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WBraun
climber
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Oct 24, 2005 - 11:29pm PT
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No sh-it Minerals? Thanks for reminding me and settin me straight.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Oct 24, 2005 - 11:34pm PT
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No problem, Werner. Sometimes it’s difficult to separate the rollers from the floaters…
Not much Sentinel Gd up-glacier from C4… ;)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 24, 2005 - 11:54pm PT
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"Does anybody who's likely to be leading Serenity Crack really consider aliens special gear anymore? Most people I know consider them (or something similarly sized) a standard part of any rack."
Actually, a great many folks who climb Serenity are from overseas and barely speak English if at all. Aliens are fairly specialized and if you've ever tried to buy them, know they can be hard to come by.
Another aspect is the wetness. That part of the crack is often soaked and cams don't seem to stick in there as well when it's wet.
That said, yeah, it's no problem for me and for many others to climb without that bolt under most conditions. Are we ready to go chop every 40 year old bolt that we don't absolutely need anymore? Where does it end? How about reducing the bolt ladder on East Butt of Middle to 3 bolts? Wheat Thin will be chopped next. I think we could chop one or two from maxine's wall and still stay within a stricter standard of purity. Heck, aren't those Greg Barnes routes letting the riff raff climb where they were scared to venture before? Let's trim them down too. Why is there a bolt near the ground on West Crack when you just have to climb 8 more feet to bomber gear?
(actually I wouldn't be surprised if Maxine's used to have a fixed pin or bolt below the current first one, looks like something broke or was chopped or both there.)
Peace
Karl
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 25, 2005 - 12:05am PT
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Well Karl, aren't those examples a bit different since those bolts were original? I think it's pretty clear from the old Roper guide and the general comments here that most folks think that bolt was NOT original.
Supposedly the West Crack bolt was put in on the FA by Sacherer after he broke a knob, decked on the little ledge (and didn't tumble off!), drove to the Valley for a bolt kit (a lot longer drive back then), came back up and put in the bolt.
What about the ancient rusty bolts on Braille Book? Not original, not there for at least 6 years after the FA (and dozens of ascents), but now they are very old rusty 1/4" with Leepers.
I suppose if there was a way bomber fixed pin where that bolt was, and it was there for years after Serenity became a free climb, and someone added the bolt and removed the pin (ie bolt added to replace the bomber pin), then that's more of a comparison to the other examples - but still not really the same.
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Link
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Oct 25, 2005 - 02:31am PT
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Greg kinda beat me to the question, but...
What if someone fixed a bomber pin a few feet below where the bolt in question used to be?
Would this change the character of the climb? You bet... just like the fixed pins on other routes (or the next pitch of the route in question).
If someone were to place such a pin tomorrow... and another someone were to rip it out on principle... that second someone should also remove the pins higher up on the route... along with the thousands of fixed pins all over the valley that were placed "after the first ascent" and accepted by the climbing community over time. Hell, take a look at the regular route on Half Dome... or classic crack climbs like the Rostrum. We accept these pins because "they've always been there," but most were not placed on the first ascent.
So... can climbers today "establish" fixed pins on crack climbs that are otherwise difficult to protect?
Just a conversation starter... curious what the "community" thinks.
Serenity crack... oh the irony.
-Link
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Oct 25, 2005 - 03:53am PT
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Seems like standards have risen (a rising tide lifts even hacks like me), and gear has improved, to where the Link scenario shouldn't be necessary. If people have been getting by for years, why start nailing now?
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toluene*brainblow
Social climber
bag of toxic vapors
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Oct 25, 2005 - 03:57am PT
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I think Coiler chopped it. He was talkin' all Chop Suey the other day.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Oct 25, 2005 - 04:59am PT
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Well Greg, despite all the old codgers like me we have here on Supertopo, nobody has claimed to have ever climbed Serenity without seeing that bolt until Saturday. Where is there any comment that says the bolt isn't original? The climb was only rated old wave A3 at worst. Who knows when it went in?
Is it somehow clear in the Roper guide that the bolt is not original? The Roper Guide is not the supertopo that lists all the gear. Anybody know the history of that bolt?Did the choppers learn the history? I looked at my old Roper guide but I ripped that page out to take up a climb long ago.
Peace
karl
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A Dzzl
Trad climber
Praha, Czech Republic
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Oct 25, 2005 - 09:00am PT
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You should send all the hardmen/choppers over here to some sandstone areas like Adr, so they can feel the piss running down their legs. It's easy to chop routes you've already did.
foget aliens, think 5.5mm. kevlar knots.
If you think you are tough, I invite you...
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 25, 2005 - 12:13pm PT
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Actually Karl I don't know if it was original, but my point was that the discussion hadn't touched on the chance that it was not original (maybe it was, since that was a knifeblade seam to start with and 35' up is where the FA wanted something good).
Just because a bolt is very old doesn't mean it was original. On the other hand, just because a bolt was not original doesn't mean it shouldn't be there - just look at the hundreds of bolted belays in the Valley where the bolts replaced old fixed pins or trashed trees.
I actually don't have a strong opinion one way or another on the bolt, and if the community seemed united in wanting to replace it, I'd even hand drill a new one. But looks like it's about 50/50 on whether the bolt should be there.
Anyway, anyone know how to get in touch with Tom Higgins to see if he remembers if the bolt was there on the first free ascent? FA by Glen Denny & Les Wilson, neither of them are around I assume?
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Peter
climber
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Oct 25, 2005 - 12:24pm PT
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Kinda absurd to be offended by the tiny bolt and not the massive pin scars that prevent you from getting a decent placement.
Why doesn't the chopper get serious and mold some epoxy and rock dust into the pin scars to re-create the nice aesthetic finger crack that must of been there thirty years ago?
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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Oct 25, 2005 - 12:58pm PT
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Not to mention that the route in no way resembles what it used to look like in its original state. Whether a bolt was needed back when that was a knifeblade seam matters about as much as whether the trail b/w Olmstead Pt and Tenaya Lake needed a guardrail before they blasted a roadcut across it.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 25, 2005 - 01:05pm PT
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Well the first time I did the route back in 1970 with pitons I don't remember a bolt, but then again that's a long time ago to remember a detail like that.
I could be wrong ...
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Shack
Big Wall climber
So. Cal.
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Oct 25, 2005 - 02:23pm PT
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Last time I led that pitch, in the '80's, I was glad that bolt was there.
I remember fumbling around trying to get in a 2-cam friend placement. Finally, I just said screw it and went for the bolt.
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1096
Social climber
hell
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Oct 25, 2005 - 05:18pm PT
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Maybe Tom Higgins can shed some light on the bolt as he did the 1st FA. The bolt is not mentioned in the Roper Book and the rt description is pretty vague at best."Nail or free climb 250 feet..." The bolt is in the Meyers Greeen 8.5 x 11" guide and that came out in the early 70's. Meyers Guide also shows a bolt on the 1st pitch of Outer Limits, hmmmmmmmmmmm maybe that should be replaced.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Oct 25, 2005 - 06:00pm PT
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When folks lead the route with pins, I dout there was
much need for a bolt. I'd suspect that the bolt was
added shortly after the route went clean--it's pretty
hard to get solid nut placements in the scars.
Even if you have all the trick gear, the pro is pretty
sketchy (unless you're really good at placing trad gear).
I see the elegance of cracks without bolts, but the
bolt on Serinity seemed to serve a pretty good purpose.
I haven't done it for a while; I assume the bolt was
fairly new (and that it didn't break off in a fall?).
:- k
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Oct 25, 2005 - 06:05pm PT
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Me: "Who drilled that ugly POS on Midnight Lightning??"
Werner: " Oh! ..... too bad, ...... the rock is God?"
Interesting response. Naw, I suppose the rock ain't God. And anybody is pretty much free to drill where ever they want. Still, I think that drilling a bolt at chest height on Midnight Lightning is pretty ghetto.
Not that I plan to climb the thing in this version of my life .. .. ..
:- k
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Oct 25, 2005 - 07:09pm PT
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I say leave the bolt gone. 25 years ago it was needed. With modern gear both passive and active it just is not needed.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Oct 25, 2005 - 07:58pm PT
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Cool Clint!
Could you email me Denny's info?
Greg
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