Chopped Bolt on Serenity Crack!

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Messages 1 - 76 of total 76 in this topic
pazreal

Sport climber
New Brunswick, NJ
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 22, 2005 - 09:59pm PT
This morning I went to climb Serenity/Sons and the bolt that is listed in the topos as being some 30ft off the ground is now gone and chopped. The party ahead of me said they scoped the route last night from the base at roughly 6PM and the bolt was there and it was also there earlier yesterday as my friend climbed it. Anyway I ended up finding the bolt head and washer at the base...no sign of the hanger. Needless to say, pitch 1 is now a bit spicy but manageable. The rest of the climb was without incident and was fantastic.

P.S. Whoever chopped that bolt, gracias el doucho!
Rhodo-Router

Trad climber
Otto, NC
Oct 22, 2005 - 10:07pm PT
Let's weigh in here, folks: troll or no troll?
WBraun

climber
Oct 22, 2005 - 10:31pm PT
I don't believe it's a troll it's Arthur he works for Link.
ricardo

Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
Oct 22, 2005 - 10:42pm PT
here we go again .. another bolt thread
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 22, 2005 - 11:12pm PT
Kind of a bold chop I'd say.

After all, I clipped that bolt over 25 years ago (actually the 1/4 incher that was replaced at some point)

And the pro is only OK between there and the ground if you have Aliens.

So if it's true (insert slander about choppers here) Go chop Wheat Thin next.

Peace

karl
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
Oct 23, 2005 - 02:17pm PT
How is the pro up to where the bolt is/was? (assuming it hasn't been replaced already)

Does this mean that someone is Going To DIE™?

And is/was that a FFA bolt or knott?
Rhodo-Router

Trad climber
Otto, NC
Oct 23, 2005 - 02:55pm PT
Going to break some bones,fer sure. 30 feet up or so, greasy sixpack holds... that thing spooks me every time. I've probably always been too scared to fall.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
Oct 23, 2005 - 03:00pm PT
30 feet ain't so bad...How's the landing?
Link

Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
Oct 23, 2005 - 03:02pm PT

Whoa! Did the route Friday and clipped the bolt.

Hmmm... every pin scar we yard on to get up the darn thing isn't a first ascent scar either...

Sounds like the name just got a bit more ironic.

-Link
James

Social climber
My Subconcious
Oct 23, 2005 - 03:06pm PT
If you are going to chop or replace something, you should make it known. Guilt and justification do not matter as much as claiming responsibility.
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
Oct 23, 2005 - 03:07pm PT
Link –– That's why I mentioned FFA.

Did people continue to pound pins after the FFA?
James

Social climber
My Subconcious
Oct 23, 2005 - 03:09pm PT
Hardman Knott,
You can place a piece prior to the bolt, it requires adapt gear placement knowledge.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
Oct 23, 2005 - 03:12pm PT
So what else is new?

And you can put a shitty 1st piece on The Line @ Lover's Leap, and deck when it blows.

Happens all the time.

Like I said, what else is new?
SoloBolo

Trad climber
groveland, ca
Oct 23, 2005 - 03:16pm PT
good,
the bomber placements start 5' up from that bolt. its really a useless bolt.
ThomasKeefer

Trad climber
Monterey, CA
Oct 23, 2005 - 04:57pm PT
The fact that bomber placements are only a few more feet is true. I would actually say that if the bolt was in fact chopped and the hole filled then it should not be put back there. I think that it would make really good sense to put a bolt about 1/2 to 2/3 the original distance up. That would make it more useful. A fall from that height would be pretty bad and then you would also likely fall off the pedestal you start from. The landing area is very flat in a small area but around that there are plenty of flakes to make the landing less than ideal.
HalHammer

Trad climber
CA
Oct 23, 2005 - 05:06pm PT
Put it back. That route is too classic. Scary enough already when that start is wet half the time. Manky nuts/aliens aren't a good answer.
Shack

Big Wall climber
So. Cal.
Oct 23, 2005 - 07:15pm PT
"Did people continue to pound pins after the FFA?"

The FFA doesn't necessarily mean the first "clean" ascent.
WBraun

climber
Oct 23, 2005 - 11:35pm PT
He he he, I remember nailing this climb back in 1970. Pitons man pitons, so I was one of the many guilty bad boys that made and contributed to those nice pin scars you see today.
briand

Trad climber
bay area
Oct 24, 2005 - 02:55am PT
It's not that bad. Should be able to get a 1# Friend in about half way up to the bolt. Landing is fairly flat. And the pin scars are jugs.

brian
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 24, 2005 - 03:40am PT
Serious doubts about that #1 friend. A Red Alien would be a fair bet half way to the bolt. Not bomber but would hold a fall if well placed.

Don't forget that this section of crack is frequently wet as well. The whole first 50 feet can be wet for weeks or more.

While the whole first section is pretty easy, pinching pin scars is an unusual technique fairly unique to Serenity crack and some folks don't quite get it. I've seen huge square foot rasberries on the butt of folks who fell aways and were caught by that bolt.

The bolt location is at least 25 years old. It would be pretty darn Taliban to go looking to chop bolts that established where the pro is not straightforward. It is, after all, a wasteland of pin scars and the only reason any clean pro fits in the first 40 feet is because huge holes have been chiseled and beaten into the stone by years of nailing.

I don't need the darn bolt cause I've done the first pitch blindfolded, done it in Tevas, done in at night, and done it wet. It was my first 5.9 (at the time that was the rating) lead, on the same day as my first 5.8 lead. Fundamentalism just kind of rubs me the wrong way.

If somebody replaces the bolt, and I think it should be replaced, and they are still in a climbing mood, the very last pitch of Sons has a protection bolt that sorely needs replacement.

Come to think of it, that final anchor, which consists of slings wrapped around a big tree that drips sap around the slings, should be replaced with bolts for the sake of that tree.

Peace

Karl
ChrisW

Trad climber
boulder, co
Oct 24, 2005 - 04:03am PT
Put toes in pin scar, CRANK HARD! Feel the pain!

A fall near the bolt with the meager pro not holding the fall would not be death unless you fell on your head of course. You would get injured. Maybe a bruised foot, Maybe a broken heel....broken wrist...or worst? Bring a crash Pad. That will solve the no bolt problem until some good folk replaces it.
1096

Social climber
hell
Oct 24, 2005 - 01:59pm PT
That bolt is at least 30 years old as it is in the Meyers Green Guide and I clipped it 1974. Replace the bolt! and forget what DMT says.
eastsidedirtbag@hotmail.com

climber
Mammoth Lakes,CA
Oct 24, 2005 - 02:18pm PT
I 'm for replacing the bolt-- pretty weak ethical statement to pull 30 year old bolts on mega-trade routes that people love in their existing condition.
Saw a guy deck pulling up rope to clip the bolt once-- slid to the ground and got abrasions but was otherwise OK.
Peace out.
eastsidedirtbag@hotmail.com

climber
Mammoth Lakes,CA
Oct 24, 2005 - 02:18pm PT
I 'm for replacing the bolt-- pretty weak ethical statement to pull 30 year old bolts on mega-trade routes that people love in their existing condition.
Saw a guy deck pulling up rope to clip the bolt once-- slid to the ground and got abrasions but was otherwise OK.
Peace out.
Dog

climber
Oct 24, 2005 - 02:34pm PT
I am with Dingus,

Replace the bolt and use an offset as a placement 5 feet below until its replaced.

Meanwhile stomp the living hell outa the SOB that chopped it.

Done this route 650 times and the bolt stays!
Greg Barnes

climber
Oct 24, 2005 - 02:42pm PT
Tough call on this one.

Would opinions be different if the chopped bolt had been a spinner 1/4" with Leeper that no one had ever replaced?
mark miller

Social climber
Reno
Oct 24, 2005 - 02:42pm PT
Ya know the climbing isn't hard up to that bolt, but I've backed off that pitch 5' feet below the bolt because I didn't have solid gear( a offset Freind, in backwards). I've fallen that distance before and didn't like the consequences, shattered wrist and broken fibia. Folks will argue all day about a bolt there or( 1/3 of the way down would be smart) but what's the deal with changing established routes?
Holdplease2

Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
Oct 24, 2005 - 03:03pm PT
When you haul your Crash Pad up Serenity crack, I would recommend using a minitraxion rather than a protraxion. With such a lite load, the pully will be plenty big enough.

-Kate.
malabarista

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Oct 24, 2005 - 03:09pm PT
my vote: replace
Skinner

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Oct 24, 2005 - 03:23pm PT
Did this on Sat sans bolt, had to inspect to see where the hole used to be, great job on the camoflauge, saw the bolt the day before. Aliens did the trick (and not falling), um yeah, it was chopped because gear fits right?? So really, all the bolts will be gone eventually once all the climbs get worked enough by traffic be it pitons or whatever, didn't see anything else interesting except a 2 foot turd at the end of the ledge, hmmmm.....
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 24, 2005 - 03:42pm PT
I don't think folks should need special gear (Aliens) to do a classic established route. Not everybody checks the supertop forum to see the detail beta on exactly what gear is required.

I actually think that seeing that bolt up there makes folks climb bolder. You know the bolt is there so you lead it out to the bolt. For folks who haven't already done the route, they'll start up, see that the pro is dicey and fiddle around every 5 feet until they finally get something. It's great to fire to that bolt, clip and then fire 20 more feet with no worries.

Peace

karl
Bryce Breslin

climber
Oakland, California
Oct 24, 2005 - 04:06pm PT
I did this route for the first time on Saturday morning - a very crowded day on Serenity Crack, and no one backed off because the bolt was gone. I think we were all surprised that it wasn't there, but after a few moments of idle comments, everybody moved on and got to climbing. My partner and I were the last party of the day, and I believe that every party above us was also climbing this line for the first time.
I asked for opinions as parties rapped past us (we continued up to Sons): consensus seemed to be disgreement with the removal, especially given the fact that it was done anonymously, and in the dark of night. That's a tail-between-the-legs move, everybody agreed.
The removal itself is well done - I paused on lead to look, and look hard, for the chopped metal. Couldn't find it. My own opinion, for what it's worth: very cool to sink that first cam, without clipping the bolt. If a bolt's put in, I'll probably skip it next time I go, because I've done it sans and it felt good.
Karl: I didn't see anybody fiddling much with gear that day, those first twenty feet of scars are so beat out that nothing is really even tempting; but there certainly were some shaky legs, including my own.
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Oct 24, 2005 - 06:55pm PT
"Tough call on this one.

Would opinions be different if the chopped bolt had been a spinner 1/4" with Leeper that no one had ever replaced?"

If it was a popular route with a bolt that had been manky for many years (and no one thought it was worth the trouble to replace), absolutely it would be different.

If it was a route that rarely got climbed that had a manky bolt and nobody bothered to replace the bolt because it didn't climbed and no one climbed it because... That's different (but thats not Serenity).

Given that the bolt was established and the start, even if it is not "hard", is somewhat intimidating and/or sometimes wet, I would put it in the very lame category to chop. However, I doubt it is worth a bolt war over.

I'm with Karl as to putting in rap bolts to save the tree, but I can't imagine they would last. Maybe after the tree dies/rots and looks scary, a rap anchor there would be acceptable.

cheers

Given that the original ascent involved pins, I guess we could skip replacing the bolt and just hammer a couple of pins in the first 20 feet. Might be a better spot than where the bolt was anyway...
Forest

Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
Oct 24, 2005 - 07:16pm PT
I don't think folks should need special gear (Aliens) to do a classic established route.

Does anybody who's likely to be leading Serenity Crack really consider aliens special gear anymore? Most people I know consider them (or something similarly sized) a standard part of any rack.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 24, 2005 - 08:07pm PT
Speaking of bolts .. .. ..

Who drilled that ugly POS on Midnight Lightning??

Worthless ground scum.

:- k
James

Social climber
My Subconcious
Oct 24, 2005 - 10:29pm PT
Kate-
Classic words of Wisdom.

A green camalot junior will go in prior to where the bolt is. It's a solid placement. One of the YMS guides once "guided" me up the thing and placed a piece there.
WBraun

climber
Oct 24, 2005 - 10:54pm PT
K-Man asked: "Who drilled that ugly POS on Midnight Lightning"

I ask "what is a POS"?
wildone

climber
right near the beach, boyeee (lord have mercy)
Oct 24, 2005 - 11:11pm PT
P.iece O.f S.hit, Werner.
I don't think he likes it.
WBraun

climber
Oct 24, 2005 - 11:19pm PT
Oh! ..... too bad, ...... the rock is God?
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Oct 24, 2005 - 11:25pm PT
No Werner, it's a mongoid chunk of Sentinel Granodiorite (~96 million years old) that rolled down the hill.
WBraun

climber
Oct 24, 2005 - 11:29pm PT
No sh-it Minerals? Thanks for reminding me and settin me straight.



Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Oct 24, 2005 - 11:34pm PT
No problem, Werner. Sometimes it’s difficult to separate the rollers from the floaters…

Not much Sentinel Gd up-glacier from C4… ;)
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 24, 2005 - 11:54pm PT
"Does anybody who's likely to be leading Serenity Crack really consider aliens special gear anymore? Most people I know consider them (or something similarly sized) a standard part of any rack."

Actually, a great many folks who climb Serenity are from overseas and barely speak English if at all. Aliens are fairly specialized and if you've ever tried to buy them, know they can be hard to come by.

Another aspect is the wetness. That part of the crack is often soaked and cams don't seem to stick in there as well when it's wet.

That said, yeah, it's no problem for me and for many others to climb without that bolt under most conditions. Are we ready to go chop every 40 year old bolt that we don't absolutely need anymore? Where does it end? How about reducing the bolt ladder on East Butt of Middle to 3 bolts? Wheat Thin will be chopped next. I think we could chop one or two from maxine's wall and still stay within a stricter standard of purity. Heck, aren't those Greg Barnes routes letting the riff raff climb where they were scared to venture before? Let's trim them down too. Why is there a bolt near the ground on West Crack when you just have to climb 8 more feet to bomber gear?

(actually I wouldn't be surprised if Maxine's used to have a fixed pin or bolt below the current first one, looks like something broke or was chopped or both there.)

Peace

Karl

Greg Barnes

climber
Oct 25, 2005 - 12:05am PT
Well Karl, aren't those examples a bit different since those bolts were original? I think it's pretty clear from the old Roper guide and the general comments here that most folks think that bolt was NOT original.

Supposedly the West Crack bolt was put in on the FA by Sacherer after he broke a knob, decked on the little ledge (and didn't tumble off!), drove to the Valley for a bolt kit (a lot longer drive back then), came back up and put in the bolt.

What about the ancient rusty bolts on Braille Book? Not original, not there for at least 6 years after the FA (and dozens of ascents), but now they are very old rusty 1/4" with Leepers.

I suppose if there was a way bomber fixed pin where that bolt was, and it was there for years after Serenity became a free climb, and someone added the bolt and removed the pin (ie bolt added to replace the bomber pin), then that's more of a comparison to the other examples - but still not really the same.
Link

Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
Oct 25, 2005 - 02:31am PT

Greg kinda beat me to the question, but...

What if someone fixed a bomber pin a few feet below where the bolt in question used to be?

Would this change the character of the climb? You bet... just like the fixed pins on other routes (or the next pitch of the route in question).

If someone were to place such a pin tomorrow... and another someone were to rip it out on principle... that second someone should also remove the pins higher up on the route... along with the thousands of fixed pins all over the valley that were placed "after the first ascent" and accepted by the climbing community over time. Hell, take a look at the regular route on Half Dome... or classic crack climbs like the Rostrum. We accept these pins because "they've always been there," but most were not placed on the first ascent.

So... can climbers today "establish" fixed pins on crack climbs that are otherwise difficult to protect?

Just a conversation starter... curious what the "community" thinks.

Serenity crack... oh the irony.

-Link
Rhodo-Router

Trad climber
Otto, NC
Oct 25, 2005 - 03:53am PT
Seems like standards have risen (a rising tide lifts even hacks like me), and gear has improved, to where the Link scenario shouldn't be necessary. If people have been getting by for years, why start nailing now?
toluene*brainblow

Social climber
bag of toxic vapors
Oct 25, 2005 - 03:57am PT
I think Coiler chopped it. He was talkin' all Chop Suey the other day.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Oct 25, 2005 - 04:59am PT
Well Greg, despite all the old codgers like me we have here on Supertopo, nobody has claimed to have ever climbed Serenity without seeing that bolt until Saturday. Where is there any comment that says the bolt isn't original? The climb was only rated old wave A3 at worst. Who knows when it went in?

Is it somehow clear in the Roper guide that the bolt is not original? The Roper Guide is not the supertopo that lists all the gear. Anybody know the history of that bolt?Did the choppers learn the history? I looked at my old Roper guide but I ripped that page out to take up a climb long ago.

Peace

karl
A Dzzl

Trad climber
Praha, Czech Republic
Oct 25, 2005 - 09:00am PT
You should send all the hardmen/choppers over here to some sandstone areas like Adr, so they can feel the piss running down their legs. It's easy to chop routes you've already did.

foget aliens, think 5.5mm. kevlar knots.

If you think you are tough, I invite you...

Greg Barnes

climber
Oct 25, 2005 - 12:13pm PT
Actually Karl I don't know if it was original, but my point was that the discussion hadn't touched on the chance that it was not original (maybe it was, since that was a knifeblade seam to start with and 35' up is where the FA wanted something good).

Just because a bolt is very old doesn't mean it was original. On the other hand, just because a bolt was not original doesn't mean it shouldn't be there - just look at the hundreds of bolted belays in the Valley where the bolts replaced old fixed pins or trashed trees.

I actually don't have a strong opinion one way or another on the bolt, and if the community seemed united in wanting to replace it, I'd even hand drill a new one. But looks like it's about 50/50 on whether the bolt should be there.

Anyway, anyone know how to get in touch with Tom Higgins to see if he remembers if the bolt was there on the first free ascent? FA by Glen Denny & Les Wilson, neither of them are around I assume?
Peter

climber
Oct 25, 2005 - 12:24pm PT
Kinda absurd to be offended by the tiny bolt and not the massive pin scars that prevent you from getting a decent placement.

Why doesn't the chopper get serious and mold some epoxy and rock dust into the pin scars to re-create the nice aesthetic finger crack that must of been there thirty years ago?

Rhodo-Router

Trad climber
Otto, NC
Oct 25, 2005 - 12:58pm PT
Not to mention that the route in no way resembles what it used to look like in its original state. Whether a bolt was needed back when that was a knifeblade seam matters about as much as whether the trail b/w Olmstead Pt and Tenaya Lake needed a guardrail before they blasted a roadcut across it.
WBraun

climber
Oct 25, 2005 - 01:05pm PT
Well the first time I did the route back in 1970 with pitons I don't remember a bolt, but then again that's a long time ago to remember a detail like that.

I could be wrong ...
Shack

Big Wall climber
So. Cal.
Oct 25, 2005 - 02:23pm PT
Last time I led that pitch, in the '80's, I was glad that bolt was there.
I remember fumbling around trying to get in a 2-cam friend placement. Finally, I just said screw it and went for the bolt.
1096

Social climber
hell
Oct 25, 2005 - 05:18pm PT
Maybe Tom Higgins can shed some light on the bolt as he did the 1st FA. The bolt is not mentioned in the Roper Book and the rt description is pretty vague at best."Nail or free climb 250 feet..." The bolt is in the Meyers Greeen 8.5 x 11" guide and that came out in the early 70's. Meyers Guide also shows a bolt on the 1st pitch of Outer Limits, hmmmmmmmmmmm maybe that should be replaced.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 25, 2005 - 06:00pm PT
When folks lead the route with pins, I dout there was
much need for a bolt. I'd suspect that the bolt was
added shortly after the route went clean--it's pretty
hard to get solid nut placements in the scars.

Even if you have all the trick gear, the pro is pretty
sketchy (unless you're really good at placing trad gear).
I see the elegance of cracks without bolts, but the
bolt on Serinity seemed to serve a pretty good purpose.

I haven't done it for a while; I assume the bolt was
fairly new (and that it didn't break off in a fall?).

:- k
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 25, 2005 - 06:05pm PT
Me: "Who drilled that ugly POS on Midnight Lightning??"

Werner: " Oh! ..... too bad, ...... the rock is God?"

Interesting response. Naw, I suppose the rock ain't God. And anybody is pretty much free to drill where ever they want. Still, I think that drilling a bolt at chest height on Midnight Lightning is pretty ghetto.


Not that I plan to climb the thing in this version of my life .. .. ..

:- k
mynameismud

climber
backseat
Oct 25, 2005 - 07:09pm PT
I say leave the bolt gone. 25 years ago it was needed. With modern gear both passive and active it just is not needed.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Oct 25, 2005 - 07:17pm PT
Greg asked how to contact Tom Higgins. He is around and posts to this forum sometimes:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=47635#msg102668

Glen Denny is also around. He lives in San Francisco. I can give you his address and phone number, Greg.
Greg Barnes

climber
Oct 25, 2005 - 07:58pm PT
Cool Clint!

Could you email me Denny's info?

Greg
mikael

Trad climber
Sunnyvale, CA
Oct 25, 2005 - 09:44pm PT

Either I, my partner and the other team on the route all missed 'em, or the bolts promised as an anchor at the bottom of the first 5.7 crack on Super Slide are also gone. This was Sunday.

Not a big deal, big ledge and a good, but thin, crack to build my own anchor. It's just that searching for a non existant anchor wasn't a fun start to my first 5.8 lead.

-mikael
Greg Barnes

climber
Oct 25, 2005 - 10:08pm PT
When we replaced bolts on Super Slide in '99 there were no bolts there (or we missed seeing them), first bolts were on top of the third pitch.

Greg
Superhomo

Social climber
SF - Where else?
Oct 25, 2005 - 11:11pm PT
I give this person a personal "SuperHomo" signed plaque complete is dried jizz and the like.

I mean WTF! Really who cares??? I often see bolts and ponder why this is next to a crack. Usually this is at Red Rocks where trad climbing can be more like sprad climbing. A mixture of trad and sport. Just in case you get lost following the crack, clip the shiney things. I'd rather climb than waste time chopping.

I say - chopping is more ugly than shiney hangers....

Cheers

SuperHomo
Caddy

climber
DC
Oct 26, 2005 - 07:15pm PT
Guy Graening and I climbed Serenity on Monday. I led the first pitch expecting a bolt and was taken by surprise that it was not there. I was able to place a yellow alien with only two cam lobes making solid contact. I was faceing a ground fall onto blocks if I fell. Also it looked as if someone chopped 3 fixed pins higher on the route. I'd like to talk to the person who removed the bolt so I can thank him with my fist.

Greg Barnes

climber
Oct 26, 2005 - 07:43pm PT
The bolt in question is NOT original.

Tom Higgins just replied to me and said there was definitely no bolt there when he did the first free ascent.

There are a good number of bolts that were not original all over the Valley (and many other places), and while some are justified (eg. to prevent a tree from being wrecked or a crack at a heavily used anchor from being destroyed by decades of replacement pitons), I think the bar should be set pretty high for added bolts, even if the bolts have now been there for 30 years.
WBraun

climber
Oct 26, 2005 - 08:03pm PT
Greg

What a nightmare rock climbing has become .........

Or should I say what a nightmare we've become?
sleepydawg

Trad climber
Layton, Utah
Oct 26, 2005 - 08:16pm PT
So bolts were not there, but nailing pins were. Hmmm. My son has wanted to lead the crack since I told him about my ascent before his birth. Do you guys mind if I nail the first pitch, avoiding any bolts, so he can lead it safely? A generation ago the decision was made to place a bolt so we would not have to use pins (which I bet Higgins used in the FFA). This has not been a R or X route until now, just a fun crack. Why don't we keep it that way.
In all seriousness guys, will chopping the bolt lead to more people placing pins to protect the lower part, or can you really place good pro? It seemed like a dished out seam when I did it a while back.
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Oct 26, 2005 - 08:26pm PT
You didn't find the first bolt 30 feet up R? It felt like a stretch that you ought to lead when you were ready to do so w/o falling before the bolt got chopped...My definition of R anyway. Doesn't seem like it will be any different now. The only way to guaruntee your son's safety is to make him top rope the pitch.

I'm ambivalent about that bolt. I'd happily clip it if it was there. I don't think it's going to impact anyone that much not being there. I don't remember any pins on the route? Where were they?
sleepydawg

Trad climber
Layton, Utah
Oct 26, 2005 - 08:42pm PT
It used to be an aid crack. The whole thing was nailed and then the pins were removed. Thats why you have the holes in the rock. Thats why you can free climb it...but the free climb is not because the rock has somehow been returned to its pristine condition. So let me summarise this arguement.
The bolt was placed there to help climbers not use pins.
We chopped the bolt because we want the climb to return to its orginal condition.
But the orginal condition was ugly pin scars that were placed there by climbers using pins.
And now we can use pins again, because they were used by the FA party.
But we want to limit the use of pins, so we put in a bolt again,
Or provide free aliens to any aliens of the valley.
Did I get this right?
Melissa

Gym climber
berkeley, ca
Oct 26, 2005 - 08:45pm PT
No...Mostly it gets climb it with our hands and feet now (not pins as was the case when it was an aid crack)...or with hands, feet, and rope tension from above. I'll stick by my original assertion that if you end up needing that bolt, you're too sketch to be very safe climbing that pitch in the first place. Pin it out more if you want. That's the glory that your son is going to see on that first pitch anyway.
sleepydawg

Trad climber
Layton, Utah
Oct 26, 2005 - 08:50pm PT
Melissa,
I wasn't making fun of you, just this arguement seems a bit circular to me. I won't be placing pins in anything except big walls, and some practice cracks here in Utah.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Oct 26, 2005 - 09:16pm PT
"the bolt attracts 'the wrong climbers.' "

I guess I knows what that means, but let me see if I get
it right. People who can climb .10+ but don't want to
lead 5.9 R.

The points been made, the route is 5.9 R with or without
the bolt. Now it's just more evident (and a bit more R).

Let's start a pool--does the bolt:

1) not get replaced
2) get replaced before a ledge-out
3) get replaced after the first ledge-out
4) get replaced after more than one ledge-out

I don't think the odds are very good for #1.

:- k
Old&InTheWay

Trad climber
Oct 27, 2005 - 12:26am PT
I climbed Serenity in 91 and got a good tricam somewhere before the bolt. Again in 2002 following that pitch I noticed several placements that looked good enough for an alien or alien hybrid. These days climbers have the gear technology to continue the evolution of clean climbing, the kind Doug Robinson wrote about. I think we should continue that tradition. If the natural gear is good enough, the bolt is not necessary and should not be replaced regardless of how much of a trade route Serenity has become. Aliens are no longer special gear and apparently the route is getting done without the bolt. Maybe a group of locals needs to go up there, determine how good that natural gear really is so you can decide what to do. That'd be more reasonable than trying to make the decision on this forum.
-Bruce
Dog

climber
Oct 27, 2005 - 10:34am PT
As it has been said,
Yes, the bolt has been chopped. It also has been said that a good piece can be put in below the bolt.What, 3 or 4 feet below. Offset, Alien or whatever. I mean, without any disrespect to those of lesser ability, relax, this is low angle, huge pin scar pockets that we are talking about here. Not an R or X rating scarefest!

I never understood the reason for the bolt in the first place. Has it been said why and when it was placed in the first place?

This thread reminds me of the storm that was created when the bolt was chopped on the Nutcracker. Belay before the mantle.
KarlP

Social climber
Queensland, NorCal, Iceland
Oct 27, 2005 - 10:58am PT
You disappoint me dingus.

Where do I send my cheques to be allowed to climb in YOUR little playground?
Trashman

Trad climber
SLC
Oct 27, 2005 - 11:20am PT
"free aliens"

i like that, i'm tired of this elitest gear stuff too. could somebody plz bolt Super crack. i don't think it's fair that i have to have 7 #3 camalots to lead it, it's just too durn'd expenseive
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