Discussion Topic |
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 29, 2010 - 02:27am PT
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caracasgringo.wordpress.com
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 29, 2010 - 02:33am PT
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The article is not exactly BBC-quality journalism, and it's hard to tell, from thousands of miles away, how representative it is of what's really happening.
What do you make of it?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 03:02am PT
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It's not journalism at all - wrong vehicle - rather Caracas Gringo is a blogger, meaning he approaches material with a certain slant. His sources are extremely reliable and he's generally well informed though decidedly anti-Chavez.
This situation in Venezuela is presently grave and the bottom may fall out of the Boliviaran Socialist experiment. The power is already starting to go out along with the water. Airports are largely empty anhd students are marching.
Could get ugly soon, but I hope not.
More later.
JL
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gonzo chemist
climber
the Twilight Zone of someone else's intentions
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Jan 29, 2010 - 03:05am PT
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time to move to Panama...
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 03:26am PT
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The Mexicans that I work with were asking me just today what I knew about what was happening in Venezuela. I told them it is a little strange that our media barely covers it. Or is it strange? It's all over the Hispanic media in this country. I have heard that Chavez recently blamed the earthquake in Haiti on U.S. advanced technology. Who knows. I guess I should set up my short-wave and listen in to the world.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 03:34am PT
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Chavez recently blamed the earthquake in Haiti on U.S. advanced technology. This would be a perfect time for a photo out of that old Bond film where the bad guys were going to set off the San Andreas fault under San Francisco somehow...or is my memory from middle school days a bit off?
You can tell I'm a hard-core Bond fan, can't you...
PS Hope things get resolved in a reasonable, or at least bloodless, fashion...
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 09:33am PT
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Chavez did, in fact, blame the Haiti quake on a U.S. weapons system that he alleges can cause such quakes. I wonder why we chose Haiti?
If you fire up your shortwave receiver (I'm listening to mine [Radio Australia] as I type), I'm afraid you'll find the BBC less than a model of objectivity -- and you certainly won't find out what's going on from official Venezuelan radio. The only easily-received English-language broadcasts from Caribbean countries is Radio Havana Cuba. It serves a useful purpose (to remind us of what Communist propaganda sounds like) but lacks a certain, um, truthfulness. Better to listen to the Spanish-language broadcasts in the U.S. (assuming you understand Spanish).
John
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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Jan 29, 2010 - 10:53am PT
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not sure the article sells me on the "Blood" they mention...
Seems to me that Chavez is calling for radical mesures..
his precice verds:
“I warn, make no mistake, that the response that I would command would be radical at the hour that these sectors manage to or continue machine gunning guards, sending youths to throw rocks at garrisons, calling for rebellion openly…keep going as you are, and you will see… I come almost from the grave, almost from death (after the coup of 2002) due to weakness and I saw dead persons here in front due to the weakness of a goverbment that I was leading, that will not happen again… If they continue along this path they will force me to make radical decisions.”
Because of the fact that this is a blog right off means its got the slant of one person, and could be total poppycock...
but I don't doubt we're getting some of the story...
I know Chavez is seen as somewhat of a radical... so far in his presidency has he gassed his people?
IDK.. .
maybe I lack all knowledge on Venezuela... but I don't think its at the melting point yet...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 11:15am PT
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so far in his presidency has he gassed his people?
What, you think he hasn't rounded up more than a few
and thrown away the key?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 29, 2010 - 11:27am PT
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I told them it is a little strange that our media barely covers it. Or is it strange?
It is strange that there are no news aggregator /translator sites that I know of for Latin America. There are plenty for SW Asia and the Middle East. (does anyone know of any?)
It's easier to find out what's on the police blotter in Bangaladesh or Nepal than Mexico it seems.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 11:57am PT
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This would be a perfect time for a photo out of that old Bond film where the bad guys were going to set off the San Andreas fault under San Francisco somehow...or is my memory from middle school days a bit off?
You can tell I'm a hard-core Bond fan, can't you...
PS Hope things get resolved in a reasonable, or at least bloodless, fashion...
Lex Luthor was also going to nuke the SA Fault in the first Superman movie so he could have more beach front propoerty to sell.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Jan 29, 2010 - 12:24pm PT
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I admit I am almost completely clueless on the Venezuala situation. What I understand is that the land seems to hold oil fields, and that Chavas has been protective of these fields.
Is there possibility that the breakdown is being fueled intentionally, in order to destabilize and then come in to plunder amongst the chaos?
Since Fats already made this thread tainted with his "will Obama learn" post, I don't feel too bad asking this question. I'm not trying to troll; the concept simply occurred to me and I am wondering(while being a lazy bum and not researching on my own).
At any rate, I don't like hearing that people are rioting anywhere - why must it be that power corrupts so often? (that, no matter who is involved. When people are to the stage of rioting and demonstrating, it's not because they are bored).
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 12:25pm PT
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What makes Venezuela so interesting is that you have an almost unheard of situation these days (outside of Africa), where military man (El Presidente/Lt. Colonel Hugo Chavez) is running a country; where a charismatic autocrate is trying to impose an economic system (radical socialism) which history has shown has bankrupted every nation who has ever tried it; in a place where the oil revenues are in the billions a month; in a country where many tens of thousands of people were American and European educated, so you have an intelligensia who can report, witha hig degree of insight, what is going on (in blogs and so forth).
And that's not mention the great rift between social classes and spending power, Homeric coruption, a largely self-absorbed and apathetic population, instutions that have been handed over to incompetants, grifters and slackers - and now the power is starting to go out (rolling black outs), the water is on and off, the banking sector is melting down, the military and police (mostly under Chavez' control) are starting to get tough with demonstrators, radio and TV stations are being shut down and on and on and on.
Something's got to give pretty soon.
JL
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 12:29pm PT
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It is like the proverbial burning paper sack of crap on our
doorstep and I just know we're not going to be able to resist
stomping on it.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 12:33pm PT
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It is like the proverbial burning paper sack of crap on our
doorstep and I just know we're not going to be able to resist
stomping on it.
:-)
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Jan 29, 2010 - 12:36pm PT
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If you want to look at another country where an enormous amount of oil money is mispent by the corrupt few, think Nigeria.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 29, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
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As you may know, John, I've (and some others here have) been paying pretty close attention to Chavez and what he's been doing to that country which you call (second?) home.
I'm not gonna say I told you so, either, because you've been watching it too, shoot, you've been living it! It's a damn shame too because his little experiment is ruining that place. And I feel he'll be hard to unseat from power.
At least Honduras and Chile are going in the opposite direction. Some would say Columbia too.
Hang tough, John!
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
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Pure capitalism is a dangerous as pure socialism. You folks with your fears need to get over it. Our military is a socialist structure, and so is our fire and police departments and most of our roads.
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pc
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:14pm PT
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Good one Moosie.
it's when you add "dictator" to either mix that things start to go haywire. Wonder where all that oil money's going?
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:21pm PT
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Anyone ever hear of the Monroe Doctrine.............US troops in Venezuela by 2011.
Stomp, stomp, stomp.
And I don't see how the Monroe Doctrine applies.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Jan 29, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
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NOTE: This was President James Monroe’s seventh address to Congress. It is significant in that it set forth a policy that the United States would no longer tolerate European colonization of the Americas. The apparent misspellings of the words St. Petersburg, defense, and judgment (among others) reflect the spellings in accordance to the period in which they were written.
December 2, 1823
At the proposal of the Russian Imperial Government, made through the minister of the Emperor residing here, a full power and instructions have been transmitted to the Minister of the United States at St. Petersburgh to arrange, by amicable negotiation, the respective rights and interests of the two nations on the northwest coast of this continent. A similar proposal has been made by His Imperial Majesty to the Government of Great Britain, which has likewise been acceded to. The Government of the United States has been desirous, by this friendly proceeding, of manifesting the great value which they have invariably attached to the friendship of the Emperor, and their solicitude to cultivate the best understanding with his Government. In the discussions to which this interest has given rise, and in the arrangements by which they may terminate the occasion has been judged proper for asserting, as a principle in which the rights and interests of the United States are involved, that the American continents, by the free and independent condition which they have assumed and maintain, are henceforth not to be considered as subjects for future colonization by any European powers....
It was stated at the commencement of the last session that a great effort was then making in Spain and Portugal, to improve the condition of the people of those countries, and that it appeared to be conducted with extraordinary moderation. It need scarcely be remarked, that the result has been, so far, very different from what was then anticipated. Of events in that quarter of the globe, with which we have so much intercourse, and from which we derive our origin, we have always been anxious and interested spectators. The citizens of the United States cherish sentiments the most friendly, in favor of the liberty and happiness of their fellow men on that side of the Atlantic. In the wars of the European powers, in matters relating to themselves, we have never taken any part, nor does it comport with our policy to do so. It is only when our rights are invaded, or seriously menaced, that we resent injuries, or make preparation for our defence. With the movements in this hemisphere, we are, of necessity, more immediately connected, and by causes which must be obvious to all enlightened and impartial observers. The political system of the allied powers is essentially different, in this respect, from that of America. This difference proceeds from that which exists in their respective governments. And to the defence of our own, which has been achieved by the loss of so much blood and treasure, and matured by the wisdom of their most enlightened citizens, and under which we have enjoyed unexampled felicity, this whole nation is devoted. We owe it, therefore, to candor, and to the amicable relations existing between the United States and those powers, to declare, that we should consider any attempt on their part to extend their system to any portion of this hemisphere, as dangerous to our peace and safety. With the existing colonies or dependencies of any European power we have not interfered, and shall not interfere. But with the governments who have declared their independence, and maintained it, and whose independence we have, on great consideration, and on just principles, acknowledged, we could not view any interposition for the purpose of oppressing them, or controlling, in any other manner, their destiny, by any European power in any other light than as the manifestation of an unfriendly disposition towards the United States. In the war between those new governments and Spain we declared our neutrality at the time of their recognition, and to this we have adhered, and shall continue to adhere, provided no change shall occur, which, in the judgement of the competent authorities of this government, shall make a corresponding change, on the part of the United States, indispensable to their security.
The late events in Spain and Portugal, shew that Europe is still unsettled. Of this important fact, no stronger proof can be adduced than that the allied powers should have thought it proper, on any principle satisfactory to themselves, to have interposed, by force, in the internal concerns of Spain. To what extent such interposition may be carried, on the same principle, is a question, to which all independent powers, whose governments differ from theirs, are interested; even those most remote, and surely none more so than the United States. Our policy, in regard to Europe, which was adopted at an early stage of the wars which have so long agitated that quarter of the globe, nevertheless remains the same, which is, not to interfere in the internal concerns of any of its powers; to consider the government de facto as the legitimate government for us; to cultivate friendly relations with it, and to preserve those relations by a frank, firm, and manly policy; meeting, in all instances, the just claims of every power; submitting to injuries from none. But, in regard to these continents, circumstances are eminently and conspicuously different. It is impossible that the allied powers should extend their political system to any portion of either continent, without endangering our peace and happiness: nor can any one believe that our Southern Brethren, if left to themselves, would adopt it of their own accord. It is equally impossible, therefore, that we should behold such interposition, in any form, with indifference. If we look to the comparative strength and resources of Spain and those new governments, and their distance from each other, it must be obvious that she can never subdue them. It is still the true policy of the United States to leave the parties to themselves, in the hope that other powers will pursue the same course.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 02:09pm PT
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Thanks, Largo, for putting these people's plight in front of us.
What I find interesting is the almost total disregard of this story in the American and international MSM. I do a lot of shortwave listening, although the variety and richness of international broadcasting isn't what it used to be, it's still remarkable how little any English-language broadcasts from anywhere except Cuba mention Chavez. I guess our editors think we're capable of absorbing news of only one Latin American country at a time (e.g. Haiti). When Chavez blamed the Haitian earthquake on the American military, virtually no one made much of the story.
One could only imagine the MSM coverage of this kind of corruption and misgovernment from a right-wing regime.
John
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dirtbag
climber
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Jan 29, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
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dirtbag,
You haven't been reading my postings in "C of C" about Iranians visiting Ven and Chavez's visits to Tehran, foreign involvement gets Monroe Doctrine. hey, we could use the oil.
The evil one
Chicken sh#t stuff that's not a monroe doctrine type action. Try again, warmonger.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 29, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
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Funny you mention that JElezarian, remember all the mumbo-jumbo over Honduras? Our State Dept was really involved in condemning the 'right wing' leaders for the supposed 'coup'.
It's seems the Hondurans dodged a bullet thanks to the actions taken by Micheletti, the courts, and Zelaya's own party!!!
A couple days ago I heard that Chavez shut down one of the TV stations that is critical of him. Typical Chavez...
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
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Pure capitalism is a dangerous as pure socialism. You folks with your fears need to get over it.
I agree with this statement. Something in between is probably called for. The problem is that you have fundamantalists that insist that only a pure version of either will ever work. Venezuela and the US are examples of what happens with "pure" versions of both.
However, a pure democratic system is probably our best bet to avoid many of the problems now facing Venezuela, which has been governed for the last eleven years by what amounts to little more than a knock-off Castro. The difference is that Chavez is a military guy posturing as a politician, whereas Castro was an lawyer posing as a soldier. Both Cuba and Venezuela are paying dearly for their charades.
JL
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 29, 2010 - 04:06pm PT
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And what has our country had for leaders recently? A poser posing as a poser, and now a puppet posing as a people's man?
Yep, but we haven't had a genocidal maniac since Andrew Jackson.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2010 - 05:02pm PT
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Dingus wrote: "Well I hope the Chavistas don't come looking for Caracas Gringo nor his family...."
The Chavistas are all over Caracas Gringo and many others but aparently Word Press is pretty unhackable/untraceable. I think Caracas Gringo used to work in intel. Another volatile and interesting source of Ven. info is: Devilsexcrement.wordpress.com
JL
According to Caracas Gringo, his IT warefare outfit is mainly Cubans, but I suspect it's rally just computer savy Ven. kids.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 29, 2010 - 05:17pm PT
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There was a twitter site a few months back with hundreds of photos from the massive anti Chavista demonstrations.
When I did a Google search to try to find them cached or linked most of the sites on the first page had virus bombs and had been identified as corrupted sites.
He evidently has a fairly sophisticated IT warfare group set up to keep a lid on things.
Probably one of the key points of cooperation with Iran.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jan 29, 2010 - 07:53pm PT
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Fattrad: we already have troops in Columbia thanks to your buddy Bush (this was a good investment) and we are still turning the screws abiet (thanks for that work Largo!) gently. You should feel joy that the President didn't throw away all that labor and continues the policy? Do you need a link?
ps, NPR is a CIA mouthpiece, and to those who do not know, we often get more oil from Venezuela than any middle eastern country although currently they are 5th behind Saudi Arabia and Nigeria for the last few months (there's a couple of stable country's...NOT). Canada is #1, Mexico #2 of course, Nigeria is usally behind Venzuela.
Tonight I will drink a toast to the brave men who work for our country in shitholes such as these, so that my country men can continue to drive large SUVs and we can continue to avoid the political unpleasantry of having, or worrying about, an energy policy.
GENTLEMEN! A TOAST!
God bless America and our oil wells these foreigners are sitting on!
Yeeee Haw!!!!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 29, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
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Uh, we have tons of our own oil to 'exploit', taking someone else's is o.k.?
And where the f*#k is all that Iraqi oil??? I know China is taking some.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 03:03pm PT
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The US is no more a capitalist country than Venezuela is a socialist country. Both have the ascribed tendencies, but a tendency is far from reality. And the reality is that both have mixed economies. The US has a liberal democratic federal republican government, with a relatively weak president (yup, really), and in most ways a highly developed economy. Venezuela isn't so far along, and suffers from an overly-strong office of president, whatever the party - as do many countries in Latin America and elsewhere. It also is burdened with significant social problems, the curse/blessing of oil, an underdeveloped economy, and lack of a real balance of powers - although on paper its constitution probably isn't much different from that of the U.S. Venezuela also has the burden of US imperial meddling, usually for economic reasons - starting with the Monroe Doctrine.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 03:27pm PT
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The Canadian and US economies are already inextricably intertwined, something that goes back nearly a century. Yes, we're the #1 exporter of oil and natural gas to the US, and yes, many of the companies are multinationals based in the US. In particular those developing the tar sands in northern Alberta.
Notwithstanding, there are profound cultural, social, and economic differences between Canada and the elephant to the south, and our countries don't always have the same interests. Being an ally doesn't mean being a footstool.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
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Anders makes a good point. Our system is resilient enough to handle incompetents like Bush/Obama. The Venezuelan model, not so much so. Much more fragile.
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful British Columbia
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Jan 30, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
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http://greeninc.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/22/oil-estimates-in-venezuela-doubled/
January 22, 2010, 2:15 pm
Oil Estimates in Venezuela Doubled - 513 billion barrels of heavy oil
Venezuela has long been known to hold some of the world’s biggest deposits of oil sands — thick bituminous resources that require substantial investments and refining methods to develop.
In a new assessment (PDF), government geologists with the United States Geological Survey have provided a dramatic new estimate of how much oil is “technically recoverable” from these oil sands, in an area known as the Orinoco oil belt: 513 billion barrels of heavy oil.
The tally far exceeds previous estimates of around 235 billion barrels, and it represents “the largest accumulation ever assessed” by the U.S.G.S.
The Orinoco is a critical component of Venezuela’s claim to holding the world’s biggest oil reserves, ahead of Saudi Arabia’s 264 billion barrels. But while most of the oil found in the Middle East can be extracted relatively easily through traditional production methods, the Orinoco’s oil sands are tougher to produce.
Saudi officials, meanwhile, claim that their potential resource base far exceeds their official reserves.
Venezuela’s government has outlined grand plans to bring foreign companies, including Chinese and Indian firms, to invest in the region, but it has also been mired in contract disputes with former American partners.
Petroleos de Venezuela, the country’s state-owned company, has estimated that the Orinoco belt held a total resource base of 1.3 trillion barrels of oil, but said only a fraction of that could be produced economically.
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reddirt
climber
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Jan 30, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
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so is it now a good or bad thing to fill up at Citgo stations?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 07:09pm PT
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It is an ignorance and perhaps an arrogance that the rest of the world doesn't seem to be afflicted with.
Maybe you should take your family to Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, or Venezuela then, huh??? Good times!
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful British Columbia
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Jan 30, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
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Think about it, the USGS has just this past week anounced that Venezuela economically recoverable oil reserves are greater than that of Saudia Arabia.
Meanwhile Chavez is headed into a full on civil meltdown.
Interesting times ahead, as usual ....
Plenty of reasons for CIA support of a resistance movement in Venezuela
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Jan 30, 2010 - 07:38pm PT
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Maybe you should take your family to Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, or Venezuela then, huh??? Good times!
You're a big fan of free markets, why don't you head on over to Somalia?
Fun stuff!!!111
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 07:40pm PT
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You're a big fan of free markets, why don't you head on over to Somalia?
Fun stuff!!!111
That's not a free market, dickhead, that's a lack of a market!!!!!
(you know this too, so it's a weak troll at best...T0)
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Jan 30, 2010 - 07:53pm PT
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There is a a market for food, weapons, khat, ships, and many other things.
There is a weak government that cannot regulate that market.
It is a free market, not free from violence or coercion or corruption, but by Republican (and Chicago school) standards it is freer than ours.
You'd be much happier there, really.
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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Jan 30, 2010 - 07:54pm PT
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I heard that George Bush was responsible for the earthquake in Haiti to draw attention away from his failed economic policies. Most of the money directed to disaster relief is being redirected to his political cronies. Where do you think that text message money is going?
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Jan 30, 2010 - 08:07pm PT
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Comparing Tar Sands to the Crude in Saudi is not realistic. There are huge problems associated with getting energy out of tar sands. If I was going to hatch some Machiavellian plot to corner the worlds oil resources I wouldn't be starting with that low grade goop.
Bluering...the US uses about 20 million barrels a day....we produce about 5mbd....all our largest fields are in decline.....do you really think that its a good idea to drain our remaining reserves? For what? ...so that we can piss them away driving around in idiotic gadget filled gas guzzlers?....
We will really need that oil in the future.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 31, 2010 - 01:58am PT
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The entire South American country of 28 million people depends to a large degree on the massive Guri Dam, which holds back the Caroni River in southeastern Bolivar state.
The blackouts are another economic blow after President Chavez devalued the nation's currency by as much as 50 percent on Jan 8 as he struggled with cash flow and a growing budget deficit. The overall economic situation may keep Venezuela mired in recession and erode Chavez's popularity in the run up to legislative elections in September.
"With these measures, we're trying to keep Guri from taking us to a very critical situation at the end of February, from creating let's say a total shutdown of the country," Electricity Minister Angel Rodriguez said on Monday night.
"The drought has exposed what was already a seriously overstretched grid and years of underinvestment," said Patrick Esteruelas, a New York-based analyst at Eurasia Group. "The government is going to try to soften the blow by spending very aggressively from now until voters go to the polls."
Energy experts reject Chavez's claims that the weather phenomenon known as El Nino caused the crisis. They accuse the government of mismanaging the sector, with more than a decade of underinvestment and a failure to maintain existing infrastructure.
Victor Poleo, a former vice-minister for electricity under Chavez, blames corruption for less than a third of the funds assigned to electricity projects reaching their intended destination.
AP-Bloomberg- Financial Times
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 31, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
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Your racism and hate are only trumped by your lack of IQ and ability for rational discussion and thinking.
Scott, maybe before you criticize someone else's IQ, you should check your own. As for Fatty's ability for rational discussion and thinking, see the previous sentence.
John, what's up? Hopefully you got a piece, hunker down. This sh#t will blow over one way or the other...
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gazela
Boulder climber
Albuquerque, NM
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Based on Largo's reports, Venezuela is starting to sound, ominously, like pre-coup Chile in mid-1973. (The big differences are (a) petroleum [and, especially, who controls it], and (b) Hugo Chavez's military connections [something Salvador Allende obviously lacked].) My wife and I were in the Caribbean recently (on a cruise--no jet-setters, we) and visited the island of Tobago, which of course isn't far from the Venezuelan coast. The young man we hired to drive us around the island--very pretty place, by the way--told us that Chavez is trying to extend his influence to neighboring jurisdictions (e.g., Trinidad and Tobago) by selling them oil at extremely low per-barrel prices; thus, gasoline on Tobago costs only about US$1.50/gallon at present. However, he said that all of T&T is wary of Venezuela's political future, and now it's easy to see why.
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rmsusa
Trad climber
Boulder
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So anybody who goes looking for news from VZ can find it. One English Language source is the Miami Herald. Another is repeated columns in the Wall Street Journal. Youtube provides a surprisingly large collection of Chávez pronouncements. It's not surprising that they're in Spanish. For those who can read Spanish, the Venezuelan newspaper "El Universal" is available online. For stuff that isn't covered in the local paper (for fear of nationalization, or complete ban like RCTV) the neighboring countries cover it pretty well. Try "El Tiempo" from Colombia, "El Universal" from Mexico and others.
I do business in VZ. It's definitely melting down. With the latest devaluation, Chávez will make the lives of his biggest supporters, the lower economic classes, even more miserable. The sooner people react to what's happening to their living circumstances, the better. ¡Fuera Chávez, tas pochao!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2010 - 10:44pm PT
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Getting worse. Just talked to my daughter who's presently in my crib in Ven. and she says the electricity is off and on and the water runs only every other day. She's going back to med school in a week for year five and she's hoping the generator is still functioning in the hospital where she works. If not, folks will be dropping like flies.
Last year, at this same (state) hospital, the air con system went down in the morgue - a crucial commodity to be sure - and the administrator couldn't get it together to get the system repaired, this, despite circling the entire hospital with huge billboards of President Chavez, holding babies and extolling the virtues of socialismo. Of course in summer swelter, the facility took on a withering bouquet, and those in charge of attending and dressing the dead didn't want to go anywhere near the morgue save to literally dump off the next dead guy. The bodies started piling up, so many and so fast that at one point they had to stack them like cordwood, and even place some of the deceased in chairs. By now the dead were stiff as teak. Later, come burrying time, and equiped in hazmat suites borrowed from the miliary, they had to "break down" the stiffs to fit them into caskets. That's a true story. The sloth and incompetance introduced and instutionalized by the Chavez regime will, IMHO, take a generation to reverse.
JL
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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That's sad, John. At what point is it okay to overthrow that gov't by force?
I mean it.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Feb 17, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
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I wonder when our State Dept is going to condemn and sanction him? I mean, we were so critical of the legitimate Honduran coup, this strikes me as indefensible for Chavez.
Government seizing businesses and throwing their owners in jail on unspecified charges, where's the outrage?
Stalin is a pretty good analogy.
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andy@climbingmoab
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 17, 2010 - 04:57pm PT
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Comparing Chavez to Stalin is a bit hysterical. It is pretty hard to compete with a guy who had over a million people executed and killed pretty close to the entire population of Venezuela via executions, forced resettlements, and famines.
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 17, 2010 - 05:03pm PT
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Send in other people's children to fight our wars!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 17, 2010 - 05:05pm PT
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Send in Fatty - he looks like a seal. They'd instantly surrender.
Stalin was directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of between 30 and 40 million people, in the civil war, the famines, the purges, and his incompetence in World War II. Chavez is a clumsy and incompetent buffoon, but hardly a Stalin.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Feb 17, 2010 - 05:21pm PT
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Yeah, I suppose you're right. We should wait until he starts murdering masses of people before we compare his tactics/philosophy to Stalin.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 17, 2010 - 05:23pm PT
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but hardly a Stalin
Only because he is
a clumsy and incompetent buffoon
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 17, 2010 - 05:52pm PT
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"Monroe Doctirne"? What a f*#king joke. Fatty already has a throbbing warmonger hard on.
And "Stalin"? He's a thug alright but the righties' tendency to hype bad guys never ceases to amaze me.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 17, 2010 - 05:54pm PT
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Invoke the Monroe Doctrine and dispatch Chavez in three days, the increased efficiency of the oil wells alone would provide more wealth for Venezuela's citizens.
Substitute "Saddam" for "Chavez" and "Iraq" for "Venezuela" and that quote sounds hauntingly familiar, doesn't it.
And after your three easy days of making everything right in VZ, how about holding a press conference on an aircraft carrier with a big "Mission Accomplished" sign behind the podium.
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andy@climbingmoab
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 17, 2010 - 08:15pm PT
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Yup, just like Cuba after the Bay of Pigs. Oh wait...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Feb 17, 2010 - 08:17pm PT
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Yup, just like Cuba after the Bay of Pigs. Oh wait...
I'm curious what Andy would do in this case if he were in charge....
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Forest
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 17, 2010 - 08:21pm PT
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Fatty, i think you forgot that our military and our defense budget are already occupied elsewhere. Cleaning up those messes that your guy created.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Feb 17, 2010 - 08:25pm PT
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If we did anything military it would just give Chavez the chance to deflect blame from himself and direct it toward the U.S.
Chavez would like that, which is why he's practically asking for a good, First-World, Superpower Thrashing.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 17, 2010 - 11:26pm PT
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Any solution for Venezuela must almost certainly come from within. The country may well have to melt down, and I mean way down, before a true transformation takes place.
Many get lost in all the personality foibles (gran narcissism) and daft socicalist bunkum Chavez spews (don't give him a microphone or he'll be on it for like eight hours - no shite), but the more immediate threat might be the impending threat of a true energy crisis. There are already rolling blackouts and no water in major cities, sometimes for days at a time. My oldest daughter is down there righ now and she said, "It's like Africa."
JL
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andy@climbingmoab
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 18, 2010 - 10:35am PT
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bluering, i'd let the Venezuelans sort it out themselves. They will eventually. US intervention has done nothing positive in Latin America, and has made a lot of situations a whole lot worse. I've spent a lot of time in nearly every country in Central and South America, and from that i've figured out that what works here won't work there and vice versa.
I've also figured out that if Chile can sort out a political disaster largely created by the USA, perhaps the rest of Latin America can sort out their own problems without our help.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 18, 2010 - 10:59am PT
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Andy, I'm sure you know a lot about it from being there, but that doesn't mean your ideas are right.
Here's another way to look at it: I'm sure there lots of other people who spent just as much time in South America who would recommend the opposite of what you recommend.
So which one of you is right?
Fattrad may be on to something, I don't know.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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Feb 18, 2010 - 01:32pm PT
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We have the technology to kill anyone from above with drones.
Why do we not just start the killing - Iran, Venezuela, France.
Juan
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Feb 18, 2010 - 04:20pm PT
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For those who say that it's none of our business, what do you think our State Dept is for?
Who do you think will be expected to aid the country when the sh#t really hits the fan? Cuba? riiight...
It's not always a matter of 'do nothing' or 'bombs' either.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Feb 18, 2010 - 04:30pm PT
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Well, if the measure for intervention is governmental deadlock, absurd political rhetoric, an unsustainable and unjust economy, social inequity, and human rights violations, then the state department and military should start with the U.S.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 18, 2010 - 11:01pm PT
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I have heard it said that Iraq was basically the last time you will ever see an invasion of any kind of scale. This price is too high, and apparently no one at any think tank can fugure out any possible way to do so without bankrupting the country - even if we got ALL of Venezuelas oil.
What's more, the idea of an invasion is moronic. It has never happened between democracies, even fake democries like they have in Ven. And where would we start? Just roll into Caracas and start shooting? Sorties on Margarita Island and Valencia and Barquisimeto? Come on, the idea is preposerous. And none of our business, besides. Why MAKE it our business. That's old school right wing straight old white male thinking, and that's out of style. By all means, let our days of military meddling in South America be over.
Also, I've heard from credible sources that because invasion is no longer a viable option - no matter the "threat" - that the foreign countries know this and understand if things get too crazy out there, our response will be nuclear. For instance, if North Korea got crazy and started threatening everyone, nobody (especially China, says open source intel) is wasting money and men on the place, but they might chuck an a-bomb that way if it came to it. Scary shite.
One of the things that makes the new military strategy sketchy is that now that virtually every expert has ruled out future large scale ground wars as financially impossible, the nuclear response is the only option save actually leaving countries to simply melt down altogether. What will the war hawks suggest once countries start getting surly. Hawks usually swear that the only thing to do is go on the offensive to stop the imagined "threat." Do we go nuclear, now that old style invasion is no longer an option?
JL
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Feb 19, 2010 - 12:31am PT
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coz, quit trolling fattrad. You look weak, dude. make a point about the subject at hand or STFU.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 19, 2010 - 01:03am PT
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I don't know what you're reading, but there's plans for VZ, it wouldn't cost nearly as much as Iraq/Afghan.
----
I read a lot of open source intel. An American invasion - to anywhere - cannot be sold to congress. Every source says so. Also, how would you conduct one - like I asked, just invade Caracas and start shooting? That would never work. It's not doable.
JL
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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A Spanish judge has accused Chavez of using FARC and ETA to try to assassinate Uribe.
http://www.globovision.com/news.php?nid=141830
Translation
A Spanish judge believes there was "Venezuelan government cooperation" in the collaboration between ETA and the FARC, who were plotting to murder Colombian personalities in Spain, including President Alvaro Uribe, judicial sources said Monday.
Judge Eloy Velasco included in the indictment of six suspected members of ETA and seven of the FARC "show the Venezuelan government involvement in the unlawful collaboration between the FARC and ETA."
Velasco, judge of the Audiencia Nacional (Spanish main criminal tribunal) considers that this is particularly so in the case of suspected ETA member Arturo Cubillas Fontan, one of the defendants.
Cubillas is married since 1990 to the "Venezuelan Lataillade Goizeder Odriozola, who has held public office in the Venezuelan government of President Hugo Chavez, and was appointed in 2005 director within the Office of Management and Services of the Ministry of Agriculture and Venezuela's land," said the court order provided to AFP.
The alleged activist has been "responsible for the ETA group in that part of America since 1999, taking charge of coordinating relations with the FARC and the participation of members of ETA explosives and weapons workshops and dissemination techniques of urban guerrilla terrorist ", said judge Velasco.
Fontan is accused by Judge Velasco, along with members of the FARC Edgar Gustavo Navarro Ramon Vargas Morales and Victor Salazar, the "crime of conspiracy to commit terrorist murder."
Cuban Doctors are suing over slavery
http://english.eluniversal.com/2010/02/22/en_pol_esp_seven-cuban-doctors_22A3470091.shtml
What next?
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I know historical accuracy is frowned upon in these threads, but the Monroe Doctrine is that further European efforts to colonize countries in the western hemisphere would be deemed by the U.S. to be acts of aggression.
The last time it played much prominence was when, coincidentally, Venezuela refused to pay its debts to Germany, believing that Germany would be unable to do any thing about it because of the Monroe Doctrine. Germany called Venezuela's bluff and sent warships. To avert war with Germany, Teddy R added the Roosevelt Corollary to the doctrine, which basically was that dead beat countries could not rely on the U.S. to fend off European forces seeking to collect debts.
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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reading this.. reminds me of home......
its almost like John has seen the future of america:
And that's not mention the great rift between social classes and spending power, Homeric coruption, a largely self-absorbed and apathetic population, instutions that have been handed over to incompetants, grifters and slackers - and now the power is starting to go out (rolling black outs), the water is on and off, the banking sector is melting down, the military and police (mostly under Chavez' control) are starting to get tough with demonstrators, radio and TV stations are being shut down and on and on and on.
Something's got to give pretty soon.
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Binks
Social climber
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I'm no fan of Chavez, but if you right wingers want another war, raise taxes to pay for it. No more "war now pay later" crap. Say, a 50% tax increase on the highest tax bracket. I'd bet your militant idealogy can't even exist without massive deficit spending and robbing of the tax payers. The unpopularity of the wars would skyrocket so high it would be impossible if you make the people pay as you go. You'd better be happy with the massive heist of tax payer dollars you already pulled in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Binks, I ain't saying military action is required (yet). I would say that sanctioning his ass (like we wrongly did to Honduras) is a better bet, but then only the people in that country would suffer more than they already are.
Maybe if we offered to send USAID or the Army Corps of Engineers down there to build some more power plants. Using his oil money, of course.
Our skill, his money. Win-win.
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dirtbag
climber
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ack, that diatribe is unreadable.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 6, 2010 - 12:05pm PT
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The Chavez situaion has gotten so pitiful it's no longer even fun to talk about it - like listening to a lunatidc on a broken record. I'm afraid that the entire place will have to melt down before any change can occur.
JL
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Yeah, sorry to here about it, John.
Hang tough.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Mar 24, 2010 - 11:30am PT
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I hope it is safe to say that we won't be directly involved
so I'm thinking their only hope is a military coup. That
would probably be less traumatic than a general insurrection
and, of course, is a time-honored tradition there.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 21, 2014 - 05:50pm PT
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CNN is a CIA media store front and is 100% never ever trusted source from those in the know.
CNN is one of the worst lying news media around.
All the back channel units have known about Venezuela for a long time.
Obama and his zio fukhead henchmen are behind the whole shebang there to destabilize Venezuela as they are in the mideast.
Americans remain stupid as all hell to what's happening all over the planet .....
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Feb 21, 2014 - 06:29pm PT
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Close buds. A beaming Obama. Chavez's draconian dictatorial policies are now coming home to roost in Venezuela.
Obama admired and liked Chavez , as he does Castro , Che Guevara , and Saul Alinsky.
Wernerism applies in the case of politics . Americans are very stupid. Our economic hegemony and pampered lifestyle has shielded us thus far from our own stupidity.
The question is: will we ever reach a point in our own country in which our collective stupidity ,spoiled lassitude , and brain-dead acquiescence eventually leads to what we are now witnessing in Ukraine and Venezuela?
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John M
climber
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Feb 21, 2014 - 09:48pm PT
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My family has friends in Venezuela who are having to deal with this. I don't appreciate your bullshit tgt. There is nothing progressive about these thugs.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 21, 2014 - 09:53pm PT
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Just a PC name for a Marxist.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 21, 2014 - 09:57pm PT
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This regime has been the darling of the "progressive" left, just like Stalin, Castro, Che, and Mao in previous eras.
They are always surprised when it turns out this way.
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John M
climber
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Feb 21, 2014 - 09:58pm PT
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edited:
oh nonsense
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Feb 24, 2014 - 07:03pm PT
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http://www.defenseone.com/technology/2014/02/app-s-fueling-uprising-venezuela/79240/?oref=d-interstitial-continue
The lesson from the events in Tunisia in particular seemed to be that when you combine an educated student class with the power of social networks and press the return key, the outcome can be democracy. But when the machine malfunctions, the result can look like a protracted war with the potential to embroil U.S. forces. The protests in Libya, in contrast, resulted in a civil war costing more than $1 billion to the U.S. and NATO. When the machine breaks down completely, the result looks like Syria, or possibly Iran, where the regime has been extremely successful shutting the opposition out of the Internet.
To Moore, Venezuela looks like digital trench warfare with governments working feverishly to outmaneuver software makers and vice versa.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Feb 25, 2014 - 01:04am PT
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Today every citizen of Ukraine understands why our country has hundreds of thousands of policemen. Last illusions were crushed when riot police used rubber batons and boots at the Independence Square on peaceful citizens.
After such actions we realize that it is not enough to only adopt the Gun Law.
As of today Ukrainian Gun Owners Association will start to work on the preparation of amendments to the Constitution, which will provide an unconditional right for Ukrainian citizens to bear arms.
People should have the right to bear arms, which will be put in written into the Constitution.
Authorities should not and will not be stronger than its people!
Armed people are treated with respect!
http://zbroya.info/en/blog/2650_ukrainian-gun-owners-associations-official-statement/
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Feb 25, 2014 - 08:57am PT
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This is another ST political thread with too much smoke and not enough fire.
Why can't any ST political thread remain intelligent and rational? STPTs are just as stilted as our national political debates. Indeed, a perfect mirror.
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Bargainhunter
climber
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Feb 25, 2014 - 09:40am PT
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Nice pair of videos GDavis. Werner is right, Americans are stupid. Hilariously pathetic example of mainstream media. It is outrageous really, and insulting. But even more, it's sad to think how many millions watch and take it all in without questioning.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Feb 25, 2014 - 09:41am PT
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Breaking news: ST experts wrong as usual
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 25, 2014 - 11:18am PT
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I fail to see what yous guys are disagreeing about. The situation is clearly
going to get a lot worse before it gets better and it will make the Ukraine
look peaceful in comparison.
And just wait until Cristina really cocks it up in Argentina and the generals return.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Feb 26, 2014 - 12:23am PT
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While far removed from Venezuela, I see it this way:
Some as#@&%e capitalists came in and took too much without taking care of the locals.
The pendulum swung hard the other way and the socialists were rose to try and right the injustice.
Socalism quickly leads to decay.
Followed by failed revolution.
More corruption.
Eventually you get a criminal state like Russia.
Hopefully once the criminals get really rich for a few decades, they might start to feel safe enough to help form an more or less benign democracy like the USA.
The moral is; get rich, but make sure you share the wealth.
Social responsiblity prevents socialism.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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from the link
Cinco De Mayo usually brings drunken hysteria. Today in Venezuela it brings fighting between the National Guard and pro-Democracy University students.
wow National Guard shooting students. BTDT, so yesterday. Country is def gonna blow up.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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I blame Chavez. Somebody else blamed the free-market economy that ushered in the 'man of the people', Chavez.
That may be so, but it was misguided. The way to correct the exploitation of a free-market is to regulate those exploits. That is what we did.
We had unions, occupational laws, and monopoly legislation. It takes a bit of work, but works pretty damn well. It's a dynamic evolution. People always come up with ways to exploit the system.
The government should not be running everything, it's function is to be a referee so that all play on a level playing field. The gov't should not be picking winners and losers.
Chavez ruined Venezuela. But I do have hope for their future. They tasted Socialism, they chose to spit it out.
Where's ST's man-on-the-street down there, Largo?
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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What the hell does cinco de mayo have to do with Venezuela?
It's a MEXICAN holiday celebrating a short lived victory by Mexican Forces over the French, who were marching on Mexico City. Do we celebrate the Queen's birthday or the battle of Bannockburn?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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In Venezuela they start off with International Workers' Day and just keep rolling.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Maybe a reporter who doesn't know what country he's in. Here are the holidays in May.
May 1 Día del Trabajador Labor Day
May 3 Día del Cruz del Mayo Fiesta de las Cruces Honors the Holy Cross of May in the states of Miranda and Aragua as its patrons
Second Sunday of May (movable) Dia de las Madres Mother's Day Honors all mothers
May 25 Dia del Himno Nacional National Anthem Day Not a public holiday. Honors the Venezuelan National Anthem, Gloria al Bravo Pueblo, on the day of the 1881 presidential decree conferring its official status as the national anthem.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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The way to correct the exploitation of a free-market is to regulate those exploits. That is what we did.
Yeah, and that's how the banks got 3 trillion for free from you.
( I read that eating dinner and blew peas out my nose)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Well, Lorenzo, that was just wrong...and the start of the Tea Party revolt against this kind of bullsh#t.
We do make mistakes.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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May 30, 2017 - 08:39am PT
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Well now. Goldman Sachs just had to confess to buying 2.8 Billion dollars worth of "steeply discounted" Venezuelan government bonds.
I must assume U.S. policy now will switch over to supporting the thugs currently in power in Venezuela, so Goldman Sachs can make money on their investment.
After all: "The business of the U.S. is business."
"And what's good for Goldman Sachs is good for America."
The leader of Venezuela's National Assembly has threatened that a later government may refuse to pay $2.8 billion in bonds that Goldman Sachs recently purchased from the country's central bank.
"It is apparent Goldman Sachs decided to make a quick buck off the suffering of the Venezuelan people," Julio Borges, the leader of the opposition-controlled congress, said in a letter dated on Monday to Goldman CEO Lloyd Blankfein.
"Given the irregular nature of this transaction and the absurd financial terms involved that are to the detriment of Venezuela and its people, the National Assembly will soon launch an investigation into the matter. I also intend to recommend to any future democratic government of Venezuela not to recognize or pay on these bonds," Borges wrote.
The terms of the bond deal, reported this week by the Wall Street Journal, citing people familiar with the transaction, called for Goldman to pay around $865 million for $2.8 billion in bonds issued by the state oil company Petroleos de Venezuela, or PDVSA, in 2014, maturing in 2022, working out to around 31 cents on the dollar and implying an annual yield above 40 percent.
Borges said the deal offered a "financial lifeline" to President Nicolas Maduro's regime, which has been accused using violence against frequent protests. http://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/29/venezuelan-opposition-threatens-country-wont-pay-goldman-sachs-2-point-8-billion-bond-deal.html
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