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apogee
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
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Yeah, this thread does feel like a rc.noob thread, no doubt- sorry to have contributed to it & prolonged it.
I was using it as a sounding board for the irritation that has been building in me from encounters with inexperienced noobs with dogmatic, monochromatic views of how to do things. The worst offenders are noobs that have been climbing ~2-4 years, and have just about enough knowledge to kill themselves and others, and spray their 'infinite wisdom' at will. (End Rant/)
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:44pm PT
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Yes, it really is a waste of time and "hard drive space" to discuss the configuration, construction, and usership of the modern climbing harness, can't think of much less relevant on a site like this; after all the outdoor bingedusty has provided the automatons with the "ultimate" way, no need to look further, no need to re-examine and gain concensus... that might mean there's room for improvement...
Yeah, this thread does feel like a rc.noob thread, no doubt- sorry to have contributed to it & prolonged it.
Ray and Apogee, I couldn't agree less, and Ray's own quote argues powerfully against such a claim. How exactly does one avoid the imposition of the "ultimate" way, how does one "look further," "re-examine" and "gain concensus" in a vacuum without discussion?
In climbing as well as in almost every knowledge-intensive pursuit, the critical ingredient, at least for me, in achieving genuine competence and facility is discussion. Without discussion all we have are the manufacturer's cartoon specification sheets, without so much as a shred of supporting reasoning, and our own conclusions, based on experience which, even if we think it is extensive, is a mere drop in the communal pool.
Personally, almost everything I know about climbing procedures has been shaped by discussions with others, and I can't begin to count how many opinions and approaches I've modified after encountering perspectives I'd never thought of myself. Sure, discussion, as a human endeavor, can be frustrating and sometimes pointless. But it is a rare one that has nothing of value in it somewhere.
Unlike some other places, there a lot of experience concentrated here. Far from such discussions being irrelevant "on a site like this," this is a place where one is likely to find the best in informed opinion, rather than the dogmatic views of inexperienced self-proclaimed "experts."
That said, there are also plenty of us who have been doing things the same way forever and haven't thought for years why it is that we do what we do. I don't find, "it worked for me for forty years," more or less convincing than the manufacturer's dictum, presumably researched and tested, on how to use their gear. I've always believed in having reasons for what you do, and the fact that this or that approach has failed to kill you or me in forty years really doesn't prove anything. I can see no harm in emerging from a potentially deadly complacence every now and then to defend our practices and hear from others why they think we've got it wrong.
Considering the extravagant amount of hard drive space on this site devoted to fluff and irrelevancies---albeit compelling fluff and irrelevancies---I'd say there's ought to be a bit of room left over for discussions like this about core climbing practices. There are fewer than 100 responses here at this point, compared to 14,800 for the wrongness of Republicans, more than 4,600 for the flight of creationists, nearly 3,000 for "What Song Are You Listening to Now," and many other threads far too numerous to mention.
Waste, I suppose, is in the eye of the beholder. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
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Gilwad
climber
Frozen In Somewhere
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:57pm PT
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If you're belaying me with a carabiner threaded through your leg loops and waist loop instead of the belay loop I'd sure appreciate it if you used a nice big steel 'biner. Probably just fine with an aluminum one too, but a steel one would make me feel happier. Why do something that is virtually guaranteed to put the load across the 'biner's horizontal axis to some degree? And makes the belay/rap device run at 90 to the rope's direction, thereby kinking it some more?
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Dec 21, 2009 - 01:12pm PT
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the only one forcing dogma is the dude thats constantly piping in on every thread he deems 'inappropriate' or 'a waste.' We don't need no policing, apogee. If people want to talk about it, its topical by definition.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 21, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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I mostly now belay using the belay loop, but have noticed that given that the carabiner is 'loose' on the loop, it often ends up being cross-loaded. That is, you start with belay loop, carabiner and belay device in a nice line, but when the system relaxes as you take in or pay out rope, it's quite easy for the carabiner to end up loaded sideways. So I suspect that in terms of cross-loading, or three-point loading, one must be equally attentive with either method to avoid it. Whether it's a real problem, in terms of the physics, is another matter.
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apogee
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 01:31pm PT
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At the risk of thread-drift (and with no intent), I find it interesting how any time someone raises an objection to the # of OT threads, the common response is 'no ST police', 'no censorship', 'I'll post anything I want to', etc.
GD, I'll state it again: I have no problem with OT threads, in fact I support the position that this is a 'Climber's Forum', not a 'Forum about Climbing'. I only suggest that, as fortunate, common users of a great resource like this, that we give some consideration to others who come to this site for what it was originally designed for (and is known for). It's about balance and respect, that's all.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 21, 2009 - 02:54pm PT
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I have no doubt whatsoever the combined might of ST will solve the belay loop question once and for all, just as it has the evolution and gods questions. Perhaps the origins of the belay loop should enter into it - intelligent design or survival of the fittest?
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apogee
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 02:54pm PT
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"But you're not saying this thread is OT, right?"
No, not at all...the issue of OT and respect for other users has simply trickled into this thread.
It's interesting how someone will post a question to ST, and sometimes they get slapped down immediately and referred to rc.com as a noob, and sometimes the responses are genuine and useful. It seems to have something to do with the manner in which the OP poses the question, and by sheer luck according to who happens to respond first.
I still think it's a little odd to cut off one's belay loop, especially if it's because you don't trust it: contemporary harness have bomber loops, and if one exercises reasonable care in using it properly (avoid nylon/nylon girth hitching, etc.), and inspects & retires it reasonably, adding redundant back-up loops seems pretty odd to me, too.
Removing it out of personal preference, and not safety concerns, because you have a preference for a particular use or function in the harness is just that...personal preference. I wouldn't remove it, but to each his own.
Edit to atch: Touche.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 21, 2009 - 03:07pm PT
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I didn't say he was a noob, I was suggesting that topics like this are more the provence of RC.com where they will receive both a wide audience of beginners and intermediates and will still benefit from rgold and others' experienced input as well. There are also a 184 pages of belay loop discussion over there and this is a classic rabbit hole discussion right up there with 'figure eight or bowline?' threads.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 21, 2009 - 03:13pm PT
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"Do you really believe the opposing side is in danger???? Really?"
KilledTodd....
Nice Iggy, Apogee.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Dec 21, 2009 - 04:37pm PT
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I was thinking, lots of times you/we get so ingrained with a way of doing something that it really IS hard to change. I try regular locking carabiners ever so often, but never remember to lock them after years of using auto-lockers. Once a year or so I try a Gri Gri and it frustrates the hell out of me because I'm not used to it, and I'm so dialed into my BRD. I really do need to master the Gri Gri someday...
So everybody has there preferred way of doing the belaying/rappelling thang; I'm sure it all works just fine. But Strongerdog, that does not mean I'm letting you off the hook! You are still doing it all wrong!
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Khoi
climber
Vancouver, BC
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Dec 21, 2009 - 04:44pm PT
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I reckon in a few decades almost all of the really "old school" climbers who started climbing before belay loops came on the scene will have phased out, and this debate will [mostly] be a chucked in the dustbin.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Dec 21, 2009 - 08:28pm PT
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Haha! Well put...
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Dec 21, 2009 - 08:37pm PT
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The belay loop is great for stashing the next piece of pro to be placed....
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scuffy b
climber
Whuttiz that Monstrosicos Inferno?
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Dec 21, 2009 - 08:49pm PT
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If you need that locking biner to keep the harness together, that means
you'll have a big metal object right next to your pubic bone whenever
you get into a tight spot.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Dec 21, 2009 - 09:57pm PT
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Ew, there is another good point! I've always been amazed at how many climbers (including some of my closest friends) climb with the belay device/locking carabiner attached to the front of their harness...whether attached to the belay loop, or the harness tie-in points. I have to admit that this is quicker than ever moving it, like to the back of the harness like I do. But it would drive me nuts having that thing in my crotch while climbing! Ah, personal preference once again...
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