Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Nov 16, 2005 - 11:46pm PT
|
My gosh! Too funny! I've been away down south for two weeks and look what happens! Russ and John, you guys had me pissing with laughter! But not so much as the madbolter himself!
This has been an interesting thread, a great study of human nature. Initially, the much-maligned villains managed to establish a reasonable degree of credibility for themselves. We were all nodding along and saying, "Geez, maybe these guys are OK after all...." Then two weeks later, they have managed to re-plant the goat horns firmly upon their heads. How is this possible?
Answer: in Salesman's Parlance, it is called "talking yourself out of the sale."
When the client says something like, "that looks good, what do we do now?" you simply shut up, hand him the pen and get him to sign. The last thing you want to do is continue trying to sell something that he already accepted.
These guys seemed to be winning, but they just didn't know WHEN THE HELL TO SHUT UP! And because they WOULDN'T shut up, they have gotten themselves right back into the hot water. There is a lesson here, one of introspection and perhaps an examination of one's self-worth. [If anyone should know about this sort of mistake, it's me....]
Or as Willie-boy once said, "Methinks he doth protest too much."
|
|
Landgolier
climber
the flatness
|
|
|
Nov 17, 2005 - 01:05am PT
|
Total madness all around, I don't think anyone ultimately had a cool temper about this, including a lot of people I respect. I'd kill to do this route just to see WTF is up there, though I don't have the skills and it wouldn't be any kind of a measure of the route even if I did.
I hope Ammon is sharpening hooks right now, or that the Dr. is prepping for his first speed record (oh man I'm sorry, I really am, that one was just too easy).
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
|
|
|
Nov 17, 2005 - 02:25am PT
|
I haven't posted in this thread yet, have I?
|
|
Ammon
Big Wall climber
Lake Arrowhead
|
|
|
Nov 17, 2005 - 03:17am PT
|
Ok guys!! Did Warren really nick-name your mom “Mother of Steel” (No disrespect, just what I heard)
AND….. everyone wants to know about “Rimming OUT”. I heard there was a BIG discussion in the SAR cache about it.
Exactly, what do you consider a bat-hook hole? They are there. Who put them in?
Oh yeah… any other topo than the Donny guide? And, did you draw that one?
Cheers, Ammon
|
|
mynameismud
climber
backseat
|
|
|
Nov 17, 2005 - 10:49am PT
|
Someone please, PLEASE, go climb this piece of sh#t and send a trip report and pictures. Now when I say piece o sh#t I do not in any means use it in a critical sense. Since anyone who has done some of my routes know that if someone can put up a piece of sh#t route it is I. If the said route truly is a piece o sh#t I give a hardy congrats. If not I say, DAM POSERS.
Going Crazy.
|
|
mynameismud
climber
backseat
|
|
|
Nov 17, 2005 - 10:58am PT
|
Just a curious question. How big of a transgression is it to put up a new route on EL Cap and bring a chisel? How many FA's that go through blank sections of rock go up without one? Also, how many routes have gone up without the use of hammer and steel?
I remember reading about guys shitin on those dudes ropes and thinking, Dam never thought of that. On the hood of someone's car, that is one thing. Butt their rope? That is some cold hearted sh#t.
|
|
deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
|
|
|
Nov 17, 2005 - 10:59am PT
|
Before this continues as another "Valley Boy" conspiracy thread, where the emphasis is on convincing everyone that the Camp 4 society was an elitist brotherhood who collectively plotted the control of others, one aspect of valley life that should be pointed out is the majority of people in the valley climbing scene who were naturally accepted, with the clear notion that the park belongs to no one.
There were plenty of people who did things differently but nevertheless became an integral (and often well-loved) part of the local climbing community. Bob the Aid Man comes to mind: he was always doing strange things on the cliffs that weren't considered the "norm," but nobody bothered him.
Then there were people who came and went and did something that people didn't like, but unless it was thrown in the face of the "locals", nobody bothered them either.
Perhaps it is true that some people were ostrasized. I never really saw it, I wasn't around when the incident this thread is about took place.
Fact is, I still have people who come up to me (a lot of Europeans especially) who remember me from back then, and express appreciation of support back when I was a valley "local", whether it was about loaning them some gear they needed, or providing information, or inviting them over to my camp for dinner to talk climbing, or whatever.
The conflicts I remember were generally between two vocal opponents who were each promoting their own way as it had to be. One, for example, was between Roland Arsons and Jim Beyer who were both prostelitizing, loudly, about their own climbing style. It came to blows.
Based on my experience in the Valley, I can only assume that the incidents described in this thread were escalated by both sides who were both trying to make a point and wouldn't stop until the other side "came around", and not because there was some conspiracy to shut out the non-"locals."
For certain, I got sucked into that phenomena in this thread, responding to what I considered contradictory statements and trying to define (defend?) style myself. So I see how it could have happened back then too.
But this is the online pseudo-climbing world. In the real climbing world, like in Yosemite, people who were primarily interested in climbing were more admired than anything else, irregardless of their climbing style.
|
|
MSmith
Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2005 - 04:15pm PT
|
deuce4
I sure know how it goes trying to let the tread be, then someone says something to which you think “That’s bogus, got to get the facts out.”
Hey, I have no doubts about the honesty of your last post and it’s a good contribution to this thread as it gives a description of some of the more noble facets of the local Valley community of the 80’s. Still, I do think that the Valley was dominated by an “elitist brotherhood”, to use your phrase, although the “brotherhood” was certainly not “collectively plotting the control of others.” A conspiracy is a group of people who secretly hatch a sinister plot. To restate my view of WoS in terms of a conspiracy overstates the situation, thereby opening the view to ridicule.
“Based on my experience in the Valley, I can only assume that the incidents described in this thread [1982] were escalated by both sides who were both trying to make a point and wouldn't stop until the other side "came around"."
John, I can see how, based on your Valley experiences, your assumption seems reasonable. In May of ’82 I was 20 yrs old with no agenda other than climbing the Slab, no chip on my shoulder, no care of making others think as I thought. Richard and I did all we could to keep our heads down. When challenged we fought for the right to do the climb, but beyond that we keep to ourselves as much as possible. I do see the Valley society we faced as a group of locals who dominated at their whim. Note that Werner didn’t advise us to go do our thing but keep to ourselves. Rather, he advised us to get off the rock. I can give another 6 or 8 good examples of this, but here are two. Circa 1988 Richard wrote an article on hooking which he submitted to Rock & Ice. At that time he may well have had more A4/A5 hooking experience than any Valley local. He had studied, designed, and built hooks. Richard invented and built the first hook now commonly known as the Fish hook. Rock & Ice seemed quite interested in the article. Eventually a rejection letter came back. Surprised, Richard called them up. He was told that (unspecified) climbers had questioned his standing to write on the topic, so they decided to not go with the article. If that doesn’t make the point, consider this: In about 1990 a big wall how-to book came out. Maybe someone out there can find this on your bookshelf and post the name of the book, author (Grossman?), and quote the passage which references WoS and concludes by stating that we were, and I quote, “banished forever” from the Valley. That’s right, “banished forever”, written by a Valley insider. So a conspiracy? No. A brotherhood of elitists? At least in our case it would seem to be an apt description. Hopefully our treatment was an anomaly, as your own observations suggest.
|
|
MSmith
Mountain climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Nov 21, 2005 - 04:43pm PT
|
Ammon wrote "Exactly, what do you consider a bat-hook hole? They are there. Who put them in?"
A bat hook hole is a hole you drill in blank rock to place a hook. Pretty straightforward. Perhaps the definition gets tricky if the hole is at the top of narrow ledge or on a sloping shelf, but there are no such holes on WoS.
"Oh yeah… any other topo than the Donny guide? And, did you draw that one?"
Looking at Meyers/Reid guide, it looks to be our topo or an accurate adaptation. I don't think there is a better topo out there.
|
|
Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
|
|
|
Nov 22, 2005 - 02:16am PT
|
Did Roland Arson do the "Roland's Hole Route" on Knobby Wall?
"The conflicts I remember were generally between two vocal opponents who were each promoting their own way as it had to be. One, for example, was between Roland Arsons and Jim Beyer who were both prostelitizing, loudly, about their own climbing style. It came to blows."
|
|
Btown
Mountain climber
Grand Junction, CO
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2011 - 12:18am PT
|
"I think the first thread was better than the sequel"
"John,
I concur. The dialogue was better, the characters were flushed out well, and there was a greater sense of setting. "
Awesome.
|
|
justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2011 - 12:59am PT
|
Nope Munge- you hadn't BTW ;)
Naw- I love a good WOS thread. An indelible footnote in Yosemite's history book.
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2011 - 01:04am PT
|
Project much?
Doesn't need to, onsights everything.
|
|
tooth
Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2011 - 01:07am PT
|
If the crappers hadn't done their thing, had the 'locals' accepted the climb, we would have had other people accepting that it was possible in their minds, and would today have seen not only a second and third ascent but more routes along these lines...
Just like the 4-minute mile.
If someone had crapped in Roger Bannister's shoes and influenced society to think that it was no fun, bad style, or too scary to run then it could have been at least 30 years before anyone else would have seconded a 4-minute mile. Like sport/bouldering etc, people simply would have started running off-road, or uphill without fully pushing the limits of track running.
|
|
justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
|
|
|
Mar 13, 2011 - 01:15am PT
|
Pate- remind me again... how many wives have divorced you?
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!