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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 25, 2009 - 03:39pm PT
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Santa Claus brought me a number 2 for being a good boy.
My first piece of new gear in a coons age.
I love that freekin' terminator bionicle machine!
Thanks to Dingus for the review and the pic!
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perswig
climber
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Dec 25, 2009 - 03:48pm PT
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I've got a 1 on my rack.
Sure it slips into all sorts of nooks and crannies, but I take a little extra moment when placing it to make sure I've minimized the torque likely to happen if/when it's weighted.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Dec 25, 2009 - 04:01pm PT
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I've had two on my rack for a year now (purchased because I was 8 hours from home and forgot half the rack, but that's another story...).
I like them a lot. I've found one favorite use for them: clip them on the back of the harness to use for the belay (if you don't know what gear it takes). Gives a great range of options. Of course they're nice on lead too, but maybe not quite so easy to place quickly.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 25, 2009 - 04:13pm PT
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I've become a real fan of Link Cams, thanks to Kate, who has quite a few of all the sizes, including the two new smaller sizes.
At first glance, they seem a bit klunky, but they really aren't. Their main benefit is their unbelievable camming range - a real "panic piece" that the free climbers must love. Surprisingly, because of their many points of contact with so many lobes all over the place, they sometimes fit better than other traditional cams.
Aid climbers [at least on easier aid] love them for "crack jugging". As Camalots were to Friends - a bit heavier but a bigger camming range - so are Link Cams to Camalots.
The main drawback is the high price - pretty expensive. They used to have a design flaw whereby the wire stems would break. You could send them back and have them fixed for free, but it was a PITA. I should think by now this design flaw has been fixed - does anyone know? - and the stems no longer break. However we broke at least one on Octopussy.
Hey, where's Kate? I haven't heard from her in months. She's the one who can tell you the most about these things. Have you seen her around, Russ? You did get my prototype ledge back off her, right? Man, those "under the ledge daisies" are ETS!
If I could afford to buy a set of Link Cams - there are now four sizes - I would. Probably Omega Pacific's best product.
Cheers,
"Dr. Piton"
And Merry Christmas, eh?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 25, 2009 - 05:27pm PT
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I am so glad to see positive comments.
My first instinct is that I LOVE the thing.
But when I think about all the ST folks who might have used them and found their weaknesses, I had to hold my breath a bit.
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Erik Sloan
climber
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Dec 25, 2009 - 05:31pm PT
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Pete's analogy of LC's being like Camalots where to Friends, a little heavier but a bigger camming range is dead on.
I started with two of the biggest size, great for crack juggin up the Nose.
Now I've got two ea of all sizes. They get stuck easy if you're thrashing around like I do, so watch it when they get close to over-cammed.
I also agree with Pete that they shine where you wouldn't necessarily expect: when the crack is dirty or wobbly the many cams provide amazing contact/security where you would otherwise stick in a piece and have the rock flake off a little and have to put in a bigger piece.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Dec 25, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
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I have two sets Survival. I love them. Really made well, the real deal, insane range, no problems so far. Agreed, they are maybe the next generation of cam rather than just some tangential novelty.
Had we had them back in the sixties, they would have been rejected by nearly everyone back then. The thought would have been they were machines, really, way too complicated, and what was wrong with just banging in a pin, you know. But today, general acceptance and widespread immediate use.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 25, 2009 - 06:33pm PT
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They work as advertised, but the design, relative to current material science, is fragile. They should never be placed off axis to the weighting vector if falling on the cam will rotate it. In other words, never let them rotate under load - the linkages are too fragile and break when sideways loads are placed on them. Avoid such placements and they'll deliver on the advantages of the design. Ignore that advice and you'll experience the disadvantages of the design.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Dec 25, 2009 - 06:44pm PT
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I have one
Two thumbs up
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Slakkey
Big Wall climber
From Back to Big Wall Baby
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Dec 25, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
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Survival,
I added a #2 to my rack back in Sep. I agree with Pete and Erik, I like the range it has. would like to try other sizes as well. As Pete points out though a bit pricey. In time i could see using more of them Agree with Nature 2 thumbs up
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Dec 25, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
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I saw one of them, all broken up and stuck in the crack? Do they get stuck easily? I didn't look closely but I thought it had broken at one of the links or axles. All those moving parts scare me.
Anybody else?
Arne
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Dec 25, 2009 - 07:53pm PT
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I have one. I like it, but you do need to be careful loading them over edges.
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Holdplease2
Big Wall climber
Yosemite area
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Dec 25, 2009 - 10:35pm PT
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I don't carry anything else on my rack except for some nuts, a blue alien and a green alien. Once in a while a red.
The design flaw has been fixed. The trigger wires used to be just a pin stuck 1/2 inch into plastic, what were they thinking? Now its a metal rod through a plastic housing/trigger and its the bomb.
I have a set of tripples and hardly even use offset aliens or aliens on walls anymore in pin scars or wobbly small cracks. Just jam a link cam in and go. Which is why I am so wicked fast, I'm sure.
Back when I free climbed more I went up two letter grades in a weekend because they turn crack climbing into sport climbing. When it is impossible to pull the wrong piece of gear off the rack and rudimentarily knowledge of gear placement is enough to get a good placement anywhere, all the time you used to spend futzing, choosing, and worrying about gear can be used on getting the hell out of there and to a rest or the top.
Link cams are beyond awesome. If you want to get one for a starter piece, get the one with the size you're weakest in...thin hands? get red. fingers and smaller? get purple. Rattly fingers? Get green. You will love it.
-Kate.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 25, 2009 - 10:38pm PT
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Gave one each of the two biggies to Mari last Christmas. Didn't know how they'd work out, but we wound up loving them. So one each of the two smaller sizes were her birthday gift.
I'm sure Joseph is right about the need to be careful about how they'll load in a fall, but after a year of using them, we're hooked.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Top of the 5.2-5.12 Boulder
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Dec 25, 2009 - 10:55pm PT
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I've climbed with them a little. A friend has a set.
They're pretty cool.
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Michael D
Big Wall climber
Sorrento Mesa
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Dec 25, 2009 - 11:18pm PT
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Have a couple of the yellow and red sizes. They excel at being the pieces you'd want to save for the belay. Never used them in 'panic mode', and don't think I'd grab for one either, they can be strange to place. You know, kinda strange in a general sort of way.
You'll love them!
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 25, 2009 - 11:26pm PT
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They'll probably get you killed in the Gunks. But even in a vertical crack, if something about the placement prevents them from aligning with the load, watch out, because you sure don't want to torque those little linky parts.
Statement from Michael Lane from Omega Pacific on rc.com August 2, 2009.
Begin quote:
Link Cams are specialty pieces and have held up well for hundreds or thousands of climbers since we introduced them. They are, however, vulnerable to damage and failure if subjected to torsional loading that requires the relationship of the head/axle and the rock to change much during a fall, especially if the placement is bottoming or loads the lower-end linkages to be stressed over any kind of edge or intrusion. This isn't a surprise,really ... the fact that their lobes consist of hinged components when other cams are made of a single piece of material made this an obvious characteristic from the start.
Bottom line is that the technology that provides Link Cams their greatest benefit (range) is also what introduces their clearest limitation (durability during weird loads).
We're doing a couple things to address this:
1) We're looking at new link designs that strengthen the hinges to make them stronger.
and
2) We'll be rewriting our literature to emphasize proper placement of Link Cams with a clear warning about the potential consequences of placing them in ways they could be subject to damage.
Both these changes are in effect now.
Link Cams are safe, but they must be placed in direction of pull and in a manner that eliminates the likelihood of the cam rotating during a load. They are ideal pieces, but not necessarily for every placement you come across. Do we like this? Nah. I wish they were as bombproof as the burliest piece of gear you can imagine ... and we're working on how to get as close to that ideal as possible ... but the truth is they'll always be a specialty piece.
End quote
Ignoring this advice can result in:
or
Surprisingly, because of their many points of contact with so many lobes all over the place, they sometimes fit better than other traditional cams.
when the crack is dirty or wobbly the many cams provide amazing contact/security
Because of the hinges linking the cams, I don't think that any of the retracted cams below the engaged ones can contribute much to holding power.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 26, 2009 - 12:05am PT
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The design flaw has been fixed. The trigger wires used to be just a pin stuck 1/2 inch into plastic, what were they thinking? Now its a metal rod through a plastic housing/trigger and its the bomb.
That's not the design issues I was speaking of.
Bottomline - there currently is no material known to man you could use for the cam lobe segments that would not be fragile in the face of lateral pressures. As rgold just posted up, do not allow these babies to rotate while loaded or you will blow cam lobe linkages.
That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with Link Cams per se - the design delivers on its promised range - but the design also introduces an unavoidable weakness in the linkages. Work within the boundaries of that design limitation and they're great.
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adatesman
Trad climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 26, 2009 - 12:21am PT
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A while back Healyje sent me one for destruction and was able to snap each of the linkages rather easily (~120#, IIRC) by unfurling them and applying a sideways load (like would happen if placed on the low end of the expansion and the linkage got caught on a crystal). I don't recall if it was here or on RC, but I recall he summed it up quite well with Link Cams being rather like a knee... Quite strong in the direction it's supposed to be loaded in, but not so good in the other. So yeah, making sure that they're aligned with the load is a very good thing.
BTW, OP is aware of the issue and according to a post from Michael Lane @ OP on RC a couple months back they're looking at possibly making changes to the materials or cross-sectional thicknesses to help address this issue. He also said they'd be adding a warning to the instructions, but I haven't heard whether this happened or not.
-a.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 26, 2009 - 12:31am PT
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Links are great!
One comment on the 'panic piece' idea though...
The links contract past what the trigger will pull. This means that if you retract the trigger and lobes, put the cam in the crack, and shove it deeper, you can push the cam past what the trigger will retrieve. Basically, easy to overcam. This is more noticeable on the Links than any other cam I have used, and can be a real challenge to clean, because the stretched out linkages are in the way of futzing with your nut tool.
But, once you use them a little bit you get used to their style and they are terrific. I've cheated a lot of cruxes by plugging one quickly.
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