Drilling on the Hot Rod?

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Huge Balls

Big Wall climber

Darkside of the Moon

Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 15, 2005 - 10:34pm PT

Just talked to friend of mine and was told that Todd Skinner is Drilling all over "Jesus built my Hot Rod" so he can "pink point" another Yosemite bigwall. I guess all you so-called badass freeclimbers are not as "Rad" as you would like to think you are.
"Rad" would be to go up there with a hammer and some pins and freeclimb the route while nailing on lead.

akclimber

Trad climber

Eagle River, AK

Oct 16, 2005 - 12:05am PT

Hey, dinkydick. Shut up. If you had such "huge" balls you would face Todd personally. You won't because Todd would kick your scrawny ass.

Huge Balls

Big Wall climber

Darkside of the Moon

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2005 - 12:31am PT

So the harder the Ape pounds his chest determines whether or not he can DRILL all over an established route? Where are your ethics man. Thank F*#kin Christ that you don't climb in the vally. It's like I told Skinner before, your lightweight for drilling on the Dihedral Wall, your lightweight for drilling on Spire it up, your lightweight for DRILLING on established routes. F*#KING LIGHT DUTY!!

elcapfool

Big Wall climber

hiding in plain sight

Oct 16, 2005 - 07:42am PT

On behalf of big wall climbers everywhere I say at the top of my lungs, "FVCK TODD SKINNER!"
The guy is a self promoting A-hole, and if I didn't live 3000 miles away, I'd got to the Valley today and pick a fight with him.
Bolts are for FA's. Anything else is lame.

Shack

Big Wall climber

So. Cal.

Oct 16, 2005 - 02:38pm PT

So is any line fair game to bolt up as long as your trying to free climb it?

Please advise.

Next thing you know, routes will look like gym walls...
"the bolts with the blue tape are for free climbers....and the rivits with the
red tape are for aid,"

deuce4

Big Wall climber

the Southwest

Oct 16, 2005 - 03:27pm PT

Being not necessarily opposed to adding anchors for free routes in general, the thing that gets me, as anyone who has ever been to one of Todd's slideshows, is that he tends to get people fired up against the "aid climbers," inferring that they have no talent and that they use drilled anchors and other dubious means to get their fat asses up the stones. At least that seemed like one of the sub-themes of a show I saw way back when when he was promoting the Salathe ascent.

Overall, he's a truly genuine guy though, and if it weren't for the way he (and Piana) tended to minimize big wall aid climbing while promoting their new "free" style, I wouldn't have anything to say here. Maybe they've gotten past that petty stuff.

An article written by Smoot (I think it was Jeff Smoot) back in the 80's called the "Valley Syndrome" typified this type of deprecation of others to make themselves look good by contrast. The claim in the article was that nothing was happening of note in the valley until Todd came in and freed the Stigma over a period of months in a style that was, by Valley standards, remarkably poor. Meanwhile bold 5.12 routes were getting done all over by Bachar, Cosgrove, Schultz, and others.

Jaybro

Social climber

The West

Oct 16, 2005 - 03:44pm PT

Once upon a time, somewhere close to where you are right now, there was a climber; a 'Good Guy' you would like him if you met him, I do. He had many skills, the least of which made him a Very good free climber, He had his own ideas about how things should be done, and was never shy about doing what he wanted, despite local mores, and how it might, sometimes irrevocably, effect those playing a different game. He always gets away with it. Far from kicking anybody's ass, he gets them to feel bad about disagreeing with him.

There are skills beyond the onsight.

Huge Balls

Big Wall climber

Darkside of the Moon

Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2005 - 04:32pm PT

If you can't F*#king climb the route, Stay off of it!!

climber

NOT Fresno

Oct 16, 2005 - 09:52pm PT

Here's the modern standard: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=99464&f=210&b=0

Anything less, yes, is light.

ToddSkinner

Big Wall climber

Yosemite

Oct 16, 2005 - 10:14pm PT

Thanks for ak telling me about this thread. If anybody has a problem with what I am doing, take it up with me in person. Don't lob darts from the darkness of anonymity. When people are jealous of one's accomplishments, they tend to show it in childish ways. Ask Piana about our ascent of 4th of July Crack in Vedauwoo, WY. Pretty sparse gear placements. And that was just the beginning of the hard FFA that didn't require bolts. You people need to back off and chill out.

P.S. Same thing with Never-Never in Leavenworth in '83. Ditto Gunfighter, etc. etc. If you people are going to whine about what I am doing after the standards I have set, well, I am not exactly sure why I am responding to you.

WBraun

climber

Oct 16, 2005 - 10:25pm PT

What makes you think anyone is jealous?

Is it because you really feel that you've made a statement in your life that effects others?

climber

NOT Fresno

Oct 16, 2005 - 10:34pm PT

ak ♥ Todd

Loom

climber

167 stinking feet above seal level : (

Oct 16, 2005 - 11:30pm PT

Todd,

Sounds like good work in Vedauwoo, etc., but what's going on in Yos. Are you adding bolts to JBMHR, an established line, or not?

If so then I have a problem with what you are doing. Respect for the FA (no, not worship of FAists) works. I don't own the rock, you don't own it, and the original FAist doesn't own it, but it's either respect for the FA bolt count, or a chaotic any-thing-goes, or having the NPS, FS, BLM, etc. decide. Whether it's retroing or adding bolts to free an aid line some of us will not "back off" or "chill out."

While it is true that when people are jealous of other's accomplishments they can behave in childish ways, it is also true that when people are egotistical and desire attention they can justify just about anything to themselves. Egoists also tend to think that everyone is jealous of them.

I don't care what anyone does somewhere in the mountains as long as it won't affect me if or when I visit that locale. I don't want to control anyone's climbing, only some of the bolting. If you want to hang a sling 20' down from an established anchor so you can say you've freed it anchor to anchor, I might shake my head over such shenanigans, but I will "back off and chill out." But if you think that freeing is a higher form than aiding, and you resent that so many beautiful lines (especially in The Valley) have already been climbed by "lesser men", and you know that only a big FFA in Yos will get the kind of press that an FFA in Yos will get, and you think that because of all of this you are therefore justified in adding a bolt here or there to an established line, well then I'll have to call bullsh;t.

Scott Lennox

JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber

Chatsworth

Oct 17, 2005 - 02:05am PT

Can we not all get along.

Why are you destroying an aid line so early in its history?

Juan

poop_tube

Trad climber

Irvine, CA

Oct 17, 2005 - 05:35am PT

I believe it all depends on what climbing means to you. Climbing is no longer what it was once. Sticky rubber once thought to be cheating now is the norm. Other technologies, such as screamers, change A3 and higher ratings. (Athough I have never done very hard aid and I do confess to using screamers) Bolts are perhaps the greatest reduction in difficulty. My perspective on using specific tools for climbing, namely bolts, has changed.

I regard Todd highly and his free climbing abilities are awesome, but it’s the mountaineers of the old that truly inspire me. Walter Bonatti was the greatest climber of all time.

“I took with me just 35 normal pitons (which were primitive and heavy because I had made most of them myself out of an iron bar). The remainder of my gear consisted of 25 iron carabiners, 2 wooden wedges, and two 100 ft ropes of hard twisted hemp (the same type used long ago by Emil Solleder, the pioneer of the Grade VI climb). Finally there were 3 stirrups, actually consisting of short lengths of bare hemp rope knotted to form 3 or 4 loops into which feet could be inserted as was normal practice before the war…It is true that true that more rational equipment of nylon and light metals had already made an appearance in those days, but I voluntarily ignored it.”

“Let us go back to those days of in the fifties when spits first appeared in mountaineering circles, and people started to use them more frequently. I believe it was then that the great technical degradation of alpinism began.

Using this type of piton (which demands a preliminary drill hole in the rock and is characteristic to the whole business) is to employ a tool that, unlike a normal piton, cancels the impossible. And it therefore cancels adventure. One might say it is tantamount to cheating in a game one has chosen to play voluntarily. By acting in this way, one no longer conquers the impossible but eliminates it. The motivation to confront the impossible and test one’s mettle against it is destroyed. Insight is no longer required, nor is judgment.

The use of spits destroys the commitment and the emotional response of traditional alpinism. With expansion bolts the intelligent search for a logical route is bypassed and one loses the critical assessment of difficulty. The terms ‘paragon’ and ‘standard’ become invalid. What emerges is a degenerated, sterile ascent, LITTLE MORE THAN AN ATHLETIC FEAT. As such, it is a convenient and easy way to achieve success—but, judged from a traditional standpoint, obtained by a hoax. What follows is a self-deception and a confidence trick played on the good faith of those who follow our exploits and derive meaning for them, but do not know the facts.”

-Walter Bonatti, The Mountains of My Life

The first part was regarding his first ascent of the East Face of the Grand Capucin. The second is from “The Bonatti Pillar.”

The part I would like to point out here is where Bonatti describes bolts as reducing mountaineering to merely an athletic feat. No doubt that free climbing is hard, but it gets to a point where it is more closely related to gymnastics. To me, true climbing is where achievements have been made by more than just physical feats. By using what the rock has to offer and accepting risks associated with mountaineering is where boundaries are pushed. To face uncertainty and showing courage in life threatening situations and being bold by staring danger straight in the face is where true climbing lies.

Many lines were created with these situations. Ingenuity and skill pushed what was possible. Bolts kill it!

I am early in my climbing days but one thing that amazes me is seeing bolts places that they clearly do not need to be. I see this on walls especially. Maybe it’s just because I am still just doing “trade routes,” but too often I finish a pitch, get to a belay and see 4 friggin bolts right next to a bomber crack! What the f*#k! Sure the bolts make things easier, but is that what it’s supposed to be? It’s unnecessary. But I digress.

Doing a free ascent is rad for sure. But when bolts come to play to get it to go free, my respect changes. It degrades the routes from a true test of courage and skill to a gymnastic feat. Free ascents like that one French dude that just climbed on Yosemite Falls taking whippers on copperheads, is truly inspirational. I’ve also heard about a free ascent of an A4 line that involved very runnout 5.12 climbing. No additional pro added. Now that is more than an athletic feat. But maybe bringing climbing to mere athletics is what people want? But this cannot be without a cost.

Maybe drilling Hot Rod is no big deal. So what if the climb is no longer as dangerous and challenging to those that will follow to aid it. Consequently, it will be traveled more often.

Every time I go climbing I am amazed at just how many climbers there are. More surprisingly, is just how many do not know what they are doing. But it’s ok, they are hanging on bomber 3/8 inch bolts. Nights in the cliffs of Yosemite is filled with the sounds of people clanking metal and cursing from people trying to figure out for an hour how to set up their portaledege. Or a slow moving party unable to hit the bivi ledge in time cursing over too much rope drag. People piss off the ledge right onto your face and drop gear onto your head. But this is the price we pay for adding bolts that makes climbs more accessible to the masses.

Hot Rod will soon be an easier aid line with more bolts and the crowds of people will not be deterred by the West Face route being too crowded. They’ll just consider the alternative Hot Rod.

Todd, you are an influential climber no doubt but I ask you to please consider the impacts you may make. I have a great deal of respect for you and your ascents. Your ascent of Salathe was indeed spectacular and opened eyes to possibilities. And I cannot even begin to fathom what you have gone through on Baffin Island or Pakistan. So I can understand your desire to earn the title of the first all free ascent of Yosemite’s steepest cliff. It will look good for sponsors. But please consider the cost of bolts and the direction it takes climbing. Some may call free ascents as setting a new standard, but I feel that adding bolts destroys the true meaning of climbing and bringing the element of risk down to zero, where I don’t believe it is climbing any longer.

If all that is left for the future of climbing is setting NEW standards then it deeply saddens me that mountaineering has come to this. I see measuring your way of climbing to others as degrading to the mounatain and disrespectful (not to mention egotistical) to other astonishing and heroic ascents.

I sometimes wonder what the world of mountaineering would be if no bolts were ever added. It would be a more pure and adventurous with proper respect to the mountain. But it’s too late for such dreaming and some sweet lines would never happen without bolts. Still I can’t help but think what could have been.

Climb on,

Kia Ravanfar

PS: My roommate Jacob Goldsmith saw this and told me to say that you are a pussy, cuz Leaning Tower is so overhanging that your falls would be clean anyway.

Lambone

Ice climber

Ashland, Or

Oct 17, 2005 - 06:23am PT

Hey Todd Skinner, please stop duming down hard aid climbs to your level.

BASE104

climber

An Oil Field

Oct 17, 2005 - 10:56am PT

Say what you want about aid climbers, but the best of them don't pull a crux with a bolt at their face.

G_Gnome

Trad climber

Oct 17, 2005 - 12:56pm PT

So does this mean that Todd used to be a hardcore free climber but now is a sport climbing weenie? Don't spout 20 year old achievements at us, let's talk about what you are doing wrong now!

wildone

climber

right near the beach, boyeee (lord have mercy)

Oct 17, 2005 - 01:05pm PT

...if it was even him who posted that...
chill the fu(k out you guys, it was probably zero ouch...

JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber

Chatsworth

Oct 17, 2005 - 01:28pm PT

Todd Skinner Love Fest!

Juan

JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber

Chatsworth

Oct 17, 2005 - 01:31pm PT

Maybe this is a big Hoax?

Juanito

ToddSkinner

Big Wall climber

Yosemite

Oct 17, 2005 - 03:39pm PT

When you guys actually get up on the route and can intelligently discuss what I have actually done, then we'll talk. Until then it is a lot of hot air being spewed about.

I suppose using a torch to burn off the grease on City Park wasn't acceptable, huh? Too bad.

Shack

Big Wall climber

So. Cal.

Oct 17, 2005 - 03:40pm PT

What would Klaus say?

Melissa

Gym climber

berkeley, ca

Oct 17, 2005 - 03:54pm PT

Lambone sez,

"Hey Todd Skinner, please stop duming down hard aid climbs to your level."

Now that's funny.

shitzy

Gym climber

La Playa

Oct 17, 2005 - 04:20pm PT

Let's have everyone on this thread stand up, raise their right hand, and swear upon something they deem personally important, the following shitz:

"I have never manufactured a hold, or intentionally changed the natural features of a rock in any way to make a climb go easier or be less painfull"

Big name climbers get to go 1st.

John Vawter

Social climber

San Diego

Oct 17, 2005 - 04:31pm PT

I am no fan of Todd Skinner. But how is this different than the Nose, or the Muir? OK, one difference is that Hot Rod is much harder aid. But as Todd points out, do you know that he is placing bolts in a way that would dumb down the hard aid? If not, who cares?

But if the bolts change the nature of the aid route, that is more problematic. Should Todd have gotten permission from the FA first? I doubt that Kurt and Coz had any discussions with Chouinard and TM. Or is it fair game because long free routes are the future and take priority over aid routes?

Based on the little info I have, I tend to agree with Juanito: this route hasn't been up long enough to turn into a sport climb without permission of the FA.

Light&Fast!!!

climber

calgary

Oct 17, 2005 - 04:38pm PT

Oh my god if that really is Todd Skinner he is pretty pathetic! Fake Todd needs to die... and if that is the real Todd well, what a chump in his justification for his actions.

Klaus already gave his opinion on the last jerk to go drilling on the route. Check the route beta thingy.

Shack

Big Wall climber

So. Cal.

Oct 17, 2005 - 04:42pm PT

I hope it's a troll Mike.
Otherwise I'll have to change my name from Todd S. to something else!

billygoat

climber

Oct 17, 2005 - 05:46pm PT

When Ray Jardine went too far askew from valley ethics, there was no question about what had to be done. Ray was shown the way out of the valley, and it was made clear he wasn't going back. I can't speak entirely for JBMHR, but I have climbed Wet Denim and can tell you that the retro-bolting there was questionable in the least and unacceptable is more likely. In conversations with Rob Miller, I've learned that there is no way to climb JBMHR, add bolts, and not destroy the aide line. Rob told me that he's backed off of his free attempts on JBMHR because he didn't want to climb so hard above such marginal protection. In other words, Mr Miller is adhering to valley ethics. Now Todd (assuming you have added bolts to this line), what gives you the right to climb under a different set of ethics on a line being attempted by multiple parties who respect a previously determined standard of free climbing? I think, given your past history, you at least owe us an answer to this question. Furthermore, if you have placed these bolts, perhaps the valley community of climbers should consider this a final straw and show you the way back to Wyoming.

426

Sport climber

Wartburg, TN

Oct 17, 2005 - 06:04pm PT

dear billygoat and others,

I could not seem to find "Valley Ethics" guide on this Supertopo sight. Please send a copy of the 'revised' Valley Ethics guide to me, for I am curious what they are.

426
General Delivery
Wartburg, TN 67931

PS-Warren Harding called, sez to watch out for the VC's.

Shack

Big Wall climber

So. Cal.

Oct 17, 2005 - 06:08pm PT

I don't have an extra copy of the Valley Ethics Guide,
but please don't climb in Yosemite until you get one and read it from cover to cover.

Ditch Trad

Trad climber

Oct 17, 2005 - 06:45pm PT

Anyone got a spare copy for the bro?

I don't think so...

While we are splitting hairs, maybe we ought to ban 2nd, 3rd and so on ascents because they make the pin scars bigger, hence easier for later parties...

I'm more of a Harding man rather than Robbins fellow...

Sylistically though, I've got to go with free climbing over aid...perhaps that's the "miff" issue here for some, eh?....

426

Sport climber

Wartburg, TN

Oct 17, 2005 - 07:02pm PT

Mike-respectfully disagree with your assessment.

What did Harding say after Robbins chopped 1/3 of WEML? (Shrugs). I think that was about it.

I'll have to confirm with my copy of Downward Bound.

Light&Fast!!!

climber

calgary

Oct 17, 2005 - 07:24pm PT

Bolts, everyone has an issue with them! They love them, they hate them. So many people claim to be a trad climber and hate sport climbing. Many alpine climbers hate bolts. Most people with respect for those before them don't like added bolts. Sitting here and bitching about it doesn't do shit! You want to make a statement, go cut fixed ropes he's using, chop the bolts. DO SOMETHING!!!

I've chopped my share of bolts, I've placed my share of bolts.

JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber

Chatsworth

Oct 17, 2005 - 07:45pm PT

I have a real problem with the name of the route. Can it by changed to Buhhda built my Hot Rod?

And does the Muir have new belay bolts in the nice corner above grey. Thats weak!

Juanito