Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
andy@climbingmoab
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Feb 17, 2010 - 08:15pm PT
|
Yup, just like Cuba after the Bay of Pigs. Oh wait...
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Feb 17, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
|
Yup, just like Cuba after the Bay of Pigs. Oh wait...
I'm curious what Andy would do in this case if he were in charge....
|
|
Forest
Trad climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Feb 17, 2010 - 08:21pm PT
|
Fatty, i think you forgot that our military and our defense budget are already occupied elsewhere. Cleaning up those messes that your guy created.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Feb 17, 2010 - 08:25pm PT
|
If we did anything military it would just give Chavez the chance to deflect blame from himself and direct it toward the U.S.
Chavez would like that, which is why he's practically asking for a good, First-World, Superpower Thrashing.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2010 - 11:26pm PT
|
Any solution for Venezuela must almost certainly come from within. The country may well have to melt down, and I mean way down, before a true transformation takes place.
Many get lost in all the personality foibles (gran narcissism) and daft socicalist bunkum Chavez spews (don't give him a microphone or he'll be on it for like eight hours - no shite), but the more immediate threat might be the impending threat of a true energy crisis. There are already rolling blackouts and no water in major cities, sometimes for days at a time. My oldest daughter is down there righ now and she said, "It's like Africa."
JL
|
|
andy@climbingmoab
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2010 - 10:35am PT
|
bluering, i'd let the Venezuelans sort it out themselves. They will eventually. US intervention has done nothing positive in Latin America, and has made a lot of situations a whole lot worse. I've spent a lot of time in nearly every country in Central and South America, and from that i've figured out that what works here won't work there and vice versa.
I've also figured out that if Chile can sort out a political disaster largely created by the USA, perhaps the rest of Latin America can sort out their own problems without our help.
|
|
blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2010 - 10:59am PT
|
Andy, I'm sure you know a lot about it from being there, but that doesn't mean your ideas are right.
Here's another way to look at it: I'm sure there lots of other people who spent just as much time in South America who would recommend the opposite of what you recommend.
So which one of you is right?
Fattrad may be on to something, I don't know.
|
|
JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
|
We have the technology to kill anyone from above with drones.
Why do we not just start the killing - Iran, Venezuela, France.
Juan
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2010 - 04:20pm PT
|
For those who say that it's none of our business, what do you think our State Dept is for?
Who do you think will be expected to aid the country when the sh#t really hits the fan? Cuba? riiight...
It's not always a matter of 'do nothing' or 'bombs' either.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Feb 18, 2010 - 04:30pm PT
|
Well, if the measure for intervention is governmental deadlock, absurd political rhetoric, an unsustainable and unjust economy, social inequity, and human rights violations, then the state department and military should start with the U.S.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 18, 2010 - 11:01pm PT
|
I have heard it said that Iraq was basically the last time you will ever see an invasion of any kind of scale. This price is too high, and apparently no one at any think tank can fugure out any possible way to do so without bankrupting the country - even if we got ALL of Venezuelas oil.
What's more, the idea of an invasion is moronic. It has never happened between democracies, even fake democries like they have in Ven. And where would we start? Just roll into Caracas and start shooting? Sorties on Margarita Island and Valencia and Barquisimeto? Come on, the idea is preposerous. And none of our business, besides. Why MAKE it our business. That's old school right wing straight old white male thinking, and that's out of style. By all means, let our days of military meddling in South America be over.
Also, I've heard from credible sources that because invasion is no longer a viable option - no matter the "threat" - that the foreign countries know this and understand if things get too crazy out there, our response will be nuclear. For instance, if North Korea got crazy and started threatening everyone, nobody (especially China, says open source intel) is wasting money and men on the place, but they might chuck an a-bomb that way if it came to it. Scary shite.
One of the things that makes the new military strategy sketchy is that now that virtually every expert has ruled out future large scale ground wars as financially impossible, the nuclear response is the only option save actually leaving countries to simply melt down altogether. What will the war hawks suggest once countries start getting surly. Hawks usually swear that the only thing to do is go on the offensive to stop the imagined "threat." Do we go nuclear, now that old style invasion is no longer an option?
JL
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Feb 19, 2010 - 12:31am PT
|
coz, quit trolling fattrad. You look weak, dude. make a point about the subject at hand or STFU.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2010 - 01:03am PT
|
I don't know what you're reading, but there's plans for VZ, it wouldn't cost nearly as much as Iraq/Afghan.
----
I read a lot of open source intel. An American invasion - to anywhere - cannot be sold to congress. Every source says so. Also, how would you conduct one - like I asked, just invade Caracas and start shooting? That would never work. It's not doable.
JL
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
A Spanish judge has accused Chavez of using FARC and ETA to try to assassinate Uribe.
http://www.globovision.com/news.php?nid=141830
Translation
A Spanish judge believes there was "Venezuelan government cooperation" in the collaboration between ETA and the FARC, who were plotting to murder Colombian personalities in Spain, including President Alvaro Uribe, judicial sources said Monday.
Judge Eloy Velasco included in the indictment of six suspected members of ETA and seven of the FARC "show the Venezuelan government involvement in the unlawful collaboration between the FARC and ETA."
Velasco, judge of the Audiencia Nacional (Spanish main criminal tribunal) considers that this is particularly so in the case of suspected ETA member Arturo Cubillas Fontan, one of the defendants.
Cubillas is married since 1990 to the "Venezuelan Lataillade Goizeder Odriozola, who has held public office in the Venezuelan government of President Hugo Chavez, and was appointed in 2005 director within the Office of Management and Services of the Ministry of Agriculture and Venezuela's land," said the court order provided to AFP.
The alleged activist has been "responsible for the ETA group in that part of America since 1999, taking charge of coordinating relations with the FARC and the participation of members of ETA explosives and weapons workshops and dissemination techniques of urban guerrilla terrorist ", said judge Velasco.
Fontan is accused by Judge Velasco, along with members of the FARC Edgar Gustavo Navarro Ramon Vargas Morales and Victor Salazar, the "crime of conspiracy to commit terrorist murder."
Cuban Doctors are suing over slavery
http://english.eluniversal.com/2010/02/22/en_pol_esp_seven-cuban-doctors_22A3470091.shtml
What next?
|
|
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
|
|
I know historical accuracy is frowned upon in these threads, but the Monroe Doctrine is that further European efforts to colonize countries in the western hemisphere would be deemed by the U.S. to be acts of aggression.
The last time it played much prominence was when, coincidentally, Venezuela refused to pay its debts to Germany, believing that Germany would be unable to do any thing about it because of the Monroe Doctrine. Germany called Venezuela's bluff and sent warships. To avert war with Germany, Teddy R added the Roosevelt Corollary to the doctrine, which basically was that dead beat countries could not rely on the U.S. to fend off European forces seeking to collect debts.
|
|
Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
|
|
reading this.. reminds me of home......
its almost like John has seen the future of america:
And that's not mention the great rift between social classes and spending power, Homeric coruption, a largely self-absorbed and apathetic population, instutions that have been handed over to incompetants, grifters and slackers - and now the power is starting to go out (rolling black outs), the water is on and off, the banking sector is melting down, the military and police (mostly under Chavez' control) are starting to get tough with demonstrators, radio and TV stations are being shut down and on and on and on.
Something's got to give pretty soon.
|
|
Binks
Social climber
|
|
I'm no fan of Chavez, but if you right wingers want another war, raise taxes to pay for it. No more "war now pay later" crap. Say, a 50% tax increase on the highest tax bracket. I'd bet your militant idealogy can't even exist without massive deficit spending and robbing of the tax payers. The unpopularity of the wars would skyrocket so high it would be impossible if you make the people pay as you go. You'd better be happy with the massive heist of tax payer dollars you already pulled in Iraq and Afghanistan.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!