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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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If California Government had it's sh#t together, it wouldn't matter where the people here came from, or whether they were papered.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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"Common sense is that sixth sense that tells you the world is flat." Dan O'Neill, as told in Odd Bodkins.
If this is an example of common sense, please give me uncommon sense. Taxing businesses is about the best way I know to impose a tax whose individual incidence is unknown. Who pays, say, Chevron's income tax? Its shareholders? Its employees? Its customers? Tell me, since you know.
In fact, such indirect taxes as corporate income taxes, value added taxes and the like are popular among those whose living depends on collecting taxes precisely because they can hide the amount people pay.
Then there's that wonderful line that water goes to crops and not people. Just who consumes those crops? I suppose in her belabored mind, all people should get an equal allotment of water. That way the farmer and the lawyer have exactly the same amount of water. Hey, it may not be intelligent, but it's equal so it must be fair.
If someone really wants real common sense for California, they'll stop making proposals that put all the pain on someone else and none for themselves. I'm sorry but that article serves as a good prototype for why California remains ungovernable and self-destructive.
John
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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If we're all going to get the same ammount of water, how about we all pay the exact same ammount (not rate) of taxes?
If it costs $25,000 per American to run the country, we each should have to pay $25,000 every year. No deductions. No exceptions.
Your family of four is costing the Country $100,000 a year, and it's time you paid your fair share.
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Ray Olson
Trad climber
Imperial Beach, California
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Chaz,
I'm pretty much in the dark on a lot
of this stuff, but your comment on state
goverment sure rings true.
clearly its skewed, in favor of guess who?
wish I had something to add...
word on the street is, theft related crime is way up.
and as we all know, the meth problem is bigger than ever:
"epidemic" is probably about right.
in San Diego they over built to the point of freeway gridlock.
now people compare SD to LA, loosly of course.
I was gone for over ten years, modest home in chula vista
going for .5 mil?
amazing...
hope the next governor can help get small business and stuff
going, cause what I see is a real need for jobs. for sure.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Okay, this is my first politics related post. The government oriented unions in Cali are sending us down the pike. Pay, pension and health care plans for government unions are out of whack with the people paying the taxes. It would be great if we could all have these perks, but the private tax payer is being heavily leaveraged to support government union perks. That is why Cali is losing private businesses. They and their employees can no longer afford the largess in Cali public spending that is out of control and has no comprehension of fiscal responsibility to the taxpaying public.
Then again, it does not really matter. The conservatives take our money and give it to the wealthy; the liberals take it and give it to the poor. Both parties have created a beauracracy that squanders the money. Either way, the taxes we pay get sucked out of the system and never support the causes they are supposed to be used for. The waste and graft is rampant. It makes me sick the way the politicos of either party have no concern for the taxpayers. Once uopn a time the elected officials worked for the electorate; now the tables are turned.
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The Wedge
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Just in the last few years, has it been that The Owen's Valley is seeing 50% OR MORE water than they LA takes. It only took a 100 YEARS for this to happen.
Now they just pump more ground water!
And now they want to set up solor panel on dried up OWENS lake. Imagine what that would look like from the TOP OF MT WHITNEY!
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Ray Olson
Trad climber
Imperial Beach, California
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another "drop in" post
when the subject of socal Gangs comes up,
my feeling are that there is a wide range
of stuff that falls under that topic, or word,
a "spectrum" if you will.
so, referring to the "worst expression"
of the problem, what are Gangs?
to me, Gangs are an expression of real
human suffering and pain.
period.
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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"He was shocked that a nation powerful enough to conquer his people couldn't or wouldn't feed its own future. The white man was good at production, he concluded, but bad at distribution."
Statements like that show a huge amount of ignorance. He (Sitting Bull) never considered in that statement that this nation, that was powerful enough to conquer his people, got that way by not feeding it's own future. Everything is related and you don't cut back on military and feed people without something changing drastically. I won't say it's good or bad but it would change things and this would be a different country with different problems.
The article and general liberal point of view that cutting military spending to feed people will not have dire consequences. Again, I am fairly liberal and don't think it be a problem would but it's just unintelligent to not consider what a change of that nature would do to us as a nation.
Dave
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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JohnTP......
agree 100%.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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California's lack of common sense is evidenced in the fact that the state government, measured by revenue taken in, grew in size by 40% during Arnold's tenure as Governor.
And as usual California leads the way - now the Federal Government is heading down the same road.
I would say hide your wallet but unfortunately that doesn't help. They take the money before it gets to your wallet. Then they spend more than they took.
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rotten johnny
Social climber
mammoth lakes, ca
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so now the state of california is going to take more out of the workers paychecks....once again it seems that the people who can least afford it are once again asked to give more while gas , medical and the cost of living keeps rising.....LEB ....have you taken a pay cut in these tough times....? .......when are the people that don't have to suffer , the rich going to start sharing in the pain.....teachers being laid off and their pay chopped.....when are the politicians going to finally take a pay cut , after all , they are the ones responsible for this mess...? i also read an article stating that taxes on the corporations in california are not the highest in the US....so go ahead and move to some other state with a cloudy , cold miserable climate.....the trickle down theory is just more burgoise brainwashing to oppress the working class...if capitalism is so wonderful , how come it has fallen flat on it's face....? capitalism use to work until the rich legislated and maipulated it into oblivion to benefit the ruling class....if the ruling class doesn't want to pay the workers a livable wage let's just have socialism where people can be on th dole and get free medical care....isn't that what we are on the brink of...? oh , i forgot , the rich only get rich by exploiting the hell out of other humans...
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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rotten,
You state "i also read an article stating that taxes on the corporations in california are not the highest in the US." Did you read my earlier post asking who pays those taxes? If you know, I'd be curious to know how you know.
John
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Reisner was right.
We have managed things poorly all the way down the line.
It is time to void the Colorado River Compact and reallocate far more conservatively.
There has to be a price for use, not a motive to abuse.
But I always laugh when people whine about how much water agriculture gets.
Ask them where their food comes from and they'll say the supermarket.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Peter,
great article and i agree 100%.
Too much money and power is in the hands of the few for the few. 1% of our population controls 90% of our wealth!
keep up the good fight...
Kurt
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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It just keeps getting worse. We're looking at billions for new water projects to subsidize water delivery to corporate empires we already subsidize.
the final deal stripped the bill of provisions intended to prevent illegal diversions and black-market selling.
the starting price tag is $10billion, but that's only a fraction of the expected cost.
http://www.capitolweekly.net/article.php?xid=ye2jqnrstop449
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Skip, you're talking about this passage?
My friend Derek Hitchcock, a biologist working to restore the Yuba River, likes to say that California is still a place of abundance. He recently showed me a Pacific Institute report and other documents to bolster his point. They show that about 80% of the state's water goes to agriculture, not to people, and half of that goes to four crops -- cotton, rice, alfalfa and pasturage (irrigated grazing land) -- that produce less than 1% of the state's wealth. Forty percent of the state's water. Less than 1% of its income.
The key numbers-- 80% of all water used in California goes to agriculture, and roughly half of that goes to cotton, rice, alfalfa and pasturage --are basically accurate. The variations I see on those numbers are fairly small.
Solnit's writing is usually simple, pretty much aimed at a 10th-grade reading level, and that's why it can appear in a newspaper. You're not going to get rigorous, scholarly work.
Anyone looking for the best rigorous introduction to California's water politics should begin with Norris Hundley, The Great Thirst.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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If you want to claim that 80 percent of all the water in California goes to "agriculture" feel free.
The rest of us know this statement is absurd.
The consensus figures usually range from 75-83%. Historically, the figure was higher, but it has declined in recent years as agricultural land has gone out of production. The figures are generally higher in the other arid western states. Again, you can see Hundley for the historical data.
http://www.amazon.com/Great-Thirst-Californians-Water-History/dp/0520224566/ref=pd_sim_b_1
This remains the single best book on the topic. It's cautious, judicious, exhaustively researched, avoids the sort of over-simplification and partisan ranting you can find on op-ed pages or on the websites of the various lobbyists and special interests.
Kahrl's California Water Atlas does a good job of illustrating the general water transfers.
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Maysho
climber
Soda Springs, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2009 - 11:22am PT
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The report she indirectly cites is found here: http://www.pacinst.org/reports/california_agriculture/index.htm
The Pacific Institute is a great source for information and more importantly solid solutions to grow the agricultural sector while increasing water efficiency.
Peter
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rotten johnny
Social climber
mammoth lakes, ca
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jelezarian..yes i get your your point , and agree with your who is going to pay the tax comments....i read your posting ........i'm not for reaming the rich or for excessive taxes on anybody and my point is that if the poor and middle class have jobs that pay a living wage , they will put that money back into circulation and keep capitalism rolling.....i think it just gets back to mayshos's point that the redistribution isn't working...rotten
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