy. As much as I like dogs, I don't think they belong at the crag. With single pitch climbing, it can maybe be done reasonably, but if you're multi-pitching I'd say tying the dog up at the base is unacceptable. If you want to climb, climb. If you want to spend time with your dog, spend time with your dog. But don't fool yourself by thinking that tying up your dog while you climb is a good idea for anybody involved.
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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May 10, 2010 - 03:25am PT
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I dont really feel dogs belong at crags, they are usually just annoying and distractions to their owners or others. It can be frustrating looking at your belayer and having them yelling at their dog. Who cares about the stupid dog? Pay attention here!!
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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May 10, 2010 - 05:00am PT
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What sort of dork takes his best friend out for a day outdoors, and then says, "Hey, now watch what I get to do .... and you can't." And then ties the hapless animal to a tree, and leaves it to wonder if it's been abandoned.
Anyone who wants to take their pet to the crag should get a monkey. And train it to set top-ropes.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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May 10, 2010 - 08:16am PT
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This is like a crag version of that Animal Planet show where animal-control officers have to rescue abused pets from their owners. Confronted, the owners more often seem just stupid than cruel.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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May 10, 2010 - 09:13am PT
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Idiots.
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tooth
Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
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May 10, 2010 - 10:21am PT
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Was climbing at Sakha yesterday and there were at tonnes of people there with their dogs. What a great place!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 10, 2010 - 10:26am PT
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Simply stated- dogs DO NOT belong at climbing areas unless they are well behaved and well cared for which is often not the case.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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May 10, 2010 - 10:28am PT
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I thought this thread was a reference to UGLY CHICKS at the crag, imagine my relief to find out it was just another bitchethon about dogs.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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May 10, 2010 - 10:51am PT
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and no as#@&%es! Sorry Medusa!
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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May 10, 2010 - 12:02pm PT
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A seven-month-old puppy shouldn't have even been forced to make the approach to Taquitz. At that age their joints are prone to over-use injury that will dog them the rest of their lives.
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quartziteflight
climber
Who knows?
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May 10, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
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Studly,
Ugly chics at the crags, hahaha thats f8cking priceless!
beware the hosebeast!
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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May 10, 2010 - 12:11pm PT
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I am not a dog lover. You might get me to agree that a well behaved dog can be at a single pitch crag with a party of 3 or more - so someone is always with the dog. When we took our little kid to the crags, we always had a party of 3 so someone could be with the child.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Mill Valley, CA
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May 10, 2010 - 12:16pm PT
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This post comes at a timely moment for me. For months I have been yearning to get a dog again. My old Charlie was put down in 2005 and during his life I wasn't climbing/skiing every weekend.
I just can't figure out how to climb and ski and also have a dog. What do you do with your dog every weekend when you are away on climbing trips, either multi-pitch routes or routes with hard approaches, and what about skiing all day-- the car is too cold, and in summer, the car is too hot.
I guess this is why people have cats.
I like cats.
But I love dogs.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 10, 2010 - 12:19pm PT
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donini: Simply stated- dogs DO NOT belong at climbing areas unless they are well behaved and well cared for which is often not the case. What if they're belayed to a blue camalot?
Anyway, generally agreed - most dogs do belong in nature, running about under the active supervision of their owners. They don't belong at crags. I expect that eventually dogs (especially off-leash!) will be banned at Skaha, given their adverse effect on wildlife, especially mountain sheep, but also general anti-environmental behaviours. The area became a park as much for the sheep as the humans, after all.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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May 10, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
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A while back at tahquitz I was coming down the friction descent and passing Open Book when from the bushes there was a pretty gnarly sounding bark. Having been mauled before as a child I have a natural disdain for agressive dogs, so went over to see, and there was an angry pit bull 'guarding' the packs while the climbers were on some route, we couldn't see. At first I thought it must have been a stray who wandered up the trail, but nope, about a 3 foot leash and no water. Barking like MAD - echoing hard off the big walls next to us. I started yelling up to see if someone owned it, and no response came. Never found out who brought it up there.
I never get why you would do that. "But honey, we gotta bring the dog."
What the hell? Sport crags, thats cool, even if they are a bit annoying, I can usually deal without being bothered. I love my 2 year old boxer and would love to take him to crags, but he is just too intense and hyper, so I don't. Some people don't give a sh!t.
And of course there are always those cool dogs with good owners who make your day nicer, but thats a seperate thread :D
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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May 10, 2010 - 12:35pm PT
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Daphne, for day trips leave the dog home. Weekends or longer, my mother-in-law is kind enough to welcome a 5th dog into her home.
I suppose a friend works just as well, if they're a dog person and willing.
Some dogs are o.k. at the crags, most aren't...
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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May 10, 2010 - 12:41pm PT
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Agree, dogs don't belong at the crag. Nothing annoys me more than while eating some annoying, begging dog stares me in the face, slobbering wanting my food!!!
Yeah, I am a cat lover.
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Daphne
Trad climber
Mill Valley, CA
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May 10, 2010 - 12:45pm PT
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I can see a friend taking my dog the occasional weekend, but I am gone at least 2 weekends a month. Clearly, I need a mother-in-law.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 10, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
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I love my dog and take her on trail runs, skiing, and along on all sorts of stuff. She's 9 and has never been to a crag. The occasional dog behaves, but most are in a pain in the a$$ at rock climbing areas. A lot of dogs don't even like seeing their owners climb, it stresses them out.
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Yvergenhauf
Trad climber
UT
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May 10, 2010 - 01:00pm PT
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I had to post this pic of my dog at a crag.
He's well behaved and he always enjoys the day out.
All dogs should not be lumped together, kind of like people.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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May 10, 2010 - 01:02pm PT
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I've had many, many more bad experiences with people at the crags than with dogs.
And most of the "bad dog" stories here are really about bad dog-owning people.
When the terrain suits it and we're not getting far off the ground, I sometimes do
bring my dogs to the crag. They love it there.
They'll never grab your lunch or chew on your rope or bite you. They don't fight with
other dogs and they don't crap within 10' of any trail, a stream, or even a climber's
path. I don't know how they learned that.
You're far more likely to step in climber poo.
The dogs aren't perfect, they're just dogs after all. They might bark nervously when
you first walk up the trail, but that turns into tail-wagging if you turn out to be friendly.
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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May 10, 2010 - 01:08pm PT
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I've never seen a dog put a bolt next to nateral pro. which i see all the time now days. dogs should be at crags - climbers should not. go bark at the moon & eat sh#t. Any dog I have has already been abused before I got them - by humans- so i usually take them with me. if you don't like it tough I don't like selfish humans. My dogs don't leave trash - tape - & all kinds of stuff - wack out trails - put up first assent were they don't belong. when i get a first second or 900th i try to leave things so the next person feels like they were the first. can't say that for most of you.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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May 10, 2010 - 01:10pm PT
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donini said:
Simply stated- dogs DO NOT belong at climbing areas unless they are well behaved and well cared for which is often not the case.
That applies to climbers too Jim. There are good dogs and good climbers, and there are bad dogs and bad climbers. In both cases, it's the PEOPLE that are the problem.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 10, 2010 - 01:16pm PT
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I agree it's the dog owners who are the problem. Dog owners, it's not okay when.
Your dog barks incessantly after you tie it to a tree and go climbing.
When your dog growls menacingly when I walk by.
When your dog jumps on me like I'm it's new best friend.
When you don't clean up your dog's poop.
The place where I have witnessed the worst dog owner behavior is Boulder.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 10, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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I hate it when people ruin things for other responsible people.
Leaving your dog unattended is usually a problem waiting to happen.
I love seeing dogs at the crags when their people are around. They are having a blast. But MORE OFTEN than not an unattended dog is frightened or barking. People think their dogs are fine alone, but they dont' know because THEY AREN'T THERE. At Lover's Leap multiple times people have come down the descent and their dog mellows out when they see them, so they think the dog was fine, but it was barking and nervous before they walked up.
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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May 10, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
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HandCrack
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal.
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May 10, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
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Locker said:
"I personally DO NOT like when people bring their "PETS" with them..."
I guess Blitzo will have to leave you at home from now on!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 10, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
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Sorry weschrist but it's not my job when I go climbing to make every dog in the vicinity like me. It's the owners job to keep their pets from infringing on others experience.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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May 10, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
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It's the owners job to keep their pets from infringing on others experience.
I agree with that too, but I think Wes was making a point similar to mine -- that if
it's a good-natured dog (and if it's not, then it definitely shouldn't be there), how
you react towards the dog will influence how it reacts to you.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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May 10, 2010 - 01:41pm PT
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idiots don't belong at the crags. This is not Species specific.
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apogee
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 10, 2010 - 01:55pm PT
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"...if it's a good-natured dog (and if it's not, then it definitely shouldn't be there), how you react towards the dog will influence how it reacts to you."
This seems to be an intent to shift the responsibility for the presence of dogs towards other people. I just can't buy into that- it's your dog, and you chose to bring them to the crag and impact other people's experience.
I like dogs- always have, and own one myself. I've seen a few dogs at the crags who were well-mannered and fun to be around, but unfortunately, most of the dogs I have encountered haven't been a positive asset to my experience, or many others around me.
Some people don't like dogs at all for very valid reasons, and others like dogs, but don't find their presence to be part of the experience they seek in the backcountry. If at least 1/2 of the people in backcountry feel this way (if you can use the opinion trend of this thread as a gauge), why is it ok for a few people to impose their view on others?
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pyrrhonota
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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May 10, 2010 - 02:00pm PT
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If you dog is growling at me when walk up that is a the dogs and the owners problem. Like others have said, keep you dog at home unless you are with it at all time, and keep it away from me. What makes you think that I should be okay with you dog running up to me, slobbering on me, and generally taking away from my experience. A lot of dog owners are just like smokers that think other people shouldn't mind their cigarette smoke.
Do you know how your dog acts once you have climbed out of sight?
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 10, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
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and vice versa. There are lots of places that don't allow dogs too... That argument could be made for pretty much any activity that goes on outside - e.g. hiking trails, logging, driving, kayaking, hunting, horses, mountain bikes, CLIMBING. you're never going to make everyone happy. if you make everything illegal, than you pretty much shut down access for everyone, and that in itself is imposing an experience.
Really... this is a first world problem. On the scale of things to worry or complain about, it ain't a big deal. Everybody chill out.
(SPH cragging, nobody around, not leashed or tied, and a happy doggie hanging out outside)
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apogee
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 10, 2010 - 02:09pm PT
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"On the scale of things to worry or complain about, it ain't a big deal."
I'm not sure the terrified Australian Shepard puppy I encountered at Tahquitz over the weekend would agree. Or the dog last summer who was left at the base and disappeared- forever.
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Hard Rock
Trad climber
Montana
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May 10, 2010 - 02:28pm PT
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Life isn't perfect. You choose to climb where there are other peoople and dogs. You could climb and live where you don't have to deal with other people. I was raised in a family with 5 kids. Only my dad was right handed. I have accepted the fact that I'm going to have to live in a society with right handed people in it. Last Thursday I was doing trail work on city space above my house. Some friends came by so I told them to take my dogs along with them while I worked. Walked dogs are happy dogs. This is the second tme in a dozen years of trail work my dogs have been taken for a walk. Some dogs have added to your outdoor recreation. No human have stopped and offered to help.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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May 10, 2010 - 02:32pm PT
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Walked dogs are happy dogs.
Now that's the truth. In their ancient wolf souls, they wanna hike 20 miles a day and find caribou.
We took ours out for a hike yesterday. The humans covered 4.5 miles according to signs.
The old dog, maybe twice that, and the young dog, four times?
They bothered no one, not even caribou.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 10, 2010 - 02:57pm PT
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Calm down weschrist, I'm not against dogs being at a crag, I just have an issue with irresponsible owners. I would never call authorities as you seem to imply. By the way, it's okay to think that dogs are just (as in barely) okay.
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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May 10, 2010 - 03:16pm PT
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F*#k you Donini!
just kidding.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 10, 2010 - 03:48pm PT
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Nah, I'm not saying there isn't something bad about a terrified puppy, but I wasn't there like you were, so I'm not commenting on the situation at hand, other than to say that one must find a balance between coddling a dog and over-exposing a dog/puppy to something perceived as stressful.
Certainly, there are better ways to train/introduce a puppy to being a crag-dog.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 10, 2010 - 04:07pm PT
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Wes, your dog looks like a furry version of mine.
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apogee
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 10, 2010 - 04:13pm PT
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Cute dogs. I'd be willing to bet most of them have very considerate owners.
How come nobody ever posts pictures of the dogs (due to their inconsiderate owners, obviously) who create negative impacts on other users, or who are placed in frightening or potentially harmful positions?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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May 10, 2010 - 04:33pm PT
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apogee:
How come nobody ever posts pictures of the dogs (due to their inconsiderate owners, obviously) who create negative impacts on other users, or who are placed in frightening or potentially harmful positions?
That certainly could be done. Like we post pics of bad anchors, and such.
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I'm hurtin . . .
Ice climber
midwest
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May 10, 2010 - 05:29pm PT
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Leave yer dogs at home!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 10, 2010 - 05:31pm PT
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Kevin forgot to include harassing wildlife in his list. Bearing in mind that from the perspective of the wildlife, and of wildlife managers, the simple presence of the dog may amount to harassment. Scent, noise, etc. Let alone dogs running off leash, chasing and even killing critters.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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May 10, 2010 - 05:36pm PT
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Should be shot and deep fried.
Just kidding that only happens in Arizona if you don't have your papers...
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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May 10, 2010 - 05:51pm PT
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To many people I'm thought of as a dog 'hater'. Couldn't be further from the truth. However, bringing dogs to the crag just isn't a good idea. You can't manage a belay and a dog at the same time. I've been belaying for a long time and consider myself to be pretty good at it, but not with poochie in the equasion. So please all dog owners out there, leave 'em at the house and have a better day climbing.
(shocking myself with PC-ness)
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pedge
Trad climber
SW
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May 10, 2010 - 06:08pm PT
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You no dogs at the crags hardliners should get over it, because we are going to keep bringing them and enjoying having them out there People who don’t know how to train a dog to be calm and friendly or who choose a dog that has been bred to behave otherwise shouldn’t bring their dogs out anymore than they should bring their loud, obnoxious and aggressive friends or selves. As to freaking out because you can’t leave your pack open on the ground or your sandwich unattended like in the gym or your opened water bottle where it can be knocked over…. You put food on the ground and even my very mellow and gentle dog might assume its for him, because that’s the way I usually feed him. The only time I have ever seen problems with dogs at crags are with those dogs that people keep on leashes because they never took the time to train them to be able conduct themselves well off the leash. I guess I think that a person’s dog reflects who they are in the same way a kid might, and that we should each be concerned that we take the time to teach them what they need to know to be able to be given their freedom. I don’t like constantly barking dogs at all, and I have never had one, but even worse than that are owners who are constantly screaming at their dogs.
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apogee
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 10, 2010 - 06:21pm PT
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"...stop the hate, dog haters."
Funny, most of the people who aren't keen on dogs at the crags seem to be dog owners themselves. Dog hater? Hardly.
Most of the pro-dogs-at-the-crags people seem to be basically saying 'get over it, I'm gonna do whatever I want'. It's a familiar position in climbing.
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atchafalaya
climber
Babylon
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May 10, 2010 - 06:33pm PT
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I have no problem with dogs running wild and barking, but all you people at the crags and boulders really suck. Sacklickers...
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 10, 2010 - 06:53pm PT
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Most of the pro-dogs-at-the-crags people seem to be basically saying 'get over it, I'm gonna do whatever I want'. It's a familiar position in climbing.
NO, most say well behaved dogs with their owners present are cool. Unattended or problem dogs should not be there.
If someone has a problem with with a well behaved dog with the owner present, then yeah, get over it.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 10, 2010 - 07:30pm PT
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I'm going to start posting pictures of PUPPIES and you're all going to have to get over it.
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hossjulia
Social climber
Eastside
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May 10, 2010 - 07:35pm PT
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Pretty good rule of thumb, if your dog can't do an extended down stay off leash, they need more training, or they probably ought to not be at the crags.
I get leashes off my dogs as quickly as possible, and won't own a breed/type that is not reliable off leash.
Backcountry skiing, they go naked, just in case they run into a branch on the way down. I teach them to stay behind me, no matter what, skiing or hiking.
Skiing downhill can get hairy, Max and I zagged into each other on a run, I saw it coming, had no time to correct, so I tackled him. Better than running over his legs with my skis. Funnier than sh#t. He yelped but then thought I was playing. Good times. He also learned to stay WELL back.
He got hot easy and would often try to hug the base of crags for shade. I would move him, he'd creep back. So one day a party above yells "Rope!", drops the cord and it lands on Max. He gets up and moves, looking up with a "gee why'd you do that" look. Next time at the crags, he's out of the way anyway, but when someone yelled rope, he got up and moved furthur out, looking up. Mt partner and I had a good laugh over that.
First time I took him climbing, when he noticed the people on the walls, he woofed a few times and growled low. He was under 2.
He watched my friend go up with great interest, and a little alarm.
When I got off the ground, he tried to jump up and grab my foot, so I told him "Off, Max, down." He did what I said and layed down, then started barking at me! My partner was giggling and petting him, sushing him.
I had to come down and reassure him, then I put him in a firm down stay.
He was fine ever after. Oh he had to learn a few more things, like the rope incedent above, but he was young.
I had to work pretty hard to get him not to just step all over stuff on the ground, but he got it. He learned what "No Dust!" meant and to not trundle rocks.
Well trained dogs enjoy more freedom than those that are not, it is worth it to take the time to adjust them to our society. They are much happier when they know what is expected of them, and your actions are consistant.
That 7 month old pup at Taquitz was probably ruined in myriad ways by that experience. Can you say destructive seperation anxiety?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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May 10, 2010 - 08:04pm PT
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What about sheep and chicken at the crags....i saw chicken climbing once....rj
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altelis
Mountain climber
DC
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May 10, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
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Sheep DOGS at the crag you say?
I spent the long hours training her so I could have the privilege of bringing her places with me.
I was in Pawtuckaway bouldering once and this dog starts sniffing around. Somebody comments that "oh that's so-and-so's dog. he steals lunches. har har har". fvck that. i love my dog, but she behaves. no questions asked. when she even thinks about disobeying you give her a glance and she sulks. them herding dogs do love to please. but you bring your dog to the crag and laugh about how he steals peoples lunches, don't expect civility in my response. ho ho no.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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May 10, 2010 - 08:52pm PT
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I haven't read the entire thread yet, but I've got to stand up for my older dog.
He's been climbing and backpacking with me since he was a year or two of age.
When I'm climbing in remote areas, he hikes in with me, then waits until I return.
For the first pitch, he whines, wanting me to come back.
After that, he takes a nap.
When I'm rapping down, he whines, waiting for me to return.
I don't tie him up, he doesn't wander, and is a welcome friend when I get back to terra firma.
It's all in the training, and knowing where you can bring them and where you can't.
There are no absolutes when it comes to dogs, or anything in life for that matter.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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May 10, 2010 - 09:03pm PT
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There are no absolutes when it comes to dogs, or anything in life for that matter.
Good point.
I think what a lot of our posts have been here is dueling anecdotes.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 10, 2010 - 09:35pm PT
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Dogs scare wildlife in ways in addition to just chasing it, digging it up, barking at it, and other obnoxious behaviours.
Dogs have a similar scent to coyotes, wolves and such predators. Both their actual scent, and their urine markings. Invisible to us, no obvious effect. But there are significant behavioural and habitat effects on many species simply because dogs are present - forgetting about their more apparent behaviours. At Skaha, the cliff area is key mountain sheep spring lambing habitat, and the presence and activities of dogs (and humans) over the last 20 years may have driven the sheep further uphill and inland, to less desirable lambing terrain - that is, more exposed to predators.
Off-leash dogs also do a good job of retrieving annoyed bears, which I guess is a rough sort of justice.
And yes, humans often disturb widlife enough already that we don't need to compound it with dogs.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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May 10, 2010 - 09:43pm PT
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The dogs from Sirius soon recognized that Jedi mind tricks were more effective than begging.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 10, 2010 - 10:20pm PT
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Last May, two juvenile cougars at Squamish were shot. One was preying on dogs on the backside trail, sometimes taking them from their owners, despite leashes. And a friend had his dog snatched by a coyote while walking on the dike in Brackendale. All part of the environment, where wilderness begins at your back door, whether or not you appreciate or accept it.
Tami's brilliant avalanche poodle is undoubtedly a reasonable exception to the no dogs in wilderness principle.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 10, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
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Have to say that my sympathies always go with the wild over the domestic when it comes to the animal kingdom.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 10, 2010 - 10:27pm PT
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Damn, I've already lost my visa to get into Boulder.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 10, 2010 - 10:37pm PT
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I love dogs. I think that about 1 out of every 20 or so dogs I encounter at the crag or in the backcountry are properly behaved. About half of those are too arthritic to hunt wildlife, go through your pack or create some sort of unwanted distraction/disturbance.
There was a lost dog at a crag a few weeks ago that was humping damn near everything in sight. That dog was too preoccupied by humping so it never had the opportunity to become annoying by any of the previously mentioned ways. I wonder if the proper owner ever showed up???
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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May 10, 2010 - 10:57pm PT
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i have a different question.... Dogs in Jtree? At the Crags? Hell i have a dog i love more than anything, and i will not bring him to a National Park/Monument-there are certain places dogs just shouldn't go, because there are higher needs, i.e., wildlife and wilderness preservation. There is tons of land, desert and mountain, available to dogs and their owners. That's where they belong.
And HossJulia, your observations were interesting-i have a beagle, occasionally terrible off leash-does that mean he gets less pleasure or is less of a dog because he is on leash? if you saw his face as we walk through the wood s together, you wouldn't think so. Sometimes i feel there is a very judgemental aspect with on leash dogs, like they aren't well trained or their owners are boobs.
Jes sayin....
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Aya K
Trad climber
New York
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May 10, 2010 - 10:59pm PT
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Nobody's mind is every changed by these threads, blah blah blah blah blah
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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May 10, 2010 - 11:10pm PT
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OK!
I love “good dogs.”
“Good dogs” relate to “responsible owners”
I believe that dogs mimic their owner’s personality.
If you are an aggressive person: your dog is aggressive.
If you think you are “the only person that matters”-----your dog picks up on that behavior.
If you are not a “controlling person”-----your dog does not have direction, and does not know what is expected of it. (Nazis are the very best dog owners!)
If you are a clueless as#@&%e: your dog acts the same----but then you don’t care.
I will suggest!
Maybe your dog doesn’t belong at the climbing area: unless it is roped up and climbing with you.
Just-------using my powers of observation.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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May 10, 2010 - 11:40pm PT
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Pate: Let's not bring up the "Nazi-Jewish thing." My relatives got out of Germany “just in time” to avoid the death camps.
What I am trying to point out is: dogs want direction!
It comes from the wolf-pack origins.
Dogs need a decisive: “pack-leader” to show them how to behave.
I have close neighbors that have two dogs: that are out of control from lack of direction. When the neighbors leave, and hand the dogs over to Heidi and me:--------the dogs get some direction.
They fetch, sit, heel, and do all those Nazi-dog things.
Otherwise, the neighbors pretend their dogs don’t want to be Nazi dogs.
Dogs want a pack leader, and I am sorry I incited you by using Nazi as the leadership term.
“Ronald Reagan like” would probably have incited you too.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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May 11, 2010 - 12:01am PT
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I don't know if it's buried in this thread or some other, but what Locker said once really resonated w/ me.
Something like...'Dogs don't belong at the crags, but whenever I see one, he's always a buddy.'
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MisterE
Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
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May 11, 2010 - 12:06am PT
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"doggerel": hee...hee..hawhaw...snort...guffaw...
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Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
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May 11, 2010 - 12:25am PT
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Pate, your dog is gorgeous!
Why is it that dogs always seems to know when a person is not a dog lover and then proceed to annoy the hell out of them?
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Aya K
Trad climber
New York
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May 11, 2010 - 12:27am PT
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Digressing a bit now, but Fritz, you have it just a bit wrong (perhaps it is more semantics than anything, but semantics are what gets us into really dangerous territory like where the "Dog Whisperer" has taken the public, ugh); firstly, I need to point out that dogs are not wolves. In the wild, dog packs do not have a leader. They are simply a loose association of animals who sort of come and go in an amorphous "pack" when convenient. No leader per se.
As for wolves, again, there is no leader in the classical sense of an "alpha male" who is dominant ant tells everyone else what to do; it is a family where mom and dad know how to get food and so on, and so the rest of the pack (their kids. Wolves are family units, not packs of unrelated animals) look to mom and dad to show them what to do - mom and dad control the resources, but there's no "you this because I'm telling you to" going on. More like, "hey dad, will you give me some food if I do this?"
That said, while dogs don't want or need a leader bossing them around, they DO need a mom or dad whose lead they can follow.
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Aya K
Trad climber
New York
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May 11, 2010 - 12:37am PT
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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May 11, 2010 - 12:46am PT
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Aya K: I will agree we are on the "same page."
Unfortunately, it appears that you do not agree with the message in the TV series "Dog Whisperers."
We do!
Dogs want and need: a "pack leader" to give direction.
If you don’t want to train and discipline your dog------you are a "cat person."
Cats don't like Nazis-----dogs love and obey them.
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Anastasia
Mountain climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
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May 11, 2010 - 01:11am PT
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I don't have problems with a dogs being at the crags. Most are relaxed, happy, and well trained but this... This is wrong.
A young puppy without a place to feel secure, wearing a shock collar as if he's a threat and being without water is just plain abuse. Dang puppy need to be in a safe place where it can roam, "a place that offers the security of home or..." It should be in the company of it's owner.
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flakyfoont
Trad climber
carsoncity nv
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May 11, 2010 - 03:18am PT
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untended 7 month old puppy = Cougar food on a rope
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Aya K
Trad climber
New York
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May 11, 2010 - 07:21am PT
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Fritz, I have HUGE problems with Cesar Milan. Don't believe everything you see on TV! Do your own research, please!
Firstly, the basic premise of his "metjod" is wrong. From what I can tell from his show (I admit I have not read his books or anything), he believes that the majority of problem dog behaviors stem from dominance issues. He suggests that dogs are wolves, and that wolves have an alpha animal who bosses everyone else around - if dogs have an alpha pack leader, they'll be happy. This theory is based on research that was absolutely flawed; even the man who conducted the research has been vehemently trying to get this message out. As I mentioned earlier, neither dogs nor wolves have nor need a dominant pack leader.
Secondly, I find the application of his method that he demonstrates on his show to send an absolutely awful message to his audience. The :"dominance" method of training has been demonstrated to at best be ineffective and at worst highly dangerous by all modern research. He advocates doing "alpha rolls"; having established beyond a shadow of a doubt that no such thing exists in the wild (the only time a wolf will perform an "alpha roll" on another wolf is right before it's going to kill it), the only thing an alpha roll accomplishes is intimidating and frightening your dog. If your dog is freaking out, running around and barking because it is deathly afraid of something, how on earth is flipping it on its back and scaring it into shutting up helping it? How is this furthering your bond with your animal? In modern animal behavior, this is called "learned helplessness"; sure, your animal shuts up and sits quietly, but it is a quiet that is devoid of any emotion or behavior; it is what Cesar calls calm submission. Wrong!
There are MULTIPLE episodes where he literally strangles dogs until their tongues turn visibly blue and they collapse to the ground, gasping for breath; again, he calls this calm submission. I call it strangling. Animal abuse on national television. You may disagree, but absolute least, you can't possibly think that it is appropriate for him to be advocating putting naive owners into situations where they're likely to get bitten - he himself gets bitten on the show pretty often. Sure he has a disclaimer, but I've seen several people who have been hurt by theior dogs after trying his "methods"
Ask any modern veterinary behaviorist; they will tell you that if you have an aggressive dog you do NOT take it and purposely put it into a situation to elicit this aggression! They will tell you that if you have a fearful dog, you do NOT take it and purposely put it into a situation where it will be overwhelmed with fear; this is called flooding and it is absolutely cruel.
I do agree with some of the things he says - exercise is of utmost importance, that people don't realize the effect that their reactions to their dog's behavior has on its subsequent behavior, the importance of a calm demeanor and body language and so on, but this is not what I actually SEE happening on his show. Here's a website I found last week when I was actually having this exact same discussion with someone else who suggested to my friend that she learn how to train her new puppy by watching the Dog Whisperer:
http://www.askdryin.com/dominance.php
It covers actually pretty much all of the issues that I have with CM in a very concise way (much better than I could ever write!) with video examples and so on; I suggest you read it through carefully and compare the videos.
My personal preference is to have a dog who is well behaved because it WANTS to be - because it is motivated to try to please me (which is the goal of modern behavior training), rather than a dog who is well behaved because it has been dominated into submission and only knows what NOT to do to avoid being stared at, rolled, choked or otherwise physically reprimanded (seriously? What year is it? Why are people still advocating choke chains when we have options that work SO much better and SO much safer??). I
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okie
Trad climber
San Leandro, Ca
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May 11, 2010 - 09:23am PT
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This gets real polarized, this dog debate thing.
I love dogs, cats, and all sorts of cute little furry things that don't need or want/deserve my love...I'm a real softie, that way.
But I hate it when I'm running in the forest and a large mammal comes crashing through the brush aimed at me, snarling... and then the human comes trotting up and says the cliche that I've heard a hundred times: he's just a puppy, he won't hurt you...as I'm in my fighting stance...
A dog chewed on my face when I was a child- but I don't hold that against all dogs.
One time at an ecologically/politically sensitive area in SE Utah where cattle have more rights than people a woman brought her dog to the crag and went climbing. The dog promptly disappeared into the desert talus for the rest of the day. The owner was unconcerned...I found the dog back at the car as it was getting dark. The owner was still up there somewhere climbing, trying to get in one more pitch.
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Hard Rock
Trad climber
Montana
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May 11, 2010 - 09:36am PT
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Wildlilfe-
The Forest Service researcher "Mr. Elk" until he retire wrote a short paper on dogs chasing wildlife wasn't a big deal on our open space (winter elk range). We have mountain lion close to town. I've seen 3 up close. The first year we had the open space closed down in winter for the elk we had a mountain lion sit on a dead elk 1/2 mile up a grass slope above a school.
I couldn't get the other get the other wildlife researcher done the hall to take a public position but the logic goes like this:
We have talked about a deer hunt here in town (other towns have had them. We have already paid for a elk hunt. So either you pay the dog owners (dog food cost money) to have their dogs chase deer - which will move the deer and the mountain lions back from the city or you are against CHILDREN and wILDLIFE. AND you are unAMERICAN.
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tooth
Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
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May 11, 2010 - 09:45am PT
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I used to live on the Duffey Lake road. A buddy and I spent 2 hours a day mtn biking and building trail during those years. Used to see bears almost every other day in the morning, doing whatever they do in the streams/ponds at 6am. I was riding fast on a bike, quiet, on the trail, would always scare the bears coming around a corner.
So we got a dog. As a pup, but over the next two years it got really good at running ahead of us and staying on the trail, but alerting the bears that we were coming. Never had any close brushes with bears again, they were at least looking at us when we appeared down the trail.
Another friend had a Jack Russell. Calmest, quietest terrier I had ever known. Took it on a week-long canoe circuit. Sat in our laps in the canoe all day, sometimes jumped from canoe-to-canoe. Sat around the fire and only ran off twice when bears came by - he chased them a long way off for us.
Now my buddy has a pit bull. This dog has the same calm attitude as the terrier, which is a reflection of my buddy's character. I'm convinced that if you get dogs as pups, they reflect the owner's personality a lot. Comparing the two dogs to the same breed I can't believe they were as calm as they are, never barking, never jumping on you, etc.
And he never leashes them, unless he happens to take them to populated areas where crazy people or dogs could do unexpected things or harass him for having a pit bull on the loose.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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May 11, 2010 - 10:13am PT
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 11, 2010 - 10:21am PT
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Sweet ;)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 11, 2010 - 10:38am PT
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Aya, what you seem to forget in your touchy feely description of how mama and papa wolf raise their cubs is that when the cubs get out of line they get bit. I don't watch the dog wisper guy and he may well be a jerk but it is a fact that animals use physical force to teach their kids and keep them in line.
I lived with a bengal cat for 9 years and I tried super hard to teach that little monster with kindness. One day I watched animal planet and saw that mama Lepord kicked little jimmys ass when he messed up. After that little educational TV session I found that biteing my jungle beasties ear when he was bad had a much higher success rate than saying, Be a good kitty now!
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Aya K
Trad climber
New York
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May 11, 2010 - 11:46am PT
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Tradman - don't get me wrong. I absolutely have no qualms about whacking my dogs when they're out of line, just like I have no problem with a parent whacking their kid if it's acting up, as long as it's appropriate.
I guess here is where an example would be appropriate - say I catch my dog with her head in the garbage. She's not supposed to eat garbage. She's not doing it out of fear, she's not doing it out of aggression, she's not doing it out of dominance, whatever - I tell her to "leave it" (a command I've taught her. Most dogs pick it up super quickly). If she does, awesome. I give her a cookie for leaving the garbage alone and she learns that she's not supposed to go in the garbage, and in fact she gets cookies for not going in the garbage. In the real world, though, garbage is sometimes too delicious to leave. So if she ignores me when I tell her leave it (which is what happens, of course, my dog ain't the brightest) I have no problem giving her a whack. A few good whacks and she's not going to do it again. In fact, she doesn't anymore. Of course, I could just keep the garbage in a place where she can't get to it, but that doesn't really solve the problem of what's going to happen when we go to someone else's house or something.
Now she knows that if she leaves the garbage alone, I'm happy and might (might being the operant word that keeps her doing this behavior in the future, the hope!) give her a treat, and if she absolutely can't resist and goes in there, I'm not going to be happy and she might get smacked (usually a big "how could you!" gasp is all my dogs need to quit what they're doing, not a real smack).
However, let's say I have a dog that barks at visitors every time they come to the door. Cesar Milan's suggestion is to yell at the dog, or physically reprimand it (this might range from a quick tug on the choke chain, to an "alpha roll" to hanging it by its choke collar, whatever gets the dog into a state of "calm submission") until it submits to you. According to him, all dogs that bark in this situation are exerting their dominance and you need to make them submissive. Unfortunately, he's just wrong. Most of the time, the dog's probably barking because it gets attention (it learned that if it barks at the door, mom or dad yells at me or hits me, which is attention, and positive reinforcement), or because it's scared (if I bark and the big scary person comes in, mom or dad let me hide behind them or they take me away from the scary person), OR, sure, they're saying this is my house, get the F out. Either way, the solution is NOT to frighten or beat the dog into shutting up. If it's barking because it gets attention, better to ignore it, or distract it by making it do something it knows how to do and rewarding it for that (teach the dog that if it sits and shuts up when it hears the bell, it gets cookies, yay!). If it's a scared or genuinely aggressive dog, the root emotion the dog is feeling is anxiety - rolling it on its back as if you're about to kill it (because remember, taht's what an alpha roll is), is only going to increase that anxiety. At some point it will either snap and bite you, or you'll push it into a state of elarned helplessness... and if your dog is going to be so afraid of you that it doesn't express any emotion, why have a dog?
Getting rebuked for acting out of line is fine in my mind, AS LONG AS you have explicitly TOLD and TRAINED the dog what the APPROPRIATE behavior in the situation is and it's just ignoring you. I absolutely do not believe that you can use Cesar Milan's method of using dominating by staring, choking, kicking, scruffing, rolling, etc as your first line training method to teach a dog how it is SUPPOSED to behave - I think his methods will only to teach a dog how it is NOT supposed to behave in the best of circumstances, and in the worst, is going to make their problems worse. Like I said, there are loads of people out there who have tried his methods because they've seen them on TV and have been bitten, or had to subsequently bring their dogs to veterinary behaviorists to ultimately be euthanized, because they (the dogs) were frightened and aggressive to the point of being unfixable.
In the case of the 7 month old dog at the crag - the owners have to work up to leaving it alone for extended periods of time. Work at home. Work on sit and stay. Work on staying while you go out of the room. Work on it until you can leave the puppy's sight for ten minutes and it is still there when you come back. Then maybe it will be ready for the crag. Sure, if you take it climbing and keep leaving it alone, it might eventually realize that you always come back, but it's scared out of its mind the whole time. Not cool.
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Aya K
Trad climber
New York
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May 11, 2010 - 11:48am PT
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Er, the concise version is - I have no qualms with giving your dog a smack in the appropriate situation, but if you try to learn what the appropriate situation is from Cesar Millan, you'll be wrong most of the time.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 11:51am PT
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Regarding dogs and wildlife impact. While there are situations where dogs are a huge problem for wildlife (e.g. ground-nesting birds) - SHEEP are not one of them. For sheep, the big problems are:
1 - Humans (development, hunting)
2 - Domestic sheep, cows, etc. (disease, competition for food)
3 - HORSES! (disease)
According to science, the scary presence of dogs are way behind on these impacts, and in most places where these bighorn sheep are threatened, we still ALLOW horses and domestic animals... which makes no sense.
From DEFENDERS of WILDLIFE on bighorn sheep:
http://www.defenders.org/wildlife_and_habitat/wildlife/bighorn_sheep.php#
Hunting, loss of food from livestock grazing and disease from domestic livestock have devastated bighorn sheep populations. While livestock is not as much of a threat as in the past, loss of habitat from development is an increasing threat. Normally, predators like mountain lions, wolves, bobcats, coyotes and golden eagles do not pose a threat to bighorn sheep. However, in areas where sheep populations are low, the death of a sheep from a natural predator can be a risk to the larger population.
Hmm, no mention of dog presence whatsoever.
Here's a recent pneumonia outbreak from domestic animals:
http://www.flatheadbeacon.com/articles/article/pneumonia_sweeps_through_western_montana_bighorn_sheep_herds/16476/
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 11, 2010 - 11:59am PT
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Cleo, I don't know if the wildlife biologists at Skaha are correct in the dogs impact on mountain sheep issue. However, they express significant concerns about it, and a climber/biologist (and dog owner!) who knows the area very well concurs. It's a bit like real and imagined impacts of climbers on falcons - when it comes to charismatic fauna, and hypothetical let alone actual impacts, the balance will always come down on the conservative side.
Unfortunately, it's the owners who need training more than the dogs. I don't blame the dogs for running free, overtly and subtly harassing the wildlife, and generally behaving in an anti-social manner. They may not know any better. Their owners do.
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apogee
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2010 - 12:19pm PT
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"According to science..."
No disrespect, but a single link from a DoW website does not qualify as conclusive scientific evidence to support your point. More sources, please.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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May 11, 2010 - 12:20pm PT
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coz: My dog was eaten by a mountain lion in Squamish
Rio?
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
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^^ Fair enough that a single link doesn't qualify, and I've looked briefly into this before (and talked to wildlife biologists), and this is consistent with other stuff I've seen. Also, DoW isn't exactly a dog-lobby.
I'm not making the argument that dogs have zero impact, just that in the grand scheme of things, we are terribly inconsistent, and that "No Dog" policies *often* cite wildlife issues (while allowing far more serious threats to the same wildlife in the same region, e.g. horses). Hence, I call bullshit on most of these reasons, when the real reason is "We don't like dogs here." I think we human predators hiking around are at least as stressful as dogs (<-- not supported by research, just by personal observations watching wildlife run as fast as they f*cking can away from me in areas where hunting is allowed.)
I'd love to engage in a spirited debate supported by mounds of research links... alas, I do not have the time or the energy. My only goal with that is to introduce a bit of skepticism to the masses - e.g. if wildlife is the reason for not allowing dogs, is this real, or just a convenient excuse that most people accept at face value? (sometimes, it IS real)
For the large ungulates, the lost of "corridor" habitat and wintering/birthing grounds poses a great threat. This is the cornerstone of the conflict between, for example, environmental groups and ski resorts, since resorts (and the gas stations and restaurants and condos) develop in those critical corridors and wintering grounds.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
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google bighorn sheep threats...
Start here. A ton of references at the bottom of the document. One could start reading all of those.
http://www.blm.gov/ca/pdfs/cdd_pdfs/Bighorn1.PDF
This is where I'd start chasing links, then go to an academic search engine.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 11, 2010 - 12:41pm PT
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Aya, Yea, you can bribe dogs. cats are either good or not and you can't do all that much to influence them. They know perfectly well what you want but simply choose to ignore it unless it suits them to to comply. Its all part of training the humans...
On a diferent note I have been exceptionaly non rednck latly. I have a pesky pokypine hanging arround wrecking stuff. BINTD a bullet and a shovel would have solved the problem.. Instead I have been trying to reason with him. He has really old eyes. I talk to him from a distance of about 3ft and try to connect on a telepathic as well as a verbal plane. When I told him he could not live in my woodshed last fall he moved out for the entire winter. Then this spring I had to tell him that he could not eat my sandbox (the plow truck) and he seems to have stopped. He did try to move back in the shed last week and we had to have annother conversation about not liveing in there.. so far that has worked for a week. I must be spending too much time alone....
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MeatBomb
Gym climber
Boise, I dee Hoe
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May 11, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
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Now everybody will think I am a nut.
Yep.
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apogee
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
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cleo, I would agree that some land management policies have been established by using the rationale of influence on wildlife. I'm sure that some of the time, this rationale was simply the strongest legal or political basis by which a land manager could act on their intent to establish a new policy. There are certainly instances where a land manager holds a bias or agenda against a user group and then seeks to find whatever means to achieve their goal, to be sure.
I kinda doubt that this is the case in the majority of land management policy decisions, though. Speaking for myself (as an avid dog person & owner), I simply find that the sum total of all the negative impacts of dogs in the backcountry usually outweigh my personal desire to take my dog there. These impacts have been well-described in this thread, and include the potential impacts on wildlife. Ultimately, my greatest concern is the impacts that dogs have on my experience in the backcountry, and on the experiences of others. (Obviously, this includes the impacts on the environment itself.)
As someone stated upthread, these discussions are not going to sway everyone's opinion one direction or another, and some people are going to continue to bring their dogs to the crags. Perhaps, though, discussions like this will at least raise some people's awareness of the fact that not all people appreciate seeing your dog at the crags, and that they just might manage them a little bit better in the future.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 02:41pm PT
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apogee...
I think we agree more than disagree.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 11, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
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Known to chase wildlife and snatch salami sandwiches...
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drljefe
climber
Old Pueblo, AZ
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May 11, 2010 - 03:11pm PT
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Luckily most people don't even consider my dog a dog!!!
Funny story~
Back in the 90's I was climbing at Mt. Charleston. A "flavor of the month" 5.14 climber was at the crag with his cat. Well, along comes one of the developers\ locals, well known for his pitbulls. Those dogs treed that housecat in a massive pine, and the owners spent ages tring to coax it down, climbing the tree instead of their precious project.
My dog just chilled out in the cave watching the comedy.
I would have LOVED to see someone(especially a Canadian! ;~} ) try and tell this guy that his dogs didn't belong at the crag.
Everyone seems so entitled to have the outdoors JUST the way THEY want it.
This land is your land,
this land is my land...
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hossjulia
Social climber
Eastside
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May 11, 2010 - 07:11pm PT
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Aya, I find it interesting that 2 people can watch/hear the same thing and get 2 totally different takes on it. I've followed him for sometime, very skeptical at first, but have never seen the things you describe.
Cesar Milan does NOT yell at dogs, on the contrary, he advises owners to stop this stupid practice. It just makes you sound like you are barking. The quieter you are, the less words you use, the more they pay attention, and this is what he advocates. The only time I have seen him choke a dog was when it was being a danger to him or others. (And there is always a quick, complete release)I would too if I was about to get bit. He "bites" them in the neck with his fingers, and uses a shushing sound, not the obnoxious "EH" that I got in the habit of doing. Try it, you can "sush" with a smile on your face, you can not when you make the "EH" sound. The only other physical contact I have seen him make is a tap or bump, not a kick, with his foot to redirect their attention while on leash. I have never seen him roll, pin and yell at a dog, which is still a very common training method that I have proven myself does not work all that well. In fact, I heard him explain to an owner that asked about this why it does not work.
I have seen him roll small dogs and pin them so they can not bite him, but then he massages them and gets them to relax before he releases them, he does not yell at them or hurt them. I have used this method with great success too.
I have picked up some valuable stuff from his show, but am not really an avid fan. I have also seen him make mistakes, and caught the show where he showed his mistakes and explained them.
The best advice I got from his show, which I already mostly practiced, is to not let your dog be in front of you when walking, running, biking, skiing, hiking or at the door, etc. They might think they are the leader and will do what THEY think is best, not always what you want. Lots of good reasons for this, including their own safety, scaring wildlife and other people. Not everyone likes dogs and I respect this.
A sharp snap on the leash to get them back, followed by a COMPLETE release is what he does with strong dogs to get them to heel. So many people have no concept of this release, it is the reward that teaches your animal, not the correction. You may have to do it many, many times in quick succession, but there should always be a moment of complete slack after a correction.
If the dog is not walking at your side with a reasonably loose leash within a reasonable time, say 5 - 20 minutes, your timing is off and you are not getting it.
You keep tension on the leash all the time, so will they keep tension in the leash by pulling. (Ditto for horses mouths)How can they walk on a loose leash if they have never felt one? Those retractable leashes are trouble and should never be used.
I have never seen him use a pinch collar, infrequently a chain choke, mostly he uses those cheap one piece rope cinch leads. Since he mostly works with big dogs with bad habits, he needs the control that narrow cord provides.(A large link chain choke or wide flat collar are the least severe. The narrower the collar, the more severe it is, no matter the material.)
I have "worked" with large unruley dogs who would just as soon bite me, it's tough and scary. I've also worked with over 100 different breeding stallions and feel lucky to have survived some of them unscathed.
Frustration, anger, impatience, indifference and belittlement are all counterproductive when playing with animals. I hate to use the words training or work anymore, it just encourages negativity. Playing with your animal, being consistent by not changing the rules, and teaching it to be happy in our society is the goal.
Anything else creates an unstable animal that does not know what is expected of it. We all know how much THAT sucks.
Being able to visualize in your head what you want the animal to do works. They are non verbal communicators so talking without visualization is pretty much meaningless. Most have very sensitive hearing, yelling at them can make them tune out.
Edit: I never hit the button to post this, I got inturupted by a dog coming to visit for a couple of days so I closed the page.
I wasn't going to post it, too wordy, too nerdy, too what ever.
But here it is 2 hours later, surley read by a few.
Not meant to offend.
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Guangzhou
Trad climber
aSIA
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May 11, 2010 - 09:36pm PT
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I have two dogs and I occasionally take them to the crags. For me, it depends more on the crag than anything.
Here, when I climb, it's often just my partner and I. Something a couple other friends, so the dogs are fine with everyone. The local crag is also a sport area, so we're doing long multi-pitch routes.
I wouldn't take my dogs to climb in a multi-pitch area. I member running into daogs at looking Glass that were cam leashed to the first pitch of the route. I blame the owners, not me.
In some case, it's not just the crag, but also the day. A sport climbing area on weekends, I'd leave the dog at home. The same sport climbing area on a weekday morning, I might take them.
My two cents
Eman
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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wish I had a dog like this...
wooo hooo hoo hooo, and Tigger too!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Damn Pate!
You are so lucky you have her.
She is a beautiful girl!
I bet you love her like crazy.
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Aug 26, 2010 - 01:12am PT
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It's knott the dog, it's the owner--EVERY time...
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Jan 15, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
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A truly great and valuable:
Avalanche Poodle.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Jan 15, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
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Hank, did you know the evil Mr Hobbs? Man I loved that dog.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Jan 16, 2012 - 12:21am PT
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My dog is a crag dog.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Jan 16, 2012 - 10:32am PT
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nice larry,
good place to pass out, on that ice.
your beer'll still be cold when you come to.
and you well maintain plumb with you beer.
i know you were happy to reuinite with her after you j-tree excursion.
cheers and it was good to meet you.
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kennyt
climber
California
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Jan 16, 2012 - 11:06am PT
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Less people more dogs.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Social climber
Retired to Appalachia
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Jan 16, 2012 - 11:08am PT
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Dogs are like children
I want neither
The most dangerous woman on the planet is a single chick with a dog.
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Sioux Juan
Big Wall climber
Costa mesa
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Jan 16, 2012 - 11:52am PT
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if duh law says no dogs, then no dogs, get it ?
always do what duh law says, toke,burp,drive
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Jan 16, 2012 - 12:19pm PT
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Dog's belong outside - inside or where ever they want -- people belong at their homes.
If you are going to leave your home you need to be tolerant.
I don't believe in keeping pets. I have dogs because of human a__ holes the abuse & abandon them. My dogs have seen enough of human caused pain. They go with me when they want.
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Sioux Juan
Big Wall climber
Costa mesa
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Jan 16, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
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Locker you mean I can't bring my girlfriends ? do you ?
P B
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Jan 16, 2012 - 08:25pm PT
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fsck
climber
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Jan 16, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
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that is one righteous boxer on the left there
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Jan 17, 2012 - 12:02am PT
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Cheers to you weegie. Good times. See you out there....
Fsack, post some pics of yer little mongrel.
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Matt
Trad climber
it's all turtles, all the way dooowwwwwnn!!!!!
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Jan 17, 2012 - 01:47am PT
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my dog is better people than most of the people i know
say- maybe we should talk about keepin some of the *people* from the craggs?
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 23, 2012 - 09:44pm PT
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This morning, as I approached the large tree where the litters are secured at the base of Weeping Wall/Suicide, there was a good sized dog there (some kind of rottweiler blend) on a chain, barking quite forcefully & loudly as I approached. The owners were racking up at the base of 'Surprise', and uttered the usual 'she's ok...she just barks'.
Awesome. They are about to launch on a 3 pitch route, while their barking dog is secured in a location that is impossible to avoid by any approaching party to the most central feature on Suicide.
Someone mentioned it upthread...It ain't the dogs that are the problem, it's the choices of their thoughtless owners.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 23, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
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Yep!
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