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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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DO NOT call Weld_it!
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Maysho
climber
Soda Springs, CA
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YMS is the only guide service that is permitted ie. has the legal right to guide in the park. You probably could find a "world class climber" who guides and who could do it for a bit less, but they would be fools to openly engage you on this public forum. In fact in times past YMS has tried to "sting" rogue guides, which might be what is going on here.
P.
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Robb
Social climber
The Greeley Triangle
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"Paging Mr. El Cap, Mr. El Cap to the white courtesy phone."
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Fuzzywuzzy
climber
suspendedhappynation
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The guides at YMS who guide El Cap are world class.
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WBraun
climber
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"I didn’t expect a guiding service to come on here and say "We guide, call me"
My rates are $3.5K per pitch.
Call me .....
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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John_Markton, don't take offense at the response, but you have to realize that if you are not known to the people who would guide but aren't YMS, they are not going to risk the hassle their life will become dealing with the consequences of a sting operation, it's not personal.
It's a total bummer to have a partner pull out of a trip... it happens, it delays your goal of climbing El Cap... you could go to the Valley and climb with various pickup partners... have a good time and be wiser the next time you plan to go up the big stone.
After all, it isn't going anywhere in our lifetime...
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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And don't bother bitching at Werner about the price... he'll just pretend not to hear you. He will however get you up the thing AND rescue you if you need it at the same time!
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Jobee
Social climber
The Portal
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Y.M.S =Y.S.S. Yosemite Spy Service
It's espionage out there ..ha, ha!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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> Well with gear and a plane ticket, I already have a lot invested.
Are you saying you bought gear only for doing El Cap; are you going to throw it away afterwards?
Was your partner going to lead everything, i.e. guide you?
Partners can't make it sometimes; time to find another or reschedule.
You can still use your plane ticket to come out and climb with other people.
Build some skills and meet new partners.
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slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Just out of curiosity, if you hire a guide, would he let you lead any pitches or you end up following/cleaning the whole way? You kind-of hope that a guide would be a bit of an instructor so eventually you can do it yourself. I would gladly pay a few thousand (or more) to get up to speed on aid and big wall techniques so I can do a wall myself in the future. Certainly, I would not want to do a guided tour where I follow the whole way and get to clean with the guide having all the fun.
PS. I have two drastically different experiences hiring guides. One was in England, I came alone for business trip and wanted to jump on some grit at a short notice. The guy was an awesome climber and once he figured out that I've been around the block, he let me lead a few nice pitches (hollering nerviously about me running things out a touch). The other time, I hired a guide (in the US) he was rude, condescending and was not willing to try the climbs that I wanted to try.
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mikeyschaefer
climber
Yosemite
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I'll do it for free as long as you make a 3.5k charitable donation to me.....
No really though, YMS charges 3.5k because it's not worth a guides time if it were any cheaper. It is a tremendous amount of work up there regardless of the skill of your "client."
I guided El Cap a few times for YMS and that was enough for me to figure out there are easier and safer ways to make money in this world.
The one guarantee you will get by hiring a YMS guide is a World Class Climber, and one that is probably a heck of a lot safer than most other world class climbers.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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John, I like Ed's advice. If you lead 5.11+ sport you obviously have some ability in the body movement of climbing. Leading only 5.10 a trad indicates you need more experience, a trip to Yosemite hooking up with climbers in Camp 4 would be an invaluable experience. Who knows, your dream still could come true, and, take it from me, there is always next year.
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jfailing
Trad climber
A trailer park in the Sierras
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It is my understanding that if you pay a guide to take you up El Cap, you aren't allowed to lead anything. Only jug behind. I think that even on a climb like the Nose, which as some moderate free climbing in it, the client is only allowed to jug.
While that is certainly one way up getting up the big stone, it would probably be much more satisfying to actually climb and lead some pitches yourself.
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slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
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the client is only allowed to jug Not even follow the moderate pitches free? If that's the case, it's a waste of cash.
PS. it would be pretty cool to try the hard pitches (changing corners and the great roof) on the toprope...
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Green Cove slabbage BITD!
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Following free is permitted. Leading is not.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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hmmm....
well if you happen to show up at the base of Zodiac near the end of May and happen to leave a small "donation" in the bottom of my haul bag (doesn't have to be four digits) you can jug my lines.
Just one thing..... don't mess with my Love Ewe™
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Roxy
Trad climber
CA Central Coast
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How long does a typical guided service up El Cap take?
Does the guide do all the hauling too? And cooking?
3.5k is a lot of money but I guess when you consider all the work involved that's not too shabby for being able to just walk up to El Cap and greet your guide and go...knowing that as long as you can jug you'll top out.
By comparison how much does it cost to be guided down a river?
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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The other time, I hired a guide (in the US) he was rude, condescending and was not willing to try the climbs that I wanted to try.
Who was that and where?
hmmm....
well if you happen to show up at the base of Zodiac near the end of May and happen to leave a small "donation" in the bottom of my haul bag (doesn't have to be four digits) you can jug my lines.
Wouldn't count as a solo though.
Prod.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Wether you're only following or swinging leads, it can still be a lot of fun (or not) and both styles still take a bunch of effort and some knowledge of what you're doing. People are always compelled to tell you that it's not going to be a disappointment if you're not leading b/c that's their deal, but it won't necessarily be yours.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Pay a guide when you can lead 5.11 "sport" and 5.10 trad?
Just show up and start sniffing around for competent partners like generations of climbers before you. geez.
I met a young German who showed up in Yo with a dream of El Cap.
I didn't take him up the Captain, but I did get him up Leaning Tower.
Don't be a weenie!!!
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Hoots
climber
Toyota Tacoma
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I will echo the advice everyone else is giving, find partners in Camp 4! It is fun, it is easy, and there is generally going to be someone there who will complement your skill set and have the same or similar ambitions.
My friend showed up last year, a lanky sport climber with zero aid experience, hooked up with a stoked partner, bought a couple WC ropemans for jumars and they proceeded to send the Nose in 3 days.
Don't look at the trip as one with such a singular purpose. Have some fun with it!
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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Wether you're only following or swinging leads, it can still be a lot of fun (or not) and both styles still take a bunch of effort and some knowledge of what you're doing. People are always compelled to tell you that it's not going to be a disappointment if you're not leading b/c that's their deal, but it won't necessarily be yours.
All very true. you'll have a blast wall camping for sure. But don't sell yourself short, grab teh rack on some c1 and c2 pitched. You'll love aid leading.
Prod.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Cut me some slack dave.
I've taken people up walls for nothing at all.
Setting up a belay and the like isn't rocket science, especially if you have agreed on some rules and principles beforehand.
You're worth more than $3,500 for El Cap? Wow, there must be some extra special services there....
If it's not worth it, why would you do it?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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So far as the Yoz climbing school having an exclusive on guiding El Cap, is everyone sure this is legally enforcable, as in a court of law? Has anyone ever challenged this? Of course it's all about the money, and the dough people feel they are being done out of, but some arrangement between pimps should be possible.
JL
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Have you been to the Valley before? If not there's a lot more than just El Cap to climb.
If you haven't been I'd suggest showing up and solo-climb the bolt ladder on the Le Conte bolder for easy aid/clean practice. Then hook up with a partner from the Camp 4 board and climb some classics like East Buttress of Middle Cathedral and/or some aid climbs like El Cap tree, South Face of Washington Column or Leaning Tower.
You don't have to go straight for the clitoris. What's wrong with a little kiss first boy?
A YMS guide for El Cap would be a fun experience if you want to spend the money. Abuse their ropes and gear. Let them haul. It's probably worth it. It is lame they have a guiding monopoly in the park though and you can't lead anything.
That said there are other ways to do it. There are people with houses near the park you could pay to stay at and then go climbing with them. You could ask around at the Yosemite Lodge Cafeteria (the table at the Southwest corner with scruffy looking climbers). It would be about half the cost and you'd get to lead what you want.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Yes dave it's true, we've all seen one pitch climbers turn into grip-fests a bit higher off the ground. But that can be sussed out on a couple warm up climbs.
As to the OP, I would echo other people in saying that there are LOTS of big cliffs worthy of your attention there....like EVERYWHERE YOU LOOK!!
They're kinda hard to miss.
Of course El Cap is a great goal too, but not worth waiting in a conga line.
Especially when there is no line on so many great routes there.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Of course El Cap is a great goal too, but not worth waiting in a conga line.
If only I could convince myself of that. hmmm....
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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When are you going to be there? As said just show up, put in your best efforts to hook up, and have the time of your life.
I've found parners for walls via forums, and also found them while in the valley, and even prearanged a backcountry meet with a YMS guide to do a route while backpacking with my wife. All good.
I would love to bump into you Nature, and may look for you near the end of the month near Zodiac base. I should be about climbed out by then.
John_Markton, I won't say I'll take you up anything grade VI, but if you are around the valley looking for a partner while I am in the valley this spring, I would love to do a few shorter objectives with you, provided everything is as advertised. I'll be around for a month, with an internet met partner, commited to one large route, and possibly two. That leaves for about two weeks of random fun, and if you wanted to jump in, I am game. No money or other bribes, I figure just getting to meet great people from great locals around the globe is more than enough payment for a day of sunburn on the back of the neck. Heck our free abilities seem compatable enough that there is only about two lifetimes of good stuff to climb at that level. If interested I'll post a pic of my ugly mug, so you can recognize me amongst the hordes, and know to strike up a conversation.
Bob
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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"Yes dave it's true, we've all seen one pitch climbers turn into grip-fests a bit higher off the ground. But that can be sussed out on a couple warm up climbs."
Really?
I've been up El Cap many times, and sometimes I get snail eye standing at the base when I'm not even planning on climbing.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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^^^^^^ My advice is to not look up while walking to the base.
When you get to the base it is then ok 'cause it is foreshortened
and it doesn't look so FREEEEEEEEKING BEEEEEEEEG!!!!!
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Really?
I've been up El Cap many times, and sometimes I get snail eye standing at the base when I'm not even planning on climbing.
Me too, but I don't lock up when I get 5 pitches off the dirt.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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I always feel outclassed by the prospect of going up, up, up, as I stand at the base ready to lose a lung from the 15 minute hike.
I'm just saying that being dialed and game when a warm bed awaits after a practice day is just not the same as fixing to rough it for many days in a row. Otherwise skilled people start making bad choices or second guessing themselves until they bail all the time once the whole enchilada is on their plate.
Edit...I wrote this re: Reilly before I saw survival's last post. For me, the 5 pitch mark is about exactly where I always feel like I want to bail. (Besides while racking, and standing at the base, and looking at the clouds, and...) It's sort of the commitment point. Up to there, it's still fixing/cragging.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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slight thread drift here....
can anyone estimate the distance and elevation gain from EC Meadow parking to the base of zod?
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Big Piton
Trad climber
Ventura
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We know how rules change. So, what I am about to say may be out dated.
However, a rock climb may be guided by outside company if they are on a tour type trip.
I was a guide for a outing style company and we applied for and got a temp. guide permit. We did routes in the valley and in the meadows. This was over 20 years ago.
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WBraun
climber
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The problem with getting YMS guide for El Cap is you get to lead nothing.
You jumar a whole wall and pay for it.
If that's all you want fine.
But this guy, the original poster, John, I highly doubt he wants to do that.
My rate for the Nose is $7000 per pitch and you lead and haul everything, all the pitches, including me.
That's reasonable isn't it .....?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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My rate for the Nose is $7000 per pitch and you lead and haul everything, all the pitches, including me.
That's reasonable isn't it .....?
BWA HA HAHAHAAAAAa!!
Werner, you are feckin' priceless!
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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slight thread drift here....
can anyone estimate the distance and elevation gain from EC Meadow parking to the base of zod?
Enough gain where you'd consider paying $3500 for someone to haul your loads. We did 50 pound loads and it about killed me.
Prod.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Ugh..you just made me remember hauling everything to Lurking Fear....and to Half Dome....GAK!
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Prod
Trad climber
Dodge Sprinter Dreaming
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Google earth shows it being around 950'
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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World class????
The Silverback is in a class by himself!
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा
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How much for a boulder problem Werner?
No pads.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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YMS is the only legal way to be guided up El Cap.
There is a lot of "under the radar" guiding on El Cap for several reasons. People like to climb with guides they have a relationship with, perhaps because they only speak French or Japanese and YMS doesn't have very multi-lingual guides. Others want to have a mentorship that lets them lead and take a greater role in the climb.
Other accomplished climbers do it to make some extra money. I'd caution those good climbers who aren't very experienced taking folks with no wall experience up El Cap to volunteer for a few hundred bucks or something. Pulling something like that off is about more than being a good climber, it's about anticipating potential newbie mistakes and errors, and having judgement about a myriad of other issues. It's a huge responsibility and those who do it repeatedly generally are cheaper than YMS but not really cheap cause its big big work.
That said, the OP has some strength and skills so who knows? Maybe he'll get lucky cause skills or not, over half the people bail on their first wall
Peace
Karl
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slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Who was that and where? Sorry, but he will remain anonymous. I have to give him a benefit of a doubt, since for all I know he is a good guide who was having a lousy day. Starting a day from us both trying hard boulder problems was a bad idea, anyway.
Truth is I would certainly pay whatever X thousand dollars if someone was going to teach me how to do something. For example, I would pay for aid lessons, just like one pays for golf lessons. On the other hand, I would not pay to have me jug, clean and haul - one does not pay to work as a caddy, even to Tiger Woods. Instead, I'd need to spend more time learning how to aid and do it myself a bit later.
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xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
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Natural thread drift. My Yosemite topo map says right at 1000 feet. Just enough to get a good warmup, right?
Bob
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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There is definitely an appearance of unfairness about only allowing YMS to guide, and in principle I agree that people should have choice about it. But there are some very big practical consequences from the slippery slope of completely opening it up too. For NPS, there's the immediate one that if you have any number of additional guiding ventures advertising El Cap, there are going to be problems and rescues when bad weather hits. Language problems, the whole bit they deal with already, but magnified.
Then, as if the trade routes aren't already about as big of a cluster as can be at some times, imagine when the number of parties increases by a factor of 2 or 10 or more due to the inevitable increase when an El Cap ascent can be advertised all over the place. Well, what happens then? First thing, a limited number of available starts per day or week, and these have to be apportioned between commercial and the general public, and it's a really bad situation just like the rafting rivers. And you have to have someone standing around checking paperwork at the base, which costs money. If you've got a permit, you're going, no matter how ominous the weather, because you might wait years in a lottery before you get another one. And that's not a good situation, either for climbers or rescuers (well, good for Werner's wallet, which is fine with me).
This costs money to administer, so now there's a fee, and a bureaucrat or three in addition to the DNR management hierarchy. Well, now that it costs so much to set the system up and operate it, they'll want to increase the take to cover it, so why not just expand the permits and fees to all the other rocks?
All this wouldn't happen at once, but it would assuredly happen in due course, and it would suck; there are LOTS of examples that demonstrate it would. So, despite it being imperfect and slightly unfair, I would personally hope guiding in Yosemite stays as limited as possible for the foreseeable future.
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Fuzzywuzzy
climber
suspendedhappynation
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Go up there and guide it and tell me you would do it for less $$$.
As Coz states: "3.5 is chicken feed, it's a couple weeks of effort all said and done, and a very dangerous job."
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland: what's not to love?
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I have hired YMS guides maybe six times and they are great.
$21k. $21k??!
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TomT
Trad climber
Aptos.
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Go to the valley, climb a few days, ask around, meet people, find a partner who is motivated (you can tell), worked for me. Do a grade 4 together, then fix some pitches, it will get clear.
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David Wilson
climber
CA
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I've met Scott Stowe a few times at the crags. He'd be the guy to take you up the captain for YMS and I bet it would be a blast. He's a super nice guy and incredibly competent. As mentioned above though, perhaps you wouldn't be allowed to lead, and that's a downside.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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6 guided climbs isn't necessarily six guided climbs up El Cap. If Jeff and Jobee were his guides, then I'm sure his money was well spent.
YMS has a monopoly on guiding in the valley, which seems unfair in some ways, but is part of a system that keeps the parks from being a total free for all of commerce.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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And Curry is what?
j/k
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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I know...but what if there were several Curries (or DNCs).
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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I'll pay 3.5 k for jobee to guide me up the Sea Of Dreams!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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GE has the altitude at The Bridge to be 3955'
base of the nose 4125' (~ 200')
base of the zod 4750' (~ 800')
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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I didn't say DNC was great, just that one of them is likely better than several of them. They have to answer for their impacts...not necessarily the way we'd all like, but there is some oversight to preserve the "wilderness experience" in the Valley.
If there was a taco truck in the meadows, I would totally buy a taco there if I saw it when I was hungry. But I'm still glad that taco trucks and trinket stands aren't allowed. It's probably not that hard to get away with illicit meadow taco sales, but at least the folks looking to ply their taco trade in the meadow have to do it on the DL.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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$3500 in 2010 seems cheap. In 1976 I charged $2000 for the Nose. It was too hot and I forced us down from the Stovelegs. Client was disappointed and then allowed himself to get pissed after he had forgotten that we were baking up there. I kept the $1000 down payment. I would have guessed closer to $5000.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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what coz said.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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John Markton (original poster here): I have some comments for you if you are still around.
As far as guides are concerned, I am absolutely certain they don’t make enough money for what they do, what they face, what they might have to fix or endure on your behalf. Our guide association is stellar and rigorous too. For a climber to reach the level where he or she is actually, honestly and truly, a master guide, requires one hell of a lot of experience, skills and yeah, talent for sure, and to do this well, you can't really be doing much else.
Three thousand five hundred bucks is hardly enough for to be babied up a 34 pitch, highly populated line like the Nose. And the guide doesn't get the half of it. That is just a few hundred dollars a day or so (gross receipts) and we all know those days are not 9am-5‘ers but more like 5am to 10pm’ers----17 hour days, when you are guiding someone up a long strenuous climb for days on end with all his problems and with everything getting slowly worse. That you would appeal to this group for the cheapest guide is repugnant--- guides feed themselves with this money; they don't buy Movado watches instead. Someone who can guide The Nose really competently and with style is not going to have many zeros in his checking account, believe me. He might not even HAVE a bank account. He/she is a professional climber and in all likelihood struggles like a son of a bitch to make ends meet, year after year. We must honor these men and women and not begrudge them a livelihood, even in the slightest.
Peter Haan
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Thanks, TR. I appreciate the note. I was arguing re: my own vocation, so clearly I am sensitive about the issue too.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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4 pages of the same old advice for a guy who will probably bail.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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This has been an interesting thread to observe. As a YMS guide since 1984 (and still guiding for them) I find the comments back and forth here amusing. Thanks Peter H. for your comments re: the guides. You hit it spot on.
To correct any mis-understanding, YMS clients do not jug ground to summit. After 20 successful guided trips of NW Face of Half Dome, a bunch of trips up the Nose, uncountable #'s up the West Face of El Cap I can tell you my clients are encouraged to free am much as they can, aid some of the pitches, and jug a few pitches here and there. The only reason a client would jug bottom to top is if THEY choose to climb a big nailer.
Doug
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hoipolloi
climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
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I think the real problem here is that 3.5k is NOT what the guides see.
If the guides actually saw the whole 3.5k, maybe this conversation could be slightly different, however, the guides see...50%? 1,500 bucks for 7 days of 24-ish hour work. Its more than I make per week, but I only fear stabbing, school shootings, or bed sores from sitting on my ass in front of a class...
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R.B.
climber
..
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John,
I can only reply with a short story about my own personal first experience on el Crap.
I hooked up with a newbee from asking around Camp Four. His name was Dan Nguyen, an astrophysicist major from Brandis (Sp?) Univ. in Mass.
The time was the spring of 1983, Dan had had just learned how to place the "newfangled" things called friends on the very trip he was there at the valley.
I had already done some of the warm ups walls and was ready to do the Capitan.
I hooked up with him, and we did the trad leap frog technique (swapping leads) He did fine ... except when he placed a #1 friend in the great roof pitch, right off the belay on Camp four, and he took a 10-footer onto my lap (and my "butt bag" caught him) ... I tied him off so fast and grabbed the spit out No. 1 and crammed it into the crack ... and told him "this is how you place a friend!"
He finished the lead, we summitted, it was epic the whole way ... but for both of us ... it was our first time up the stone ... and you ALWAYS remember your first time!
Go to the valley, you will find someone to hook up with to climb it ... just remember to always place really bomber peices in your belays ... and you should be OK.
It gets really hot in May-Sept ... so bring lots of water ... but you will be fine as long as you are solid on placing good gear and able to lead 5.10 and do A1.
(edit: and are solid on jumaring and hauling)
regards,
RB.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Walleye, a bargain is right ! It is one heck of allot of work. I'm leaning towards Werner's
fee structure,.
Doug
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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R.B.,
> His name was Dan Nguyen
Dan is one of my old climbing buddies! He still makes it out to California, but more for Jailhouse than El Cap these days.
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R.B.
climber
..
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Clint,
If you speak to Dan in the future, have him send me an email here.
That's cool you know him, I only knew him long enough to climb the Nose back in the '80's and I haven't seen or heard from him since.
RB
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dr. juicer kaniglio
Trad climber
san diego, ca
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though this thread is probably a joke, if your serious about being guided up el cap, youve comletely missed the point!!!
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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Show up in Camp 4 in May or late August. Say hi to the people at your picnic table in the mornings/evenings. You're gonna find a partner in a day or two.
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Bldrjac
Ice climber
Boulder
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$3500.oo isn't too much to charge for a guided ascent of the Nose. I would have thought $5000.oo would have been more like it. I've only ever heard great things about the YMS guides so it is likely you would have a great time up there and also have a very safe climbing partner.Once your guide realizes you have some skills and he/she isn't just dragging your tired bones up 30+ pitches most likely you will get the opportunity to do more than jug the route. I'm sure that you would get the chance to follow free some pitches. Undoubtly you will learn alot about wall climbing and be better prepared for your next ascent. Then again you might hate the experience and be glad you have the company of someone who is willing to do all the work.
Or you can take your chances and meet someone in C4 who you click with and do it with them. Heck, try to find a partner and then if that doesn't work walk into the YMS office and hand them a large cheque. The $3500.oo (not to mention the 20% tip you should give your guide) would be well spent. The Nose is THE classic El Cap route. Memories last forever. You can always earn more money. But you don't always have the opportunity to climb the Nose.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Some here seem to not understand that a guide is a bit more than someone who drags the
rope up a pitch ! Being a "world class climber" does not in anyway make a person a guide, any
more than a junky with a syringe a doctor.
Doug
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T2
climber
Cardiff by the sea
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That is a funny analogy Flanders, and very true.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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"The AMGA and others pander to these rules and regulations, if they would go after these monopolizer and break them up. Then perhaps a guide could make a real living and the playing field equaled. "
Is that right Coz? I've worked with the AMGA for quite some time now, and have not seen them "pander". What I have seen is a group that pursues a high level of professional development among its members, and works closely with the international guiding body, the IFMGA, adopting an internationally accepted standard for proficiency in the industry.
I've also seen "world class climbers", 13+ folks fail guide exams. That tells me that there is allot more to guiding that dragging the rope around
Doug
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Concession contract should go to restaurants and gift shops; never should they include the very walls of the valley, those are public lands own by the people of the United States.
Well worth repeating.
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NFB
Mountain climber
Wilson, Wyoming
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I guided El Cap with my good friend Calder Stratford. We guided Calder's Brother Trav and another friend Enoch. We did LIA and it was my first EC route. The R-rated free pitch was soooo cool.
See the TR here: http://www.supertopo.com/tr/PIXEL-PUSHER-GEEKS-SCALE-EL-CAP/t10589n.html
I am not employed by the monopoly. I was not paid to do it. What we did was completely legal. It was a huge pile of very rewarding work. I will never do it again.
Anyone (especially a mtn. guide) who works this hard (EC guiding) for so little money ($1500) should both be congratulated and reprimanded at once. I have the utmost respect for good mountain guides.
Coz said:
"...it is in your best interest to break up these guide monopolies, it is not fair business practice, it is not a free open market. Concession contract should go to restaurants and gift shops; never should they include the very walls of the valley, those are public lands own by the people of the United States."
The concession system in the national parks is one of the most un-American, communistic, anti-capitalistic programs that happens in this so-called "Free Market" society.
Just another example of how the Euros have the whole alpine thing so much more dialed. When will we adopt UIAGM? When will we learn to ski? When will we break up the concessions?(this may have to go hand in hand with UIAGM) When will we stop making fun of the french for doing EC routes with minimal gear? (I guess that one is finally catching on...we call it a push...)
Hmmmmmmmm?
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
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be patient and do the nose in good style on your own another time. forget the guide thing
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Anxious Melancholy
Mountain climber
Between the Depths of Despair & Heights of Folly
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if anyone's thinking of a solo of the big stone, but isn't quite sure about all the extra work, i'm volunteering to be your "silent partner". upside: i'll belay, jug and clean; downside: you'll have to haul extra water/etc.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Oh no, dude. YOU will haul the extra water ... and most everything else.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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No doubt AM, you want to ride the jugs but not help in the hauling?
Now you're trippin' hard!
Pass that dope around!
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Anxious Melancholy
Mountain climber
Between the Depths of Despair & Heights of Folly
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ah, cool, we've reached the negotiation stage already?! Excellent! What's the route?
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SPL Tech
climber
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Apr 17, 2010 - 08:19am PT
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You could just show up at Camp 4 and ask around.
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OR
Trad climber
VT
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Apr 17, 2010 - 10:27am PT
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Coz' points are correct and that is a whole other issue. To the OP: If you are a competent climber and want to lead pitches, learn to set up wall belays/anchors, do pendi's/lower out. all the tricks off a wall climber then put your time in , which includes hiring a guide for a day from time to time. You will not learn this on a guided trip up the nose. The guide is so focused on getting the client up and off they will not have time. If you want to fly to CA. climb el cap and fly home then YMS is the way to go. A wall noob should care less about leading/ hauling. I guarantee you will have the time of your life jugging every pitch. Lots of us here have been up EC enough to forget the feeling of seeing that thing and beeing 10 pitches up on your 1st route. I wanted to spend a week in my portaledge on my first wall just to take it all in. Jugging to your first bivi when the guide has all the sh#t organized and your ledge/bivi all set up...sounds sweet to me. Now imagine all the sh#t that could go wrong. Weather, injury, whatever. The list is too long to type as to why you want YMS when it goes bad. So really 3.5k is a bargain, worth every penny IMHO. Topping out on EC is so f-ing cool i cant describe it. Jug away and take shitloads of pics. Philth
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Bobby Boucher
Trad climber
Auburn, WA
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Apr 17, 2010 - 11:13am PT
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If you want to follow 5.11 on El Cap I suggest Doug Nediver who is most certainly "world class"
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Apr 17, 2010 - 11:33am PT
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Doug is da man! Plus, he has a belay from above. I've seen it.
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Logdog
Trad climber
Sierra Nevada
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Apr 17, 2010 - 12:04pm PT
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And as far as the AMGA pandering to the permit-monopoly, it is not entirely true. The AMGA was accepted into the international guiding body (IFMGA/UIAMG) on the condition that they actively pursue the breaking-up of the long standing concession system here in the states. They have formed the Certified Guides Federation (now certified guides cooperative) to address that issue directly. The main reason for this is that any american guide who is fully certified can fly to Cham. and guide Mont. Blanc or the Dru, no questions asked. The same cannot be said of a foreign certified guide (or an american guide not working for the concession) who wants to guide El Cap, or any other piece of rock. Most all guides will agree this system sucks, but it is up to the Forest and Park services to change the policy. The political power of these concessioners is quite large, and the AMGA is relatively small. They are trying, though...
-Logan
Call up Doug Nidever or Scott Stowe if you still want a guide for El Cap. As far as guiding big walls, they are truly "world class"
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Bobby Boucher
Trad climber
Auburn, WA
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Apr 17, 2010 - 12:27pm PT
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I thought that e was in the wrong place, Nidever. Best call you'll ever make.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Apr 17, 2010 - 12:34pm PT
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Pass The Piton Pete.
hell. he asks if anybody wants to climb for free,
i don't know if he allows 420 wall antics, but it's worth a try.
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Evel
Trad climber
Marijuana capital of the US
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Apr 17, 2010 - 02:26pm PT
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Werner sez only 7000.00 per day and you do all the work....
Werner,, Dude,,, Why are you low-balling me ?
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Apr 17, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
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Tork,
Get off the taco and get to work!
kev
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Fogarty
climber
BITD
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Apr 17, 2010 - 02:33pm PT
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Werner sez only 7000.00 per day and you do all the work....
(I’m Sure Werner made a mistake he meant $7,000.00 Per HOUR!)
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Apr 17, 2010 - 02:45pm PT
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Kev, no work today and my partner stood me up! Oh, sorry Kev, I mean my partner is wisely taking time off.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 20, 2010 - 01:20pm PT
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Weld-it has submitted the lowest bid. It's the US for gosh sakes!
You don't accept his bid, you become a socialist.
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Apr 21, 2010 - 11:08am PT
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Walleye sez "Hey Torque, you mind keeping this On Topic, please? I don't wanna hear about your romance, or lack thereof, with Chilly Wonka."
It rather cute to watch....and then Mony gets in the way of the Torky/Wonka thing. It's the strangest affair I've seen at YMS in 26 yrs. Second only to that guy chasing JoNan Whitford, wantng to buy her cars and houses. Walt said it right that the client wanted a little more out of that Big Wall Clinic from Jo than just dealing with pitons and hauling.
Doug
Bobby B, nice to see you making an appearance :)
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Apr 22, 2010 - 10:03am PT
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Doug
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TheNose
Big Wall climber
The Nose, TN
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You will sh#t your pants, its $4400 to get a guide from YMS now. What a rip. Lets resurrect this thread, I want to here more complaints about the cost.
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TheNose
Big Wall climber
The Nose, TN
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did the OP make it? did he pay 4400 for a guide?
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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$4400 seems like a good deal if you're not really a climber, just want the "bragging rights" in front of your non-climber friends, and you make tons of money in a job with little free time.
But for other folks.... $4400 could buy a year's worth of rice and beans and bandit camping and more than enough rack and gear for El Cap. And in that year you would get up tons of stuff aside from El Cap, and come away with a lot more skills and experience.
These are the leisure classes on either end of the spectrum. For the average working dudes/dudettes in commuter range, I suppose weekend trips to Nutcracker and points more obscure will have to do for the first few years. And for those in airfare range, there are tons of fun things to do a very memorable week without touching El Cap.
For folks who complain about how hard it is to earn a living guiding, how little it pays: nobody forced you into that career! You too could have sucked it up and stayed in school or dealt with cubicle life and did something not quite as fun for a living but had a bigger and more stable paycheck. We all make choices in life, and whining about the down side of our choices seems pretty weaksauce. Anyone who guides as a career knows the trade-offs and accepts them. Or they change careers. But I guess the public display of indignation is part of the ongoing paycheck negotiation for living on the edge of a dream.
All that said, I do like the idea of regulations in the guide service space. I don't like monopolies, but how else do you regulate whether guides are certified or not when corporate interests get involved trying to shave off expenses? I prefer monopoly over laissez-faire that increases traffic and reduces the safety of unaffiliated parties. There is room for cool guides on the down-low to do their thing in a sustainable way too. That seems as it should be.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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World Class Climber
I've seen and heard this phrase thrown around so much in the last 30 years I don't know what it means anymore. Must be one helluva big club. Billions and billions.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Guiding El Cap is a far cry from guiding any day of fun in the sun rock-climbing where you sleep in a bed at the end of the day.
The pain and responsibility never ends.
I always thought guides had the greatest deal to get to make money while climbing El Cap
it's actually easier and less stress to solo it, even if your partner ain't bad.
It seems to be the first thing I'm cutting out in my "too old for that Shit" pain reducing measures
Peace
Karl
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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It's pretty darn hard work. You end up leading and hauling 'most every pitch. The only way you can justify it is because there is simply no place you'd rather be.
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TheNose
Big Wall climber
The Nose, TN
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PTPP, I heard you like leading all the pitches???
and 4400 for a years worth of climbing and a full rack? sign me up! 4400 will get you a wall rack with ledge, bags, the works, but its not going to pay your bills for a full year, not even close, not even if your dirtbaging it. i think my medical insurance is half that cost just by itself.
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