| Messages 1 - 125 of total 125 in this topic |
slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - Mar 25, 2010 - 12:00am PT
|
I know, it's a touchy subject, so bear with me. My old college friend, a practicing psychiatrist, said recently that "there is evidence that climbers are more prone to suicide then general population". She, in fact, came up with a theory that "rock climbing and mountaineering is a channel for self-destructive behavior for highly driven people".
Once faced with a statement like that I countered that unless there is a JAMA article, it's a crock of sh#t. However, empirically I do feel that there might be some truth to that statement. A lot of smart, highly driven people push themselves pretty hard to do questionable, risky things. We all do it, in some shape or form - free solo really hard routes, red-point R-rated trad climbs, climb avalanche-prone mountains etc. Worst of all, the risk is meaningless - there is no reward for summiting Everest and no fat paycheck at the top of that 5.12 that you solo.
Do you think climbers are more suicide prone then general population? Are we really out there to kill ourselves?
|
|
flyingkiwi1
Trad climber
Seattle WA
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 12:09am PT
|
Climbers embrace edges. Mortal cuts, going over, falling off; all are part of the possible for those having such an affinity.
Ian
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 12:11am PT
|
I agree with your initial reaction - show me the real data.
People with depression are probably at highest risk for suicide.
From
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-us-statistics-and-prevention/index.shtml
Research shows that risk factors for suicide include:
 depression and other mental disorders, or a substance-abuse disorder (often in combination with other mental disorders). More than 90 percent of people who die by suicide have these risk factors.
prior suicide attempt
family history of mental disorder or substance abuse
family history of suicide
family violence, including physical or sexual abuse
firearms in the home, the method used in more than half of suicides
incarceration
exposure to the suicidal behavior of others, such as family members, peers, or media figures.
[Edit to add:]
Perhaps your friend was using informal language - instead of "suicidal", maybe she mean "daredevil". Climbers might seem (to an outsider) to embrace an unacceptably high level of risk. Actually, we usually act to control the risk, so we get the thrill without dying that often - like a professional stuntman.
|
|
Fletcher
Trad climber
Just me and three kids
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 12:18am PT
|
I agree with Clint, show me the data.
I would ask the psychiatric community this: it seems to me that suicide is an intentional thing. With most climbers, then, it would appear that the intent is subliminal if the thesis is correct. Why the advancements in gear, safety systems, endless analysis on rc.noob, and more appropriately analytical documents like ANAM? If we all wanna die, then why all the effort to prevent fatality?
Maybe there is such an affliction as subliminal intent to to take one's life? That seems pretty odd.
Eric
|
|
mountain dog
Trad climber
over the hills and far away
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 12:19am PT
|
From what I have observed, and felt personally I would not disagree. As a group we seem to have an aversion to a Higher Power, and are independent, and self reliant. This leads me to believe, when life gets hard, and we are in a weakened state, we have nothing of strength to rely on. So death might be more appealing than continued suffering.
|
|
mountain dog
Trad climber
over the hills and far away
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 12:23am PT
|
Fletcher, good hypothesis. But my guess regarding gear/protection is that climbers fear injury/suffering more than death.
|
|
slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2010 - 12:35am PT
|
Climbers embrace edges. Mortal cuts, going over, falling off; all are part of the possible for those having such an affinity.
No kidding. Question is - are we driven to the edge because we want to eventually fall off? Personally, if anything, the state of risk makes me feel more alive. On the other hand, I remember thinking "what have I got to lose?" when I was preparting to redpoint an R/X rated 5.12 in the Gunks (No Solution) some time ago. Suicidal tendency might be more of a subliminal thing, though.
There are plenty of people out there who climb as a form of physical conditioning. For them, safety is paramount. A lot of recreational climbers I know would only toprope. Many of them would not leave the padded safety of the gym. Here, however, we are talking about the "climbing community", people that view outdoor climbing as their lifestyle.
I would definitely would refute the gear hypothesis - look at the recent explosion of ultra-highball boulder problems, multi-pitch free solos and A4+ aid routes.
|
|
nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 01:55am PT
|
I disagree with the suicide thing as a blanket statement, but it might be safer to make a blanket statement like "there is more risk tolerance to get more out of life."
And maybe a propensity for OW climbers to grovel and suffer. Heck, even the abbreviation is an onomatopoeia! But can you really call it suffering if you enjoy it?
|
|
slayton
Trad climber
Here and There
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 02:25am PT
|
Give me a freaking break. Are formula one drivers more suicidal than the general public? Hang gliders? Moto Cross? Spelunkeres? Olympic luge participants? Base jumpers?
There are some that will seek out high adrenalin pursuits that put them on the cusp of life and death (most are with lots of safeguards to guarantee a continued life). Climbers, by and large, are out there doing what they (we) do not because of some death wish but because it makes them feel alive. And, by golly, it's just fun.
There's something to be said about these so called dangerous persuits. I think that it has more to do with the fact that in today's world the most dangerous thing we do is drive to work and not many of us think that's dangerous or feel the thrill of that danger. Some of us, who need it, seek it else where. Doesn't make it suicidal thought.
|
|
slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2010 - 02:47am PT
|
Are formula one drivers more suicidal than the general public? Hang gliders? Moto Cross? Spelunkeres? Olympic luge participants? Base jumpers?
Probably yes, implicitly. Suicide, generally speaking, is an extreme case of overriding the instinct of self preservation. Any sort of riding on the edge, be it climbing or base, is a less extreme case of the same override.
|
|
Ezra
Social climber
WA, NC, Idaho Falls
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 06:10am PT
|
I have thought about this not in terms of suicide, but more mental balance and the dark side of climbing.
Earl Wiggins comes to mind, He soloed scenic cruse in the black canyon at age 19 in some thing like 1.5 hours. 15 or so pitches in 1.5 hours (I'm sure some one will correct me).
Earl use to say (according to what I've read) he only really worried about soloing the first pitch and ending up injured. As you probably know Earl commited suicide in his own home several years ago. Was he attempting to kill himself years ago? Who knows, but he might have been.
Do climbers need to feel alive? Yes
Do we all want to die? NO
I have never been sucidial. That being said, the more my life has sucked in the past, the more I have been driven to climb hard stuff at the limit of my ability. Not because I wanted to die, but because climbing is so life affirming; for me at least.
-Ezra
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 06:24am PT
|
Suicide, generally speaking, is an extreme case of overriding the instinct of self preservation. Any sort of riding on the edge, be it climbing or base, is a less extreme case of the same override.
By this definition, any person, usually male, who ran forth in history with his spear to defend his group was suicidal? Were the men who stormed Omaha Beach and Iwo Jima suicidal? Any mother in history who risked her life to defend her young?
Of course no one would ever argue that because they see the direct cause and effect connection and because it was for others. In fact it is part of our evolutionary heritage.
What psychologists and the public can't understand are the people who still have those genes but no outlet for them in modern life except through the self expression of their sports.
|
|
Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 06:25am PT
|
i've written a suicide sonnatta here before.
i find my way down all kinds of thought paths.
for reasons of treason, to the status quo.
"A dramatic echo richochets down the steep canyon walls.
All life forms within experience this echo,
which resounds the report of the culmination of an inexhaustible dream.
To the author of the noise, the report sounds as but a whisper, entering thru one ear, and leaving thru the other.
Like a book, she closes her story in-line with it’s spine.
Hope, perched on the ridge of her existence: one leg dangles over the abyss of her ambitions and pleasures, the other leg over the slippery slope of her fears and depressions.
Simultaneously holding her hands triumphantly high in the air, and wielding a gun,
Spatters of her glorious existence temporarily take flight, like little angels, landing softly upon her defining smile.
Softly like the first snowflake upon a land."
|
|
Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 06:46am PT
|
a little risk helps one feel alive, and generally speaking risk is no longer a factor in most of our required daily lives. so we seek out recreational sources.
i imagine some people don't feel a need to hang out there, others do. this is no sign of mental illness. maybe their is a statistical correlation between risk takers and suicide, but i'm generally paranoid of statisticians.
|
|
BES1'st
climber
City of Orange, CA.
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 06:55am PT
|
I have been forced to do work as it was my chosen trade for decades.
Admittedly I did not sleep well some nights before, and the spouse did
not know why.
Upon failure it can be over, and I've had failures, and I am not suicidal,
nor do I condone it! The old saying "snooze you loose"?
|
|
mooch
Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 07:01am PT
|
Aaahh crap! I was thinking this thread had something to do with climbing. Off to see if locker is lurking on the ZZ Tops thread.
|
|
Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 07:19am PT
|
Slevin,
As with all psychologizing, your old college friend’s concept seems quite pat and easily swallowed by many. I have encountered this idea, by the way, off and on for decades--- it isn't that hard to cook up. People climb for quite a variety of reasons and most of these people’s efforts are not even dangerous at all. IN fact climbing may be safer than driving cars! For the few whose activities are in fact very deadly (as were mine certainly back in the day) again we have quite a variety of people performing the most drastic deeds and in quite a variety of ways.
I started climbing 47 years ago. Of the thousands of climbers I have known, I seem to only be able to count three or so actual suicides. (Hemmings, Dolt, Yablonsky, Wiggins) Hardly a run on suicides here, I would have to say. I really doubt there is much of a significant correlation to be found here. Rate of suicide for 1999 in the general population in the US is .01% (1.3% of total deaths are from suicide). There is of course the associated fact that suicide attempts may be as many 8-25 for every successful one.
Real suicide is very different than suicidal ideation---such thinking that occurs in everyone to some degree. The act of erasing oneself is in many respects the exact antithesis of high level climbing where you are doing all things possible to maintain and win. So in this respect a suicide theory could tempt one to assume it as the mechanism being toyed with (subliminally or overtly) in such other-worldly situations as maximum-danger climbing. That is to say, the individual contemplating a hard climb is also contemplating its adopted imagined opposite: that of an utter failure just as dramatic as total success would be---that the whole undertaking plays with a deck entirely made up of cards that say “die” or “live”, in this card game. But again, way too simplistic but surely there is always some truth as well.
So along with just about everyone here, I find the theory unfounded in fact probably and so generalized as to be useless and kind of corny but certainly a lot of fun.
|
|
slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 25, 2010 - 07:35am PT
|
Well, my reply was "show me the data".
My inner view was that we have a more reckless view on life with a bit of "what have I got to lose?" kind of mentality.
PS. Number of social misfits in adrenaline sports is higher too, at least so it seems.
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 07:41am PT
|
What a bunch of deniers.
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 07:48am PT
|
"rock climbing and mountaineering is a channel for self-destructive behavior for highly driven people"
Me? Highly driven? That's a joke.
Mountain Dog is onto something about climbers worrying more about injury than death. Injury is such a PITA, especially as you get older and healing and recovery gets longer and longer. I only got so many good summers left, I can't be wasting them wearing casts.
Is climbing really so adrenaline driven? I like being outdoors, going someplace different. And solving puzzles. A 5.4 crack where the moves are not obvious and you have to stop and consider your sequence and ponder what you're going to do once you get to that spot, is more interesting than an obvious 5.9 climb. Heading into the Sierra for a third class ridge climb with minimal beta is a real hoot, now that's fun.
|
|
Studly
Trad climber
WA
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 07:52am PT
|
Its all a crock. If climbers were suicide prone, they wouldn't ever use gear. Most climbers love life, and thats why they pursue climbing, the fabulous experience and the adrenalin. I think most psychiatrists/psychologists(wtfta) dream up sh#t like that simply to justify their own existence.
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 08:00am PT
|
I had this girlfriend that was in the 'psycho science' field always speculating stupid sh*t like that. However, I have another psycho science friend that would disagree with your friend (she used to climb BITD). These guys like to prompt you for your reactions; that's what they do. PWNED
ec
|
|
JoeSimo
Trad climber
New York
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 08:11am PT
|
I think like any sport of subject it depends completely on the people involved. I'm sure we can all point to people who climb for perfectly sound reasons and others that do so because they lose the adrenaline high. I know from my own personal experience I climb for love of the outdoors, the physical and mental challenge, the connection to nature and the joy of spending the day with good friends. Even as I now push trad climbing into the 11's and 12's in the Gunks, I do so with nothing but safety in mind. I don't want to be on a run out lead with the adrenaline flowing. I want to be in the moment, calm and inspired by the rock and route I am on.
However, I also know people that climb for reasons I don't get. Most it seems like ego. If I climb a 5.11 they HAVE to do the same route and will hangdog on it for an hour if need be to finish it. The same people also usually seem less concerned about safety than sending the route. The logic of "is taking 20 falls here and scraping myself up worth it?" takes a back seat to simply getting to the top. After they are lowered down I doubt anyone of them could clearly explain why it was so important to get to the top. Most would probably give a nebulous response of "because I wanted to get to the top." Ironically, had they just come down beforehand they could have climbed 2-3 other routes in the same period of time.
Like someone said already climber are not inherently suicidal, it's the individuals climbing that may or may not be.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 08:25am PT
|
Worst of all, the risk is meaningless - there is no reward for summiting Everest and no fat paycheck at the top of that 5.12 that you solo.
I've not been atop Everest so I'll leave that one alone, but I have never earned a paycheck which meant as much to me as topping out on certain climbs. The reward is worth the risk, and sometimes driven by and amplified by it.
|
|
weschrist
Gym climber
left sac
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 08:28am PT
|
""there is evidence that climbers are more prone to suicide then general population"
I tend to disagree with shrinks who don't know the difference between then and than.
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 08:32am PT
|
but I have never earned a paycheck which meant as much to me as topping out on certain climbs.
Kris just hit paydirt here.
So to speak.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 08:40am PT
|
I don't believe people get into climbing due to a subliminal thought of suicide. HOWEVER! It would be interesting to see if athletes in general have more suicides, and what athletics they do.
I've seen, in myself, that much like runners high, when I do a long climb or climbing trip, I'll be way up. A few days after, I feel like I'm in a slump and am depressed. Unlike a runner, who will just go out when the weather is total sh#t, we can't do that, and thus endure the depression of not exercising and getting the good endorphins.
|
|
tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 08:40am PT
|
I would think that the drive to climb and the drive to suicide are the exact opposite.
Climbing is feels good because you have power over your life for a change. You do live on your own personal terms on climb. Your success/failure is your own.
Suicide comes from feeling powerless. You feel like crap for so long and can't seem to find your own way out of it.
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 08:44am PT
|
So...us climbers would rather spend all the time, money, effort, tie into a rope, place anchors to avoid falling to our death/injury because we're suicidal. If we are (in general), what your friend is sayin' is we're f*cking stupid because there's faster, cheaper and easier methods to kill one's self. Tell your friend to stop masturbating with their diploma.
ec
|
|
Studly
Trad climber
WA
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 08:49am PT
|
Couchmaster, I've seen some of that stuff you climb on. You defintely have suididal tendencies or are somewhat looney. or both, ha!
and you called my Gorge crag choss......wtf,just not right! ;)
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 08:50am PT
|
Unlike a runner, who will just go out when the weather is total sh#t, we can't do that, and thus endure the depression of not exercising and getting the good endorphins.
You need to read "Mountaineering in Scotland" by William F Murray...
"It's a fine day for a climb!!"
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 08:54am PT
|
All the responses in to this subject matter are in the area of ....
"I believe"
"I think"
"Maybe this maybe that"
The original came from this: "She, in fact, came up with a theory ..."
This is all just pure mental speculation and guessing.
What a waste of time ........
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 09:03am PT
|
ST is the way I enjoy wasting time, but I never said the things you said I said Werner...
ec LOL
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 09:09am PT
|
You're right ec I should have said most of the responses.
I'm now going to commit hairy kary ......
|
|
bluNgoldhornet6
Big Wall climber
Tampa, Fl
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 09:16am PT
|
An intresting thing i have noticed is how this community seems to have a common psychological disorder, mostly Depression. Look at JDF's post about him trying to kick antidepressants and see how many responses he had. Not to many who re-posted on that thread, but many people with similar condition.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 09:37am PT
|
Hairy Kari
That sounds messy.
|
|
Tami
Social climber
Canada
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 09:37am PT
|
If you were to talk about "climbers" killing themselves, wouldn't you first have to describe what a climber is ?
Is it someone who has roped up once in their lifetime ? Is it LEB who associates with climbers ? Or is it Werner down there in the Valley committing hairy whatever ?
Add another climber - William Nealy ( more of a kayaker tho' he did rope up a few times ......... ) who topped himself.
I agree w/ Peter Haan and add that there is not enough description of what a climber is to make a correlation and, furthermore, probably not enough "climbers" to make a statistical analysis.
I also agree with the above post about DEPRESSION - seems to be a lotta folks -"climbers" - on ST who suffer that horror........
|
|
nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 09:49am PT
|
What percentage of adult Americans have a prescription for anti-depressants. It would be interesting to compare that with the percentage of supertopians. My null hypothesis would be that they are similar percentages. As climbers, maybe a lower percentage because of physical activity and passion about something in life. But as forum readers and participants, perhaps sharing less of themselves with live people day-to-day. I'm not sure there is an inverse correlation of online/offline social contact any more though.
One thing I thought about that might bridge the gap between "death wish" and "risk tolerant to live life more fully": when we are making the risk/reward calculation involved in climbing, we assess these things subconsciously:
what do we have to lose by doing it
what is the opportunity cost of not doing it
what do we have to gain
what is the probability of failure
We might lower the perceived cost of a loss ("what do we have to lose") at the moments when we are more stressed in life, depressed, etc. At these times, we may also crave an anchor for meaning in life, crave beauty and peace and exhilaration and such good things to lift us from whatever ails us. This would cause the perceived benefit for the same activity to go up. I guess our moods can also affect our perception of success rate... some days it all flows so easily, and some days are high gravity.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 09:51am PT
|
I know, it's a touchy subject, so bear with me. My old college friend, a practicing psychiatrist, said recently that "there is evidence that climbers are more prone to suicide then general population". She, in fact, came up with a theory that "rock climbing and mountaineering is a channel for self-destructive behavior for highly driven people".
Once faced with a statement like that I countered that unless there is a JAMA article, it's a crock of sh#t. However, empirically I do feel that there might be some truth to that statement. A lot of smart, highly driven people push themselves pretty hard to do questionable, risky things. We all do it, in some shape or form - free solo really hard routes, red-point R-rated trad climbs, climb avalanche-prone mountains etc. Worst of all, the risk is meaningless - there is no reward for summiting Everest and no fat paycheck at the top of that 5.12 that you solo.
Do you think climbers are more suicide prone then general population? Are we really out there to kill ourselves?
First of all, life is dangerous. No one gets out alive. Should we all just hide out in our closets scared of living because something might accidently happen, and heaven forbide we die? Of course not. What kind of life is that?
Also that doesn't mean we should put a loaded gun up to our head and pull the trigger.
Somewhere between the two extremes is really where most of us live our lives. It is a matter of degrees.
Another way of thinking about it is the fact all of us drive cars. Even granny who is often scared of her own shadow. So let me get this. You mean to tell me we all participate in an activity where we are driving down the road going 60mph just a mere few feet away from another driver who may or may not be paying attention going 60mph in the opposite way. Our combined speeds are 120mph. Man we must all be adrenalin junkies. Even granny who is scared of her own shadow yet continues to drive must be nuts. She must be suicidal. Wow, we are all suicidal and nuts.
No, I don't think so. We understand there is risk in living life. Some people accept more risk, and some people accept less. But make no mistake we are all risk, and adrenalin junkies. We all drive. Even scared to death granny drives (and she is probably one of the most dangerous out there on the road).
To say there are no rewards for risk sports and adventure I would completely dissagree with that statement. We are rewarded in very, very personal ways. We are rewarded spiritually (can't be measured except by the individual alone), and also with bio-chemical cycles. Perhaps many of us really are adrenalin and endorphine junkies. Nature's natural drugs. Hey, we produce it, and some of us crave it more than others and are rewarded when it is released.
I would like to think I'm more rewarded by the spiritual aspects of risks and adventure. I can't help but think GOD enjoys watching his creation, and enjoys seeing man-kind push the envelope physically, intellectually, and even in terms of risk and adventure, and do things that seem miraculous and on a higher plane of excellence and existance. I think it makes GOD smile when we pull it off successfully. Can I prove this? No. But, it is what I think. It is my hypothesis.
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 09:52am PT
|
Werner:
I'm now going to commit hairy kary ......
Don't take it so serious, Werner. It's only make believe.
|
|
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 09:55am PT
|
'Under the wide and starry sky,
Dig the grave and let me lie.
Glad did I live and gladly die,
And I laid me down with a will.
This be the verse you grave for me:
Here he lies where he longed to be;
Home is the sailor, home from sea,
And the hunter home from the hill.'
Robert Louis Stevenson.
I wish he had composed more of this, it is the strongest expression of life I can think of. He wrote it as his own epitaph, thinking he was close to his end. He survived, his poem was premature, but with time, it eventually became useful.
Of course, I think you all are missing the point. We must come to embrace death, and so many have. And in failing to understand this has lead many to false conclusions. What the issue here is really, when we approach the thought of suicide, are we more likely to achieve the goal because we are climbers, or do we run and hide it from our minds, failing or refusing to commit the act, because we are climbers?
Climbing is an act of extreme volition. As we practice it, it has nothing to do with nature. A monkey may climb a cliff to put himself above the risks of lion, but he does not climb for a thousand feet beyond what is necessary to achieve his objective, safety. He reaches the goal of being beyond the reach of fang and claw, and then he stops and rests. Tomorrow, he does not gratuitously reach for the top, unless that is the only way off. He comes down the easiest way possible, and prepares to go about his business again, the only business he knows, survival.
As an act of volition we harden ourselves to the possibilities of failure.
Through climbing we learn to demand of ourselves the focus and determination that places us at the center of our volition, that ability to do what scares us, or that which obstructs and denies our will, to overcome challenges and obstacles. This carries over into our lives, like being a soldier in a war zone, eventually we train ourselves to do what we demand of ourselves, irrespective of what the risks and obstacles are.
When we feel that it is no longer worth our attention, our continuing struggle, we face the choice to end the game. And when we decide it is to end, the game ready to be won, we act with the sharpened courage and volition that we have created within ourselves, and refusing to let the obstacles deter us, we face and overcome that fear of death, the desire of the naked body to run when threatened, the ability we have to chicken out and survive, and we place a willing and intentional end to what we no longer desire, instinctual continuance. That is what we learn from climbing. The beauty and courage of our sport.
Because we have learned to do that which we fear, we are able to be perhaps more successful than many who consider the volitional way out. We face the goal, and we exercise our willfulness, trained through years, and we place a period to our story. We achieve the goal we have set for ourselves.
Suicide can be a proud achievement, were we available to boast of it, I think many would. We faced our opponent, we willfully determined to conquer it, and we manfully take that action we determined we needed/wanted to perform. I imagine it a difficult task, and how we chose to face it says more than the act itself. Its not DO we commit suicide, its HOW that is important. That we face our end, or demand it? A trigger, a leap, a foul tasting food? Perhaps a train, a car, or just not pull the chute or throw the drogue.
Far better than a lingering end on white sheets, destroying your families lives and emotions as you destroy their savings and their assets, is a volitional end. Even better if you can achieve something with your intention, saving a compatriot on the battlefield or inspiring others through your example.
Triumph over yourself. Don't die the death of an animal. Be a MAN!
Lay yourself down with a will!
'Under the wide and starry sky,
Dig the grave and let me lie.
Glad did I live and gladly die,
And I laid me down with a will.
This be the verse you grave for me:
Here he lies where he longed to be;
Home is the sailor, home from sea,
And the hunter home from the hill.'
Robert Louis Stevenson.
|
|
nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 10:02am PT
|
In support of my preceding thoughts... here's a link to the trip report for my stupidest adventure ever:
http://supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=531572
This happened at an emotional low-point in my life, in the final months of a decade of difficult marriage. I was NOT suicidal, but my circumstances affected my judgment of the variables in the risk/reward calculation. I had a great need for something positive in my life, I was less aware of what I had to lose, and I was assembling the pieces of my life to begin anew.
|
|
EdBannister
Mountain climber
CA
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 10:04am PT
|
Here we go with the literacy thing again, sorry, forgive me, but... it's harakiri, not the descrption of your last girlfriend in camp 4, or an old baseball announcer.
anyway,
I climbed some with Rob Slater shortly before he went to K2.
He intended to die there.
and, the image of Tobin doing the green Arch, with the cord tied in a hangman's noose around his neck does come to mind... how do you belay that?
or not say it was suicidal?
on the other hand, there is just bold, strong, and confident...
I don't think that is suicidal at all.
If you haven't backed off stuff when conditions were not right,
then you either haven't been out there much, or...
|
|
Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 10:05am PT
|
They may be suicide prone...but not really through the act of climbing. All the climber suicides I know of or have heard of did NOT have climbing as the method.
|
|
cowpoke
climber
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 10:30am PT
|
I know of no empirical data consistent with the psychiatrist's hypothesis, mentioned in the OP. Moreover, I would argue that most theory and closely-related work are inconsistent with the hypothesis.
Some social-personality and clinical psychologists have suggested that sensation seeking is a trait-like personality characteristic; in turn, it is argued that people drawn to new experiences and high-sensation experiences are more likely than others to engage in risky behavior (e.g., climbing, drug use, etc.). Work such as the following fits in this literature: Serotonin transporter polymorphisms and measures of impulsivity, aggression, and sensation seeking among African-American cocaine-dependent individualsPsychiatry Research, 2002, 110, pg:103.
As far as I know, however, most studies indicate that sensation seeking is negatively correlated with depression (or unrelated), the most common precursor to suicide.
The only hypothetical links I can generate are contrived. For example, sensation-seeking climbers may be at heightened risk for drug use and, in turn, at heightened risk for depression.
This forum might provide anecdotal evidence consistent with the first link in that chain. The link between drug use and depression, however, is often due to the increased likelihood of using drugs due to being depressed, rather than the reverse.
In short, I'm skeptical.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 10:38am PT
|
Suicide, generally speaking, is an extreme case of overriding the instinct of self preservation. Any sort of riding on the edge, be it climbing or base, is a less extreme case of the same override.
I disagree with this statement.
Suicide is an attempt to escape a nightmare.
Actually accomplishing it is not exactly easy. The reason climbers accomplish it more often then say accountants, is because we have learned to deal with fear. I think any appearance that climbers are more suicidal then other groups could be attributed to the likelyhood that they would be more successful at an attempt because they have the physical courage to chose a more lethal method, and this success rate would then make them more noticeable. This would be true of any sport that requires physical courage. Base jumbers, race car drivers, ect..
I have been suicidal from childhood. I think that it is a combination of physical problems such as poor brain chemistry, and spiritual problems. I fully understand that some don't believe in spirit, so I have no answer for you. Your only hope is to find the right combination of pills, exercise, diet and lifestyle that will keep your brain chemicals in some sort of manageable balance. That can be quite a challenge. Those who have never dealt with long term chronic depression have no idea. Most folks have dealth with situational depression and try to liken it to that. Their dog died and they became depressed. They went out and climbed a bunch and got a new dog and now they are not depressed. So they think that it is fairly easy to overcome depression. Long term chronic depression is a whole nother ball of wax and is not so easily overcome.
|
|
LDunn
Trad climber
Idyllwild, CA
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 12:27pm PT
|
Most Defiantly Suicide prone Suicide rock that is Sun dance btw
|
|
Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
|
a buddy of mine made mention of similar thoughts long ago in passing...
then I looked into it...
you can find eveidence that climbers that actually commmited suicide were self destructive before the fateful act..
but there is the overwhelming evidence that the majority of climbers are no "prone" to self destruct (suicide) just by the fact that they love or feel the need to climb.
The same arguement might be made about people that smoke cigarettes, or use addictive drugs (not that climbing is an addictive drug, but something tells me that once one has accomplished a climbing goal, the tendancy is to move on to the next goal.. once a person runs out of possible goals.. who knows what happens?)
So, I don't subscribe to this line of thinking that just because I climb I am more inclined to get rid of me at some point in the future....
Not to mention.. what does this claim say about those who climb to feel as though they are empowering themselves through these actions (pushing themselves to a goal, falling, etc., etc.)
the arguement no hold water (IMO)
|
|
couchmaster
climber
pdx
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 12:47pm PT
|
Studly said: Couchmaster, I've seen some of that stuff you climb on. You definitely have suicidal tendencies or are somewhat looney. or both, ha!
and you called my Gorge crag choss......wtf,just not right! ;)
LOL! Must be both!
|
|
tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 01:06pm PT
|
Climbers are considered suicidal.
Obese folks sitting on the couch with a bucket of ice cream watching reality TV are not.
|
|
tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 01:11pm PT
|
Some are some aren't- just like non-climbers
|
|
ec
climber
ca
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 01:21pm PT
|
more than likely, climbing probably saved more individuals lives vs suicide...
'just saying...
ec
|
|
gonzo chemist
climber
a crucible
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 02:26pm PT
|
I guess this kind of mirrors what KSolem wrote,
Great risk can bring great reward.
I might not find a fat monetary reward at the top of each climb I complete, but I frequently find something so much more fulfilling...
I am wealthy because of my experiences, not my bank account...
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 02:38pm PT
|
Werner climbs?
|
|
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
|
Werner? I don't think so.
I seen him a LOT hanging out in the parking lots, and the stores, and bars, and cafes and all kinds of places he never knew I was. Dozens of times. But only once did I ever see him hanging around the rocks, and then he was just walking around in them. I never saw him climb, I don't think, in all those years.
So given 30 years of surveillance, I'd say he is a complete earthling, a poseur, a ground-dwelling fake.
You can't beat NEVER having seen someone climb, its a dead giveaway. Stats don't lie.
Mostly he just stands around and talks too loud.
All the pics are Photoshop jobs.
|
|
Silver
Big Wall climber
Nor Nev
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 02:59pm PT
|
Werner is not climbing he has left to commit Hairy Kari. I suspect that after reading this BS he identified the suicidial tendencies in her and took her to the hospital. I think!
This is a national enquirer quality OP.
EC said it best.
These mind benders have to come up with some sort of crap to think about, and then write a grant to study the possibility that there bs is either bs or bs. Jacking off with their degree's. Well put.
We climb because we love it, and we die because we die. Hows that that for some PHD Psych. Crap!
|
|
Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 04:58pm PT
|
within sorrow hides hope.
and this hope, though untruthful, embodies inspiration.
as seekers, we must allow sorrow its rightful passage between our smiles.
then, and only then, do we discover the righteous explosion of of magic and wonder,
whose outcome is glorius.
|
|
Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
|
|
|
Mar 25, 2010 - 05:57pm PT
|
I am really having problems. If the moment is about to happen who should I call?
Juan
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 03:12am PT
|
hey there say, all....
as to suicide prone...
suicide is a choice that comes into play, when a key issue in one's
life has finally become unbearabale, so much so, to the point that all hope is gone, for ever overcoming, or even fathoming to do so, as to said-issue...
it can sneak up on one, after lengthy issues, or, it can hit suddenly, after a sudden heavy blow...
this can happen to anyone, anywhere, at any point in life, no matter what one's life style is, climber or not...
home-body, adventurer, child, older folks, etc...
keep an eye and ear open to your loved ones...
god bless...
|
|
Anastasia
Mountain climber
hanging from a crimp and crying for my mama.
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 03:27am PT
|
First explain to me what is normal behavior... I need to figure this out first before I can attempt working on your question.
|
|
cowpoke
climber
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 07:55am PT
|
Juan,
There are suicide hotlines online and crisis center in almost every metro area that do not require insurance. If your post is not a troll, I strongly suggest you do not wait for "the moment." Start seeking help right now.
A good place to start.
Peace,
Eric
|
|
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 08:55am PT
|
I am glad to see that somebody is answering his post. I just saw it and was surprised. JDF you would seem to have a good deal going. Things may not have been especially smooth in the last few weeks, but you haven't suffered really all that much yet. Take the pain a little longer, it should begin to abate pretty soon.
At least, that is what I am telling myself.
Change is the only constant. When things are good, they are likely to get worse. The good news is, the opposite is also true.
If it gets very much worse, call me, I can help you find the bullets. But first you will have to convince me that the time is now. And I can be hard to convince. Have it all thought out before you call me so the long distance bills aren't too high. Like a math proof, you have to have an airtight case.
|
|
Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 09:10am PT
|
The approach to Suicide is certainly shorter than the approach to Tahquitz.
You can add Raleigh Collins to the successful suicide list.
Some people with abnormal brain chemistry may be drawn to climbing as a means of self medication, but it hardly means that climbers are suicidal. Even if the proportion of suicides who are climbers is greater than that of the total population who are climbers, it hardly establishes causality. Reminds me of a joke (we could use a joke, right?)
One day after sleeping badly, an anatomist went to his frog laboratory and removed from a cage one frog with white spots on its back. He placed it on a table and drew a line just in front of the frog. "Jump frog, jump!" he shouted. The little critter jumped two feet forward. In his lab book, the anatomist scribbled, "Frog with four legs jumps two feet."
Then, he surgically removed one leg of the frog and repeated the experiment. "Jump frog, jump!" To which, the frog leaped forward 1.5 feet. He wrote down, "Frog with three legs jumps 1.5 feet."
Next, he removed a second leg. "Jump frog, jump!" The frog managed to jump a foot. He scribbled in his lab book, "Frog with two legs jumps one foot."
Not stopping there, the anatomist removed yet another leg. "Jump frog, jump!" The poor frog somehow managed to move 0.5 feet forward. The scientist wrote, "Frog with one leg jumps 0.5 feet."
Finally, he eliminated the last leg. "Jump frog, jump!" he shouted, encouraging forward progress for the frog. But despite all its efforts, the frog could not budge. "Jump frog, jump!" he cried again. It was no use; the frog would not response. The anatomist thought for a while and then wrote in his lab book, "Frog with no legs is deaf."
|
|
Pate
Trad climber
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 12:25pm PT
|
Climbers aren't any more suicidal than the rest of the population. If they were, we'd never come back from our exploits.
|
|
nevahpopsoff
Boulder climber
the woods
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 02:30pm PT
|
This subject fasinates me,I have recently been involved in the euthenisa of my cat, I held her and felt her pulse stop, a dog, and my Dad's horse. Humans don't really have this option, a workmate's Dad is as good as dead from cancer of the entire body, yet he has to stick it out to the miserable end. I think about Ernest Hemmingwy, Hunter Thompson, Guy Waterman, go out on your own terms. Just don't blow your head off with a shotgun while you have guests in the house, makes you a bad host.
I climb because it's FUN, I climb harder, more risky stuff, when I'm bummed, because the focus distracts me from what's bothering me.
And I listen to people bitch all the time, and wonder why they even want to live if they are so miserable.
|
|
EdBannister
Mountain climber
CA
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 03:02pm PT
|
104 shows himself , again. to be a really excellent human,
I'm in too Juan,
anytime, just shoot me an email, ill send my phone number,
Ed
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 03:24pm PT
|
I just saw Juan's post now.
Suicide is a very real and a very grave topic. It is a serious problem that people use to scream out for help. Sometimes we don't hear it or see it in time.
Suicide is a very touchy subject in my extended family. There is suicide in my families past. I take it very, very seriously. Some people for whatever reason reach such a state and low of despair they can not think or feel their way out of it. At that moment they need help. They are not in their right mind. They needed help long before then, didn't know how to ask, and maybe none of us listened?
Juan, don't do it. Seek help from a friend or family member. Perhaps you know someone here at ST that you feel comfortable talking to. Please do. If you want to talk with me please do. Suicide is very personal with me.
Personally, I know what suicide does to those who are left behind -- the family and close friends. You can not believe how bad it hurts those you leave behind. I do not think anyone wants to really hurt their family and friends, it is just that they can not see past the pain of the moment, the depression. Please seek help immediately.
I know how bad it hurts those you would leave behind. For me, no matter what, suicide is never an option. No matter how bad it gets, I would never do that to myself, my family, or my friends. I do not blame my mother. She was hurting beyond belief. If she was in her right mind, if she knew the pain that she caused by leaving us I know in my heart of hearts she wouldn't have taken her life and left me and my sister. I miss my mother everyday.
Do not do it. You don't want to hurt the ones you love. Talk to them. Everyone hurts and everyone goes through depression at sometime, some go through more than others.
GET HELP.
Glenn
(aka "Klimmer")
|
|
JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
|
I have thought about suicide over and over the years and years. I remember thinking about it since I was like 15. So in 35 years I am still here. So not to worry. The problem is that sometimes I just am not thinking straight and really worry I might do something in the heat of the moment. I got rid of all my guns years ago for this very reason. I plan never to own a gun again.
Since I stopped the Zyprexa my life has been hell. I have lost the ability to sleep and am in a constant state of anxiety. It is nearly impossible to drag myself out of bed and go to work, and when I am at work I am functioning at about 25 percent.
I keep telling myself just to relax and take one day at a time.
Things will get better.
I wish I could still climb like I used to, I found that spending the day free soloing at Taqhuitz would clear away all my depression in my 20's.
Climbing twenty pitches in a day would clear out all my blues for days.
Juan
|
|
JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
|
I have thought about suicide over and over the years and years. I remember thinking about it since I was like 15. So in 35 years I am still here. So not to worry. The problem is that sometimes I just am not thinking straight and really worry I might do something in the heat of the moment. I got rid of all my guns years ago for this very reason. I plan never to own a gun again.
Since I stopped the Zyprexa my life has been hell. I have lost the ability to sleep and am in a constant state of anxiety. It is nearly impossible to drag myself out of bed and go to work, and when I am at work I am functioning at about 25 percent.
I keep telling myself just to relax and take one day at a time.
Things will get better.
I wish I could still climb like I used to, I found that spending the day free soloing at Taqhuitz would clear away all my depression in my 20's.
Climbing twenty pitches in a day would clear out all my blues for days.
Juan
|
|
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 05:41pm PT
|
I'll make you a deal Juan.
I'll do 75% of your work, for half your pay.
I need a job, and I sense that we could be a good team. I climb and can show you some other ways to avoid the bummer.
I got to have a week or so off a month ...
And a couple of the co-eds
|
|
Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 07:57pm PT
|
My detailed plan I had two years ago was to jump off the summitt boulder at Stoney.
My second was hanging.
My third was standing in front of the Metrorail just down from the backwall
Only once was I psyched up to do it. At that point I called my therapist at 2 in the Morning. She put things back into perspective.
But what if I had a gun. If you know someone that even mentions suicide the first thing is to find out if they have a gun and get it.
I am also convinced that if most people have time to just chill and think it out. Put it off for 24 hours their odds go up drastically.
Working on a college campus is quite easy to spot the body language of the students siting in the hall. If one looks depressed I now make it my point to go over and talk with them. Let them know that the stresss of college are extreme these days to say the leasy. This student was taking a lab class I wrote the manual for. It was a simple matter to get the correct answers and explain what was going on. The student lighted up knowing two weeks work had been explained and finished. On this Earth we all really need to learn to live for our brother human beings. College Classes have to have a team effort to make sure everyone understands the material.
After seeing what I went through I really want to give something back - I plan to start a depresion support group for the students.
JDF
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 08:26pm PT
|
That's good stuff Juan.
Translate your own pain, empathize, extend that compassion to others.
You have really got something there.
Roy
|
|
Jim Brennan
Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
|
|
|
Mar 26, 2010 - 08:31pm PT
|
If climbers were truly suicidal,there would be no government issue concerning fixed anchors on public lands.
|
|
Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2010 - 03:36am PT
|
[img]http://www.topnews.in/health/files/depressed.jpg[/[img]
|
|
Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2010 - 03:38am PT
|
I see this look on students all the time. A Lone wolf with the weight of the world on their shoulders.
|
|
Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2010 - 03:49am PT
|
The vey classsic body language
|
|
Tobia
Social climber
GA
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2010 - 06:59am PT
|
Suicide and climbing?
Should I respond? I know a little about both.
I once lived in Yosemite. I got interested in climbing, but the heights freaked me out. I have been fascinated with the activity for a long time since those days. I loved the rush, the endorphins, the connection to the granite and nature, etc.
I have always wanted to do it again and would love to do a big wall, just hang out on El Cap at least once in my life. I still want to do it but have a few problems holding me back. After I read the TR from the guy in NY who had a lot less climbing experience than I do, I figured it just might be possible. I have a few physical health problems that I would have to overcome first.
Suicide: an action that I have considered seriously since I was old enough to know what the word means. I can almost remember thinking "there's a way out of this mess".
I always came up with a reason not to, my mother and father, my beloved dog, the fact that someone would have to clean up the mess....
Most of those "stoppers" are gone. I have brothers and sisters, some close friends, a lot of school children that it would hurt that make me resist.
My life is one big pain and I would love for it to end. Brain chemistry is a department I got shorted in. Doctors, medications don't help... I spent 30 years doing that. Running, swimming, biking and physically working myself to exhaustion always helped but that has been taken from me.
So I don't want to do the suicide thing for the above reasons; but I look forward to death and pray for it continously. I would gladly switch places with someone who has a terminal illness, they could have my time left on the clock. Anything to alleivate the pain in my brain.
Back to climbing. I never once considered that as a way out and don't think there is any kind of link between suicide and climbers that is significant, relevant or worth researching. People climb because they enjoy the challenge and all the other reasons that have been expressed with more clarity than I can muster. Bottom line as I see it: People who are suicidal are in every walk of life and their reasons are as varied as the number of colors in the light spectrum.
I am going to post this, but I reserve the right to delete it. I am not sure if I qualify to speak or I might read this and it will seem so pathetic that I have to "erase". More than likely it would be too embarrassing.
Right now my brain is screaming for some relieve and writing about it helps me understand what my thoughts are. I guess to some degree it helps to alleviate some of the pain and hopelessness I feel. I don't normally feel the freedom to let these thoughts get too far away from home.
|
|
Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2010 - 08:17am PT
|
Athens crumbled.
no stouter backbone of a culture ever stood.
|
|
Rokjox
Trad climber
Boys I'dunno
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2010 - 09:49am PT
|
Sh#t Tobia, sounds like its time for a new dog.
A big one. Head down to the pound and pick one up. Screw the landlord. Does wonders for me.
I also find it helps to pick out someone who deserves some sh#t in their life, and give it to them. A little constructive Evil can do wonders for your morale. And if you aren't getting out to climb enough, buy a bike. A few good bike crashes can take your mind off a lot of crap.
Some of those meds are pretty cheap. Wouldn't you feel dumb if it turned out all you needed was a $7.00 prescription for something as simple as lithium or something? Think of them as vitamins. And tell your doc you want to try all the cheap ones first. An extra $50 or $100 bucks a month can be the difference between a couple good trips each month, or a bag of low dollar swag.
And always remember, if your doc doesn't seem to have the answer, about 70% of the ones who got their license's were C students. Find a better one. A lot of those guys just have their hands in your pants, and they aren't reaching for your pistol.
|
|
Bruce Kay
Gym climber
BC
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2010 - 10:46am PT
|
What an interesting premise!
Maybe because we know how good life can get, yet how easy to lose or keep ahold of?
|
|
nita
Social climber
chica from chico, I don't claim to be a daisy
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2010 - 11:31am PT
|
Tobia, Since you are someone i know and care about.. your post saddens me greatly. Wish i could say or do something to ease your pain.
Remember, This too shall pass..
Hold on and hold out for better days..
xoxxx
nita
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ6FcotLafM
|
|
Tobia
Social climber
GA
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2010 - 12:27pm PT
|
Rockjox: Thanks for the message!
Nita: Thanks for the vibes and the song!
I have two dogs now, the one I mentioned was one I had for 17 years. I love them like children and when I spiral downward they are a blessing.
I appreciate the advice on the meds; I was under the care of the docs for 30 years and have been through them all and practically any combination of them. They just don't work on me. The last one I was one was the MAOI inhibitors, transmitted with a patch; kind of a psych's last resort. The side effects were too hard, the risk factor too high and positive results were nill. The next move was to experiment with meds from other countries and buying over the internet. I elected not to do that as they utilized the same chemical mechanics as other meds.
As noted earlier aerobic exercise and physical work was the best preventive I have ever had; but I have a chronic injury to my lower back and that has altered my lifestyle greatly.
My depression comes in waves, no rhyme or reason; unpredictable as the the next thread to be started. I have managed this long; and I guess I will manage a while longer. As I said I kind of eliminated suicide from the options; but would go willingly.
I discovered faith a year or so ago and I depend on that; which makes the whole ordeal a little easier.
I didn't intend to make such a "me" post but couldn't figure out how to validate my opinion without a little background. A recurring response to people's tragic taking of their own lives is how much it hurts those left behind. I thought perhaps I could provide a little insight on that line of thinking. I have to believe that people who "off" themselves did not do so without considering their friends, children and loved ones; at least I hope not. My conjecture is that it is no easy choice; but it may be the only viable relief. I can't speak for anyone but me; I can take a lot of pain and have a high threshold for it but depression is one relentless, cruel beast. It is hard to fight something you can't see.
I have told more than one shrink that I would give anything for someone else to hear the noise I listen to in my head. It comes in many forms, distorted noise, my own thoughts, my perception of people's perception of me, negative vibes... I am not sure how many forms. I try to adjust the volume or find the on/off switch but it doesn't exist.
The abyss is deep and when there doesn't seem to be a bottom or a surface, then there seems to be only one escape. I have heard people say "how cowardly" suicide is; but I have to disagree. I think it would take a lot of guts to do it. After all it is a permanent move. Although we all have our ideas on what might happen next there is no way to know until you make the move.
I hope my ramblings here have some value. If not I apologize and will gladly delete.
|
|
Karen
Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
|
When medication does not work, some people benefit greatly from ECT treatments.
|
|
dfrost7
climber
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2010 - 02:08pm PT
|
Tobia,
I agree. You have a great deal of courage to talk about one of the things people feel so badly (ashamed) about they keep it hidden. Fact is, you are probably in the company of those who are going through the same thing.
I got locked in depression after two close deaths in my life. I couldn't get out and couldn't talk about it to anyone. It would have been like trying to get people to believe in fairies or something. It lasted almost a year. It felt like it wouldn't end.
Thanks for talking about this. No one thinks it's a "you" thread. Darryl Mansfield (harmonica blues hall of famer) has a condition like yours. Very same description. Find him on FaceBook and friend him. He has made a public stand on the topic.
Keeping you in prayer, you matter.
Laurie
|
|
mike m
Trad climber
black hills
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
|
The OP talks about feeling there is empirical evidende. I have seen none posted so far only anecdotal evidence. One of the big things with science is that correlation does not imply causality. Think of the thousands o sport climbers out there that climb regularly that take very little risk. Boulderers rarely could end there life by their activities, but might subject themselves to serious risk. Many soloists have their climbs wired before they attempt them and the same with hedpoints. If they wanted to kill themselves why would they practice. There are a few people out there that are doing things way over their head that may be suicidal, but I don't think that is the norm. I would go on to say that many of the people that die doing risky things were not intending to kill themselves theyjust make a mistake in judgement. Just my two cents.
|
|
Tobia
Social climber
GA
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
|
Karen, Laurie & Base:
Thanks for your kind words and input. Thanks for the prayers also! It seems like I have discussed the ECT with the doctors in the past; they seemed to think it wouldn't benefit me; I can't remember why. Sometimes I feel like grabbing some 110V and give it a whirl!
|
|
JOEY.F
Social climber
sebastopol
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2010 - 05:15pm PT
|
"Climbing is easy, it's living that's hard"
Spencer Tracy.
Well actually, he said it about Acting.
Brave Tobia,
Sending you good vibes, you send a lot of them back on the music thread.
And Wanda too...
|
|
coz
Trad climber
California
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2010 - 06:22pm PT
|
Climbers, real climbers, the top of the heap in the danger department are in my laymen's point of view, quite suicidal. Most are dead, what further proof do you need. They have admitted their depression and suicidal thoughts to me, but out of respect, I will not name names. I would say soon, the boldest climber of late will die in short order. I think if you love these people, reel them in and get them the help they need, pronto.
Climbing is fun, if played safe, it's a great sport, but most people on this forum have little idea about the outer boundary of the edge, believe me, it's a scary and dark place.
Werner, perhaps you should tell us what reality is, because all life is theory, all thoughts are reality to the thinker, dogma is the answer for the truth seeker desperate to make sense of the unknowable. Any religion is a theory, and at best a grasp at straws, really my good friend, your reality is your perception of reality, not mine or anyone else's, this makes the wondrous- beautiful and the answer to the question ultimately unknowable.
|
|
Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
|
suicide grovels in my esteem,
for i exploit chaos right up to the screamin bitter fukin end where logic and reality finally rear their calm and demeaning smiles.
not before, though. do i consent. for i see no real life within the realms prescibed by my diluted and ill defined culture.
chaos rules my strides. i go. and i go. and i go.
its like that placement where nothing below can welcome a dynamic entry... but you continue onward, upward, beyondward into your hopes and dreams and conclusions of, the beyond. the future. the possibilities?
often though, im left teetering upon my soul's capacity, just stepping beyond that which it reluctantly invites,
then i scramble back across the... vital... plane, where life is. and dreams MAY BE.
one day, perhaps i will brace and race forth into a psychological or physical realm where i've not appropriate footage, and then,
bang.
the process that began our tribes story, will end mine.
but we'll see. you. and me. any my daughters. and all that which can't fit within a sentence, but guides us.
|
|
Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2010 - 06:42pm PT
|
Glacier Point Needs a counselor to spot potential jumpers.
|
|
Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2010 - 07:07pm PT
|
Tobia so many in your situation. I feel your pain and will pray to God for you. How can we help you brother.
Jeff
|
|
dipper
climber
|
|
|
Mar 27, 2010 - 11:51pm PT
|
Jeff,
I have been reading your words for a long time.
Long ago, back on rec.climbing, I could not believe most everything you wrote.
Little did I know what you were experiencing in your head.
I wish you well in your struggle.
You are not alone.
Have you ever visited the website "PostSecret.com"?
http://postsecret.blogspot.com/
You may find drivel. You may find solace.
It gets updated each sunday with 20 new secrets sent in by folks from all over.
Sometimes Frank updates it late Sat. night.
What is written below is up there now.
Cheers,
Cinclus mexicanus tequilas
-----Letter
Dear Frank
I thought about sending a postcard but wanted to share a story without anonymity. I'm a senior at Cornell University and at your PostSecret Event here two years ago, I shared the following secret: "My main motivation for applying to the PhD program in Clinical Psychology was to honor the memory of my three cousins who took their lives by acquiring the training to help alleviate the despair of others."
Recently I received an offer of admission to the USUHS in Bethesda, Maryland where I will be joining the Suicide Behavior and Prevention Laboratory. As soon as I received that offer, I remembered the secret I shared with the audience that night and how deeply meaningful it will be to follow through.
It makes me smile to know I'll be moving so close to where all the secrets are sent and being only a few miles away from someone breaking down barriers in the mental health field in a way science has yet to discover.
-Jen Bakalar
-----Response
I still have good memories of the Cornell PostSecret Event in 2008. And being a basketball fan I enjoyed watching Cornell's team go deep in the NCAAs last week. But I've also been distressed to see the lopsided media coverage of student basketball compared to the half dozen student suicides at Cornell this year.
According to Yahoo, 7,573 news stories were written about Cornell Basketball in the past 30 days. During that same period, only 275 stories were written about the six Cornell students who took their own lives.
Suicide is a secret that we collectively keep from ourselves. But if we can find the courage to tell the painful stories, together, we can take the actions that will bring help and hope to those of us who suffer in silence.
This year over 1,000 college students will kill themselves. March is the month with the highest rate of suicides. Here are five ways you can fight back today.
1. Support the Pick-Up-The-Phone 30-City Tour with headliner Blue October.
2. Tell your story (or your friend's story) and learn how Active Minds can help you fight suicide at your school.
3. Join Congressman Kennedy, HopeLine founder Reese Butler, Jamie Tworkowski and myself in Washington DC, April 12th, for the 6th Annual National HopeLine Network Capital Hill Press Conference.
|
|
locker
Social climber
Desert
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2010 - 12:01am PT
|
"Do you think climbers are more suicide prone then general population? Are we really out there to kill ourselves?"...
I think that we are ALL affraid to die and ONE of the things climbing brings us is MORE of an appreciation for LIFE...
|
|
Banquo
Trad climber
Morgan Hill, CA
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2010 - 09:20am PT
|
I found this reference:
Delk, J. L. (1980) High risk sports as indirect self-destructive behaviour. In N. L. Farberow (Ed.), The many faces of suicide. New York: McGraw-Hill. Pp.393-409
But haven't read it.
Growing up, my dad was a field topographer for USGS and we moved usually twice a year, sometimes four times a year. We survey kids struggled a lot and hated the first day at new schools every few months. Our support group was small, maybe a sibling or two, your folks and the other survey kids. Since different families got different assignments, we weren't even always with the same survey kids. Once in awhile I look up a few of these survey kids and today they are a bunch of shivering, paranoid recluses as far as I can tell. Seriously, they are weirded out people now. I have never successfully reconnected with any of them, even the one that was my best friend through grade school and middle school.
One day in 7th grade I walked home from school with my best friend and fellow survey kid Jerry. My “house” (I grew up in a 700 square foot trailer) was on the way to the duplex where his family rented so we stopped at the trailer first. My mom was very distressed and sent Jerry off to the grade school to get his little sister. After Jerry left, mom told my brother and me that Jerry's brother had shot himself at home. She didn't want his mother to come home to the scene before it had been cleaned up and she wanted to stay at the trailer to be there when Jerry and his sister got back. Since there wasn’t anybody else to do it, my brother and I were sent to clean up. He had shot himself in the mouth and it was a f*#king mess.
Suicide by anyone had never really entered my conscious mind before but I decided then that it was something that I would never do because it was too cruel to all the survivors. I’m 53 now and I really haven’t had any other close suicides but there have been a few friends of friends and one parent of a friend of my kid. I have always come to the same conclusion. It creates more suffering than it cures. It seems very selfish.
I think that if suicidal people are climbing with a death wish, they are hoping that the exposure to risk will result in an accident. It’s like the story of the depressed guy sitting by a lake with a buddy. He tells his friend he’s depressed and thinking of killing himself. His friend, who is twice as big, grabs him, runs into the lake and pushes him under. The little guy fights like a wildcat to survive and comes up sputtering anger about his friend trying to kill him. Climbing is like that, when your feet start to pedal on a gritty slab and your fingertips tear on a tiny edge, you fight to hang on. Climbing is more about survival.
Postscript -
Suicidal people don’t make rational decisions and the decision to try and go through with it is certainly not rational. If you feel depressed or in any way self destructive, get help before you make a wrong decision. I think any of us or even anyone would help if they knew how and had the training. Suicidal people are fighting the blackest and loneliest fight there is and can’t win it alone.
|
|
Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2010 - 09:56pm PT
|
Still here, and plan to be.
My female boss talked to me about my depression on Fri and made me feel much better. At least I will get a good reference if I get laid off next month.
Juan
|
|
flyingkiwi1
Trad climber
Seattle WA
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2010 - 11:06pm PT
|
Every now and then I read something that strikes me as the pure, straight, humble truth. I'm absolutely not intending to disparage any other posts by comparison but, Banquo, that was a dam fine post.
Ian
|
|
slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 28, 2010 - 11:34pm PT
|
Still here, and plan to be.
Yeah, stick around! Lot's of stuff left to do around here!
|
|
Banquo
Trad climber
Morgan Hill, CA
|
|
|
Mar 29, 2010 - 08:07am PT
|
Thanks Ian - it's as honest as I can make it.
Hang in there everybody, there are good days and triumph ahead.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
Why is suicide such a big problem in our tribe, and how can we stop it?
|
|
medusa
Trad climber
culver city
|
|
Sounds like a bunch of BS to me!
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
Why is suicide such a big problem in our tribe, and how can we stop it?
Peter Haan wrote:
I started climbing 47 years ago. Of the thousands of climbers I have known, I seem to only be able to count three or so actual suicides. (Hemmings, Dolt, Yablonsky, Wiggins) Hardly a run on suicides here, I would have to say. I really doubt there is much of a significant correlation to be found here. Rate of suicide for 1999 in the general population in the US is .01% (1.3% of total deaths are from suicide). There is of course the associated fact that suicide attempts may be as many 8-25 for every successful one.
|
|
quietpartner
Trad climber
Moantannah
|
|
Reading psychological studies makes me want to commit suicide. ;^)
|
|
Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
|
|
I would suggest there is a correlation, with a different twist. Think of it as a form of self medication, most of us would agree climbing is theraputic. It's not the risk in itself that draws those with depression but rather the theraputic value optained from it. Endorphin's are a neurochemical that relieve's the negative symtoms of depression. We all can suffer from situational depression, a strained relationship, frustration at work or just listening to the news! How often have you simply put your shoes on and started climbing or taken a long run to soon find yourself relieved?
An old friend who I first started climbing with in 1965, stayed active all his life until he finally ended it several years ago. In retrospect he chronically suffered from depression and self medicated all those years with exercise and unfortunately also with alcohol and drugs. It wasnt the risk he was attracted to but rather the therapy he gained from it. I only wish I could have seen it and got him to seek professional help for his acute condition, such is life in the rear view mirror.
|
|
Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
|
|
you gotta do what you gotta do.
no amount of analysis or hypnosis or rigamortis will change your destiny's horizon.
self medicate. exercise. swallow risk whole. shift reality. lie on your back. stand up and run.
one's entire pursuit is to perpetuate the blink. as long as the brink will have you.
i have life confused with something more glorious, like sex. its just life and nothing worth a tizzy. i fumble it and drop it and drink it and live it and f*#k it. someday i'll die it, too.
for now i try to plant my feet where i think they'll not slip. so far so good. im an accomplished liver, with a compromised liver. i merely speculate on my next breath, and dream about dancing shoes.
ta ta i'll twirl off into the horizon with a ribbon and a bow, to this tune:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4WzPyGhLw8&feature=related
|
|
Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
|
|
^^^well said Chuck, you are wise beyond your age! Let's have that beer for life.
|
|
Johnny K.
climber
Southern,California
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2011 - 09:06pm PT
|
slevin
She, in fact, came up with a theory that "rock climbing and mountaineering is a channel for self-destructive behavior for highly driven people".
ha.Our theory is,she is a gumby social city slicker who doesnt know how precious the mountains are to people like us.
Rock climbing,mountaineering,alpinism etc etc is a form of meditation and self enlightenment in mother nature so to speak.It could not be any further than self-destructive.
You tell her she can blow that theory up her arse.Tell her to enjoy life and stop trying to dissect things in life she will never understand.
There are more emo kids committing suicide in one month because their iphones lost service,than you can add up in a whole society of climbers in a lifetime.
|
|
LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
|
|
|
Feb 26, 2011 - 11:47pm PT
|
maybe climbers and mountaineers don't fear death as much as others.
|
|
Rolfr
Sport climber
North Vancouver BC
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2011 - 12:17am PT
|
I call bullsh#t.
I take risks in business and in climbing, you can’t pick the fruit if you don’t go out on the limb.
I think climbers have more in common with entrepreneurs than people who commit suicide. Look at some of the famous climbers who have turned their accomplishments on the rock into successful businesses.
|
|
Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2011 - 06:43am PT
|
Rock climbing,mountaineering,alpinism etc etc is a form of meditation and self enlightenment in mother nature so to speak.It could not be any further than self-destructive.
followed by
You tell her she can blow that theory up her arse.
Hmmmm. How is that meditation and enlightenment thing working out for you? :-)
|
|
Dingus Milktoast
Gym climber
Who'll stop the reign?
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2011 - 07:21am PT
|
Big tent; climbers. Lots of personality types. Are climbers more likely to be scientists? Authors? Photographers? Engineers? Carpenters?
If we use ST as an example, maybe.... Excitable OCDs, calm planners and brilliant athletes.
more than likely, climbing probably saved more individuals lives vs suicide...
'just saying...
ec
This might actually support the theory ec, if you think about it? The OP asks 'prone?'
How many wild out of control young men had declared that climbing saved them?
But see most young men 15-25 are suicidal, and most of them don't know it.
DMT
|
|
Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2011 - 12:31pm PT
|
Climbing makes me happy, not feeling like I'm taunting death.
|
|
Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
|
OP
Seems to be the same as saying "You're crazy" for doing what you do.
Same can be said of smoking.
Same can be said of self-mutilation (aka tattooing, piercing)
Same can be said of many other things I cannot come up with right now...
Motorcycle racing, race car driving, skydiving, base jumping... and on, and on.
Fact is, there are so many people out there who climb, and don't end up dead by their own hands.
The fact that every once n a while there is an offing does not make the numbers skew all that much. Like any other activity, people can "get into it" one day, and after the first climb be done with it. Then there are those who take up the activity as a passion for a short while, the weekend warrior, so to speak, then drop it when they find out taking it to the next level is going to take some amount of concentration. Then there are the ones who start, learn fast, take off, and burn out for any number of reasons, but they stop. Then there are those who have the rest of their lives to spend with friends, make new friends, and the like.... think of that 80 yr old dude... he knows what I'm taking about.
If all these people are taken as a whole, the rate of the suicide wouldn't be much more than the general population (though, we may never really know for sure the exact numbers because there is no getting a number on exactly how many people climbing, or exactly how many people make up the general population.
I disagree with you psychiatrist friend.
She may be taking the long winded way of saying "you're gonna die!!!"
cheers
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
|
some are. some aren't. the latter should stick around awhile in case things change.
|
|
matlinb
Trad climber
Albuquerque
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
|
Pretty sure climbing saved me.
|
|
Jebus H Bomz
climber
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2011 - 02:23pm PT
|
It is an interesting discussion but absolutey ridiculous as far as listing as a potential risk factor. My job is dealing with attempted or potential suicides. They don't rock climb, they are mostly depressed or suffer mental illness.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2011 - 03:05pm PT
|
Earlier in this thread a fellow who, I believe did later end his life, said he felt better after talking with his supervisor. She may have understood what he was going through. But ultimately the fiscal situation left her no choice.
Life is more of a loan than it is a gift. While living, people tend to do those things that give them the best return on that loan. It is only after some threshold has been passed that someone decides to pay off the loan.
I would propose everyone has such a threshold, not just a few. Everyone's threshold is different, and only a few are ever pushed all the way to it.
I think this thread makes a fundamental error when it assumes some sort of defect in a few people. If we work under that assumption, I think this thread cannot contribute.
|
|
johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2011 - 03:38pm PT
|
I think climbers have a greater comfort level with regard to living on the edge. An acceptance as it were that we are all going to die sometime, so why not push it and see how we will fare? Test our limits? Maybe we have a greater acceptance of death, but I think that gives us a greater appreciation for living. So, no; I don't buy it. I've known the odd climber that seemed suicidal, but by and large climbers embrace life, all be it in a way that some would consider a death wish. So yeah, we challenge the beast more than the general population. That does not mean we have a desire to check out without fighting our ass off to live.
|
|
MBrown
Big Wall climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2011 - 08:43pm PT
|
i can see climbers being suicide prone when they cant climb...
|
|
yoginigirl
Social climber
Eureka
|
|
|
Feb 27, 2011 - 10:27pm PT
|
Hmmm ~ If that is the truth then it would stand to reason that anyone who: surfs, hang-glides, skis, skateboards, etc,,, is also suicidal. I would have to see the data. From what I know that is not the case, most people do these things to feel fit, alive, and empowered.
|
|
michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2012 - 02:17pm PT
|
Maybe this is why I like highballs and want to get a crotch rocket.
|
|
Tobia
Social climber
GA
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2012 - 05:02pm PT
|
Strange.
Having a tough time right now; I sat down, with my head in a weird way, looking for a distraction. And what thread do I see? I wondered if I had opined.
I saw my posts from the past. I didn't read through ; but then again I didn't have to because I am pretty sure of what I had written. It's like looking in your rear-view mirror and seeing emptiness.
Way past twenty but wondering when the revolving seasons will end. Where are new dreams?
|
|
KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
|
|
|
Apr 12, 2012 - 11:52pm PT
|
Way past twenty but wondering when the revolving seasons will end. Where are new dreams?
The dream began when I was in the 7th grade, and I was sent to the Illinois State science fair, at Crowne Hall on the IIT campus designed by the famous modernist Mies Van de Rohe.
When I came home, I announced to my folks that I wanted to attend IIT. They said, well, no, son, you ought to apply to MIT.
Via a childhood that, due to my Father's frequent transfers as a regional mgr of TWA, I ended up in a SF Peninsula HS, via Chicago and NYC. Flew back to Greenwich Village and back for a week, on Dad's passes, when I was 15, with 20 bucks in my pocket. I simply showed up at a PS8 School friend, unannounced.
I had to settle for a fine Public School, called the University of California at Berkeley. My parents divorced, and I was on my own at 19. I had to take a year off, during which year I eloped with my wife of 38 years. We put each and one another through School.
1st Dream.
Then, during my year of hell, during the recession starting in 1974, I realized that if I wasn't making a living doing something I was passionate about, I was condemning myself to a lifetime of cubicle hell. Not only had I discovered my life passions, I started on a path which, I hoped, would lead to a balanced and integrated lifestyle. I mean, I loved climbing...but I certainly did not want to Guide, for when play becomes work, what's play?
2nd Dream.
We moved here when I was 27. I'd decided the path to integrating career goals with lifestyle was to engage myself in www.MountainResortArchitecture.com
3rd Dream.
Last Easter marks the 30th anniversary of our move to the Eastside. The A+E firm I'd hired onto went out of business in 2 years, due to the recession of the early 80s. Which I'd anticipated, seeing all of the vacancies in Mammoth - I'd applied for a leave of absence from the Graduate program at Cal, for what I'd thought would be a 2 year sabbatical. Overdrawn $375 at the bank (having not been paid in a couple of weeks), and lacking busfare back to Berkeley, I decided to start my own architectural practice - with a 1 year old daughter.
4th Dream - Total Immersion. What did we have to lose by trying? even though no one was building anything out here. We learned how to ski (for free, at the Lift, before we were advanced enough to handle the backcountry of the Crest summits).
5th Dream, -
We bought a half acre here, and built our own house. Our choice of locale had to do with self-medicating for severe stress, CV difficulties, peripheral neuropathies, and everything that goes with being the sole breadwinner and Chief Rainmaker of a firm who went from $15/hr to $75/hr in one week. By running 7 miles through the Milks every other morning before work (to which I'd show up whenever I felt like it); free weights, yoga, nordic track and xc touring...and, of course, bouldering every Wednesday after work, when the acetylene sky disappeared behind Mt. Tom.
6th Dream -
My 1996 laminectomey, from a compressive lumbar fracture in 1984, failed - I think it was due to the squeeze chimney on Moses Jimmy Dunn Route. I wasn't being reckless - heck, I jugged the 40 feet of 5.11 below, to avoid a shock load. My PK's were advanced from CIII to CII. If you don't feel 100% on Lead, because a fall might induce permanent neuropathy (such as paralysis), then the Lead is no longer fun - in fact, you are at much worse exposure from a less than mortal fall.
Gee, I almost forgot about the OP.
Simple litmus: try taking a deliberate Leader fall, on Yosemite exposure. I dare anyone here to try. I'll bet you will try your hardest not to fall on a TR. Jim Beyer: "No, I don't have a death wish; I have a Life
wish."
Of course, when I hired Kevin to Guide me up Moab trophies, he was always very peculiar, and adamant, that that I remain well back from the Rim, and stayed tied in, until his supervised descent. I didn't need to ask why. I guess it does happen.
7th Dream-
In 2010, I was stiffed for $40,000 by a client. Having cleared out our life savings in a futile effort to absorb the loss, we were finally forced to sell our rental property, which netted a positive cash flow of $1,000/mo. Only after the sewer lateral failed, and flooded out both the house, and the tenants. About $10,000 in uninsured loss.
There's much more serious trouble on my planning horizon. And these entanglements pale in comparison to living in chronic pain for 14 years - the meds are almost as bad.
8th Dream-
Alright, you take it from here. What would your do in my shoes. Heck, I actually did a Sierra Peak FA just in 2010, failed to mention it.
Young people in their 20s, particularly men, go thru some dark and evil years. Often w/o any obvious precipitating factors. I lost my best friend (to a cancer that I insisted he see a Dr. about immediately, instead of writhing in pain on his office floor), my mistress, and work prospects, all within 1 month, 14 years ago...same time as I lost climbing, running, skiing during my lunch hour, to CII PK's.
No, clinical depression is not something you can "snap out of." I'm on a very effective SSRI med. Guess what I feel like doing every time I try and discontinue them (because I'm such a bitchen' strong Man)?
Tell you what: let's enter into a suicide pact. One condition: you must wait for 15 years. You're best years are quite a bit ahead of you. Nearing 60 myself (saw that guy in the mirror again yesterday), it's only of late that I've noticed that architects seem to do their best work in their 60's and 70's (if they live that long). It takes a certain touch, a maturity, to design something that will stand for at least a hundred years. And be accountable for it.
|
|
nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
|
|
|
Apr 13, 2012 - 12:12pm PT
|
Tobia, It seriously brakes my heart that you are suffering )-;... wishing you brightness and comfort..
Hold on to your faith...
Sending up prayers for you....
Please talk to someone... don't be alone with your thoughts...
Saludos..
Love.. nita
|
|
| Messages 1 - 125 of total 125 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!